Fe PoLR in females

[persimmonism]

In your experience, how is it still subtly apparent despite the influence of gender roles ?

Edit: compared to Fe PoLR in males.

[sbbds]

Just someone who’s slightly more quiet and weird than usual.

If she makes deadpan factual/categorical assessments (Te creative?) really well.

Being easily amused by loud, flamboyant people.

A gap in time before getting complex context-reliant jokes.

Big explosion of giggles or deadpan with less nuance than most in between.

[persimmonism]

Just someone who’s slightly more quiet and weird than usual.

If she makes deadpan factual/categorical assessments (Te creative?) really well.

Being easily amused by loud, flamboyant people.

A gap in time before getting complex context-reliant jokes.

Big explosion of giggles or deadpan with less nuance than most in between.

3rd: amused in a good or bad way?

[sbbds]

3rd: amused in a good or bad way?

Usually good.

[sbbds]

Devaluing Fe- if you pay attention she kinda just waits for the displays/emotional pleasantries to end and it's some sort of chore.
She's a counselor and of course i can't speak for her but i get the feeling her job is a bit of a painful point. She's also not good at it lol.
(One of the 2 people I've found myself irrationally disliking. you ever get that?)

Honestly a counselor who waits for emotional displays to end sounds like a terrible person universally.

[sbbds]

3rd: amused in a good or bad way?

More specifically, I think ILIs want to be impressed by passion.
SLIs get bewildered at first and want to be ‘swept away’ by emotions and fun.

[Sol]

Culture (what you call as "gender roles") should have no significant influence on psychilogical traits related to Jung types. Culture has no so detailed norms to relate to concrete place of model A.

You may understand dichotomies as T or F type directly. It's possibly to suppose directly the kind of ego function and such values. About functions to understand directly more than strenght and value is doubtful.

In case you notice you fit to some type more than other types by behavior - more possibly you have that type, but not that your behavior was strongly changed by the culture or other external factors.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

ime, Fe polr in ILI males will be more overtly assholeish and more 'anti-gay' kind of. Not anti-gay as in being against homosexuality but anti-gay as in being anti-gay, in the traditional meaning of the word before perverts took it over. Though some male ILIs happen to be both sure lol. They will just kinda psychologically deconstruct everything apart, which can be a bit serial killer ish depending on how extreme the Fe polr is. If Fe is kinda putting a pretty ribbon on things, then anti Fe would be tearing the ribbon apart and using the torn ribbon to strangle somebody you're mad at.

Fe polr in ILI females is definitely more subtle but still there. They will be more understanding and compassionate of people different than them I think, because females are naturally this way anyway regardless of type. I support mild forms of feminism as long as it doesn't get too narcissistic, because it seems stupid & self-defeating for me not to. Because although it makes me a Beta Male cuck (lol), most females have on average treated me better than most males have, and of course the only thing you really remember about somebody is the way that they made you feel- if there is a female I don't get along with tho it can be interesting. Although Fe polr ILI females will still be visibly annoyed if the Fe is coming on too thick; they seem to get especially mad/upset at ESE females (their conflictor) than anything. Whereas the male ones will get more generally mad at all Fe valuers.

Fe polr probably also accuses others of manipulation when it doesn't process it well. This is true for both genders. To be fair, Fe is manipulative =D But I think being emotionally upset by that is a thing of Fe polr.

Fe polr in SLIs is different than this. I'm too tired to explain it now sorry but it seems to be more about a level of mistrust rather than of raw sadism like in ILIs. Gammas are more directly and openly sadistic whereas Deltas are more caring, although can still be the most sadistic thinking they are being the most caring. Betas OTOH are perfect and don't ever do anything wrong. Hey, I don't have to be fair in every post. =D

[Great]

If they have to smile with their teeth, they look uncomfortable.

[Exodus]

In my experience it doesn't seem all that different. It may manifest more as shyness than in males, but that may have to do with Se.

Fe role tends to look a lot more different.

[The Reality Denialist]

Maybe it is either about making room for yourself (someone is in my comfort spot feelings get overwhelmingly amped up) or trying to entertain with forced manner (listen up everyone while the demeanor is very dry).

[lkdhf qkb]

My perception, applies to a lesser degree to ILI-Ni & SLI-Si females:
- drained when having to express Fe; fear of being embarrassed; looks 'forced'
- emotionally out of touch, have no clue how they come over
- can be very inexpressive because they don't know how to express their feelings, or express their emotions indirectly and expect others to 'read between the lines'; don't understand that "If you don't speak out, we can't hear you"
- inability to have any kind of emotional influence, whether positive or negative; can't make other people feel better about anything(but have good intentions nevertheless)
- interest in emotional feedback, but won't ask for it. Bury their heads in the sand when faced with interpersonal problems
- want to have the right to decide with whom they interact but don't know how to interact, so end up being very passive in their relationships

With males, add repression of feelings, little ability to keep in touch in friendships, "logical" Te-BS arguing when emotionally triggered, emotional inertia(sometimes it can feel like talking to a brick) and tendency to dwell on bad emotions for no reason.

PS: I wonder sometimes how a dual relationship with SLIs is supposed to work if they can't make me feel anything(other than being annoyed at how bad their emotional awareness is).

[Tzuyu]

My perception, applies to a lesser degree to ILI-Ni & SLI-Si females:
- drained when having to express Fe; fear of being embarrassed; looks 'forced'
- emotionally out of touch, have no clue how they come over
- can be very inexpressive because they don't know how to express their feelings, or express their emotions indirectly and expect others to 'read between the lines'; don't understand that "If you don't speak out, we can't hear you"
- inability to have any kind of emotional influence, whether positive or negative; can't make other people feel better about anything(but have good intentions nevertheless)
- interest in emotional feedback, but won't ask for it. Bury their heads in the sand when faced with interpersonal problems
- want to have the right to decide with whom they interact but don't know how to interact, so end up being very passive in their relationships

PS: I wonder sometimes how a dual relationship with SLIs is supposed to work if they can't make me feel anything(other than being annoyed at how bad their emotional awareness is).

damn, i thought being an emotional brick was just Aspergers + SA. not confident in my typing before this. the only people who like me in real life like my drawing and computer skills, not my actual personality, which has the effect of an emotional black hole.
that’s one point for abandoning society.

[Dr PissBender]

damn, i thought being an emotional brick was just Aspergers + SA. not confident in my typing before this. the only people who like me in real life like my drawing and computer skills, not my actual personality, which has the effect of an emotional black hole.
that’s one point for abandoning society.

That's so Fe polr, not knowing if people like you or not (though that might change if they send the 'I like you' information through Fi). For real, all XLI's I know are oblivious to that and say similar stuff as you do, as in people just liking what they do and not what they are. That could also be a feeling related to Fi mobilising plus Te2, besides the weak Fe.

[FDG]

I know a lot of female ILIs, not so many SLIs. Anyway, they're not really expressive, introverted, quite factual, interested in taxes, filling forms, procedures etc. can make really good "advanced" accountants or teachers. They have that typical ILI humor, males and females aren't different from that point of view. It must be difficult for them in societies where women are expected to be extroverted.

[lkdhf qkb]

@snek from your posts I think you're 100% (weirdo) SLI-Te. Leaving society won't actually 'solve' Fe Polr, you're just going to feel even lonelier. Your post seems a bit self-pitying and needy like "no one likes me for who I am". XEE-Fis would answer like "nooooo! don't think that, you're lovable! I'll give you love bleh bleh", but I prefer a more cerebral/DIY approach. What makes you think you know for what you're appreciated and for what not? What is this 'personality' you're talking about, that you think should be appreciated? What actions would make you feel appreciated? Could you ask those from your friends? These questions could help you work on Fi/Fe. Ok enough of the unrequested advice

PS: I often see older non-dualized SLIs get themselves a dog to alleviate the fear of abandonment and lovelessness(and bc they like to teach stuff and dogs are fast learners). Sad to watch when they start saying stuff like "you're my only friend buddy" to their dog imho. Other SLIs I see drown themselves in work, so that might be a way too.

[Tzuyu]

@lkdhf qkb

hmmm you're right. my post came off as a bit blackpilled emo******ry and unproductive wallowing. however the intention of the statement was mostly neutral, i don't resent anyone for not throwing themselves at me lol. it just seems like a fact. and as evidence of weak bonds, besides one person, no one has texted me through quarantine except to ask for help and favors. which, again, not resentful of. the state of being of mostly my fault. i don't easily get lonely either so perhaps visiting one or two human companions every once in a while are necessary for sanity's sake lol. also eking a tranquil existence in a rural cabin isn't really so much bourne of negative desires of fear and escape, more positive feedback loops of receiving a mental net benefit from a place of peace where i can fuck around with machines and explosions and no one would care. thanks tho <3

[Dr PissBender]

@snek from your posts I think you're 100% (weirdo) SLI-Te. Leaving society won't actually 'solve' Fe Polr, you're just going to feel even lonelier. Your post seems a bit self-pitying and needy like "no one likes me for who I am". XEE-Fis would answer like "nooooo! don't think that, you're lovable! I'll give you love bleh bleh", but I prefer a more cerebral/DIY approach. What makes you think you know for what you're appreciated and for what not? What is this 'personality' you're talking about, that you think should be appreciated? What actions would make you feel appreciated? Could you ask those from your friends? These questions could help you work on Fi/Fe. Ok enough of the unrequested advice

PS: I often see older non-dualized SLIs get themselves a dog to alleviate the fear of abandonment and lovelessness(and bc they like to teach stuff and dogs are fast learners). Sad to watch when they start saying stuff like "you're my only friend buddy" to their dog imho. Other SLIs I see drown themselves in work, so that might be a way too.

I met an SLI girl who was like this, yet she'd be an ass to whoever got near her. So I just decided to make fun of her for that. I think that's a better approach. Pity is pathetic.

Like, if you're gonna whine for being lonely, and then whine about people approaching you, then you're like a cartoon.

[Beautiful sky]

Basically ignoring people’s displayed feelings

[EUDAEMONIUM]

My dual has 1D Fe but its valued, I will initially be attracted to Fe PoLR types until I realize they don't show Fe at all even when I inject it in the conversation. Usually the Fe will seem cringey and awkward and I feel bad for them and I want them to stop doing it.

[Mila]

Basically ignoring people’s displayed feelings

This.

[DEAD]

PS: I wonder sometimes how a dual relationship with SLIs is supposed to work if they can't make me feel anything(other than being annoyed at how bad their emotional awareness is).

This is why I sometimes think duals are overrated. I mean, it's more about the person and how you experience them and how close you are, rather than 'how good you look on paper'. If the SLI isn't working, get rid of them. Someone else can have em.

[The Reality Denialist]

Well, I know one ILI who is like an elephant in the miniature porcelain store when it comes to handling people face to face manner as nothing seems to register. He must be neurologically quite massively abnormal but pretty clearly massive case of Fe PoLR. I don't think it is purposeful from his part.

[FDG]

My perception, applies to a lesser degree to ILI-Ni & SLI-Si females:
- drained when having to express Fe; fear of being embarrassed; looks 'forced'
- emotionally out of touch, have no clue how they come over
- can be very inexpressive because they don't know how to express their feelings, or express their emotions indirectly and expect others to 'read between the lines'; don't understand that "If you don't speak out, we can't hear you"
- inability to have any kind of emotional influence, whether positive or negative; can't make other people feel better about anything(but have good intentions nevertheless)
- interest in emotional feedback, but won't ask for it. Bury their heads in the sand when faced with interpersonal problems
- want to have the right to decide with whom they interact but don't know how to interact, so end up being very passive in their relationships

With males, add repression of feelings, little ability to keep in touch in friendships, "logical" Te-BS arguing when emotionally triggered, emotional inertia(sometimes it can feel like talking to a brick) and tendency to dwell on bad emotions for no reason.

PS: I wonder sometimes how a dual relationship with SLIs is supposed to work if they can't make me feel anything(other than being annoyed at how bad their emotional awareness is).

You're the ExFx Type you're supposed to make them feel stuff.

[lkdhf qkb]

You're the ExFx Type you're supposed to make them feel stuff.

To a certain degree yes, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some emotional reciprocication coming from SLI/ILI. Personally I don't want to date an ice cube(maybe IEE-Fi does?). I don't ask for much; you can't with them anyway, but a "thanks" / "I missed you" / "you're special to me" go a long way. Weakness in a function shouldn't be a lazy excuse for not using it; so let's not go into "they are the Si-dom types so they should clean my diapers" territory.

Btw, ExFx means being fine with taking initiative on the emotional side of things; but these initiatives have to lead somewhere, and not be discarded into some bottomless Fe-Polr pit. I'm not here to spend all my time convincing or manipulating a lost cause to feel things for me.

[FDG]

To a certain degree yes, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some emotional reciprocication coming from SLI/ILI. Personally I don't want to date an ice cube(maybe IEE-Fi does?). I don't ask for much; you can't with them anyway, but a "thanks" / "I missed you" / "you're special to me" go a long way. Weakness in a function shouldn't be a lazy excuse for not using it; so let's not go into "they are the Si-dom types so they should clean my diapers" territory.

Btw, ExFx means being fine with taking initiative on the emotional side of things; but these initiatives have to lead somewhere, and not be discarded into some bottomless Fe-Polr pit. I'm not here to spend all my time convincing or manipulating a lost cause to feel things for me.

Then good luck with some Te-EJ where it´ll end in shouting matches. You´re complaining about minor hiccups. Not saying "thanks" is not Fe polr, many Fe polr are quite kind and docile people in a relaxed environment.

[Northstar]

Classic IEE is complaining about others and then projecting it on them as if they were the ones nagging. The perfect partner would seem to be someone who never demands and never complains, and what they'll get in return is complete freedom from initiating emotional contact or even hanging around too much. I guess it's an acceptable trade for SLI. They're the ones that are expected to do most of the compromising in that dyad. I've seen SEI and other IEE get scornful treatment from IEE (the former are "weakling crybabies" and the latter are "fishing for sympathy with self-pity") so they definitely don't seem to want much emotionality.

[lkdhf qkb]

Then good luck with some Te-EJ where it´ll end in shouting matches. You´re complaining about minor hiccups. Not saying "thanks" is not Fe polr, many Fe polr are quite kind and docile people in a relaxed environment.

Lol I don't get where you get all your assumptions from? I never said that Te-EJs are better for me or that all ILIs or SLIs are hopeless; I never even said I wouldn't date one. I wrote "I wonder sometimes how a dual relationship with SLIs is supposed to work if they can't make me feel anything". In general, SLIs are really cool, I never condemned the whole type, and there are definitely individual differences in how good they are with Fi/Fe. I caricatured a bit on purpose in my previous posts, so that people get the point. I don't really get why you're triggered when I say they should work on their Fi/Fe ? Fi/Fe is not really the biggest deal in IEE-SLI dual relationships anyway; it's Ne/Si. Might be different for LIE/ESI though

Not saying "thanks" is not Fe polr, but not expressing emotions is(in this case it would be gratitude); don't get fixated on the specific form it takes. Btw, I choose the standards I want for my relationships, what might be "minor hiccups" for you are red flags for me. It's as simple as that. If that doesn't conform to the schema you have, you can just go mind your own business

[lkdhf qkb]

Classic IEE is complaining about others and then projecting it on them as if they were the ones nagging. The perfect partner would seem to be someone who never demands and never complains, and what they'll get in return is complete freedom from initiating emotional contact or even hanging around too much. I guess it's an acceptable trade for SLI.

I'm fine with demands and complaints, as long as they are told tactfully. In fact I welcome them most of the time, and that's the "Fe-Polr problem" I'm talking about, most SLIs never say when they are hurt, need me or want to spend more time with me; and having to read between the lines sucks. I don't like hard reproaches like "you're my husband you should be there for me" like those I hear from betas though.

What you wrote is a bit of a caricature of how IEE/SLI works. Freedom to take the most confortable path, dedication to relieve each other from unnecessary stress like "emotionality" and freedom of taking opportunites when they arise is what both IEE and SLI look for. It sounds like a paradox, but my dedication to my partner expresses itself through my dedication to support her freedom and give her the space she needs. That's the irrational delta way.

They're the ones that are expected to do most of the compromising in that dyad. I've seen SEI and other IEE get scornful treatment from IEE (the former are "weakling crybabies" and the latter are "fishing for sympathy with self-pity") so they definitely don't seem to want much emotionality.

It's only compromising if the SLI wants the IEE to commit for something he's not ready to; that can work both ways. I've been in the opposite situation where the more I tried to be nice with an SLI girl, the more she distanciated. Ended up ghosting me. Not all IEEs are messed-up assholes btw

PS: if you have anything contructive to add to the IEE/SLI dynamic, pls open a thread/pm me, let's not hijack this thread
Edit: @Northstar Upon reflection, I think the "asking for someone who never complains or demands so as to be free of any deeper engagement" is more of a sx-last trait(specifically sp/so) than having to do with IEE/SLI. I've had some bad experiences too with SLI&SEI sp/so blaming me for being too demanding when they weren't able to deal with emotional rawness, not seeing how superficial and unengaging they come across to me. I've learnt to dial it down a bit and to expect less from them too.

[Rebelondeck]

In order to properly analyse information processing systems, all biological influences should be removed. If subtle influences remain, the analysis would be invalid. When female and males of the same type are compared, the differences should only be biological/chemical and their associated non-cognitive drives.

a.k.a. I/O

[grumpyvic81]

In order to properly analyse information processing systems, all biological influences should be removed. If subtle influences remain, the analysis would be invalid. When female and males of the same type are compared, the differences should only be biological/chemical and their associated non-cognitive drives.

The issue is whether you can even remove all the biological influences tbh. How would information even make sense out of its original (i.e. biological) context?

[grumpyvic81]

Yes!!!
i mean some other people i've talked to about her don't seem to notice this specific trait (they just generally think she does a bad job for other reasons) but i do
we also absolutely don't get each other it's kinda incredible the extent of it.. she's on neptune i'm on venus

I did have an ILI female counsellor once. She was actually able to display genuine sympathy/empathy when she tuned in, whenever she could deeply personally relate to what I was saying, but I did want someone better at tuning in and mirroring. I could however see her being good for other people. For people who would like a quite logical approach in therapy, I think.

[Rebelondeck]

The issue is whether you can even remove all the biological influences tbh. How would information even make sense out of its original (i.e. biological) context?

It would make as much sense as comparing someone raised in an upper middle class western society to a person of the same sex and type raised in a Syrian refugee camp. It takes a trained eye to separate out type from the prejudices, beliefs, conditioned behaviour and other assorted baggage that comprise someone's makeup; I'm certainly not always successful at doing that although my percentages have gone up over the years. I'm a very hands-on INTj due to how I was raised and many who know me would likely peg me for an S-type like both my parents.

a.k.a. I/O

[grumpyvic81]

It would make as much sense as comparing someone raised in an upper middle class western society to a person of the same sex and type raised in a Syrian refugee camp. It takes a trained eye to separate out type from the prejudices, beliefs, conditioned behaviour and other assorted baggage that comprise someone's makeup; I'm certainly not always successful at doing that although my percentages have gone up over the years. I'm a very hands-on INTj due to how I was raised and many who know me would likely peg me for an S-type like both my parents.

I just plain would not try to find the "same IEs" like that

[ContractedCriminalboy]

I work with a female SLI. I don't believe she's ever made a single facial expression but a deadpan one in the entire year we've known each other and clearly doesn't get into the group atmosphere or celebrations, sometimes even disappearing back to her work in the middle of it. I'm an SLI as well but make a conscious effort to work on my Fe to better manage socializing so I tend to be rather smiley and somewhat expressive in conversation which always comes across as awkward as hell with her as she doesn't react to it at all so I just drop that act when I talk with her and it goes much better lol. All in all, I can't say it's any different with her being female, just standard Fe-Polr same as you'd expect in a male SLI.

[Dr PissBender]

SLI's are shit, I don't ever want to dualize.

[Dr PissBender]

Tbh im jk, SLI's are not shit, but they tend to hate me thus im butthurt and say they're shit so i can seem cool

[grumpyvic81]

ime, Fe polr in ILI males will be more overtly assholeish and more 'anti-gay' kind of. Not anti-gay as in being against homosexuality but anti-gay as in being anti-gay, in the traditional meaning of the word before perverts took it over. Though some male ILIs happen to be both sure lol. They will just kinda psychologically deconstruct everything apart, which can be a bit serial killer ish depending on how extreme the Fe polr is. If Fe is kinda putting a pretty ribbon on things, then anti Fe would be tearing the ribbon apart and using the torn ribbon to strangle somebody you're mad at.

Fe polr in ILI females is definitely more subtle but still there. They will be more understanding and compassionate of people different than them I think, because females are naturally this way anyway regardless of type. I support mild forms of feminism as long as it doesn't get too narcissistic, because it seems stupid & self-defeating for me not to. Because although it makes me a Beta Male cuck (lol), most females have on average treated me better than most males have, and of course the only thing you really remember about somebody is the way that they made you feel- if there is a female I don't get along with tho it can be interesting. Although Fe polr ILI females will still be visibly annoyed if the Fe is coming on too thick; they seem to get especially mad/upset at ESE females (their conflictor) than anything. Whereas the male ones will get more generally mad at all Fe valuers.

Fe polr probably also accuses others of manipulation when it doesn't process it well. This is true for both genders. To be fair, Fe is manipulative =D But I think being emotionally upset by that is a thing of Fe polr.

Fe polr in SLIs is different than this. I'm too tired to explain it now sorry but it seems to be more about a level of mistrust rather than of raw sadism like in ILIs. Gammas are more directly and openly sadistic whereas Deltas are more caring, although can still be the most sadistic thinking they are being the most caring. Betas OTOH are perfect and don't ever do anything wrong. Hey, I don't have to be fair in every post. =D

The bolded means what...? Too much drama, too much flattery, too much "irrational emotional" behaviour, too much emotional persuasion, ....?

As for emotional manipulation, I have been upset by it before myself, and I've read Ti egos in general (try to) oppose it as a defense mechanism obv.