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    Exclamation ESFp

    __
    Last edited by DEAD; 08-17-2021 at 11:12 PM.

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    Give it a little narrative context. A pull...

    How about SEE at work or in dual encounters or developing their strengths and managing their challenges while in a non gamma environment, etc

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    Well it's no secret that I've been having a hard time with SEEs lately so it would be great if you could change my mind about them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    Well it's no secret that I've been having a hard time with SEEs lately so it would be great if you could change my mind about them.
    It might be better to change your expectations about SEE's, @calm.

    SEE's are going to be providing you with fun and variety, and you are going to be providing them with advice on how to stay out of trouble. Anything else and you are trying to get blood out of a rock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It might be better to change your expectations about SEE's, @calm.

    SEE's are going to be providing you with fun and variety, and you are going to be providing them with advice on how to stay out of trouble. Anything else and you are trying to get blood out of a rock.
    What a terrible oversimplification. This sounds more like IEE-SLI, honestly.

    ETA: It is an oversimplification for that relation, too.
    Last edited by voider; 10-22-2020 at 04:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voider View Post
    What a terrible oversimplification. This sounds more like IEE-SLI, honestly.

    ETA: It is an oversimplification for that relation, too.
    Descriptions of types get worse as the distance between the describer and the described increases. Plus, I'm not the most perceptive person I've ever known. So, criticism accepted, 100%.

    @voider, could you write your own description of what ILI's can expect from SEE's?

    And what SEE's see in ILI's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It might be better to change your expectations about SEE's, @calm.

    SEE's are going to be providing you with fun and variety, and you are going to be providing them with advice on how to stay out of trouble. Anything else and you are trying to get blood out of a rock.
    lmao. I knew an LIE that mentored an SEE at work and it was kind of like that. The LIE clearly wanted the SEE to be rational, practical, conscientiousness, about his work, all things his dual is, but not SEEs. He got frustrated and stopped mentoring him. I was kind of surprised at the time because socionics says activators are a good relationship, but that wasn't happening. Then you have me, who's probably LII, but we got along pretty well. But maybe I was his mirror anyway or maybe I acted like that at the time I was there. I bet on a personal fun level he would have gotten along with the SEE more and less with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    lmao. I knew an LIE that mentored an SEE at work and it was kind of like that. The LIE clearly wanted the SEE to be rational, practical, conscientiousness, about his work, all things his dual is, but not SEEs. He got frustrated and stopped mentoring him. I was kind of surprised at the time because socionics says activators are a good relationship, but that wasn't happening. Then you have me, who's probably LII, but we got along pretty well. But maybe I was his mirror anyway or maybe I acted like that at the time I was there. I bet on a personal fun level he would have gotten along with the SEE more and less with me.
    The success or failure of relationships depends to a great extent on what you are trying to get out of them. I get along fantastically well with LSI's as long as we are doing fun, relaxing things. As soon as we start to try to work together, our differences become glaringly obvious. They're not doing it wrong, and I'm not doing it wrong, but we're not doing it together.

    Someone called Mirage a relationship of increasing relaxation. It may be that Activity is like that, too. It's fine as long as the point is to have fun, but as soon as it's time to get something done, it's not so much fun anymore.

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    my thread now!!

    It is true that a part of the SEE-ILI relation is the SEE getting the ILI to engage more with the world and look things from a brighter side, as well as the ILI being cautionary and warning the SEE in any endeavours they might attempt that the ILI does not see as particularly fruitful or are maybe even dangerous.

    But reducing it to that is a disservice, really.

    Se-Ni duality, the way I see it, is supposed to break you out of your shell. Except the metaphorical shells for the Se base and the Ni base are in opposition: the Ni base is gripped by paralysis of action, the Se base is gripped by paralysis of forethought or insight. That is not to say each type is incapable of getting out and doing things or self-reflection. However, in my experience, self reflection has always been much easier when I've had someone guide me through it, or some sort of external outlet to process it. The mockery and stereotype that Se bases are incapable of considering the metaphysical is hilarious, because we are, and might even give more merit to it than the intuitives because it feels 'important' in a way. Still, I can only speak for myself in this context. At least for me, who's willing to work on myself and get to know what makes me who I am, I generally appreciate conversation that forces me to consider internal aspects of the self that I would otherwise never think of. So that's my shell.

    I do think ILIs are plagued with inaction that's born from an overly negative perspective. I haven't had many dual interactions but from the conversations I have had with some, they seem to appreciate or at least admire my willingness to try things just to see if they will work, rather than giving up before I've even tried. It's not really about finding "fun" things to do, although I'm sure many appreciate that.

    All this being said: I think it would take pretty mature people on both ends to make duality work. That's what I've always said. Especially for the Se-Ni axis, duality seems quite daunting. You're completely changing your worldview. The Ne-Si axis seems a bit more mellow... You're merely adjusting your worldview.

    @Adam Strange

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    Ni doms have a mystical allure. We intuitively “just know” things

    Other functions (Te-Fi) are also important in dualities.

    Fi as Mobilizing Function (ILI)


    The individual longs for establishing stable personal relationships with other individuals based on mutual trust and understanding where deeper and private feelings and experiences can be easily shared. However, the individual lacks the initiative to establish such relationships and usually expects others to make gestures in that area, admiring those who do so. In the context of extroverted ethics (Fe) as a vulnerable function, it should be emphasized that these types especially value emotional bonds where feelings go unsaid between partners, and are simply "understood."

    Fi as Creative Function (SEE)


    The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function. The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.



    Read this sentences again;
    ILI-In the context of extroverted ethics (Fe) as a vulnerable function, it should be emphasized that these types especially value emotional bonds where feelings go unsaid between partners, and are simply "understood."

    Then;
    A girl-student by the name of Laima (The Politician) gave a good description of this type when she tried to describe the hero of her dreams: He must be handsome and smart, with big and sad eyes, not talkative. He does not tell compliments, and by that he creates an impression of his inapproachability. He is taunted by myriads of problems, which, in my opinion are nothing to be bothered with. I am attracted by his sadness, seriousness, so I try to amuse him, to raise his spirits, to make him happy. If such a boy is present at a party, I wouldn't be bored.
    ILI - Te


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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post


    RE: Laima

    I like challenges, but I don't like edgy anime protagonists. The real challenge would be trying to get with an LII, since they're meant to be conflictors and piss off the SEE, not an ILI Sad Boy. And why would he be at a party? That sounds like real torture to the ILI's Fe PoLR. Go to a business conference or something if you want to actually find an ILI because finding them at a party sounds really unrealistic (yeah, they might go if really forced to, but finding them at a party? Come on...) Parties are boring when you try and seduce sad boys. Just go get laid or something and have some fun. That's what they are for.
    "...not an ILI Sad Boy..."

    Of course not, but Fe PoLR
    Descriptions of Dual Relations by Gulenko
    ILI-SEE
    4. Fe: vulnerable function of INTp and demonstrative function of ESFp
    The SEE doesn't like it when the ILI actively pours out his emotions. He prefers that the ILI quietly sits with a serious and somewhat melancholic look in his eyes. The ILI himself needs to have emotional stability to be able to work. He enjoys relaxing and spending his time in a meditative state during which he can contemplate about the sublime, the wholeness of the inner world, and so on. The SEE is able to protect and shield the ILI from clamorous, boisterous emotions. Questions and discussions on this aspect are not appropriate; they can destroy these dual relations. The SEE should without any questions protect the ILI from any external turbulent pressurizing emotional influences by means of absorbing and dissipating them himself.
    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ulenko#ILI-SEE
    "...And why would he be at a party? That sounds like real torture to the ILI's Fe PoLR. Go to a business conference or something if you want to actually find an ILI because finding them at a party sounds really unrealistic..."

    But this Laima's wish, so...
    ILI - Te


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    Some ILI pictures (Fe PoLR)
    ILI - Te


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkBlue View Post
    The SEE doesn't like it when the ILI actively pours out his emotions. He prefers that the ILI quietly sits with a serious and somewhat melancholic look in his eyes. The ILI himself needs to have emotional stability to be able to work. He enjoys relaxing and spending his time in a meditative state during which he can contemplate about the sublime, the wholeness of the inner world, and so on. The SEE is able to protect and shield the ILI from clamorous, boisterous emotions. Questions and discussions on this aspect are not appropriate; they can destroy these dual relations. The SEE should without any questions protect the ILI from any external turbulent pressurizing emotional influences by means of absorbing and dissipating them himself.
    Ah yes, me and the dual:


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    Bruh...
    ILI - Te


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    No SEE thread is complete without the SEE king himself:


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    Why are ILI-SEE duality descriptions seem a bit sick to me? Do some ILIs/SEEs enjoy what they read about their duals and their potential relationship with them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Why are ILI-SEE duality descriptions seem a bit sick to me? Do some ILIs/SEEs enjoy what they read about their duals and their potential relationship with them?
    Some people are sick. Including people who wrote the descriptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    Duality is overrated, go out and enjoy life. Find someone you connect to. Enjoy the relationship. Have fun.
    You're beta (SLE), not gamma. Just like any other mistyped betas. Beta quadra members are here:
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...11-Beta-Quadra
    Have fun
    ILI - Te


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    Bruh wtf, Loooool. Mad? No
    Party guys are more like SLE
    Last edited by INTprocrastinator; 12-03-2020 at 10:15 PM.
    ILI - Te


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    SEE's have Te-Fi values (pragmatism). There are too many SEEs in the business world. The most serious quadra is the gamma quadra
    ILI - Te


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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Why are ILI-SEE duality descriptions seem a bit sick to me?
    mb other values problem. it's alien. they do not suffer there. until noone is killed - it's good healthy relations

    > Do some ILIs/SEEs enjoy what they read about their duals and their potential relationship with them?

    They should, in case were not mistyped to those types. Also it's useful to have communications with good and bad IR people to understand the difference.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    @DEAD
    @voider


    Wtf is Fi? What is creative Fi like? Is it something you think about, or just instinctively feel and know? Or something you just do? Both?

    Do you see a big difference between you and Fi dominants?

    Do the big blanket descriptions lumping Gamma & Delta Fi together accurately describe what Fi is like for you IRL?


    Last edited by inaLim; 12-03-2020 at 10:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTprocrastinator View Post
    SEE's have Te-Fi values (pragmatism). There are too many SEEs in the business world. The most serious quadra is the gamma quadra
    Lol, I fear SEE is the least serious of the Gammas then. All SEEs I know either be like "I work this business office job to have enough dough to live in Mexico surfin' and partying with the girlzzz everyday for four months straight every summer" or working in less paying social worker/arts/sports/public relations/construction worker jobs.

    They can be ambitious(Te HA) but their plan in life is not to live to work but to work to live. They love freedom too much to build a career in business most of the time. I see the other Gammas way more often in the business world. Maybe the SEE you see are ESI-Se. Having Te as inferior makes one take it much more seriously than as Hidden Agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Lol, I fear SEE is the least serious of the Gammas then. All SEEs I know either be like "I work this business office job to have enough dough to live in Mexico surfin' and partying with the girlzzz everyday for four months straight every summer" or working in less paying social worker/arts/sports/public relations/construction worker jobs.

    They can be ambitious(Te HA) but their plan in life is not to live to work but to work to live. They love freedom too much to build a career in business most of the time. I see the other Gammas way more often in the business world. Maybe the SEE you see are ESI-Se. Having Te as inferior makes one take it much more seriously than as Hidden Agenda.
    Smart's SEEs are very ambitious. They are quite different from stereotypes. I guess I should have written this first
    ILI - Te


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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    @DEAD
    @voider


    Wtf is Fi? What is creative Fi like? Is it something you think about, or just instinctively feel and know? Or something you just do? Both?

    Do you see a big difference between you and Fi dominants?

    Do the big blanket descriptions lumping Gamma & Delta Fi together accurately describe what Fi is like for you IRL?


    I'm interested in hearing an answer on this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTprocrastinator View Post
    Smart's SEEs are very ambitious. They are quite different from stereotypes. I guess I should have written this first
    Ambitious how?

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTprocrastinator View Post
    Smart's SEEs are very ambitious. They are quite different from stereotypes. I guess I should have written this first
    If you mean to insinuate that SEEs that aren't ambitious aren't "smart" you don't understand Fi creatives at all. The people I was referencing are no stereotypes. They are humans that tried to choose their paths willingly. Out of every type, I'd think a Gamma would understand that intuitively. Intelligent SEEs make great leaders, they can rise to the top and encourage people around them to give their best. I wouldn't let them deal with the logistics of any business though, that's a job for Te egos.

    I type JFK as SEE. Here some quotes:

    Things do not happen. Things are made to happen. Every accomplishment starts with the decision to try. ~ JFK
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. ~JFK
    Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly. ~JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    If you mean to insinuate that SEEs that aren't ambitious aren't "smart" you don't understand Fi creatives at all. The people I was referencing are no stereotypes. They are humans that tried to choose their paths willingly. Out of every type, I'd think a Gamma would understand that intuitively. Intelligent SEEs make great leaders, they can rise to the top and encourage people around them to give their best. I wouldn't let them deal with the logistics of any business though, that's a job for Te egos.
    "If you mean to insinuate that SEEs that aren't ambitious aren't "smart" you don't understand Fi creatives at all"
    -The answer I wrote was for your comment.

    "Intelligent SEEs make great leaders, they can rise to the top and encourage people around them to give their best"
    -Actually that's what I wanted to say

    Those I met were very ambitious. They can be the dominant subtype. But ambition is related to the "Se function".
    ILI - Te


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    Quote Originally Posted by INTprocrastinator View Post
    Those I met were very ambitious. They can be the dominant subtype. But ambition is related to the "Se function".
    It depends what your ambition is maybe you're defining ambition in a Se-Te way I dunno(any type can be ambitious in his own way), but i wouldn't relate Se to business ambition. I would rather relate Se to notions of power, influence and self-confidence. The boxer Muhammad Ali is another famous SEE-Se:



    SEE-Fi seem way more mellow.

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    JFK seems to be the presidential example of the SEE Gulenko describes, although that's debatable. For the ILI in his life, look at Ted Sorensen. Other options include LIE or ILI for both respectively, making them mirrors, but SEE makes good sense.

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    Many SEEs remind me of kids who are told not to put their fingers in light sockets or not to poke the family pets but they can't seem to resist the temptation. If asked why, they usually said that they were curious or it was just an urge. As they grow older, they just seem to find for more risky things to poke.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 12-12-2020 at 01:45 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    What has this thread become?



    Yes, you are all getting the comic sans treatment because I'm dissapointed.
    There is something cool about ESFps that this entire website can't comprehend. They make them into versions of ESFjs with shades of Sts built in. The issue is there are alpha NTs who have themselves mistyped and so are currently comprehending a version of ESFp that's a kind of cool dude bro.

    If you want to get a better description of Se, check out both smilex' s descriptions and also inalim for her (him?) idea of what a socialable Se looks like. They are human savy, not some steam punk cyber jock comic book cliche.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    Yeah, people idealise Se a lot and they look at people like Jocko Willnk and think that all Se bases are like that lunatic (okay, granted he's an SLE). Most of them don't wanna join the military. I mean, there are a bunch of other ways to push yourself and other people that are as meaningful. Not just physically, but mentally as well. Tony Robbins is an SEE (commonly agreed upon) and he seems like a relatively normal person who isn't yelling at people/bullying them (actually, he's kinda calming to listen to in a way).

    https://youtu.be/_Sf3vMMErwg?t=395

    People have these ridiculous ideas about Se and Se bases and they idealise it so much to the point where it is trollable, you know? Most of the SEE I know are pretty chill, but they're still grounded, in control. Influencing people, being suave, confident. All without being bullies. They have that Gamma-ness and business-like demenour without being Beta and OTT, if that makes sense? Like, I only really show-off and pull out the stops if I want to make a big impact and a last impression on people during networking or something.
    I'm going to be clear about Jocko Willink,

    I know he does a lot of Se. But, I think he is like a pathological version of a ESTj with the need to "be perfect" and "ultra responsible". Many other points. Basically he is more of a foreman, over a marshal. I know he IS a retired Marshal, or whatever, but I don't see that as his best attributes, which goes to show any type can do any career because socionic "roles" - better yet, niches, are not stereotypes.

    Look at the people Jocko attracts in his circles as well. Not beta quadra.

    I should finalize this point by saying much of what I say is a subjective interpretation of socionics, which I know is more a art, not a science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    You know what I think, though? People assume because he's "tough" and has "endurance" and can "be dramatic in his delivery" that it's ESTp-SLE. But I do see a lot of Te in him. Regardless, he's definitely an ESTx. Strong use of Te and Se.
    Exactly dude. Lots of logic of actions, basically his Se extends to "get at it"

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I'm going to be clear about Jocko Willink,

    I know he does a lot of Se. But, I think he is like a pathological version of a ESTj with the need to "be perfect" and "ultra responsible". Many other points. Basically he is more of a foreman, over a marshal. I know he IS a retired Marshal, or whatever, but I don't see that as his best attributes, which goes to show any type can do any career because socionic "roles" - better yet, niches, are not stereotypes.

    Look at the people Jocko attracts in his circles as well. Not beta quadra.

    I should finalize this point by saying much of what I say is a subjective interpretation of socionics, which I know is more a art, not a science.
    I've listened to Jocko's podcast he does not value Fi. He is older and wiser but if you hear stories of how he acted when he was younger he sounds like an SLE. Try to find the stories of how he used to treat his wife or his friends you will see a clear lack of Fi. Plus you can see Te but where is the creative Si? I don't see that at all.

    I think he is more rational in temperament than an SLE and I have always been suspicious of him being an LSI. The way he gets annoys by Echo's comments sometimes could be a sign of Ne PoLR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImOutThere View Post
    I've listened to Jocko's podcast he does not value Fi. He is older and wiser but if you hear stories of how he acted when he was younger he sounds like an SLE. Try to find the stories of how he used to treat his wife or his friends you will see a clear lack of Fi. Plus you can see Te but where is the creative Si? I don't see that at all.

    I think he is more rational in temperament than an SLE and I have always been suspicious of him being an LSI. The way he gets annoys by Echo's comments sometimes could be a sign of Ne PoLR.
    All great points. He does seem like the kind of dude that needs help relating to others, I'm referencing his trouble with his kid (s?).

    Weak but, valued Fi?

    The rationality part is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    All great points. He does seem like the kind of dude that needs help relating to others, I'm referencing his trouble with his kid (s?).

    Weak but, valued Fi?

    The rationality part is good.
    I do agree that LSE is possible.

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    Willink seems rational. I think Richard Marcinko could be a Se Dom, probably SLE.



    Highschool dropout to masters in poly sci, creator of Seal Team 6 (the team that killed Bin Laden) and Red Team 5 (showed it was possible to capture U.S. bases, hijack a US nuclear submarine, and bomb the president's jet), and bestselling author. He knows he's the real deal, he's proved it, he doesn't have to be over the top.


    I think there cartoon hulk Se Doms who fit the stereotype, but not most. And there are also LSIs, LSEs etc trying to become it.

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    I feel like most ppl aren't trying to overcome what they are... But they do sometimes get lost in the traps from other ppl's projections...

    It's really important for some ppl to define what other ppl are... WEAKNESS.

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    Just a question, how are SEEs as friends? Do they have the tendency to "use" their contacts that they become more of a taker than a giver in their relationships?

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Just a question, how are SEEs as friends? Do they have the tendency to "use" their contacts that they become more of a taker than a giver in their relationships?
    If they respect you they won't. If they don't... that's another story. I used to heavily dislike an SEE at first for how she seemed to use certain people like puppets, shallowness, selfishness, but now we're best friends. Usually it's the opposite, people like her a lot at first and then grow more disillusioned as they get to know her, basically realizing what I did when I first met her. I think seeing all her flaws really helped our relationship, she would call me out on my sad loserfag bullshit too which most people are too pussy to do in real life.

    If you're a polite pushover expecting polite pushover behavior back you're probably gonna feel used by SEE, sure. But it's pretty easy to sidestep that, just offer them help even when they don't ask for it and ask for favors back. Bam. Now, you are letting them use you, and using them back. If that doesn't sound appealing then a one-use middle finger and glare will solve that. Maybe. Honesty isn't too bad though, they respect that. An even more effective solution would be a clingy overly sensitive doormat who licks their boots all the time, they hate those.




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