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Thread: Psychopathy and Si

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    Lightbulb Psychopathy and Si

    psychopath.jpg
    Generally speaking, psychopathy is thought to be linked to weak Fi or something, and people generally consider SLEs and LIEs to stereotypically have more psychopathic tendencies.

    However, based on this career statistic I've found, psychopaths are the least likely people to be found in careers which are archetypically high in Si. Therapists (and some teachers) are the only people who aren't regularly involved with introverted sensing. I didn't include charity worker, because the majority of charities operate on Si principles (correct me if I'm mistaken). Even predominately logical careers like doctor, and craftsperson score low in psychopathy (I'm guessing that the majority of them are delta STs)

    The opposite correlation is slightly weaker for the other side, but it is obvious that a whole lot of the careers feature people with weak Si. There are a lot of EIE careers, and some that feature LIEs and a few ILEs. Like I said, the correlation is slightly weaker, and I can see LSIs, and SEEs working in some of them.

    Of course, not every EIE is a psychopath (some careers on the right are also dominated by EIEs to a smaller degree), and weak Si does not always translates to de-emphasizing Si. It is also possible that psychopaths cannot be properly typed do to certain biological factors. However, there seem to be something about psychopathy that de-values Si, and feeling (particularly Fi) may not be as relevant as previous thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    psychopath.jpg
    Generally speaking, psychopathy is thought to be linked to weak Fi or something, and people generally consider SLEs and LIEs to stereotypically have more psychopathic tendencies.

    However, based on this career statistic I've found, psychopaths are the least likely people to be found in careers which are archetypically high in Si. Therapists (and some teachers) are the only people who aren't regularly involved with introverted sensing. I didn't include charity worker, because the majority of charities operate on Si principles (correct me if I'm mistaken). Even predominately logical careers like doctor, and craftsperson score low in psychopathy (I'm guessing that the majority of them are delta STs)

    The opposite correlation is slightly weaker for the other side, but it is obvious that a whole lot of the careers feature people with weak Si. There are a lot of EIE careers, and some that feature LIEs and a few ILEs. Like I said, the correlation is slightly weaker, and I can see LSIs, and SEEs working in some of them.

    Of course, not every EIE is a psychopath (some careers on the right are also dominated by EIEs to a smaller degree), and weak Si does not always translates to de-emphasizing Si. It is also possible that psychopaths cannot be properly typed do to certain biological factors. However, there seem to be something about psychopathy that de-values Si, and feeling (particularly Fi) may not be as relevant as previous thought.
    People are usually born w psychopathy, therefore have a genetic predisposition to it... They have physiological problems with their brain; underdeveloped parts of the brain related to emotional regulation + impulse control ---> so what this implies is that they aren't necessarily going to be shaped/influenced/more likely to take X job just because they're a psychopath (that's more of a sociopath).

    And additionally, I don't think a "true" psychopath could be a CEO realistically speaking. (could be wrong about this) It's just that I think people would catch him (doing weird psychopathic shit) before he makes it to the top. True psychopaths lack empathy. Though, I think CEOs definitely DO have many overlapping traits of a psychopath.

    Furthermore, I'd think psychopathy would be more related to high si as opposed to low si.

    because the majority of charities operate on Si principles (correct me if I'm mistaken)
    Think about it, Si is more about avoiding internal discomfort and kinda doing what it wants to feel good inside.

    Who's more likely to do charities ISTp or ENFj??? ENFj of course. Lower si = less likely to focus on own needs.

    And If I recall, smilex gave an example of this:

    "One of the primary faults of Ej-Te+Si is that they tend to be so focused on their own needs that they toss away those of others. This pushing away creates space for them but also creates needless enmity which eventually will come back and bite one in the ass. But that's how socionics works."
    Focusing on own needs, narcissism, charming, being impulsive to satisfy oneself, etc...

    If anything it looks like higher Si would contribute to psychopathy more vs. Low si = focused on need of others

    PS: other quadras can also be psychopathic but probably through different mechanisms (Se power-dynamics, low fi etc)
    Last edited by fireee; 08-28-2020 at 01:53 PM.
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    I'm one of these Si psychopaths and an international spy.

    The name name is iNumb, I Numb Bra.

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    lol I like how inumbra can be so serious and deep in one post and make dumb Fe Hollywood jokes in others. (I'm a bad influence?)

    OP: I'm not sure what you're asking exactly but I view Si as the function of inner harmony or something. With yourself and others. It is why lie/eies can stereotypically come off as 'mean' or 'too abrasive' with their PoLR, they don't want inner harmony, they want to troll you with a drag queen glitter mask. In the case of EIEs. In LIE, they want to troll you cause you're not being as efficient as they want you to be or something and it's pissing them off idk. Or they want to be 'right' about something more than they want peace.

    I don't think psychopathy devalues Si inasmuch Si in a sense values harmony so much that anything less would come across as being psychopathic?

    I am thinking of the SEI woman I know irl. When comfortable with herself she makes these really humane and sweet/corny Fe jokes. She's also really genuinely nice and compassionate. She has a lot of empathy. It's Si sorta at its' over-the-top best. But I'm not trying to Mary Sue this person or anything cuz when she sees money, she also quickly grabs it for herself lol- I think part of her Te polr and she needs to feel safe with it or something lol.

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    Si leads are so gay

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    Psychopathy is related to anti social behavior, so if anything I would say that they're more likely to be extroverted I the traditional sense. For the diagnostic definition of ASPD, which is what I assume you're talking about here, it is necessary to exhibit impulse control issues and have a criminal record. The colloquial usage of the term psychopathy doesn't have any real meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    lol I like how inumbra can be so serious and deep in one post and make dumb Fe Hollywood jokes in others. (I'm a bad influence?)
    yes it's your pixie dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    Psychopathy is related to anti social behavior, so if anything I would say that they're more likely to be extroverted I the traditional sense. For the diagnostic definition of ASPD, which is what I assume you're talking about here, it is necessary to exhibit impulse control issues and have a criminal record. The colloquial usage of the term psychopathy doesn't have any real meaning.
    ah man, you're ruining the "fun" with this sobering notion. Peter pan is grounded.

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    Rates of psychopathy are much higher in areas where there is a significant power dynamics like religious leaders, police, doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc. Psychopaths can be quite successful because they often possess cognitive empathy (figuring out how to get into people's heads and using it to their advantage) but they lack affective (feeling what others feel) and compassionate empathy (feeling compelled to help others in need). The smart ones know how to adjust to the social rules and play along to get what they want.
    Last edited by Stance; 08-28-2020 at 01:11 PM.

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    First anything in psych we have to ask if this category is true, paradoxically a tool to use power against others (as many diagnoses are used as weapons) or with lack better word a combination of previous two that has gone out of hands (hysteria, drapetomia, adhd, bipolar, autism, depression all suffer from this) as people pour money on a shaky ground and obfuscate things into oblivion. Yes, drapetomia is real if society is real it could serve as some sort of upper level concept to describe everyday pressures.


    Second and this handles more about the truth: people label you based on signs but not for example based on cognition because resemblance of symptoms can be enough even if it refutes theory and here we begin to see abusive use of power.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synchrony View Post
    Rates of psychopathy are much higher in areas where there is a significant power dynamics like religious leaders, police, doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc. Psychopaths can be quite successful because they often possess cognitive empathy (figuring out how to get into people's heads and using it to their advantage) but they lack affective (feeling what others feel) and compassionate empathy (feeling compelled to help others in need). The smart ones know how to adjust to the social rules and play along to get what they want.
    I would say those are incorrect definitions of cogntive and affective empathy. Psychopaths probably lack both.

    Power dynamics correlate with Se in socionics, there was a guy on socionics.com commenting about how he had read a study about psychopathy and Se, and while I do wonder what he's referring to, I think this is correct: central quadra environments (beta and gamma) push people to be competitive and ruthless at the expense of empathy and thus towards psychopathy, since the latter correlates with lower empathy. The OP's statement about Si and lower tendencies towards psychopathy makes sense in light of that.

    Btw I'm not saying (since I know somebody will probably misundestand my words) that betas and gammas are psychopaths. But central quadra values tend to lead to greater tendencies towards psychopathy, and also towards narcissism. This is why I think centralizers need to be balanced with people from peripheral quadras. And vice versa, since peripheral values lead to inaction and that's not good either.
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 08-28-2020 at 01:40 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I would say those are incorrect definitions of cogntive and affective empathy. Psychopaths probably lack both.
    Cognitive empathy just means that you can figure out how the other person will react or think. Affective empathy is caring about what the other person is feeling. Psychopaths can have high levels of cognitive empathy because the way you torture a victim effectively is to figure out their vulnerabilities. In order to fit in superficially, psychopaths will often study other people for social cues.

    They just can't relate on an affective or compassionate level.

    https://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/ar...ccording-.html
    Last edited by Stance; 08-28-2020 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synchrony View Post
    Cognitive empathy just means that you can figure out how the other person will react or think. Affective empathy is caring about what the other person is feeling. Psychopaths can high levels of cognitive empathy because the way you torture a victim effectively is to figure out their vulnerabilities. In order to fit in superficially, psychopaths will often study other people for social cues.

    They just can't relate on an affective or compassionate level.

    https://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/ar...ccording-.html
    I always thought both forms of empathy were emotional, cognitive being more about "placing oneself in others' shoes" and affective being more about appropraite emotional response when face to face with a person. I think it was Alonzo who compared the former with Fi, and the latter with Fe.

    It seems I may be wrong though; Wikipedia seems to agree with your definition of cognitive empathy as something more cerebral.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I always thought both forms of empathy were emotional, cognitive being more about "placing oneself in others' shoes" and affective being more about appropraite emotional response when face to face with a person. I think it was Alonzo who compared the former with Fi, and the latter with Fe.

    It seems I may be wrong though; Wikipedia seems to agree with your definition of cognitive empathy as something more cerebral.
    The former is affective and the latter is compassionate. Cognitive is essentially being able to accurately assess mental states and mental processes. With only cognitive empathy, it becomes highly utilitarian. Ex. When I yell person A backs down and submits. Logic dictates that I should yell at Person A to get what I want.
    Last edited by Stance; 08-28-2020 at 02:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I always thought both forms of empathy were emotional, cognitive being more about "placing oneself in others' shoes" and affective being more about appropraite emotional response when face to face with a person. I think it was Alonzo who compared the former with Fi, and the latter with Fe.

    It seems I may be wrong though; Wikipedia seems to agree with your definition of cognitive empathy as something more cerebral.

    If you're interested, there is a whole book on the subject called Against Empathy: the case for rational compassion by Paul Bloom. I don't remember how good it was but it explained stuff well.

    When you go to a friend because you're sad you don't want them to start crying with you, it is much more reassuring if they are "rationally compassionate".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    Generally speaking, psychopathy is thought to be linked to weak Fi or something
    The essence of psychopathy is an excessive egocentric attitude, the lack of love and good attitude to people. It's not types related. Some types may better mask this. For example, F types may don't care about you but will prefer to show surfacely as they care - as this emotional impression allows to get more from you.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Being serious now I kind of think it's unhelpful to try to type psychopathy. Psychopaths have dysfunctional ethics (which isn't to say they all have excellent logic). So anyway their type is: ethics malfunction. That seems to be the only thing they all have in common. Other things like impulse control issues, some may have less difficulty with than others.

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    @Pyre

    I guess I should make a distinction between psychopathy and subclinical psychopathic tendencies. I'm not sure which of those two criteria the study was done on, and I should definitely look deeper into it. I'm also guessing that the characteristics were based on the Hare checklist. I do agree that the majority of the psychopaths would end up in prison, but then they would be excluded due to unemployment.

    Note: I think the statistic came from the book The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success, by Kevin Dutton.

    Also, I don't think its relevant whether those antisocial tendencies present in certain individuals are born or made. It could be that people become more psychopathic after taking on certain jobs, or it could be that people who are psychopathic are more likely to succeed there. However, I doubt truly empathetic people would do something like that, and it's more likely for the opposite to make decisions that serve their self interest. That's just my personal opinion, and I don't have anything to back it up.

    Yes, it is likely for EIEs to work in charities, but they usually work as founders, executives, and salespeople there.

    Si is about internal discomfort but Si users also focuses on the internal discomfort of everyone else. This is the same for all introverted functions. Se focuses on the one objective sensation, while Si focuses on multiple subjective sensations.

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    Also, I don't think its relevant whether those antisocial tendencies present in certain individuals are born or made. It could be that people become more psychopathic after taking on certain jobs, or it could be that people who are psychopathic are more likely to succeed there. However, I doubt truly empathetic people would do something like that, and it's more likely for the opposite to make decisions that serve their self interest. That's just my personal opinion, and I don't have anything to back it up.
    It is relevant because that's how u diagnose a true psychopath (looking into genetic defects in their brain). They are by definition born with it. Sociopaths are made. I think the word ur looking for is narcissistic. NPD they both have in common

    Yes, it is likely for EIEs to work in charities, but they usually work as founders, executives, and salespeople there.
    You also see them with a guitar and ringing the bell and smiling and screaming MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!! like a crazy person in freezing temperatures

    Si is about internal discomfort but Si users also focuses on the internal discomfort of everyone else. This is the same for all introverted functions. Se focuses on the one objective sensation, while Si focuses on multiple subjective sensations.
    This is armchair theory nonsense.

    Maybe if SLIs felt like it's the right thing to do (or they were part of an organization like a church or something), but they aren't gonna just step in and rescue everyone. They believe in being independent (marching their own drum beat) and often feel that most people need to learn to help themselves.

    For EIE, giving is in their nature, thus congruent to the job of charity

    and, here's a meta-analysis on psychpathic tendencies
    psychopathic tendencies are slightly more likely to become business leaders, this modest tendency was nowhere near the level suggested by the media. We also found that leaders with psychopathic tendencies were slightly*less*effective at their jobs in terms of fostering productivity. When leaders did have psychopathic tendencies, their employees really, really disliked them. Of course, the fact that people hate working for mean and impulsive bosses shouldn’t come as a surprise!

    However, further analysis of the many studies we examined suggested that there may be an optimal level of psychopathic tendencies for leadership effectiveness. That is, too much is obviously a bad thing, because recklessness and nastiness are likely to produce fear rather than motivation, productivity, and business success. But too*little*is apparently also a drawback. The boldness associated with psychopathic tendencies may manifest in a leader who is able to make difficult decisions or act in times of uncertainty—when other people are more constrained by fear.
    Last edited by fireee; 09-04-2020 at 03:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    @Pyre

    I guess I should make a distinction between psychopathy and subclinical psychopathic tendencies. I'm not sure which of those two criteria the study was done on, and I should definitely look deeper into it. I'm also guessing that the characteristics were based on the Hare checklist. I do agree that the majority of the psychopaths would end up in prison, but then they would be excluded due to unemployment.

    Note: I think the statistic came from the book The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success, by Kevin Dutton.

    Also, I don't think its relevant whether those antisocial tendencies present in certain individuals are born or made. It could be that people become more psychopathic after taking on certain jobs, or it could be that people who are psychopathic are more likely to succeed there. However, I doubt truly empathetic people would do something like that, and it's more likely for the opposite to make decisions that serve their self interest. That's just my personal opinion, and I don't have anything to back it up.

    Yes, it is likely for EIEs to work in charities, but they usually work as founders, executives, and salespeople there.

    Si is about internal discomfort but Si users also focuses on the internal discomfort of everyone else. This is the same for all introverted functions. Se focuses on the one objective sensation, while Si focuses on multiple subjective sensations.
    I'm not sure why I've been @'d. I think I made a post relating to this subject once elsewhere, but I'm unable to find it.

    Also, I don't think its relevant whether those antisocial tendencies present in certain individuals are born or made. It could be that people become more psychopathic after taking on certain jobs, or it could be that people who are psychopathic are more likely to succeed there. However, I doubt truly empathetic people would do something like that, and it's more likely for the opposite to make decisions that serve their self interest. That's just my personal opinion, and I don't have anything to back it up.
    People having tendencies and traits is much different than being diagnosed with the actual affliction, and these people who have tendencies and traits are still going to be capable of empathy and sympathy. It's worth noting that everyone has psychopathic and sociopathic traits, it's simply a scale of severity. Many psychiatrists do see kids are born as "being psychopathic" as sociopathic until they "go full blown" (similar to what onfireee said). So I do also see it as being relevant, since it clears up any confusion regarding psychopathy (Antisocial) and sociopathy.

    I was admittedly avoiding this thread and have been avoiding other threads similar to this one for specific reasons, mainly due to my views on how I wish to utilize typology. But oh well


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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    psychopath.jpg
    Generally speaking, psychopathy is thought to be linked to weak Fi or something, and people generally consider SLEs and LIEs to stereotypically have more psychopathic tendencies.

    However, based on this career statistic I've found, psychopaths are the least likely people to be found in careers which are archetypically high in Si. Therapists (and some teachers) are the only people who aren't regularly involved with introverted sensing. I didn't include charity worker, because the majority of charities operate on Si principles (correct me if I'm mistaken). Even predominately logical careers like doctor, and craftsperson score low in psychopathy (I'm guessing that the majority of them are delta STs)

    The opposite correlation is slightly weaker for the other side, but it is obvious that a whole lot of the careers feature people with weak Si. There are a lot of EIE careers, and some that feature LIEs and a few ILEs. Like I said, the correlation is slightly weaker, and I can see LSIs, and SEEs working in some of them.

    Of course, not every EIE is a psychopath (some careers on the right are also dominated by EIEs to a smaller degree), and weak Si does not always translates to de-emphasizing Si. It is also possible that psychopaths cannot be properly typed do to certain biological factors. However, there seem to be something about psychopathy that de-values Si, and feeling (particularly Fi) may not be as relevant as previous thought.
    wait....the average teaching style is good for ISTps, so how is teaching low in Si?

    And I think I may have had an Si-valuing therapist/counselor here or there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    wait....the average teaching style is good for ISTps, so how is teaching low in Si?

    And I think I may have had an Si-valuing therapist/counselor here or there.
    I've had quite a few Si-valuing therapists and psychiatrists as well.


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    all these Feeler types in controlling religious groups....I mean...I doubt psychopathy is less scary when a socionics' ethical type has the dark tetrad traits than when an NT has them. I've experienced cruelty or a lack of ethics with many a feeler. It's creepy. I did worry that I could turn off my emotions when I was a kid. But I survived significant domestic violence. My earliest memories are fleeing my home to stay alive. That's probably not a bad trait to have to be able to flip emotion on and off. I think people do it everyday. I have great hope for people with dark tetrad traits, given all the scientific literature not only on neuroplasticity but also the research on psychopathy: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-env...l%20in%20pain.

    "The notion psychopaths have no empathy at all was a bleak prospect. It would make it very hard for them to have normal moral development. "Now that we've shown they have empathy - even if only in certain conditions - we can give therapists something to work with," Prof Keysers told BBC News." Psychopathic criminals have empathy switch



    And I've worked in a prison and in a school and in a locked down home working with people who committed serious violent acts and had mental health or behavior disorders or dark tetrad traits. It gives you a lot of hope.

    I can't speak on whether NT types are more likely to have dark tetrad traits. I do think they might be more visible in NT types because we seem abnormal anyway. And our pro-social behavior is not always of the expected variety. I distract the teen with conduct disorder by pretending I'm fascinated by something on the other side of the room so a music therapist can leave without getting beaten up by him. That just makes me look weird to everyone but the grateful music therapist, but ...she just sees the 'strategy'. I put my physical body in-between drunk strangers fighting in the street for shock value once I've called the police. I chase a gang leader fleeing on foot down on my bicycle while I call the police after he left another gang member with his face a pile of plasma-goo in the street in front of me. Those things are pro-social/caring. They aren't seen as gentle. And I will be seen more as chaotic than nurturing doing those.

    I struggled working in a caregiving role. I hadn't chosen it, but it was available, and I enjoy working with kids in some ways. The other teachers sometimes relayed they felt they were satisfied doing good for individual kids in a moment. Everything in my skillset was projecting the kid's future and seeing what supports she'd still need and seeing systemic problems that would likely bar the most vulnerable babies and kids I worked with. I wasn't satisfied working in those roles because my kind of caring is strategic and planning based. And I was happy a few moments here and there in helping them, but my attention was called to by the macro problems and dynamics that would affect them or were affecting them.

    An ILI and I were both raised in a controlling religious group, and as young people we got into a discussion about ethical behavior being attainable in an NT way and not through NT types being coerced by certain controlling NF types (please note any person can be controlling or not) to care in the same way an NF would but that NT types had their own approach. There's a wikisocion article about agape love in Gamma NTs. Sounds like Buddhist lovingkindness, mentioned at the end of the following article, and the ILI and I touched on many concepts in this article:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ce-think-again
    Think empathy makes the world a better place? Think again …
    Paul Bloom

    The renowned psychologist’s new book is overturning received wisdom. Here, he explains the flaws in feeling others’ pain

    Sat 18 Feb 2017 19.04 EST

    It is often said the rich don’t make enough effort to appreciate what it is like to be poor and if they did we would have more equality and social justice. It’s said that whites don’t have enough empathy for blacks and that men don’t have enough empathy for women. There are many who maintain that if certain politicians had more empathy, they wouldn’t be endorsing such rotten policies. I used to believe this as well. Empathy has its merits. It can be a great source of pleasure, involved in art, fiction and sports. And it can be a valuable aspect of intimate relationships. But it’s a poor moral guide. It grounds foolish judgments and often motivates indifference and cruelty. It can lead to irrational and unfair political decisions. It makes the world worse.

    The main problem with empathy is that it works like a spotlight, highlighting certain people in the here and now, making their suffering salient to you. This can sometimes be a good thing. Indeed, one of the best arguments in favour of empathy is that it really does make you kinder to the person you are empathising with. This is backed by laboratory research, by everyday experience and by common sense.

    So if the world were a simple place, where the only difficulties one had to deal with involved a single person in some sort of immediate distress, and where helping that person had positive effects, the case for empathy would be solid.

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    But the world is not a simple place. One problem is that empathy is innumerate, favouring the one over the many. In one classic series of studies, psychologists asked some subjects how much money they would give to help develop a drug that would save the life of one child and asked others how much they would give to save eight children. People would give roughly the same in both cases. But when a third group of subjects was told the child’s name and shown her picture, the donations shot up – now there were greater donations to the one than to the eight. All of these laboratory effects can be seen as manifestations of what has been called “the identifiable victim effect”.

    This sets up a perverse situation in which the suffering of one can matter more than the suffering of a thousand. To the extent that we can recognise that the numbers are significant when it comes to moral decisions, it’s because of reason, not sentiment.

    Another problem with spotlights is that they only light up what you point them at. They are vulnerable to bias. Neuroscience provides many examples of how empathy picks favourites. Brain areas that correspond to the experience of empathy are sensitive to whether someone is a friend or a foe, part of one’s group or part of an opposing group. They are sensitive to whether the person is pleasing to look at or not and much else.

    These facts about empathy render it a poor guide to moral decision making. A reliance on empathy is part of the reason why people’s desire to help abused dogs or oil-drenched penguins often exceeds their interest in suffering millions in other countries or ethnic minorities in their own. It’s why governments and individuals often care more about a little girl stuck in a well than about crises that affect so many more.

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    Or consider charity and foreign aid. The philosopher Peter Singer points out that many people are “warm glow” givers. They give small amounts to multiple charities, motivated to spread their money across many causes because each one gives a distinctive little jolt of pleasure, like plucking small treats from a bountiful table of desserts. Their choices are driven not by a rational assessment of what can do the most good, but by the lure of stories and pictures of adorable animals and children.

    This doesn’t always lead to positive results. It turns out, for instance, that there is considerable debate over how much western aid to developing nations actually makes a positive difference — and a growing consensus that a lot of it has a negative effect. Many worry that the clearly kindhearted intervention of affluent westerners has made life worse for millions of people.

    This might seem weird — what could be wrong about sending food to the hungry, giving medical aid to the ill and so on? Part of the problem is that foreign aid decreases the incentives for long-term economic development in the areas that would most benefit from this. Food aid can put local farmers and markets out of business. These are the same sorts of concerns that arise domestically when it comes to corporate bailouts — the money might make things better at the moment, helping people keep their jobs, but it can have negative downstream consequences. Then there is the concern that food aid and medical care for combatants, including those involved in carrying out genocide, can actually end up killing more people than it saves.

    Also, the world contains unscrupulous people who strategically exploit our empathy for bad ends. For instance, the feelings that many have for needy children motivate other individuals to establish a steady supply and so there are orphanages that pay or coerce poor parents to give up their sons and daughters.

    Or consider child beggars. The sight of an emaciated child is shocking to a well-fed westerner and it’s hard for a good person to resist helping out. And yet the act of doing so may end up supporting criminal organisations that enslave and often maim tens of thousands of children and put them out on the streets. By giving, you make the world worse. Actions that appear to help individuals in the short term can have terrible consequences for many more.

    When we see one man oppressed or injured by another, the sympathy which we feel with the distress of the sufferer seems to serve only to animate our fellow-feeling with his resentment against the offender
    Adam Smith, 1759
    Many charities do wonderful work; kindness and charitable donations often make the world a better place in precisely the ways they are intended to. But doing actual good, instead of doing what feels good, requires coping with the problems of unintended consequences and being mindful of exploitation from competing, sometimes malicious and greedy interests. To do so, you need to be careful to avoid empathy traps.

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    Finally, empathy can spark violence; our feelings for the sufferer can motivate anger towards whoever caused the suffering. This ideas was summarised by Adam Smith in 1759: “When we see one man oppressed or injured by another, the sympathy which we feel with the distress of the sufferer seems to serve only to animate our fellow-feeling with his resentment against the offender. We are rejoiced to see him attack his adversary in his turn and are eager and ready to assist him.”

    There is now laboratory evidence for such a relationship – people who are highly empathetic tend to be more violent and punitive when they see someone who is suffering. There are many examples of this. Anti-immigrant rhetoric in the US and Europe is often motivated by vivid stories of the suffering of citizens, of rape and assault. When ****** invaded Poland, the Germans who supported him were incensed by stories of the murder and abuse of fellow Germans by Poles. As the United States and the United Kingdom prepared to invade Iraq over a decade ago, the media presented lurid tales of the abuses committed by Saddam Hussein and his sons. And should we move to an all-out war in Syria, we will see more and more images of atrocities, particularly having to do with children.

    I’m not a pacifist. I believe that the suffering of innocents can sometimes warrant military intervention. But empathy tilts the scale too much in favour of violent action. It directs us to think about the benefits of war, of avenging those who have suffered, rescuing those who are at further risk. In contrast, the costs of war are abstract and statistical and a lot of these costs fall upon those we don’t care about and hence don’t empathise with. Once the war is under way, one can try to elicit empathy for those who have suffered, particularly those on one’s own side, because now the costs have become tangible and specific. But by then, it’s often too late.

    These are some examples of how empathy leads us astray. But, still, you might worry that if we gave up on empathy, we wouldn’t do anything. We wouldn’t care about anyone or anything besides ourselves and the world would go to hell.I think this view reflects an impoverished moral imagination, a failure to recognise the other forces that can give us empathy’s benefits without all of its costs. There are all sorts of motivations for good action. There are concerns about reputation, feelings of anger, pride and guilt and a commitment to religious and secular belief systems. Most of all, there’s compassion, what the Buddhists call “loving kindness”, in which you care for others, but don’t feel their pain, don’t put yourself in their shoes.

    Still, I don’t deny the lure of empathy. It often just seems right to try to feel the world as others feel it, to experience their suffering vicariously, to listen to our hearts. The alternative – careful reasoning mixed with a more distant compassion – seems cold and unfeeling.

    A few years ago, I was on a radio programme talking about the last book I wrote — on the origins of morality in children — and got into a discussion with a pastor about how we deal with strangers, using the example of child beggars in the developing world. I tentatively raised the concern mentioned above, which I had recently read about, that giving to these beggars makes things worse, causing more suffering, and suggested we should stop doing it; we should use our money in better ways.

    Her response surprised me. She didn’t challenge me on the facts; what she said was that she liked giving to beggars. She said that handing over food or money to a child, seeing the child’s satisfaction, made her feel good. It’s an important human contact, she told me, not the sort of thing you can ever get by typing your credit card number into the website of a charitable organisation. She spoke in defence of empathy, of the intimacy of good acts.

    I said nothing at the time; her response made sense to me. But if I could answer now, I would say that it depends on what you want. If you want the pleasure of personal contact, go ahead and give something to the child, perhaps feeling a little buzz when your hands touch, a warmness that sits with you as you walk back to your hotel. If you actually want to make people’s lives better, do something different.

    Paul Bloom is the Brooks and Suzanne Regan professor of psychology at Yale. His new book is Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion
    Last edited by nanashi; 09-04-2020 at 05:40 PM.
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    T-type whose pro-social behavior seems dispassionate.
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    https://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophen...try-consultant

    What ‘Really’ Happens When You Tell a Psychopath They’re a Psychopath? A Q&A with BBC America’s ‘Killing Eve’s’ Psychiatry Consultant
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    Oh this is a great study of all these points about Te types. Stella (Gillian Anderson) is single and is not a parent and is probably gamma NT and is seen as being calculating and strategic and independent from convention and unnervingly powerful; she is shown to move in the same plane of existence as the serial killer with dark tetrad traits who is a grief counselor and attached father (Dornan). Stella coolly confronts and warns him: He can walk away. She'll hunt and capture him if he kills again.

    Contrast them both with the silver-haired bearded (NF type?) colleague of Gillian who is in awe of her and later attempts to rape her.
    But, he's seen as better able to pass in society than she is. She's the cold one, right?



    Dornan's character admittedly needs to be locked up, but how different is he, really, in natural makeup from Anderson's character? I doubt ppl with dark tetrad traits are as 'hopelessly' unreachable or unable to modify themselves as our culture fears.


    And the neighbor kid who attaches to Dornan, what's going on with her psychologically? I see some troubling behavioral issues there. But, why do people presume she passes and Anderson and Dornan don't? Why is she seen as more normal?
    Last edited by nanashi; 09-04-2020 at 03:46 PM.
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    According to Robert Hare and other researchers, psychopaths' brains work physically differently than a neurotypical person's. There are (e.g.) reduced neuronal connections between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex. These differences show up clearly in MRI scans.

    I can't find the source, but I remember reading about (or watching??) an initiative to rewire psychopath's brains using computer chips inserted directly into the brain. Cybernetics, basically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I can't find the source, but I remember reading about (or watching??) an initiative to rewire psychopath's brains using computer chips inserted directly into the brain. Cybernetics, basically.
    Such a slippery slope. Ironically this cybernetics + corporatism and open source (hardware and software = the real control becomes inter corporational as net result) as combination might evolve into super Orwellian reality where parts of your brain are locked down by some influential companies. Look no further than Android (what a wonderful choice of word) and then for example open processor architectures and then think locking down features that companies are easily able to create.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoViD Spurdo 007 View Post
    Such a slippery slope. Ironically this cybernetics + corporatism and open source (hardware and software = the real control becomes inter corporational as net result) as combination might evolve into super Orwellian reality where parts of your brain are locked down by some influential companies. Look no further than Android (what a wonderful choice of word) and then for example open processor architectures and then think locking down features that companies are easily able to create.
    Can't wait to have my brain bricked while attempting to jailbreak my Neuralink

    Seriously, it's great how Neuralink markets itself as "a Fitbit for your skull." Can't imagine a stupider reason to get invasive surgery. Trepanning for soyboi techbros who use Reddit mmhmm
    Last edited by Cybel; 09-04-2020 at 11:17 PM.

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    @Pyre
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    Abortists Si types can be psychopathic.

    Broadly speaking, psychopathy is lack of empathy. It is also associated with a feeling of being superior or better than others. That's why a psychopath can't put in the shoes of other(s) (can't have empathy). There are criminals that have said that they believe in the "law of the jungle" or the "strongest survive". Most seem to see those ideas as the ultimate life goal, understanding life as basically meaningless beyond mere survival where just the "idiots" obey the laws and they (as psychopaths) are superior and more adapted or evolved for being able to do things that other ppl wouldn't do (they usually think that lack feelings of empathy is a positive trait). Some researches points out at a lack of mirror neurons as the possible reason of psychopathy. If the last is true, I then would say that psychopathy as disorder or condition can appear indistinctly to types.

    As a side note, I think psychopathic tendencies are closer to normal ppl than what we like to think. The experiment made by Philip Zimbardo, known as Standford prision is an example of this. He called his findings "The Lucifer Effect: Understanding how good people turn evil", because he saw "pacifists" turn into aggressors under certain conditions. Power or a feeling of empowerment, a need to control others (their task) and social support seemed to be key in the experiment.

    If you ask me, I'd say that actual or real "empathy" is harder for most ppl to achieve than what we would like to accept and I think that what's socially approved or disapproved is the only lock for human evilness. History proves that and the experiment of Zimbardo just reasserts it. Under certain social conditions good men can do evil things.

    I think each type can have different types of empathy or goodness or in the opposite extreme an specific lack of empathy and evilness or selfishness. In the case of Si, I think the specific empathy it can show is physical empathy, like caring for others wellbeing or the suffering or need of others. I think it was Strat (or mb another russian author) who wrote somewhere that SLI just listened to "true" cry for help or the honest need of others, so s/he could be indulgent or indifferent to others requests unless s/he actually perceived it was some real need.

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    I saw this documentary that studied psychopathy and they talked to this one surgeon that claimed he was a psychopath; the surgeon explained how being a psychopath made it easy for him to do his job. He said he didn't really feel anything when he had to deal with the nitty-gritty of people's insides and that being a psychopath allowed him to keep his cool and do the best job that he could. He certainly seemed unaffected by Si.

    As far as the conclusion that the psychopathy- part of the chart implies weak Si and not weak F, I don't see that conclusion. A lot of those jobs involve ethical problems/considerations; even craftsman, which could be thought low in ethics, have to make decisions about the quality of work and service they provide. They have to be good at dealing with their customers and addressing any problems they might have or it will influence their ability to get jobs and work.

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