Last edited by persimmonism; 07-22-2021 at 08:14 PM.
This is great! It falls in line with how I view Ni too.i personally just jump from point to point (Ne) but there's always a pattern that emerges from it. I do have flexibility but it's always important that the data points fit the pattern, and then I can see a narrative emerging from it.
As for the time aspect of it, I'm really really stubborn with "my time". I know this is an annoying habbit of mine, but I can't be urged or hurried. I keep my own clock and if it doesn't sync up with others oh well. I used to have difficulty respecting the "time boundaries" of other people and didn't care about being late but I'm a bit older now, and I've been working as well so I don't really have a choice. It's like the world has a beat of its own, and I have my own beat. Sometimes it annoys me that other people don't really get it. I ignore things that don't fit into my rhythm, so it can appear like i don't have a good sense of time. I get super annoyed with people who talk about time management, because I already know how much time something will take so why bother? Conscious time managent makes things unnatural. It's bizarre to me that people can work like that. "I'm going to start studying at 3 pm and I'm going to study for 3 hours. I'll divide the time into these 15 segments and I'll take two bathroom breaks!" That has always been the wasteful and unnatural use of time. Because, if that person had followed the natural clock inside, he might not need the 3 hours. Does that make sense?
I also have a good grasp on history. I can take different events that happened around the world in a particular time period and make a narrative emerge. With Ni, there's always a focus on this larger story that is already there. Sometimes it feels like I already know everything, and I just need to discover my knowledge by playing around with ideas. In that sense, i can't really escape my Ni, even though I'm an Ni devalued type.
"once you adopt many and attack something from so many different angles you eventually whittle out the core"
I'm not completely sure about this, but this sounds a lot like Ne to me, or maybe holographic panoramic cognition... Ni is more understanding that certain actions, if undertaken, will lead to an certain outcome. It's common for beta NFs but especially IEIs to warn SLEs that their carelessness w people will lead to alienation from the group or a loss in their standing, for example.
"when I give advice to friends it's essentially me giving a bunch of different ways of looking at things to help, because perspective really is everything. and i hope that it's not that they choose and adopt one of the new perspectives i give, but rather that they combine all of the ones into a unified perspective. (mental image of a bunch of arrows converging into a dot, and if you're able to reach/be the dot you see everything around you with as little holes as possible (depending on how many arrows you were able to assimilate))"
and also this... "the bunch of different ways of looking at things" seems ne to me.
I feel like an Ni type would settle on one way to look at things based on the most probable outcome and give advice on that. Like they would be able to combine everything into one unified perspective themselves.
chocolatte is that what u meant? I'm not sure though bc it seems like you expand on that idea w/ "bunch of different ways of looking at things," which you said about yourself
Ni visualizes that which is not currently perceivable, which superficially appears to be related to Time. But you can visualize alot of things without those things being related to what you are doing in the future.
Ni /should/ be time to those who like things to be useful and concrete, since anything that is not related to the future but also not related to the present, to many people would be deemed "useless" and "baseless fantasies". So I guess you could say Time is what society wants Ni leads to control and be aware of, as that is something beneficial. But Ni could very easily just be fantasy in a timeless universe, unbothered by everyone else who adheres to and worships time so dearly.
This is like me saying Si is comfort, because I only see Si as useful for making things comfortable. But Si leads can do some quirky shit that basically brings the opposite of comfort in my eyes, but is a perfect world for them.
“when I give advice to friends it's essentially me giving a bunch of different ways of looking at things to help”
but the second part is what she hopes the other person does.
”i hope that it's not that they choose and adopt one of the new perspectives i give,...”
IEIs obviously have strong Ne too, so it’s not really a big conflict.
Edit: @pississippi actually I get what you mean, that that first part does sound like she’s seeking an Ip person instead. However then she says this:
”(mental image of a bunch of arrows converging into a dot, and if you're able to reach/be the dot you see everything around you with as little holes as possible (depending on how many arrows you were able to assimilate))”
This to me definitely sounds like IEI Ni looking for someone with HP perspective.
It's possible ”i hope that it's not that they choose and adopt one of the new perspectives i give,..is Ne devaluing, but I'm not really sure.
The next part of her sentence is what I don't understand...
"rather that they combine all of the ones into a unified perspective."
I don't know if this is an IEI thing- I thought they were more direct about their intuitive conclusions. Also, "unified perspective" sounds Ne as well
Ne ignoring doesn't quite literally mean the person is ignoring Ne. I say the ignoring function is a background program that just reminds you every now and then that it exists. Like, it pops its head out. I'm Te ignoring, but that doesn't mean I don't take Te into account. It's just a thing that pops out every once in a while and it factors into my decision making. It's not always on, like with LxEs for example.
IEIs are aware of the possibilities a situation holds but they disregard them to focus on one that they see is most likely.
But in order for them to understand what's most likely, they need to evaluate what's possible first
Hm but I understand the sense of urgency that comes with time... I have an internal alarm clock that only rings when I'm on the brink of on-time and late, so yeah I usually am 1-2 minutes late to everything. I never really forget my obligations, they are just waiting to spring up on me when the time I think I'll need to do it is coming close.
I'm not entirely sure. I always have this feeling of "there's something interesting here" so I jump from one point to another. It's like using Ne to Intuit puzzle pieces and seeing how they fit. Someone said that interacting with me can be like sculpting, that there's already a statue inside and it's just worked at. I would say, I can already see the statue in most situations. But it requires several angles of attack to arrive at it. Sometimes you even need to use unconventional means to do it. It's something like that.
Forgot to quote you @pississippi
I've heard this talk of multi-perspective view of things from ppl of other types, namely IEEs, SLEs, and ESIs.
Believe it or not, but this paragraph about HP cog is actually saying the very same thing:
"This cognitive style has much in common with the holographic principle in physics. A hologram (optical) is a statistically recorded interference pattern made by two beams of light which are transmitted and reflected from a single source (aka "Perspective"). Holographic technology allows us to obtain a three-dimensional image of an object. The hologram itself is an aggregation of stripes and spots exactly resembling the embedded object. The two beams of light are superimposed in such a way that every part of the hologram carries information about the whole.
In this way, by mentally superimposing multiple projections of the same object, Holographists reach a holistic view. To do this, they look at the image and select a desired angle of examination (hence the "work in progress" even though this is described from an LII pov) ...
[HP] actively uses the principle of perspective; unrestricted choice in point of view. The holographic approach is a progressive approximation towards the purpose, or away from it, accompanied by changes of perspective. The holographic process is carried out as if calibrating focus."
I remember this joke that I saw on this forum, but I can't link it because I don't remember. So I credit some other member with it. But someone posted a video of an LSI explaining how to open a can without a can opener. The member says "If that was an SLE he would just smash the can open." I guess it's somewhat like that?
I also remember reading in a Socionics post that the reason activation becomes painful is because the creative function of one activity partner imposes on the inferior of the other. So if I'm extrapolating, it would mean that the person with the inferior function finds it difficult to mitigate the creative use of it. In my own case, lead Fe would be "safer" to experience than creative Fe. I'm not entirely sure if that's the case. I'm just throwing ideas out.
But the more that I think about it, Ti is like a foundational aspect of my personality that I can't really change. Ne is like a superpower that I can use to get whatever I want. I create the world through Ne, in that sense. At the core, I feel I'm closer to a Ti-Ni combo. I sometimes resent that I am so inflexible in this regard.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
”Clicking” is more like socionics negativism as well. Positivism is more about adding more information. Negativism is reductionist.
This is part of why dynamic negativism (DA) and static positivism (CD) are seen as less stable than HP and VS are— because they’re contradictory, in a sense. A static “click” that actually adds more information is counter-intuitive (in the colloquial sense).
And she didn’t say that her dual “sees the one that’s the perfect fit”. She described it as seeing an image filled in from different angles, with as little holes left as possible. That’s literally HP cognition:
H-P cognitive style: LII, SLE, ESI, IEE
This is imprecise, multi-perspective thinking. It is mosaic-like. It works according to the principle of a hologram - the creation of three-dimensional representation of the object through the imposition of several of its sections. It is suitable for solving complex multifactor problems that have no clear-cut algorithms.
HP works by superimposing perspectives of different angles until a wholesome view with minimal “holes” is reached.
@pississippi To clarify, I don’t mean that vorticals can *never* click (as dual cognitive styles periodically switch), just that it’s not their regular modus operandi. HP thinking of their duals adds structure to their thinking. In that sense, VS thinking is kind of chaotic and “unstructured” at first, thus pretty similar to the idea of Ne.
I like to know how everything works dynamically as a whole and it bothers me when I lack insight on that. For example, at a former company I used to be dispatched to various different branches one by one, and it was only after the 3rd branch that I felt like I grasped how things all worked together. It was because I lacked sufficient stable information, not because I can’t structure the information. I have no trouble with doing that myself.
Similarly I like to have holistic approximate views of other things and of how the world works as a whole. I can achieve this when it comes to certain topics (S or T topics), but when it comes to complex, dynamic topics that involve human activity (e.g. when I first learned about inflation, I was really confused on whether it meant in a country or all around the world and I still don’t feel like I grasp all the implications of it because everything is so interconnected and dynamic), it can be really difficult for me. I always aim for a simple, objective bird’s-eye view, with just enough complexity to cover nuances enough for it to be really usable and workable with in most circumstances. Any extra, irrelevant information gets cut away first. Next contradictions are identified, and either resolved or the reason for their existence identified and examined. I repeat this until I reach an elegant structure with minimal and simple but strong rules.
I like to think of HP cognition as being like when you’re at the eye doctor’s and they’re trying out different lenses with differing levels of intensity to see if they fit you. You get several lenses layered on top of one another, and through that see a certain view which includes all of them and the excess gets cancelled out. Or if you layered colored cellophane strips or stained glass windows on top of one another, until only a particular shape/color of light is still able to shine through all of them: the answer.
Interesting post. I related to some of it as I'm IEI-Ni, but I am actually good at understanding just how long something will take.
I do like you saying, Ni sees all perspectives- I think this is part of why our role is very lookalike SEI-ish as diplomats and mediators etc. And ppl in authority often put me in 2nd command no matter where I go (both online and Real life) because they sense how fair I will be because of it. (and also of course assuming we're not incompatible types with each other etc) It sounds like I'm kissing my own ass but it's true- it *is* the awesome strength of four dimensional Ni.
Also though the dark side is probably why I'd make a bad judge or cop, I'm too soft and see all the underlying dimensions of how people turned out the way they did, instead of just focusing on one action or misdeed they did. For example I always really liked and related to those flashbacks on tv show where you learn just *how* the villain turned out to be such a bitch or prick or whatever. It makes me feel really deeply for them or something... a delta to me would be more like 'what you did was wrong. and you need to be punished for it, because it was wrong.' This doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of justice, and I can feel really enraged sometimes when an ethical mishap happens of course but I always will try to see all the sides of it with Ni instead of just joining the mob with the pitchforks. Te and Fe are basic bitch-y and follow the group with things like that, but Ni doesn't really.