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Thread: Ni egos vs Se in close relationship

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    Default Ni egos vs Se in close relationship

    Or whatever it is...I noticed all my "close" or at least "close-ish" relationships have been with Ni egos (other than ESIs, they are the only other type). Both Beta and Gamma Ni.

    And so when I've known the Ni ego long enough and we got into some track or routine I don't know bc I see this pretty vaguely, and then one day I make a sudden change and I want to ask for something bigger, then there's always this problem, like they try to get around it and won't even discuss but they prefer to try and disappear.

    Now I know from my readings of Socionics articles that that's a pattern for such people. Kinda fight the assertiveness and demands and even some aggression with passivity and distancing and disappearing. "Avoid collision with the problematic object" or whatever, lol. Plain avoiding the demand too. Or sometimes outright passive aggression but they like to deny that, more lol...

    I mean these conflicts did eventually come to an end one way or the other. Usually it required me upping the anger and aggression or taking enough direct action to the point where they just had to respond, or literally physically couldn't avoid me, and then we got into the discussion & into the conflict properly.

    I want to know though from the Ni egos here about how it really works for them.... Is there anything else that works in these cases? Like anything that works faster? Bc I sometimes do have enough of this, lol. Esp don't want it in the truly "close" relationships.

    I've also heard it from more than one Ni type that they feel so stressed or overloaded etc etc and to me it always feels like an excuse bc like how can you be so stressed over such a small thing??? To me it's small, lol. The ESIs don't ever make that excuse for sure. Se rocks right?.....

    So anyway. Yeah. Is this a real concern for them or it's just an attempt at bullshitting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Or whatever it is...I noticed all my "close" or at least "close-ish" relationships have been with Ni egos (other than ESIs, they are the only other type). Both Beta and Gamma Ni.

    And so when I've known the Ni ego long enough and we got into some track or routine I don't know bc I see this pretty vaguely, and then one day I make a sudden change and I want to ask for something bigger, then there's always this problem, like they try to get around it and won't even discuss but they prefer to try and disappear.

    Now I know from my readings of Socionics articles that that's a pattern for such people. Kinda fight the assertiveness and demands and even some aggression with passivity and distancing and disappearing. "Avoid collision with the problematic object" or whatever, lol. Plain avoiding the demand too. Or sometimes outright passive aggression but they like to deny that, more lol...

    I mean these conflicts did eventually come to an end one way or the other. Usually it required me upping the anger and aggression or taking enough direct action to the point where they just had to respond, or literally physically couldn't avoid me, and then we got into the discussion & into the conflict properly.

    I want to know though from the Ni egos here about how it really works for them.... Is there anything else that works in these cases? Like anything that works faster? Bc I sometimes do have enough of this, lol. Esp don't want it in the truly "close" relationships.

    I've also heard it from more than one Ni type that they feel so stressed or overloaded etc etc and to me it always feels like an excuse bc like how can you be so stressed over such a small thing??? To me it's small, lol. The ESIs don't ever make that excuse for sure. Se rocks right?.....

    So anyway. Yeah. Is this a real concern for them or it's just an attempt at bullshitting?
    Ok, I have Ni in my ego block and while I can't speak for everyone, I can say that I spend a huge amount of time inside my head running future scenarios on present situations.

    Sort of like IBM's Deep Blue beating the human chess champions by methodically running every available chess move into it's multiply branching future, 1000 moves in advance.

    And every tiny fact matters in projecting the future. "She wore a violet blouse and white shorts on our date. That means she is interested in sex but doesn't have a lot of experience and wants to stay pure for now."

    So, @grumpyvic81, your Ni-egos have taken in all the facts that you presented them with, and they have walked a path into the future (now present) with you based on what you presented to them because they see that as an acceptable path, and then you change things and they withdraw.

    You may have shown them something that leads to a future that is unacceptable to them.

    Which is an elaborate way of saying that they don't want to go there. I don't think they are bullshitting at all. Not at all.

    *EDIT*
    As for Ni-egos not wanting to discuss the problem and instead, simply disappearing, they by definition have low Se and are not great at real world actions or confrontations. I think that an Ni-ego, once they see that something is not going to work out, consider the problem to be similar to turning a steam locomotive into a cloud of butterflies. Not gonna happen, no point in discussing it, I'm onto some other path now, good luck.

    I believe that close relationships are built on each person valuing the things they get from the other person that make their lives better, and ignoring the things that aren't so good. But everyone has a different point at where they draw the line between the tolerable and the intolerable.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 10-13-2020 at 04:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Ok, I have Ni in my ego block and while I can't speak for everyone, I can say that I spend a huge amount of time inside my head running future scenarios on present situations.

    Sort of like IBM's Deep Blue beating the human chess champions by methodically running every available chess move into it's multiply branching future, 1000 moves in advance.

    And every tiny fact matters in projecting the future. "She wore a violet blouse and white shorts on our date. That means she is interested in sex but doesn't have a lot of experience and wants to stay pure for now."

    So, @grumpyvic81, your Ni-egos have taken in all the facts that you presented them with, and they have walked a path into the future (now present) with you based on what you presented to them because they see that as an acceptable path, and then you change things and they withdraw.

    You may have shown them something that leads to a future that is unacceptable to them.

    Which is an elaborate way of saying that they don't want to go there. I don't think they are bullshitting at all. Not at all.
    Thanks, that makes some sense, but I still think it's bullshitting because how is it so fucking stressful to just go and discuss with me to find out if they misinterpreted something about this projected future maybe?? Or find a compromise with me??

    To me it's just plain fuckin' immature.


    *EDIT*
    As for Ni-egos not wanting to discuss the problem and instead, simply disappearing, they by definition have low Se and are not great at real world actions or confrontations. I think that an Ni-ego, once they see that something is not going to work out, consider the problem to be similar to turning a steam locomotive into a cloud of butterflies. Not gonna happen, no point in discussing it, I'm onto some other path now, good luck.
    You may have misunderstood because I was not talking about them dumping the whole relationship. That's usually me, not them, lol.

    So no it's more like they just hope I drop the particular thing or something because they are not ending the entire relationship otherwise.

    Also it's really narrow-minded imo to not even consider the possibility that I could say or do something else that will change that one projected future path they are imagining.


    I believe that close relationships are built on each person valuing the things they get from the other person that make their lives better, and ignoring the things that aren't so good. But everyone has a different point at where they draw the line between the tolerable and the intolerable.
    Like I said this isn't about that.

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    If I were in that position and acting the way you describe the Ni-egos, that probably indicates that I have been feeling wary about the relationship for quite some time. Someone putting pressure on me actually deters me even further and worst case, I can emotionally shortcuit and kind of *lose my mind* for a time if I feel rushed into emotional intimacy. I don't react kindly to people forcing a certain level of intimacy on me... It usually backfires. I have had two people force things with me: an EIE and a LSI. I am on good terms with the EIE after 3 years of friction. But I became the LSI's worst nightmare...lol.

    Ni-egos have their reasons for being guarded and if you force it, things tend to implode. Beta NFs need a set behavioral pattern to work off of before getting "closer" to people. If we feel someone seems too erratic or doesn't make sense, we take longer to build the intimacy up.

    Long story short, on some level, they don't trust you enough to let you in further... sorry if that sounds harsh.

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    Ni is used to projecting the past scenarios forward. If they were projecting things into the future, and didn't see them working out, they will excuse themselves out of the venture. Not working out could include: not enough time or not enough resources, there isn't a plan to begin with, if there is a plan is has multiple flaws and no exit strategy, the ultimate end doesn't satisfy a goal/idea that the Ni ego is interested in, the motion happened too short notice for the Ni ego to weigh out pros and cons, and so on and so forth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    If I were in that position and acting the way you describe the Ni-egos, that probably indicates that I have been feeling wary about the relationship for quite some time. Someone putting pressure on me actually deters me even further and worst case, I can emotionally shortcuit and kind of *lose my mind* for a time if I feel rushed into emotional intimacy. I don't react kindly to people forcing a certain level of intimacy on me... It usually backfires. I have had two people force things with me: an EIE and a LSI. I am on good terms with the EIE after 3 years of friction. But I became the LSI's worst nightmare...lol.

    Ni-egos have their reasons for being guarded and if you force it, things tend to implode. Beta NFs need a set behavioral pattern to work off of before getting "closer" to people. If we feel someone seems too erratic or doesn't make sense, we take longer to build the intimacy up.

    Long story short, on some level, they don't trust you enough to let you in further... sorry if that sounds harsh.
    Thanks but you misunderstood too. The stuff is not to do with the relationship status. It's other stuff, not relationship status. If you notice, I called them already close relationships. One of these people has intended to marry me and did buy and give me an expensive engagement ring too. Another one I've known for over a decade as a friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Ni is used to projecting the past scenarios forward. If they were projecting things into the future, and didn't see them working out, they will excuse themselves out of the venture. Not working out could include: not enough time or not enough resources, there isn't a plan to begin with, if there is a plan is has multiple flaws and no exit strategy, the ultimate end doesn't satisfy a goal/idea that the Ni ego is interested in, the motion happened too short notice for the Ni ego to weigh out pros and cons, and so on and so forth.
    Thanks and what would make you just run from it hoping that I eventually just drop the topic, instead of sharing your concerns and worries?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    As for Ni-egos not wanting to discuss the problem and instead, simply disappearing, they by definition have low Se and are not great at real world actions or confrontations. I think that an Ni-ego, once they see that something is not going to work out, consider the problem to be similar to turning a steam locomotive into a cloud of butterflies. Not gonna happen, no point in discussing it, I'm onto some other path now, good luck.
    Actually, this again.

    I said it's really narrow-minded imo to not even consider the possibility that I could say or do something else that will change that one projected future path they are imagining.

    But I'll add, it's also narrow-minded to not consider any possibility for yourself to say or do something else that will change this one projected future path. As if you were that powerless.

    Let alone not considering the possibility that it's kind of also stupid to just right away assume that I had to necessarily suggest something that can't work out, so like, maybe your future path was calculated wrong, lol. E.g. based on some misunderstanding

    So yeah why not discuss it? How is there no point in at least INFORMING the other person that you don't see it working out and how you don't see it working? Besides this being just really rude and disrespectful too.

    I still cannot imagine how this would be so stresssful, so I still smell bullshit for these situations, lol

    Like it does come off as some subtle maneuver to manipulate the outcome in a dishonest way.

    Dishonest because the honest - and mature - way would be confronting it and discussing with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Thanks and what would make you just run from it hoping that I eventually just drop the topic, instead of sharing your concerns and worries?
    I'd say it's this sentence right here. You say you make the change out of your own volition, without consulting your Ni ego partner beforehand. And then you expect them to simply follow that change, which is ignoring their input, their own interests and goals. This kind of de-appreciation is going to make any partner disengage and start questioning the relationship.

    ... and then one day I make a sudden change and I want to ask for something bigger, then there's always this problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    I'd say it's this sentence right here. You say you make the change out of your own volition, without consulting your Ni ego partner beforehand. And then you expect them to simply follow that change, which is ignoring their input, their own interests and goals. This kind of de-appreciation is going to make any partner disengage and start questioning the relationship.
    No. This topic is abound with misunderstandings for some reason LOL.

    I wasn't saying that I actually made a TANGIBLE change. But I can see how that was easy to misinterpret. So to clarify, I meant that I made the change in my mind and now I want to discuss it for implementation while I am open to their input or disagreement or anything. What I am not open to is them simply disappearing and trying to manipulate the outcome that way.

    So MY WHOLE POINT is that I WANT their INPUT. But they instead disappear, instead of giving that INPUT, including input on their interests and goals.

    So now what is your answer with this clarification added?

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    PS: For all of you, I'm going to repeat in BIG FUCKING CAPS:

    THIS ISN'T ABOUT THEM WANTING TO DROP THE RELATIONSHIP OR QUESTIONING THE RELATIONSHIP AT ALL. IF ANYONE EVEN EVER QUESTIONED OR WANTED TO DROP THE RELATIONSHIP IT WAS ALWAYS ME, NOT THEM, AS A RESULT OF THEIR MANIPULATION TACTICS.

    This misunderstanding is getting boring. Where are you people reading that into my lines????

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    PS2: And NO IT WASN'T THEIR INTENT TO MANIPULATE ME INTO DROPPING THE RELATIONSHIP LIKE COLD TURKEY. THAT IS VERY CLEAR BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES HAVE TOLD ME SO IF THIS CAME UP ON MY END LOL. THE GUY ALSO STILL WANTED TO MARRY ME EVEN AFTER THESE DISAGREEMENTS.

    ...

    There, I'm done, calming down. I don't want anymore misunderstandings on this point. Any further misunderstanding on this point I am going to treat as Ni manipulation of the topic by doing reframing attempts.

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    Basically these people do want the fucking relationship but want it on their own fucking terms without informing me and yes I take issue with that. Even if only in retrospect in some of these cases, lol.

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    Ni types want to be with ppl who can handle our level of weird. Can you cut it? Will you survive and thrive? Etc

    If an Se type wants something and throws it out there, I am very adamantine on a few points:'that benefits your life but is a burden to me, and there are better options', etc. But many things I am happy for them to have because it doesn't harm me, and I like being along for the adventure. Think of it a bit like a wizard who's always looking at a future you don't know. And you're very focused on the present.
    IF I CANT SEE THAT YOU CAN HANDLE HEARING NO....THAT YOU SEEM LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE YOUR SHIT AND TANTRUM OR FEEL BEREFT ...or not be open to Ne to search out a mutually beneficial alternative but are instead wanting to die on some hill, well, then you aren't able to go the distance with me, and I either leave to spare you or to shake off the weight
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    Ni types want to be with ppl who can handle our level of weird. Can you cut it? Will you survive and thrive? Etc

    If an Se type wants something and throws it out there, I am very adamantine on a few points:'that benefits your life but is a burden to me, and there are better options', etc. But many things I am happy for them to have because it doesn't harm me, and I like being along for the adventure. Think of it a bit like a wizard who's always looking at a future you don't know. And you're very focused on the present.
    IF I CANT SEE THAT YOU CAN HANDLE HEARING NO....THAT YOU SEEM LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE YOUR SHIT AND TANTRUM OR FEEL BEREFT ...or not be open to Ne to search out a mutually beneficial alternative but are instead wanting to die on some hill, well, then you aren't able to go the distance with me, and I either leave to spare you or to shake off the weight
    Oh I'm happy being told that "there are better options" in your opinion or whatever.

    I think what you said in caps lol, that that makes sense. But I think that it would be nice for you as a Ni ego to consider that maybe your read of the Se stuff is wrong sometimes and that the other person should be respected at least as much as being told this? Tho sure if you mean you don't want to handle the possible confrontation/conflict resulting from it....uh oh that can be stressful eh?

    Don't forget all this still remains in the context of the relationship, the Ni ego isn't looking to drop the relationship itself. The maneuvering is inside the relationship, not outside of it.

    Thanks for the input. This one feels like most on point so far.

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    I think some of it is neither person having diplomacy skills
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    lol possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I think some of it is neither person having diplomacy skills
    Or perhaps the people aren't stating the full, exact truth as they see it.

    Like, "I really like you but I don't want to get married, because you squeeze the toothpaste from the middle of the tube and I can't stand that and I know you are never going to change."

    Or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    No. This topic is abound with misunderstandings for some reason LOL.

    I wasn't saying that I actually made a TANGIBLE change. But I can see how that was easy to misinterpret. So to clarify, I meant that I made the change in my mind and now I want to discuss it for implementation while I am open to their input or disagreement or anything. What I am not open to is them simply disappearing and trying to manipulate the outcome that way.

    So MY WHOLE POINT is that I WANT their INPUT. But they instead disappear, instead of giving that INPUT, including input on their interests and goals.

    So now what is your answer with this clarification added?
    Their input is in their reaction. They disappear because they were scared away/didn't like it etc. It's on you whether to chase it further and whether you can make the cut. If they like you that much they will open up themselves.

    Imo just form a relationship based on closeness, kindness and trust from the beginning. But that's kinda Fi and dunno if it works in more 'volatile' Beta terms… Just cut to nice atmosphere maybe? Idk what Betas do here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Or perhaps the people aren't stating the full, exact truth as they see it. Like, "I really like you but I don't want to get married, because you squeeze the toothpaste from the middle of the tube and I can't stand that and I know you are never going to change."

    Or something.
    lol I never cared about toothpaste BTW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Their input is in their reaction. They disappear because they were scared away/didn't like it etc. It's on you whether to chase it further and whether you can make the cut. If they like you that much they will open up themselves.

    Imo just form a relationship based on closeness, kindness and trust from the beginning. But that's kinda Fi and dunno if it works in more 'volatile' Beta terms… Just cut to nice atmosphere maybe? Idk what Betas do here
    thanks now I have input from all 4 Ni ego types lol

    Yah it's kinda Fi but I do think it has a place in every relationship on a basic level.

    Anyway my issue is if this isn't manipulation then I'd just like them to be able to have more communication skills lol .... instead of dancing around all of it wasting time. Bc I do escalate afterwards yes i.e what you called chase so it's all a waste of time before we do actually confront the whole issue

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    @grumpyvic81 Could you give an example of a change you proposed?

    What Stance said.
    So here's an IEI POV but idk how much of it carrier over to other Ni types.

    I think i see it not so much as "avoiding" the problem, but just thinking the problem doesn't actually exist, that it'll go away. it sounds kinda silly writing it down, but that's really what it feels like. i see a lot of future paths where the issue has evolved or gone away. for example, believing the demand will go away due to the person's nature (they are a person that tends to say/ask things they usually drop later..)
    So for strong Ni peeps this could be one issue, that they assume so much. You could tell them you wished they stopped assuming things about you (if they are IEI, speaking for myself, you can just bluntly tell them as long as you.. see below) but keep in mind it sometimes takes a lot to really get something into our heads.. but that's one reason SLEs are good for IEIs right, you're good at showing the IEI when something is important for them.
    Also sometimes the Ni type needs to think about what's happening a bit, so still leave them some room to process things in their own time. sometimes during the times it seems like i'm avoiding, well either i'm actually avoiding, but i could also be background processing and figuring out what to think and what to do.

    With my ESI-Se mom I often found it hard to do what she asked if I really didn't want to. i quickly learned that yelling back only prolongs arguments (that never get anyway), so the best thing to do is to remain quiet and silently resist (or be passive-aggressive, however you view it..?)
    Our relationship got better as i got older, when i started learning to communicate what i felt more (sometimes i assume people "get" more things than they actually do). i told her that i don't mind so much if you yell, but it doesn't mean you have to always criticize me, in fact that makes me want to completely shut you off and our arguments get very unproductive.
    When i feel like i'm in a "safe" environment so-to-speak (safe from personal attacks example), that despite the argument going on, beneath the surface there is still goodwill and the person is listening to me, i open up like a flower.. i just need to be constantly affirmed with good Fe vibes yknow. else i wanna run away from the person

    Also, I can usually judge (or feel like i can judge..) if a person will be able to understand me the way i want them to or not. If i sense you won't really understand just because of the differences in how we see things (our compatibility ig), i won't bother bringing it up or explaining and just skip over or provide a superficial explanation of what i feel. The more i feel like you can understand, the deeper and deeper i will go into how i feel.
    But honestly, oftentimes my desire to connect and be in understanding with someone overrides my reticence and i still try. So I think if you just show that you're very willing to try, it should be enough. For me.

    When they said they were stressed or overloaded, what was it in response to? they were stressed about what you asked/you or just in their life, generally..? Also do you bring this up as a question about a specific person or two?

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    Thanks for this, I will get to doing a response to all of this later, I need a little time to think about some of this first. But just a quick answer, this is more than one person yeah it's been a pattern. And they either said they were stressed in general (they said this more often) or they said having to deal with the conflict is stressful (less often), or they tried to make up a (distorted ofc and tbh very manipulative) reframing of me and my behaviour over time that essentially aimed to convey the same


    Edit: I'll add that I can believe it if they feel overwhelmed by pressure fast but I gotta understand more on that too bc it seems so fast overwhelm sometimes lol (from my pov ofc)

    To be fair I also get affected bad by being ignored (ie the exact opposite of what I do with the direct pressure/confrontation), lol

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    I will add this as update (copypasting from another post of mine)

    also just the other day I had enough of someone doing passive aggro crap and I really got not just angry at them but also kinda mean (not totally, I reserve actual meanness only for really crap people) and just aggressive overall and issued a hard ultimatum with threats. They were a Ni ego person. The end result - well, yeah, have a guess. They managed to mirror my attitude eventually and tried to be even more mean and aggressive back at me LOL frankly I enjoyed it. I'm serious, I enjoy that more than passive aggressive distant silent treatment running away etc crap. Then we had a discussion and got to some agreement OK.

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    As for somebody being assertive and enforcing their will upon me it kinda depends. Are they really taking *me* along with their journey or am I supposed to be this complete sycophant to their narcissism? Despite being passive and shy- I also am quite willful myself and won't really put up with somebody treating me this way. I know I have a big heart and can be a good listener and morph myself into a faux-EII or faux-SEI when need be - but I also refused to be "used" because of this. Being a one-way emotional tampon sucks lol. Either we're both the tampons or we're both something else but I am not going to put up with something like that.

    ((not saying that you yourself are doing that but that is one of the situations where I'd act that way.))

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    As for somebody being assertive and enforcing their will upon me it kinda depends. Are they really taking *me* along with their journey or am I supposed to be this complete sycophant to their narcissism? Despite being passive and shy- I also am quite willful myself and won't really put up with somebody treating me this way. I know I have a big heart and can be a good listener and morph myself into a faux-EII or faux-SEI when need be - but I also refused to be "used" because of this. Being a one-way emotional tampon sucks lol. Either we're both the tampons or we're both something else but I am not going to put up with something like that.

    ((not saying that you yourself are doing that but that is one of the situations where I'd act that way.))
    Thanks for the input. It makes sense. I do none of that. I don't use people even if some have tried to use me. However with one of these people specifically I have been accused of just wanting to get my way always. It was ironic bc this is a quite willful person too that accused me of that, so,...... The ones that are not as openly willful never accused me of that in the same way so maybe projection? It did annoy me because my intent wasn't even "just get my way always" when this person accused me of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    Could you give an example of a change you proposed?
    Sorry, I still can't think of one that's not too personal to share. I'll let you know if I remember one like that


    What Stance said.
    So here's an IEI POV but idk how much of it carrier over to other Ni types.

    I think i see it not so much as "avoiding" the problem, but just thinking the problem doesn't actually exist, that it'll go away. it sounds kinda silly writing it down, but that's really what it feels like. i see a lot of future paths where the issue has evolved or gone away. for example, believing the demand will go away due to the person's nature (they are a person that tends to say/ask things they usually drop later..)
    So trying to respond more in-depth now. Yeah what you said here makes sense, with some of these people (maybe even all of them) I definitely have got that sense sometimes LOL. It feels really out of place wishful thinking for me tho I mean it actually achieves the opposite...I get more persistent if I see these people trying to avoid me lol. That's where it starts to feel like a shitty "game" that I actually want no part of but I plain can't just give up like they would like to try to get me to...?! Passive aggression is really one of the things I hate the most. I totally have this principle of never doing it myself.

    Lol, though maybe these Ni egos also feel like it's being stuck in a shitty game. From the other end, lol.


    So for strong Ni peeps this could be one issue, that they assume so much. You could tell them you wished they stopped assuming things about you (if they are IEI, speaking for myself, you can just bluntly tell them as long as you.. see below) but keep in mind it sometimes takes a lot to really get something into our heads.. but that's one reason SLEs are good for IEIs right, you're good at showing the IEI when something is important for them.
    Yeah I have been able to get stuff across to IEIs that others haven't been able to. : p


    Also sometimes the Ni type needs to think about what's happening a bit, so still leave them some room to process things in their own time. sometimes during the times it seems like i'm avoiding, well either i'm actually avoiding, but i could also be background processing and figuring out what to think and what to do.
    That's awesome but why not tell the other person that it's just this, needing more time?


    With my ESI-Se mom I often found it hard to do what she asked if I really didn't want to. i quickly learned that yelling back only prolongs arguments (that never get anyway), so the best thing to do is to remain quiet and silently resist (or be passive-aggressive, however you view it..?)
    You mean the ESI would give up when you tried this quiet passive aggressive tactics? That's the problem because it just intensifies perseverance for me lol and after enough time passed I just escalate more strongly, even to levels where I didn't plan to go to originally .... Tho I'm not saying I get in my own way with that because I do not, lol. I just get real impulsive eventually but even then I don't really get in my own way, like I don't get my eyes off the original goal of whatever that is (be it even just getting the person to communicate with me). But sometimes it does result in more bad drama than what I'd want lol and I want to stop this pattern/game/whatever because of that.


    Our relationship got better as i got older, when i started learning to communicate what i felt more (sometimes i assume people "get" more things than they actually do). i told her that i don't mind so much if you yell, but it doesn't mean you have to always criticize me, in fact that makes me want to completely shut you off and our arguments get very unproductive.
    OH yes this kind of assertiveness works fine for me. Do you think it's harder for Ni egos than for most people to do that directness?


    When i feel like i'm in a "safe" environment so-to-speak (safe from personal attacks example), that despite the argument going on, beneath the surface there is still goodwill and the person is listening to me, i open up like a flower.. i just need to be constantly affirmed with good Fe vibes yknow. else i wanna run away from the person
    Ah well everyone wants good Fe vibes lol even the non-Fe-valuer people tbh, it's just some universal human need crap lol

    Tbh a problem there can be that when I meet what comes off passive aggressive to me I get pissed and all good Fe vibes and manners go out the window. So that's the part that's me in the equation I think

    I just don't really know what kind of "good Fe vibes" I'm supposed to produce in the face of that lol. I don't do personal attacks BTW but apparently I have the ability to sound mean in the eyes of some people even without doing personal attacks. It's more like me being pissed strongly without the "good Fe vibes"


    Also, I can usually judge (or feel like i can judge..) if a person will be able to understand me the way i want them to or not. If i sense you won't really understand just because of the differences in how we see things (our compatibility ig), i won't bother bringing it up or explaining and just skip over or provide a superficial explanation of what i feel. The more i feel like you can understand, the deeper and deeper i will go into how i feel.
    I see, well I used to be like, I tried too hard to get stuff across to people even in a not so close relationship and would explain easily and waste my own time with that. But in a close relationship I'm still glad to try and do that... if it doesn't work then I have concrete proof that they really are not able to understand me. I don't see it as a waste of time because it's a close enough relationship that's worth me trying.


    But honestly, oftentimes my desire to connect and be in understanding with someone overrides my reticence and i still try. So I think if you just show that you're very willing to try, it should be enough. For me.
    Yeah I'm like that too now, then even if it's not a close relationship I'm more willing to put in the time to explain

    (Again, I used to just put in the effort to explain to everyone, not anymore.... but if someone explicitly shows this willingness then I still will be open to do that)


    When they said they were stressed or overloaded, what was it in response to? they were stressed about what you asked/you or just in their life, generally..? Also do you bring this up as a question about a specific person or two?
    OK I responded to this above

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    Or they ((yes, unfairly)) thought you probably would more than likely do that because of bad prior experiences that had nothing to do with you?

    I'm sorry if you met an IEI that really was a selfish, narcissistic asshole though. Please don't judge your experiences with all IEIs/ILIs though based on the behavior of a few. <3

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    Ok. I figured this one out.

    @Adam Strange thanks for the advice yesterday but I chose to do something else.

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    @Adam Strange let me also say this (cba to find another thread or PM or anything), I don't think duality works nowadays. Maybe it did in the past with stricter social norms and roles in the marriage/family/community. But nowadays... We are all free to choose whatever and we are all free to keep running for the greener grass. So duality between two very clearly expressed types (i.e. strong focus on ego and zero focus on the opposite of it in the "shadow") such as you are too (and I am too in a way), it's not possible to keep it working for long. So for example your Fi lead women they don't like the lack of Fi in you after a while. Not an attack on you bc I could say the exact same about myself

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    @Adam Strange let me also say this (cba to find another thread or PM or anything), I don't think duality works nowadays. Maybe it did in the past with stricter social norms and roles in the marriage/family/community. But nowadays... We are all free to choose whatever and we are all free to keep running for the greener grass. So duality between two very clearly expressed types (i.e. strong focus on ego and zero focus on the opposite of it in the "shadow") such as you are too (and I am too in a way), it's not possible to keep it working for long. So for example your Fi lead women they don't like the lack of Fi in you after a while. Not an attack on you bc I could say the exact same about myself

    Food for thought, @grumpyvic81. I know that the general oil prosperity and the social safety net have enabled most people to live generally stress-free lives, especially compared to previous generations, and hence there are fewer crisis which your dual can help you with on a day-to-day basis. In general, this is a good thing but it does reduce the need for Duals.

    In my own life, I don't see many ESI-LIE Dual pairs. Only one, actually. Most of the LIE's and ESI's whom I know are in some varying degree of dysfunctional relationship with a non-Dual. I'm sure that each one of them chose their mates for reasons of time, expediency, and availability and have tried to make the best of it since then. It is true that long term-stability in relationships depends a lot on the health of the individuals and their respective social skills.

    I certainly know that it is hard to get an ESI to see me. It is a hundred times harder to find one who wants to be with me. So hard, in fact, that it has only happened once, and she was 22 years old. FML. I haven't given up on the idea of Duality, but I'm finding it a hard slog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Food for thought, @grumpyvic81. I know that the general oil prosperity and the social safety net have enabled most people to live generally stress-free lives, especially compared to previous generations, and hence there are fewer crisis which your dual can help you with on a day-to-day basis. In general, this is a good thing but it does reduce the need for Duals.

    In my own life, I don't see many ESI-LIE Dual pairs. Only one, actually. Most of the LIE's and ESI's whom I know are in some varying degree of dysfunctional relationship with a non-Dual. I'm sure that each one of them chose their mates for reasons of time, expediency, and availability and have tried to make the best of it since then. It is true that long term-stability in relationships depends a lot on the health of the individuals and their respective social skills.

    I certainly know that it is hard to get an ESI to see me. It is a hundred times harder to find one who wants to be with me. So hard, in fact, that it has only happened once, and she was 22 years old. FML. I haven't given up on the idea of Duality, but I'm finding it a hard slog.
    I mean while you convert all the Fi to Te I dont think it will happen

    But Im not sure if its worth not converting things to your ego's language

    Its probably just better to go with whoever it works with enough IN REALITY regardless of this duality crap

    Like who the fuck wants to keep chasing a dream thats just not real

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    I'm not so sure that those relationships are inherently more dysfunctional just because they are not dual types. That seems way too simple. And socionics is a facet of reality but I think that's given it too much value or something.

    I DO think though, I have this theory that Si/Ne valuing is way better for relationships in a realistic sense than Se/Ni is. Ne valuing seeing more potential hazards from a wider variety of sources (so can defend against them better) and Si just mediating & smoothing out difficulties more naturally, rather than about one's own willpower. Se/Ni takes more work or something...

    Relationships work on compromise and 'talking through things together' like a boring Delta sitcom. *tries not to throw up* Se doesn't want to compromise and Si just does it so much easier.

    And idk there is a lot of Beta bashing on this forum but I do think objectively beta with the valued functions would be the 'worst' at relationships and Delta would be the best and then Gamma/Alpha somewhere in the middle.
    Last edited by BandD; 10-20-2020 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    I mean while you convert all the Fi to Te I dont think it will happen

    But Im not sure if its worth not converting things to your ego's language

    Its probably just better to go with whoever it works with enough IN REALITY regardless of this duality crap

    Like who the fuck wants to keep chasing a dream thats just not real
    One who has not found a more appealing alternative maybe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenasnoches View Post
    One who has not found a more appealing alternative maybe
    Kali, this is exactly right. I've dated every introvert in the socion and had LTR's with two LSI's and an SLI, and they all crashed in one way or another, and usually that "way" was in line with Socionics's predictions.

    I'm not saying that a relationship with a Dual won't crash. I'll be the first to say that even getting a relationship with a Dual started is beginning to seem like an impossible task, but when I'm with most of my Duals, I'm not feeling like this is a dead end for one reason or another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    As for somebody being assertive and enforcing their will upon me it kinda depends. Are they really taking *me* along with their journey or am I supposed to be this complete sycophant to their narcissism? Despite being passive and shy- I also am quite willful myself and won't really put up with somebody treating me this way. I know I have a big heart and can be a good listener and morph myself into a faux-EII or faux-SEI when need be - but I also refused to be "used" because of this. Being a one-way emotional tampon sucks lol. Either we're both the tampons or we're both something else but I am not going to put up with something like that.

    ((not saying that you yourself are doing that but that is one of the situations where I'd act that way.))
    This is unrelated but how do you feel about Se-like places and activities like Vegas and skydiving? I have friends who are IEIs and they like the idea of doing “adventurous” things but when we go on some rollercoaster, they literally piss their pants. If I suggest we go on a road trip to some weird, remote place; they’ve also liked the idea but then talk about spirits (they know I don’t believe in spirits and supernatural stuff) to avoid going there. I’ve taken them on some impromptu trips but then they have panic attacks in the middle of the night and slam doors. I’m much closer to Si friends but they freak out if we don’t have a “plan” and my “plan” is basically we do stuff once we land at the destination. At this point, I’m looking for new traveling partners. Quarantine has been extremely boring and I want to do more traveling but all my friends have gotten on my last damn nerve. I don’t know of any ILIs irl... so I wonder if they get out much?


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    This is unrelated but how do you feel about Se-like places and activities like Vegas and skydiving? I have friends who are IEIs and they like the idea of doing “adventurous” things but when we go on some rollercoaster, they literally piss their pants. If I suggest we go on a road trip to some weird, remote place; they’ve also liked the idea but then talk about spirits (they know I don’t believe in spirits and supernatural stuff) to avoid going there. I’ve taken them on some impromptu trips but then they have panic attacks in the middle of the night and slam doors. I’m much closer to Si friends but they freak out if we don’t have a “plan” and my “plan” is basically we do stuff once we land at the destination. At this point, I’m looking for new traveling partners. Quarantine has been extremely boring and I want to do more traveling but all my friends have gotten on my last damn nerve. I don’t know of any ILIs irl... so I wonder if they get out much?
    Well I would like to go to Vegas because I have a high sex drive, and I'm naturally pervy ((in a legal way of course)) and I've heard there are some lewd Se-sex shows I'd probably enjoy seeing. But meh they're probably not going on right now because of COVID I'd wager. I also like to gamble.

    I love road trips. I'm not a fan of physical risk/danger though. It doesn't excite me. I'm not a 'typical male' in this sense probably and it's why I avoid a lot of things like getting into physical fights with people, walking across dangerous ledges etc. My IEI female sister is different though and she seems to enjoy these things a lot more than me. I think it depends on the IEI too. Some IEI are really IEI-y and some IEIs are more EII-ish. That's just the interesting nature of socionics.

    Like you said I easily get others to do the fighting for me. I inspire people to tank for me and to do that while I kind of just provoke people and then run away. LoL. I'm sooo good at provoking almost everybody. I have like a super good 'Taunt' spell but none of the other Warrior-like abilities to handle it though haha. But with that said, the couple times I was forced to physically fight I actually won because the person under-estimated me and because I'm a southpaw. ((and I'm a big strong guy despite being IEI))

    However I do understand the chemical rush of thrill seeking stuff, I just don't seek it out myself too much. A few years ago I almost got hit by a train- and it was so exciting and terrifying. However- when the train didn't hit me and I didn't die- I felt so amazingly powerful and God-like (and then the feeling wore off after about 15-30 mins or so of course) so I kinda get it 'thrill seeking' but I'm too much of a worry wart and would rather stay in boring equilibrium most of the time. Sometimes too much so though yeah where I let fears and anxiety get the better of me.

    As for panic attacks, I used to have them really bad and they are awful. I wish I could get people to understand what they are like because they are not fun. To everybody else it's like we're okay and we're just being these oversensitive little ninnies. However when you're actually going through a real panic attack it's a nightmare. It's like the world is ending in the most horrible way imaginable. But it's not. But to you it is. I don't have them any more because I've learned how to calm down my own breathing and thoughts. This comes and goes though. Right now I'm having a good day and my Ni is under control lol. I haven't had a real panic attack though for about eight years thankfully. (I had a minor one about two years ago, due to having the flu extremely bad)

    But yeah Se/Te stuff is so weird to me. Like a few years ago I had an exam and the doctor pressed into my stomach REALLY hard. I was so surprised how much it didn't hurt. It's like I avoid a lot of stuff because I think it will be too painful for me to handle, but then it's like when I actually do it- I want it to be more aggressive? lol. I surprise myself sometimes with how strong I am/how much I can take but my head is kind of 'you're an IEI delicate victim flower' so it gets complicated. I don't have a good gauge of those things at all like 4D Se people do.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenasnoches View Post
    One who has not found a more appealing alternative maybe
    You must accept and make do with reality tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I'm not so sure that those relationships are inherently more dysfunctional just because they are not dual types. That seems way too simple. And socionics is a facet of reality but I think that's given it too much value or something.

    I DO think though, I have this theory that Si/Ne valuing is way better for relationships in a realistic sense than Se/Ni is. Ne valuing seeing more potential hazards from a wider variety of sources (so can defend against them better) and Si just mediating & smoothing out difficulties more naturally, rather than about one's own willpower. Se/Ni takes more work or something...

    Relationships work on compromise and 'talking through things together' like a boring Delta sitcom. *tries not to throw up* Se doesn't want to compromise and Si just does it so much easier.

    And idk there is a lot of Beta bashing on this forum but I do think objectively beta with the valued functions would be the 'worst' at relationships and Delta would be the best and then Gamma/Alpha somewhere in the middle.
    Actually I like your post except the bolded I so don't agree with, lol. What is a relationship without long-term meaning (Ni) and what is it without emotional passion (Fe)?

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    Actually I like your post except the bolded I so don't agree with, lol. What is a relationship without long-term meaning (Ni) and what is it without emotional passion (Fe)?


    Well idk I always thought 'meaning' was more Fi than Ni. I do agree with you on the Fe though. I quite enjoy Fe in relationships and it's underrated in a Te/Fi valuing society. ((USA as a whole is a very Gamma society I think.))





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