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Thread: Age and Quadra Values

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    Lightbulb Age and Quadra Values

    Hello there, have you guys realized that people in different life stages have different values? For example, teenagers in general are more Beta regardless of their actual type, and seniors are more likely to endorse Delta values. Have you noticed this as well, and do you think this might account for some of the mistypes? Not only that, but people can alter their personality during transition periods like the early-teen crisis, quarter-life crisis, and mid-life crisis.

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    I believe your subtype / persona can change over time. (superficial layers in one's psyche)

    Your type doesn't really change - it's too deep and rigid (that's what she said) in ur psyche

    It's kinda like not being able to change your race;

    Sure you can learn different dialects of your language, change your appearance via makeup, change your style over time, etc, but you'll never change ur race, something that's deep-rooted in u.

    Between all people, we have differences and commonalities.

    1. So first, differences;

    No two people are the same. We were all raised in different environments and we can change ourselves depending on who we're with, what we're doing, etc. Its the mask u wear in public. (persona or personality).

    2. However, if we go deeper, we can explain some commonalities:

    Three layers in our psyche (Gulenko);

    1. Sociotype (the deepest core) its structure doesn't really change during life

    2. Subtype (middle layer) This is a variant of the sociotype. Its stability is more subject to influence in one's life (perhaps shocks in one's life, midlife crisis like u mentioned etc)

    3. Functional Profile (softest most mobile psychic layer); this is definitely subject to one's environment. ex: a military environment can make one harder/coarser, etc. The usual lifespan of this profile is usually several years and explains patterns of behavior
    Last edited by fireee; 10-01-2020 at 11:39 PM.

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    People have their Quadra, and the point of each Quadra is to lead their generation when it is relevant:

    Alpha leads childhood, creating fun games, pushing for exploration, and being open and inclusive to all - you make minimal to no value judgments on your peers.

    Beta leads adolescents, pushing for social revolution and changes, see the world as us vs them, finding your "pack", and pushing for psychologically darker and more dramatic exploration (i.e., drugs, sex) that leads to very personal growth (Se -> Ni).

    Gamma leads adulthood, pushing for the suppression of childish/dramatic emotional expression in favour of a dry, down-to-business business-like approach. Also, social groups typically fragment themselves at this point, with then number of close relations often dropping to three to four for more people. This is also the time people begin to get a sense of strong moral conviction of right and wrong and being more selective in who you are willing to interact with.

    Delta leads old age, pushing for a more relaxing, self-focused, live-and-let-live morality. Dramatics are suppressed for calm, relaxing activities, and there is the desire to stabilize the system, particularly as the wealth people have developed over their lives depend on the system they used to accumulate it.

    At the end of life, if you get there, you have passed through each Quadra, and archetypically experienced the whole of the human condition . You only belong to one Quadra, and it is your job to lead your generation when it is required age-wise. Likewise, when your generation is in your conflicting Quadra's age-range, you are the antithesis at that point (e.g., a cold, socially selective child is questioned (Gamma as Child); the adult who challenges authority with questions and demands further exploration for the truth is stomped down (Alpha as Adult)) I think that this is broken down even further to each individual type; however, I won't get into it that much, but I will give an example:

    e.g., BETA leads its generation through adolescence/young adulthood

    LSIs are responsible for teaching their generation during adolescence: that it is okay to stand up to authority if authority does not make sense; to demand rationality and reason for every action that has been taken against you (i.e., as a child).

    SLEs are responsible for teaching their generation during adolescence: that the world is physically larger than your comfortable home, and that you can not hide from it forever. It is there, and it is yours to explore, and you can not hide from reality (i.e., drugs, sex, physical altercations).

    EIEs are responsible for teaching their generation during adolescence: that social progress must be demanded, and that sitting idly by while injustice is going on is dangerous, and that by teaming up together, "as one", change can be made.

    IEIs are responsible for teaching their generation during adolescence: that your vision, experience, and trauma is unique to you, and that in order to move ahead and find your ultimate place in the world you have to understand your own story and make peace with it.

    You can also see how duals work here:

    SLE-IEI - Se pushes for physical exploration (sex, drugs, actual physical exploration), and then Ni makes sense of it when it inevitably brings you to a low.

    LSI-EIE - Ti says "this is stupid, this does not make sense, this is not just," and Fe says "stand up, fight, demand change and justice."
    Last edited by mightylizard; 10-03-2020 at 04:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mightylizard View Post
    e.g., BETA leads its generation through adolescence/young adulthood
    So my time is already up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oath of solitude View Post
    So my time is already up?
    No, your job now is to make sure that Beta values don't get lost in the other time points. At around 50 or so you get to be the "hero" as you knock down all of the old Deltas who sip tea and veto any attempt at social change and revolution - congrats (e.g., Jordan Peterson was an EIE who stood up against what was heavily Delta NFs trying to "secure" certain laws in his 50s. Whether you agree with what he did or not, that is an example of the concept - you rebel the most during the time period that you conflict with). That is assuming this whole idea is true. I think it is more of a archtypal narrative than an absolute truth.

    Another example: Deltas, particularly Delta NFs, typically rebel the most during their late teenage/early adult years - this is typically the point that they reject society and love to do silly marches and "peaceful protests" about shit (typically Beta-ST-valued things like hierarchy and strict, no-exception rules and principles). I do not know how this manifests with Delta STs, but it probably is them rebelling against Beta-NF-esque things. I think maybe Delta STs rebel in a strange way - by not rejecting the status quo at this point in life, and by accepting whatever society has told them works. They reject the Beta-NF type of archetypal transformation - from "boy" to "man" so to speak, which, archtypally, typically always has the hero leave the culture in order to formulate his own identity. Delta STs do not leave "the farm," and therefore, they are the heros at this point, as they do not abandon society for their own development, but stay because of their sense of duty/commitment to the society that raised them.

    This is probably a mess, because it is more of a stream-of-consciousness post, but I can try and elaborate more clearly on what I mean if you want.

    Actually, I feel as though your "truest" story is still to come, as according to my theory/hypothesis the time at which you will feel like the biggest "outsider" in the context of your generation is at old age, which also means this is the point when you must become "the hero" and stand up against society. A great example is Joan Rivers, who was an SLE - I would argue she was the most outspoken and the most controversial when she was old. Ni+Ti - I have obsessively chipped away at my worldview my entire life, and I am confident in it, and now everyone that I know has closed their books and just wants to sit out the rest of their life drinking tea and watching the birds? Shouldn't we be doing something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMdBHvpdJKY
    Last edited by mightylizard; 10-03-2020 at 05:30 PM.

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    > teenagers in general are more Beta regardless of their actual type, and seniors are more likely to endorse Delta values

    Probably you follow the association met in some texts about boring and quiet deltas. So higher activity of youth associated with beta for you. It's not correct.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Delta leads old age, pushing for a more relaxing, self-focused, live-and-let-live morality. Dramatics are suppressed for calm, relaxing activities, and there is the desire to stabilize the system, particularly as the wealth people have developed over their lives depend on the system they used to accumulate it.
    Supposedly the task or interest of Delta is not to stabilize any system, is actually to perfect society through technology and morals (according Gulenko). Is not about systems but individuation. Is about completion, perfection and rest. And according Strat is about reaching self perfection, teaching others and trying to get a state above commonality, to look for trascendence.
    Last edited by Tommy; 10-08-2020 at 06:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    > teenagers in general are more Beta regardless of their actual type, and seniors are more likely to endorse Delta values

    Probably you follow the association met in some texts about boring and quiet deltas. So higher activity of youth associated with beta for you. It's not correct.
    I'm not talking about reality so much as archetypal narratives. Archetypally Delta Quadra is the final Quadra, and is represented symbolically by old age. Archetypally Beta Quadra is the second Quadra, and is represented symbolically by adolescence. There are plenty of youthful Deltas and boring, placid Betas; however, that is not the point that I am making.

    Teenagers are "archetypally" Beta - the archetypal teenager/young adult is writing "fuck the police" across the overpass (Beta ST), or moving across the country, as far as they can from their small town, in order to find themselves and create their own story (Beta NF). Plenty of Deltas do those things, and plenty of Betas do not; however the actions are archetypally Beta, regardless of who is doing them.

    I may not have been as clear as I should have been initially.

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    @fireee

    I agree with what you said. However, the interesting thing about subtypes is that I think it's both inborn and environmentally influenced. In the real world, there's no such thing as a single "type", since there's so many variations among people. Even within these variations, environmental factors can still impact people.

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    Just wondering, have you or anyone you’ve known undergone a significant personality change due to age?

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    The main changes that occur with age are an increase in general abilities with experience, a slow decline in strength, and a tendency to look back in time more than forwards. I'd say that none of these things are quadra related, exactly. Not the changes, anyway.

    I'd say, though, that the difference between a young and old person being one of looking back vs. looking forward accounts for the association of people who value Si-Te (historical facts, what was, instead of what will be or what is) with old age.

    Si-Fe = How we all feel right now.
    Se-Ti = External action in a structured context.
    Se-Te = External action, any useful facts regardless of context.
    Si-Te = What has made me feel this way

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    I'm like 33.. I guess I'm stuck being a teenager forever..


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    All the people I'm about to describe are over 50.

    I have an Alpha LII sister who is on her third marriage. She lived at home until she was 35 and my Delta father bought her a house to get her out of his, because she was just drinking and drugging and working at crap jobs and he couldn't take it anymore. She's been married a few times, and she's now married to an LSE who takes care of the house and yard and when she got mad at him once, she didn't talk to him for two years. My ILI buddy got her a job at the local college. She takes care of their phone system, where she doesn't have to talk to anyone, at all.

    I have a Beta female IEI cousin who moved to Tucson and got married to an Identical shoe salesman and they bought a beautiful house. He turned out to be gay and they divorced, then she moved into a trailer and then into her parent's house, where she is now. She dog sits for a living and posts every day to her friends on Facebook.

    I (Gamma) left home at 18, got a degree, had multiple throw-away jobs until I started the first of three companies (two failed after a few years), got married, had a son, got divorced, and now am looking to get married again. If I need to start a new business, I'll do it.

    My Delta LSE sister went to pharmacy school, got married to an IEI conflictor, got a job as a pharmacist (six figures), they bought the first of several houses, and they are now living in Colorado. She is still working, but he has never had what you would call a job. She is the executor of my parent's estate.

    See any trends here?

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    #Child4eva.

    Actually other options are dull as hell and duller it gets as quadrants progress towards the grave. Hmmm... ice-cream.

    Alpha: ice-cream
    Beta: pepper
    Gamma: vegetables
    Delta: predigested food.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    I think I have a new analogy for age and Quadra values:

    ILE/SEI > early childhood
    Focus on nurturance and imaginative play without responsibilities.
    LII/ESE > late childhood
    Focus on academic learning and being polite and friendly to peers.

    LSI/EIE > early adolescence
    Focus on establishing popularity and a group identity in order to rebel against childhood.
    SLE/IEI > late adolescence
    Focus on the freedom to live and dream from established independence.

    ILI/SEE > early adulthood
    Focus on pragmatic decision-making and grit in order to succeed in the adult world.
    LIE/ESI > late adulthood
    Focus on the accumulation of profit and prestige after gaining financial stability.

    LSE/EII > early elders
    Focus on humanitarian profit and volunteerism in order to gave back to society.
    SLI/IEE > late elders
    Focus on health and transient happiness before dying of old age.

    Based on my analogy, process types lead from one Quadra to another while result types stabilizes the transition.
    Last edited by Surreal; 10-09-2020 at 05:12 PM.

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    @Adam Strange Nope, am I missing something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    @Adam Strange Nope, am I missing something?
    No, @Surreal. You aren't missing anything.

    The quadra values were almost certainly originally defined by people in their thirties, for people in their thirties. But even after age 50, things have not changed.

    It is amazing to me to see old people acting like little kids (Alphas) or teenagers (Betas), and it is amazing to me to see kids who are eight to twelve (Deltas) acting like really old people, but that's the way it seems to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    I think I have a new analogy for age and Quadra values:

    ILE/SEI > early childhood
    Focus on nurturance and imaginative play without responsibilities.
    LII/ESE > late childhood
    Focus on academic learning and being polite and friendly to peers.

    LSI/EIE > early adolescence
    Focus on establishing popularity and a group identity in order to rebel against childhood.
    SLE/IEI > late adolescence
    Focus on the freedom to live and dream from established independence.

    ILI/SEE > early adulthood
    Focus on pragmatic decision-making and grit in order to succeed in the adult world.
    LIE/ESI > late adulthood
    Focus on the accumulation of profit and prestige after gaining financial stability.

    LSE/EII > early elders
    Focus on humanitarian profit and volunteerism in order to gave back to society.
    SLI/IEE > late elders
    Focus on health and transient happiness before dying of old age.

    Based on my analogy, process types lead from one Quadra to another while result types stabilizes the transition.
    @Surreal, I really like this ordering of types. I'm adding it to my master spreadsheet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'm adding it to my master spreadsheet.
    Say no more.

    TBH I have been lately scripting spreadsheet automation (without actual spreadsheet programs) but it reminds me how outdated it is (and why we need to make externals programs to insert data in them).
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
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    I see Quadra Values as how society expects you to behave at different points in your life, but not necessarily how a person will act at that age.

    Most office work, for example, rewards Gamma traits of efficiency and the power struggle while frowning on Alpha's laidback nature and "pie in the sky" ideas. However, depending on those in the office, it will affect the general atmosphere, especially in the case of the head of the department.

    One of the bosses from this company I sometimes visit is an ILE and every time he makes a childish joke that gets him in trouble. Like the one time he posed at the beach with two white women, him being a colored man, and posted on social media, "Check out my delicious peanut butter sandwich!" The whole office was laughing, but his wife wasn't. Everyone feels comfortable around him and his office feels more like a classroom with no teacher than anything else. Chatter and jokes everywhere. The other floors of the building are dead silent in comparison with people only focused on their own workspace.

    Another example would be this LII and ESE couple I know. Together for sixty years and they still fool around and have tickle fights like young lovers. They said they couldn't stay at the old age home because it was too stuffy and boring.

    Of course, not every type can enforce their Quadra Values on their surroundings. I would imagine extroverts and their values take precedence over introverts. Makes me wonder whose values would win out if extroverts, evenly divided by Quadra, were to coexist in an enclosed space. Would they cancel each other out? Would the Se-doms dominate? Would be quite the interesting experiment if it hasn't been done yet.
    I want to believe, therefore I question everything. I pursue the truth, therefore I eliminate all lies. I crave the ideal, therefore I defy the world.

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    Well each specific type kinda does roles that step a bit outside quadra norms/stereotypes (while always still agreeing with their core quadra values) The quadra stereotypes are based on truth and are very useful, but of course they aren't THE truth.

    I must admit (and you had me lolling in a good way) that writing 'fuck the police' over the overpass is a very beta ST/young SLE male thing to do. However, like with deltas the IEEs are usually less stuffy than the LSE and more open-minded so they will probably write a more official yet still-with-a-pleasant-tone article in Psychology Today about how the police system should be reformed and be a bit 'nicer/lenient' so to speak (without going overboard or being campy about it) - which would ironically piss off their LSI conflictors who like being more direct about certain things and certain types of criminals. Technically, beta SLEs don't like 'LSE/EII delta cops' and Moral Fi police things- as there are actually plenty of LSIs who become police officers I think.

    Also (most) SLEs have shitty 1D Fi but even they know things like pedophilia is wrong- and might get annoyed at how IEEs seem to be two-faced and criticizing pedophilia while at the same time trying to get the community to 'understand pedophilia' & call for better tolerance/understanding to ppl with pedo urges- as the SLE more better understands that you have to be more direct and less two face-y if you want to deter people from doing something immoral.

    An SLE I know said once 'we should kill all kiddy diddlers.' It's still Fi polr (as it doesn't take into account a lot of pedophiles were abused themselves and maybe don't deserve that, and also have a close relationship to the victim) but it also agrees with the basic bitch mainstream Delta-volunteering-at-a-soup-kitchen sense that 'it's wrong.' (also an example of how both Fe & Fi valuing can come to a similar moral conclusion about something.)

    IEIs would probably secretly/not-so-secretly agree with the SLE writing 'fuck the police' over the over-pass but will try to teach the SLE to discuss and implement their views in ways they might actually be taken better by society at large as they better understand how sometimes you have to Fi manipulate Karens from a safe distance to get what you want in the long run instead of just destroy, bulldoze them or piss them off (IEIs are IEE like kinda in this sense), but the SLE would be like 'naw man you have to be a bad-ass' and then the IEI will go 'but you're going to go prison if you do that!...' and the SLE won't listen, and get sent to prison anyway. =D

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    Default Age and Quadra Values

    Quadra values are very broad terms, and don’t really consciously register because they’re so basic and broad that the mind doesn’t catch it. At best, they’re just basic stereotypes which makes it easier for people to identify themselves and align with a vague set of “values” that they probably don’t even truly value nor noticed. It’s called the Barnum-Forer Effect.

    People don’t change, not their core personality, anyway. People change their external habits and circumstances to temporarily exploit the situation to give them a favorable outcome (whether that’s achievement, appearances, etc.) but they don’t change. I’m not talking about about “once a cheater, always a cheater” bullshit. I’m talking about the internal mechanics of how a person derives at the decisions they make will always remain constant, not the action itself. So if someone has a record with cheating, it’s due to their interior workings that they’ve rationalized why it’s ok to cheat and then they go about doing it. People leave tells all the time, you just have to recognize it.


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    Last edited by SnatchYourWeave; 10-11-2020 at 04:59 AM.

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    @Jo Lande

    I think one of the biggest misconceptions about Socionics is the idea that Alphas are silly and goofy, while Gammas are dry and boring. I think the vocabulary used to describe Gammas gave off an Sp/So vibe, while those that describe Alphas sound very So/Sx. However, that is simply not the case. A person can value resource accumulation, and still be pretty fun and interesting (think of those female SEE rappers out there). Similarly, there are some ILEs (Ti subtypes) that come across as pretty typical people despite being slightly more debate-oriented than usual.

    This also creates a lot of misunderstandings in regards to ESI, and SEI. According to Socionics, ESI are strict, judgemental, and serious, while SEI are artistic, kind, and sensitive. In reality, however, some of these characteristics are related more to instincts than actual sociotype. Both ESI and SEI who are Sp first tends to be more of the "to-your-taxes" sort, except SEIs tend to be less blunt about it due to Fe. Similarly, ESIs who are either So or Sx first don't typically have the standard bitchy vibe people associate with this type, and can come off as even goofier than ILEs.

    Also, please note that I'm referring to individuals, and not Quadras values as a whole. Maybe children are more interesting than adults, but even that is not certain, since adults have more freedom and entertainment available to them. Even though children have more time for games and fun activities, they live in more structured environments than adults. So, I guess maybe people should avoid typing by instincts, and look at value systems instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I'm like 33..
    Cool banger.

    What do you make of this whole 80's revival thing that's been occurring for the past 5-6 years or so?

    I myself am not a big fan. Especially playing the music that's not made today, 80s electro pop does not age well.

    This on the other hand..



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    Based on my system, it is interesting to note that irrational dyads dominate the stages with the most freedom, while rational dyads dominate the stages with the most rules and responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    @Jo Lande

    I think one of the biggest misconceptions about Socionics is the idea that Alphas are silly and goofy, while Gammas are dry and boring. I think the vocabulary used to describe Gammas gave off an Sp/So vibe, while those that describe Alphas sound very So/Sx. However, that is simply not the case. A person can value resource accumulation, and still be pretty fun and interesting (think of those female SEE rappers out there). Similarly, there are some ILEs (Ti subtypes) that come across as pretty typical people despite being slightly more debate-oriented than usual.

    This also creates a lot of misunderstandings in regards to ESI, and SEI. According to Socionics, ESI are strict, judgemental, and serious, while SEI are artistic, kind, and sensitive. In reality, however, some of these characteristics are related more to instincts than actual sociotype. Both ESI and SEI who are Sp first tends to be more of the "to-your-taxes" sort, except SEIs tend to be less blunt about it due to Fe. Similarly, ESIs who are either So or Sx first don't typically have the standard bitchy vibe people associate with this type, and can come off as even goofier than ILEs.

    Also, please note that I'm referring to individuals, and not Quadras values as a whole. Maybe children are more interesting than adults, but even that is not certain, since adults have more freedom and entertainment available to them. Even though children have more time for games and fun activities, they live in more structured environments than adults. So, I guess maybe people should avoid typing by instincts, and look at value systems instead.
    Yeah, looking back, I did fall back on stereotypes a bit much. It's an easy thing to do, and it was not my intent to label all Alphas and Gammas that way. I was attributing typical Quadra Values (Biases admittedly grabbed from Socionics descriptions) to certain real-life scenarios, though every individual type would differ from those stereotypes. The boss in my post is about as good an example of Alpha and ILE attributes I could think of, but I know not all ILEs are like that.

    Admittedly, I haven't delved enough into how the instincts affect the types. Enneagram as a whole, actually. I've only studied enough to understand how it operates in a vacuum, but I think it's about time I started looking deeper. Thank you for bringing it up.

    And yes, I agree that the stereotypes of children being fun and adults boring don't always equate to real life. Some children are plain. Some adults are the life of the party. All these psychological categories are just trying to apply order to the chaotic nature of life, and that's why it's more of a guide than universal law. It can never account for every individual and their circumstances.

    So once again, I apologize if my post relied too heavily on stereotypes.
    I want to believe, therefore I question everything. I pursue the truth, therefore I eliminate all lies. I crave the ideal, therefore I defy the world.

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    @Jo Lande
    Dw, everyone has their own opinions, and Socionics is not really an exact science either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    have you guys realized that people in different life stages have different values? For example, teenagers in general are more Beta regardless of their actual type, and seniors are more likely to endorse Delta values. Have you noticed this as well, and do you think this might account for some of the mistypes? Not only that, but people can alter their personality during transition periods like the early-teen crisis, quarter-life crisis, and mid-life crisis..
    After my big emergency surgery I was with my mother in her back yard talking to a female acquaintance that had come to check on me, when I still wasn’t sure yet how much time I would live. When she left, my mum said to me she couldn’t believe that woman and I were of the same age. Even after all the distress the sobering up experience had put me under my mum still saw me in a way that allowed her to think I seemed much younger and innocent, in a way.

    For alphas it’s like a minor maladjustment (e.g.: for years wondering why you’re generally removed from the turbulent emotions you think others experience and removed from reality in a way) and it comes across so that the others can see it in you. That probably is a dividing line: no matter the age, the mental setup is there and plays a role in how we cope with crises. I’m not saying no alteration but alteration within the limits of the psyche.
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