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    FINE.. you win... weirdos.. for now.. I'll be back .. t(-.-'t)


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    I have to strongly diagree, germany is delta ST on an institutional level while our biggest party is Delta, the others are Alpha/Beta and besides our teethless liberals the biggest political gamma influence is our oppossitional party, that is getting villified by the media as much as possible.

    Germany is mostly controlled by Deltas with a lot of Alphas in the media, gamma is usually in economic contextes or in our biggest oppositon party, but political gamma influence does not really exist besides it.
    Public life is being censored by Alpha Fe- while people get supressed by aristrocratic Delta STs.

    Where i am from Gammas are very rare tbh, the types most noticebly are LSI and LSE tbh.

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    I don't follow all of his reasoning.

    Gamma values might be dominating in our society but this is not the same thing as individuals with a gamma type being in the vast majority of people in our world.

    He also says that he and his wife are from central quadras and that this is why the number of people that come to them to get typed from central quadras is high - they noticed alot of gammas and also a fair amount of betas. But this isn't all people from society, since he admits they probably have more popularity among betas and gammas, and thus those types are more represented among their clients. But in the general population?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    I have to strongly diagree, germany is delta ST on an institutional level while our biggest party is Delta, the others are Alpha/Beta and besides our teethless liberals the biggest political gamma influence is our oppossitional party, that is getting villified by the media as much as possible.

    Germany is mostly controlled by Deltas with a lot of Alphas in the media, gamma is usually in economic contextes or in our biggest oppositon party, but political gamma influence does not really exist besides it.
    Public life is being censored by Alpha Fe- while people get supressed by aristrocratic Delta STs.

    Where i am from Gammas are very rare tbh, the types most noticebly are LSI and LSE tbh.
    I'm pretty sure Merkel is Alpha LII.. the CDU tho, not sure.

    Idk man.. this is Gamma in terms of politics and I quote Gulenko:

    Critical and anti-dogmatic processes are taking place in intellectual life - what is now called postmodernism. Postmodernism is a broad philosophical doctrine of an eclectic sense, based on a mixture of genres and blurring of boundaries. Postmodern aesthetics in theater, cinema, painting, and literature, as in a mirror, reflects the ideological system of the Gamma Quadra, which is commonly called Western values.
    e_e pretty sure Germany is Gamma too.

    The most Beta versions of Germany would be the 2nd and the other Reich we don't speak about.. led by him who shall not be named.. who was EIE.
    Otto von Bismarck is some type 8 SLE..

    So, Quadra Beta, sacrificing the personal for the public, adheres to an orientation towards others, that is, towards large groups. It is in this sense that it should be put in the first place as the socially most influential quadra. It most fully embodies the ideological system that is commonly called oriental values: hard work, frugality, educational achievement, balancing individual and societal needs, and deference to authority.
    Alpha society is probably not going to happen, thats more like the nuclear family:

    The family-type economy is organically suitable for the Alpha Quadra. With such an organization of work, all family members work according to their strengths and abilities. No one is overworked, but at the same time, they do not take time off. Produced and stocked approximately as much as the family can consume. This type of economy is fully adapted to the surrounding natural landscape.

    Deltas.. hmm not sure how that would look like? I quote Gulenko:

    For the first time, the delta trend was vaguely captured by the anarchists of the 19th century. Peter Kropotkin, in particular, believed that in the state as a bureaucratic mechanism for coordinating the behavior of people with opposite interests due to their different social status, there would be no need. The future will belong to small teams united by a common goal. In this case, cooperation will prevail over rivalry. In our century, psychologist and philosopher E. Fromm wrote a lot about the transition from Gamma to Delta. He dreamed of such a structure of society, which he called "humanistic idealism." He imagined this painful process as a change in the attitude towards possession (centrality) by the attitude towards being (peripherality). In socionic terms, the nonviolent "being" of people who voluntarily abandoned the "grasping" F-values ​​of people (he means Se)
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 09-21-2020 at 06:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I'm pretty sure Merkel is Alpha LII.. the CDU tho, not sure.

    Idk man.. this is Gamma in terms of politics and I quote Gulenko:



    e_e pretty sure Germany is Gamma too.

    The most Beta versions of Germany would be the 2nd and the other Reich we don't speak about.. led by him who shall not be named.. who was EIE.
    Otto von Bismarck is some type 8 SLE..

    Alpha society is probably not going to happen, thats more like the nuclear family. Deltas.. hmm not sure how that would look like? I quote Gulenko:

    I do type her as SLI, i do think that she is far from being democratic, she is having this patriachal leadership style of fatherly authoritarism, she is even being called 'mutti' which means as much as mommy by many people here.
    She is a person that relies a lot on her power and is quick to luqidate people that do not fit with her agenda, for me this is not really characteristic of LII.

    Still the CDU is quintessentially delta, most cuckservatives are (which is a gamma kind of word, criticizing their Fi from the pov of gamma Fi which is coupled with Se)

    The Reich was mostly beta, yes basically the whole NSDAP had a very betaish culture while Htler was EIE and so on.
    The Beta gamma shift came with the new left in the 1970s, the Red army Faction was a militant group, that while sailing under Communistic Flag really did a lot together with the civillian elements to ensure a sociaetal shift from Beta to gamma.
    Now i think we are at the end of Delta quadra, i did not notice the transmittion, but from an Central Fi valuing quadra to a non-centra quadra there will propably not be so much observable Se action as with a Beta-Gamma shift.

    Alpha society is for me something like Weimar, very devout of values and traditional structures, trying out a lot of stuff, messing everything up big time until betas have to come and get a strong grip on things to be able to clean up. So maybe, merke even is LII and together with her sorros money, - inviting tons of refugees - she allready did the Delta-Alpha Transition, being NE creative should be a good condition to Benefit and activate Delta STs into quadra progression.

    I do think that we are somewhere between the last breaths of Delta and a new shift to beta now here, but instituational we have a very Delta character here while the media gives a lot of alpha vibes tbh.

    Delta culture and society is really your typical conservertive stuff, if you look at the culture of CSU/CDU you will see a culture very delta.
    It is best to witness it irl in my opinon, but to get a good overwiew (from ESI perspective) reading stratis articles is always a good idea regarding quadras imho:

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Delta_Quadra:_The_Complex_of_Clipp ed_Wings_by_Stratiyevskaya

    Also, intelectual sphere is extremly dogmatic right now, modern gammas tend to be a lot into concepts as race realism while at the moment you are not allowed to scratch on the dogmas of society without being socially offed

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    new baseless heresy. how interesting
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    new baseless heresy. how interesting


    The USSR is pretty much a beta society as well, Stalin LSI.
    Putin's Russia is sort of similar, he is LSI as well, so.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 09-21-2020 at 08:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I don't follow all of his reasoning.

    Gamma values might be dominating in our society but this is not the same thing as individuals with a gamma type being in the vast majority of people in our world.

    He also says that he and his wife are from central quadras and that this is why the number of people that come to them to get typed from central quadras is high - they noticed alot of gammas and also a fair amount of betas. But this isn't all people from society, since he admits they probably have more popularity among betas and gammas, and thus those types are more represented among their clients. But in the general population?
    His argument seems to be that Gammas are more needed/valuable in society than the other quadras, it kinda makes sense as gammas have Te blocked with Se... and therefor there is more of them in general.
    I'm not sure about the data he has to back this up. Even if there are more Gamma typings, its still a rather restricted sample size.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post

    I don't agree with him. Betas also dominate in the economy (and politics, and religion, and the military, and popular culture). Beta functions can give some ambitious person very good tools for self-expression, and making an impact, and gaining centre-stage, and getting influence; it's not exactly full of of people who sit on the sidelines of important arenas of power.
    Last edited by xerxe; 09-21-2020 at 06:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    I do type her as SLI, i do think that she is far from being democratic, she is having this patriachal leadership style of fatherly authoritarism, she is even being called 'mutti' which means as much as mommy by many people here.
    She is a person that relies a lot on her power and is quick to luqidate people that do not fit with her agenda, for me this is not really characteristic of LII.
    SLI are not authoritarian, they value Si-Te-Fi-Ne... thats kinda as described, a craftsman. More live and let live... enneagram type 9-ish.

    Still the CDU is quintessentially delta, most cuckservatives are (which is a gamma kind of word, criticizing their Fi from the pov of gamma Fi which is coupled with Se)
    Do they tend towards decentralization and humanitarian beliefs? If so, then Delta, sure.

    I do think that we are somewhere between the last breaths of Delta and a new shift to beta now here, but instituational we have a very Delta character here while the media gives a lot of alpha vibes tbh.
    Imo its more like the decline stages of Gamma society, however the video mainly refers to the fact that to actually run society and global trade more Gammas are needed than the other types and therefor there should be more of them at least in theory.
    Delta culture and society is really your typical conservertive stuff, if you look at the culture of CSU/CDU you will see a culture very delta.
    It is best to witness it irl in my opinon, but to get a good overwiew (from ESI perspective) reading stratis articles is always a good idea regarding quadras imho:

    [URL="http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Delta_Quadra:_The_Complex_of_Clipp ed_Wings_by_Stratiyevskaya"]http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Delta_Quadra:_The_Complex_of_Clipp ed_Wings_by_Stratiyevskaya
    I'll be honest I have a hard time understanding Deltas... maybe because they are so far removed from me as a LSI. I can't tell if they are conservative & religious or hippie anarchists lol.

    Also, intelectual sphere is extremly dogmatic right now, modern gammas tend to be a lot into concepts as race realism while at the moment you are not allowed to scratch on the dogmas of society without being socially offed
    This was always true tho, whoever has power determines what the limits are and those are usually in favor of them keeping power.

    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I don't agree with him. Betas also dominate in the economy (and politics, and religion, and the military, and popular culture). Beta functions can give some ambitious person very good tools for self-expression, and making an impact, and gaining centre-stage, and getting influence; it's not exactly full of of people who sit on the sidelines of important arenas of power.
    true, but Ti-Fe with Se does not really care about business logic Te that much, so global trade, manufacturing and all these things that keep modern society afloat are not beta quadra's main interest.
    its why I can see the logic of "there should be more Gammas in theory" simply due to Te-Fi with Se.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 09-21-2020 at 07:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    SLI are not authoritarian, they value Si-Te-Fi-Ne... thats kinda as described, a craftsman. More live and let live... enneagram type 9-ish.



    Do they tend towards decentralization and humanitarian beliefs? If so, then Delta, sure.



    Imo its more like the decline stages of Gamma society, however the video mainly refers to the fact that to actually run society and global trade more Gammas are needed than the other types and therefor there should be more of them at least in theory.


    I'll be honest I have a hard time understanding Deltas... maybe because they are so far removed from me as a LSI. I can't tell if they are conservative & religious or hippie anarchists lol.



    This was always true tho, whoever has power determines what the limits are and those are usually in favor of them keeping power.



    true, but Ti-Fe with Se does not really care about business logic Te that much, so global trade, manufacturing and all these things that keep sodern society afloat are not beta quadra's main interest.
    its why I can see the logic of "there should be more Gammas in theory" simply due to Te-Fi with Se.
    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...s_a_supervisor
    Main characteristics:

    • Hierarchical leader of objective orientation.
    • When establishing contact he orients at the human factors.
    • Form of business activity is aimed at identification and use of intellectual resources.
    • The system of interaction with employees is based on the principle of paternalism - "paternal care". Focus on the traditional system of values.
    • In conflict situations he is characterized variability - can compete and cooperate to make compromises - depending on his goals.
    • Achieves good results by achieving collective interest of the group in pursuit of a common goal. Prone to authoritarian methods, but in a soft, "paternalistic" form. Mindful of the hierarchy.
    • Relation to ethical standards: his management in general is concordant with the generally accepted ethical and professional standards of conduct.
    • Motives and purpose: prosperity within the ethical standards by adhering to ethical duty; quest for profits usually within the law.
    Gammas are usually very undogmatic and democratic, gamma people would not repress freedom of expression in such a way as it is repressed in germany right now.
    Delta, from an Gamma POV is basically described by 'Soft authoritarism and moral/emotional blackmail' they usually act democratic and want to shine in a good light while striving for power and domination by humilating and letting others make consessions.
    Strati has described it in a very good way in the article linked.

    Delta is not really decentralisation in a classic sense, it is collectivism but not by a centralised structure but by by shared, enforced and dogmatic values.
    Delta Fi is Fi+ which is about collecting good boy points and social credit, for our very unhealthy delta society their kind of humanitarian believes includes humiliating yourself in the very same way as straty describes and inviting a refugee to fuck/rape your daughter to morally cleanse you from your sins and accomulate Fi+ by self denial and humiliation.

    Also typical globalists tend to be Alpha, there is something about the maximalisation of possiblities (Ne+) and the ignoring of Se matters while adhering to marxistic ti constructs that makes 'open borders' seem to make sense. Look at sorros, he is LII/ILE and the stereotypical people who were 'helping' taking care about the refugees were ESEs being activated by the Ne that this idea brought with itself.

    I agree that conforming to the status Quo can make a lot of gammas comply with it, it usually normie instinct stackings that can make them conforming with the Zeitgeist while subconsiously mixing it with their own quadra values, still i think globalism in its current form is very much an Alpha Quadra concept.
    Last edited by Itsme; 09-21-2020 at 07:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...s_a_supervisor


    Gammas are usually very undogmatic and democratic, gamma people would not repress freedom of expression in such a way as it is repressed in germany right now.
    Delta, from an Gamma POV is basically described by 'Soft authoritarism and moral/emotional blackmail' they usually act democratic and want to shine in a good light while striving for power and domination by humilating and letting others make consessions.
    Strati has described it in a very good way in the article linked.

    Delta is not really decentralisation in a classic sense, it is collectivism but not by a centralised structure but by by shared, enforced and dogmatic values.
    Delta Fi is Fi+ which is about collecting good boy points and social credit, for our very unhealthy delta society their kind of humanitarian believes includes humiliating yourself in the very same way as straty describes and inviting a refugee to fuck/rape your daughter to morally cleanse you from your sins and accomulate Fi+ by self denial and humiliation.

    Also typical globalists tend to be Alpha, there is something about the maximalisation of possiblities (Ne+) and the ignoring of Se matters while adhering to marxistic ti constructs that makes 'open borders' seem to make sense. Look at sorros, he is LII and the stereotypical people who were 'helping' taking care about the refugees were ESEs being activated by the Ne that this idea brought with itself.

    I agree that conforming to the status Quo can make a lot of gammas comply with it, it usually normie instinct stackings that can make them conforming with the Zeitgeist while subconsiously mixing it with their own quadra values, still i think globalism in its current form is very much an Alpha Quadra concept.
    its also good for business. Open borders means you can import and export with more ease. "A merchant has no nation." Also its easier to move the global workforce around and outsource production if needed, faster supply lines for parts and raw materials. Means you always have a strong supply of workers and can undercut the salary by sheer supply exceeding demand. A worker is a cog in the capitalistic machine, a cog has no race, creed, religion or nation and so on as these are irrelevant for the exponential growth of capital. They merely need to be able to do the job efficiently.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 09-22-2020 at 03:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    its also good for business. Open borders means you can import and export with more ease. "A merchant has no nation." Also its easier to move the global workforce around and outsource production if needed, faster supply lines for parts and raw materials. Means you always have a strong supply of workers and can undercut the salary by sheer supply exceeding demand. A worker is a cog in the capitalistic machine, a cog has no race, creed, religion and so on as these are irrelevant for the exponential growth of capital. They merely need to be able to do the job.
    Still, this is the lack of Fi and Ni, pure materialism, maybe it becomes more spirtual there than socionically.
    Maybe it does has to do with a very materialistic worldview and the desire to feel at home and welcome everywhere in the world.
    This is an accusation globalist materialists such as soros have always been facing, that they only do care for worldly things.

    I do see how this is a good argument form a Te perspective, still maybe it is more an SP first thing then.
    But yes, i do see how you can see this as something you could convince a Sp valuing Gamma with.
    Maybe it is really not so clear cut with the quadras. Hillary Clinton was Gamma NT too after all. (So/Sp)

    What i would see as typical Gamma capitalism still is not this though, it is more individuallistic than with the mega cooperations.
    Gama capitalism for me is early america, the wild west, everybody has his own gun and own base of power, having autonomy (and being quite exploitative)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    Still, this is the lack of Fi and Ni, pure materialism, maybe it becomes more spirtual there than socionically.
    Maybe it does has to do with a very materialistic worldview and the desire to feel at home and welcome everywhere in the world.
    This is an accusation globalist materialists such as soros have always been facing, that they only do exist and care for worldly things.

    I do see how this is a good argument form a Te perspective, still maybe it is more an SP first thing then.
    But yes, i do see how you can see this as something you could convince a Sp valuing Gamma with.
    Maybe it is really not so clear cut with the quadras. The female Hillary Clinton was Gamma NT too after all. (So/Sp)
    There are a lot of Deltas beating themselves up for the sins of empire.. so its a transition already to Delta? Hmm.. you have a point tho. That is kinda beyond the original goal of what i wanted to discuss about the video... but its there plain to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    There are a lot of Deltas beating themselves up for the sins of empire.. so its a transition already to Delta?
    I think we are allready in the area from Delta to Alpha somewhere, Beta is getting prepared for the big clash of ideologies.
    Not everybody playing this game has to be from the quadra that is predominantly imprinting society with its values, it is enough to be conformist, i think it just feels a lot more natural and you are better at surviving in a society that is close to your quadra values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    His argument seems to be that Gammas are more needed/valuable in society than the other quadras, it kinda makes sense as gammas have Te blocked with Se... and therefor there is more of them in general.
    I'm not sure about the data he has to back this up. Even if there are more Gamma typings, its still a rather restricted sample size.
    I don't think we're more necessary at all. My life's better with other quadras in it. Pretty sure that's a consistent thing.
    I don't see why gamma would be everywhere. I see so many Beta and Delta and Alpha in my gov and media...
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I don't agree with him. Betas also dominate in the economy (and politics, and religion, and the military, and popular culture). Beta functions can give some ambitious person very good tools for self-expression, and making an impact, and gaining centre-stage, and getting influence; it's not exactly full of of people who sit on the sidelines of important arenas of power.
    I agree.

    Also out of all the celebrities and youbers I've typed, beta is probably the most represented. For example, I've posted the types of youtube stars and interviews with various celebs I've typed in the "examples of alphas/betas/gammas/deltas" threads on this forum and the majority it seems go to the beta thread. I was a bit surprised since I would have that the distribution would be about equal. Gamma seems to come in second, alpha and delta are much less frequent, though they are encountered.

    This is of course based on my own typings and on my own choice people - but it's worth noting.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    FINE.. you win... weirdos.. for now.. I'll be back .. t(-.-'t)

    I just found this extremly interesting article, which relates to this thread.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.typelab .ru%2Fru%2Farticles%2Fvalu.html

    Machine translation is a bit poor, as always, but i find it very insightful

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    I just found this extremly interesting article, which relates to this thread.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.typelab .ru%2Fru%2Farticles%2Fvalu.html

    Machine translation is a bit poor, als always but i find it very insightful.
    The link is broken tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    The link is broken tho.

    For me it works now, but here is the orignial one: http://www.typelab.ru/ru/articles/valu.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    For me it works now, but here is the orignial one: http://www.typelab.ru/ru/articles/valu.html
    Yeah.. I posted these separately into each quadra sub-forum a while ago, translated them from Gulenko's website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Yeah.. I posted these separately into each quadra sub-forum a while ago, translated them from Gulenko's website.
    pffd, i thought i had found something special, Sad!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    pffd, i thought i had found something special, Sad!
    Proper non politically correct quadra descriptions. They are special.

  24. #24
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    Thank you, now i feel better. :<

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