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Thread: I figured out why I constantly conflict with Gammas

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    Default I figured out why I constantly conflict with Gammas

    Third quadra (Gamma) - types, values, mission of quadra in socionics

    Source: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=18

    Quadra representatives: types of Politicians (SEE), Entrepreneur (LIE), Critic (OR) and Guardian (ESI)

    The Gamma Quadra is characterized by the priority of private property over state and democratic power over authoritarian. In Beta, property can also be owned by one person, but only by way of management, and not final ownership. It can always be taken away by force, transferred to another person, nationalized, etc. The gamma principle is as follows: the state for the individual, not the individual for the state.

    Socio-economic aspect. The third quadra (Gamma) - values, the mission of the quadra. Humanitarian socionics

    Historically, a system of checks and balances has emerged to implement this principle. To prevent the beta-quadral usurpation of power, John Locke developed the concept of separation of powers. Thus, he became the ideologist of the gamma state in contrast to T. Hobbes, the theorist of the beta-type state structure.

    State life in Quadra Gamma is based on the broad autonomy of individual territories, linked to each other more economically than politically. The principle of federalism is preferred to Unitarianism. Parliament has a bicameral structure. Regional leaders are elected, not appointed. The ideologists of the Second Quadra, as you remember, insist on a unitary centralized state.

    Kvadra Gamma introduces commodity-money relations into the economic life. Its native element is a free market economy. In our case, this ambiguous term should be understood as the following provisions:
    - limited state participation in the economy, in particular, ensuring the rule of law, macroeconomic regulation, non-profit social programs,
    - healthy competition without monopoly, mafia, racketeering, pressure from shadow capital and other beta-inclusions ,
    - an open economy, that is, with low taxes and low import duties,
    - a free labor market with a mobile labor force,
    - a developed banking system that ensures the rapid movement of capital to more profitable industries.

    The final state of this kind of economy is exactly the opposite in comparison with the economy of the mobilization type: there are many goods, little money. Hence the strong role of advertising and the variety of ways to sell surplus goods (sales, discounts, prizes, multilevel marketing, etc.). The exact characteristic of the mature Gamma is therefore the term consumer society.

    Socionics. Selfishness as a trait of human nature is no longer hidden, but is considered the norm. Free family relationships cease to amaze.

    Socion in Humanitarian Socionics

    The next most important sign of the arrival of gamma values ​​is the dynamization of social life. Any country begins to develop rapidly, as a rule, after reforms that introduce widespread privatization of property. “Babylon and Tire, Carthage and Tarentum, Athens and Rome, Venice and Genoa, Novgorod and Pskov, the United Provinces of Holland and the United States of America - the wealth and power of these republics are invariably associated with the triumph of the principle of the inviolability of the social I-can of every citizen, that is, private ownership principle ".

    The Meiji restoration in Japan, the Stolypin reform in Russia, the modern transformations in China - all these are examples of full-fledged gamma reforms that are closer to us in time.

    As historical practice shows, this state of affairs cannot last long, as it leads to a war of “all against all” - an extreme exacerbation of social tension between the rich and the poor. You can let off steam only by redistributing the national product through high taxes on large incomes (the principle of social democracy). But this slows down economic growth. This is how the driving force of gamma values ​​is exhausted.

    Spiritual and psychological aspect. The third quadra (Gamma) - values, the mission of the quadra. Humanitarian socionics

    Values ​​of the Third Quadra types: Liberal-pragmatic

    It is characterized primarily by individualism. Individualism should be understood as focusing on oneself and not on others. Selfishness as a trait of human nature is no longer hidden, but is considered the norm. The desire to make a profit permeates all aspects of human life, including family relationships.

    Hence the special role of money - the main commodity that can be exchanged for any other commodity. They become a symbol of human success. As destructive as money for the second quadra (corruption undermines the foundations of any beta-quadral empire), it is beneficial as a source of growth for Gamma.

    Even friends and close relatives prefer to maintain individual autonomy. Love of convenience, marriage contracts, early departure of children from the parental home, unwillingness to follow social stereotypes in private behavior - all this serves the purpose of strengthening everyday independence. People with such values ​​cannot be lured into the collectivist "justice society" of the Beta Quadra.

    The root value of Quadra Gamma is pragmatism. As you know, the traditional ideology of the Anglo-Saxon countries is based on it. Their ruling and educated circles have a dislike for the structural logic that generates overarching systems. All that is beneficial (philosophy of pragmatism) is recognized as true. Absolute truth, or even the pursuit of it, is rejected.

    Another ideological support of Gamma Quadra is liberalism. Functionally, it should be understood primarily as freedom of choice. It is clear that such a situation is impossible in the long term without tolerance for dissent, and not only in politics. Any dogmas collapse, beta bans are lifted. Over time, liberalism increasingly manifests itself as a desire to turn everything on its head, to unite the incompatible.

    Liberalism has serious implications for the intimate and personal sphere. Free family relationships cease to amaze. Sexual minorities are coming out of the underground. The emancipation of women is in full swing. The confusion of gender and age roles is a final blow to patriarchal beta morality. Loss of reference eventually begins to threaten the mental health of society.

    Life turns into an endless celebration. Music is playing everywhere, advertising signs and shop windows are burning with bright lights. The minds of people are seized by hedonistic-consumer morality. When a person is full of certain foods or drinks, he begins to mix them. Such a mixture, eclecticism, is a characteristic feature of the mature Gamma quadra.

    Critical and anti-dogmatic processes are taking place in intellectual life - what is now called postmodernism. Postmodernism is a broad philosophical doctrine of an eclectic sense, based on a mixture of genres and blurring of boundaries. Postmodern aesthetics in theater, cinema, painting, and literature, as in a mirror, reflects the ideological system of the Gamma Quadra, which is usually called Western values.

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    I see about 85% to 90% of this as "everything wrong with society today". That is basically it.

    My values stand almost in direct antithesis to Gamma values. Between us there can only be war.

    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 08-24-2020 at 06:43 PM.

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    imo this either makes me a Alpha or a Beta type... either that or a disgruntled ILI.. criticizing his own quadra (the latter is doubtful..)

    I no longer need to criticize Gammas imo, it is who you guys are and that is to be accepted by me at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I see about 85% to 90% of this as "everything wrong with society today". That is basically it.

    My values stand almost in direct antithesis to Gamma values. Between us there can only be war.

    I don't agree with any of that description. But then again I'm not rich.

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    Kvadra Gamma introduces commodity-money relations into the economic life. Its native element is a free market economy. In our case, this ambiguous term should be understood as the following provisions:
    - limited state participation in the economy, in particular, ensuring the rule of law, macroeconomic regulation, non-profit social programs,
    - healthy competition without monopoly, mafia, racketeering, pressure from shadow capital and other beta-inclusions ,
    - an open economy, that is, with low taxes and low import duties,
    - a free labor market with a mobile labor force,
    - a developed banking system that ensures the rapid movement of capital to more profitable industries.
    These things are all institutions that developed because of specific historical processes. You can't just will them into existence, and "Quadra Gamma" certainly didn't do it.
    Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse. - Cervantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Third quadra (Gamma) - types, values, mission of quadra in socionics

    Source: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=18

    Quadra representatives: types of Politicians (SEE), Entrepreneur (LIE), Critic (OR) and Guardian (ESI)

    The Gamma Quadra is characterized by the priority of private property over state and democratic power over authoritarian. In Beta, property can also be owned by one person, but only by way of management, and not final ownership. It can always be taken away by force, transferred to another person, nationalized, etc. The gamma principle is as follows: the state for the individual, not the individual for the state.

    Socio-economic aspect. The third quadra (Gamma) - values, the mission of the quadra. Humanitarian socionics

    Historically, a system of checks and balances has emerged to implement this principle. To prevent the beta-quadral usurpation of power, John Locke developed the concept of separation of powers. Thus, he became the ideologist of the gamma state in contrast to T. Hobbes, the theorist of the beta-type state structure.

    State life in Quadra Gamma is based on the broad autonomy of individual territories, linked to each other more economically than politically. The principle of federalism is preferred to Unitarianism. Parliament has a bicameral structure. Regional leaders are elected, not appointed. The ideologists of the Second Quadra, as you remember, insist on a unitary centralized state.

    Kvadra Gamma introduces commodity-money relations into the economic life. Its native element is a free market economy. In our case, this ambiguous term should be understood as the following provisions:
    - limited state participation in the economy, in particular, ensuring the rule of law, macroeconomic regulation, non-profit social programs,
    - healthy competition without monopoly, mafia, racketeering, pressure from shadow capital and other beta-inclusions ,
    - an open economy, that is, with low taxes and low import duties,
    - a free labor market with a mobile labor force,
    - a developed banking system that ensures the rapid movement of capital to more profitable industries.

    The final state of this kind of economy is exactly the opposite in comparison with the economy of the mobilization type: there are many goods, little money. Hence the strong role of advertising and the variety of ways to sell surplus goods (sales, discounts, prizes, multilevel marketing, etc.). The exact characteristic of the mature Gamma is therefore the term consumer society.

    Socionics. Selfishness as a trait of human nature is no longer hidden, but is considered the norm. Free family relationships cease to amaze.

    Socion in Humanitarian Socionics

    The next most important sign of the arrival of gamma values ​​is the dynamization of social life. Any country begins to develop rapidly, as a rule, after reforms that introduce widespread privatization of property. “Babylon and Tire, Carthage and Tarentum, Athens and Rome, Venice and Genoa, Novgorod and Pskov, the United Provinces of Holland and the United States of America - the wealth and power of these republics are invariably associated with the triumph of the principle of the inviolability of the social I-can of every citizen, that is, private ownership principle ".

    The Meiji restoration in Japan, the Stolypin reform in Russia, the modern transformations in China - all these are examples of full-fledged gamma reforms that are closer to us in time.

    As historical practice shows, this state of affairs cannot last long, as it leads to a war of “all against all” - an extreme exacerbation of social tension between the rich and the poor. You can let off steam only by redistributing the national product through high taxes on large incomes (the principle of social democracy). But this slows down economic growth. This is how the driving force of gamma values ​​is exhausted.

    Spiritual and psychological aspect. The third quadra (Gamma) - values, the mission of the quadra. Humanitarian socionics

    Values ​​of the Third Quadra types: Liberal-pragmatic

    It is characterized primarily by individualism. Individualism should be understood as focusing on oneself and not on others. Selfishness as a trait of human nature is no longer hidden, but is considered the norm. The desire to make a profit permeates all aspects of human life, including family relationships.

    Hence the special role of money - the main commodity that can be exchanged for any other commodity. They become a symbol of human success. As destructive as money for the second quadra (corruption undermines the foundations of any beta-quadral empire), it is beneficial as a source of growth for Gamma.

    Even friends and close relatives prefer to maintain individual autonomy. Love of convenience, marriage contracts, early departure of children from the parental home, unwillingness to follow social stereotypes in private behavior - all this serves the purpose of strengthening everyday independence. People with such values ​​cannot be lured into the collectivist "justice society" of the Beta Quadra.

    The root value of Quadra Gamma is pragmatism. As you know, the traditional ideology of the Anglo-Saxon countries is based on it. Their ruling and educated circles have a dislike for the structural logic that generates overarching systems. All that is beneficial (philosophy of pragmatism) is recognized as true. Absolute truth, or even the pursuit of it, is rejected.

    Another ideological support of Gamma Quadra is liberalism. Functionally, it should be understood primarily as freedom of choice. It is clear that such a situation is impossible in the long term without tolerance for dissent, and not only in politics. Any dogmas collapse, beta bans are lifted. Over time, liberalism increasingly manifests itself as a desire to turn everything on its head, to unite the incompatible.

    Liberalism has serious implications for the intimate and personal sphere. Free family relationships cease to amaze. Sexual minorities are coming out of the underground. The emancipation of women is in full swing. The confusion of gender and age roles is a final blow to patriarchal beta morality. Loss of reference eventually begins to threaten the mental health of society.

    Life turns into an endless celebration. Music is playing everywhere, advertising signs and shop windows are burning with bright lights. The minds of people are seized by hedonistic-consumer morality. When a person is full of certain foods or drinks, he begins to mix them. Such a mixture, eclecticism, is a characteristic feature of the mature Gamma quadra.

    Critical and anti-dogmatic processes are taking place in intellectual life - what is now called postmodernism. Postmodernism is a broad philosophical doctrine of an eclectic sense, based on a mixture of genres and blurring of boundaries. Postmodern aesthetics in theater, cinema, painting, and literature, as in a mirror, reflects the ideological system of the Gamma Quadra, which is usually called Western values.
    I doubt that a quadra can determine your political opinions, I believe that these are determined through your knowledge regarding the field and other adjacent fields (economics, philosophy, etc).

    Anyway, it can be. In fact, one of the most morally abhorrent scenarios I can think about (of course within the normal set of rules, I'm not saying this is worse than rape and murder) is this one:
    Imagine a 35 years old woman. She wants to have children but continue to advance in her professional career (ironically she is a supermarket cashier) therefore it is preferable to hire someone to take care of her children all day.
    I could say first that working for your children is seen as limiting but doing it for a stranger who owns a company is not seen as limiting, but the fact is that we all know perfectly well the psychological consequences of the lack of a mother in childhood development , and yet she seeks to justify her actions with four pretty words about how love is good regardless of where it comes from and a willingness to ignore the obvious in favor of the majority views and the personally convenient (having children at a late age, not caring for them, and when the time comes to become independent, tie them to take care of you that you are older now) seems to me the most gruesome mental gymnastics that could be done.
    This mentality of me and my interest above everyone and everything is what I'm referring to, as after reading some things about Gammas I'm guessing this is their moral compass and the way they see the world.
    This mentality I find irritating has me on loops of angry thinking sometimes, thinking about why the fuck should someone comply with the lies to get ahead, why should someone deny that the grass is green just to pursue the main social trends, and specially why should someone put his own interest above everyone else wellbeing, etc.

    Most probably I'm either Beta or Alpha. Quadra values do not reflect onto political matters but probably on personal worldview they reflect a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I don't agree with any of that description. But then again I'm not rich.
    Gamma is kinda the quadra of Trump SEE - Jeff Bezos ILI - Bill Gates LIE

    Gulenko mentiones her as ESI:



    Jack over on WSS and I have seen other ppl involved in socionics (other gammas) say that Sargon of Akkad (Carl Benjamin) is a stereotypical ESI. Imo it makes sense, him and Locke are like lovers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    These things are all institutions that developed because of specific historical processes. You can't just will them into existence, and "Quadra Gamma" certainly didn't do it.
    I conceptualize the quadras as the seasons or cycles of civilization, so Alpha is like spring (new beginnings), Beta is like summer (expansion aka the vanguard of a new expanding civilization), Gamma is like autumn (the peak of summer's fruit but also the beginning of decline and death), Deltas are like winter (the fragmentary custodians of the ruins).

    Gamma takes over at Beta's peak and then slowly flushes it down the toilet. Rome or the USSR after it's glory and throughout it's ruin.

    You could also see it as birth - youth - adulthood - old age/death. A cycle of life and death.

    in our current timeline I'd say... winter is coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I conceptualize the quadras as the seasons or cycles of civilization, so Alpha is like spring (new beginnings), Beta is like summer (expansion aka the vanguard), Gamma is like autumn (the peak of summer's fruit but also the beginning of decline and death), Deltas are like winter (the fragmentary custodians of the ruins).

    Gamma takes over at Beta's peak and then slowly flushes it down the toilet. Rome or the USSR after it's glory and throughout it's ruin.

    You could also see it as birth - youth - adulthood - old age/death
    “Conceptualize” whatever you like, but quadras don’t cause these things. At most certain mindsets reflect the public consciousness or mood more, but they’re a reaction to these sorts of things, not their causes.
    Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse. - Cervantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frddy View Post
    I doubt that a quadra can determine your political opinions, I believe that these are determined through your knowledge regarding the field and other adjacent fields (economics, philosophy, etc).

    Anyway, it can be. In fact, one of the most morally abhorrent scenarios I can think about (of course within the normal set of rules, I'm not saying this is worse than rape and murder) is this one:
    Imagine a 35 years old woman. She wants to have children but continue to advance in her professional career (ironically she is a supermarket cashier) therefore it is preferable to hire someone to take care of her children all day.
    I could say first that working for your children is seen as limiting but doing it for a stranger who owns a company is not seen as limiting, but the fact is that we all know perfectly well the psychological consequences of the lack of a mother in childhood development , and yet she seeks to justify her actions with four pretty words about how love is good regardless of where it comes from and a willingness to ignore the obvious in favor of the majority views and the personally convenient (having children at a late age, not caring for them, and when the time comes to become independent, tie them to take care of you that you are older now) seems to me the most gruesome mental gymnastics that could be done.
    This mentality of me and my interest above everyone and everything is what I'm referring to, as after reading some things about Gammas I'm guessing this is their moral compass and the way they see the world.
    This mentality I find irritating has me on loops of angry thinking sometimes, thinking about why the fuck should someone comply with the lies to get ahead, why should someone deny that the grass is green just to pursue the main social trends, and specially why should someone put his own interest above everyone else wellbeing, etc.

    Most probably I'm either Beta or Alpha. Quadra values do not reflect onto political matters but probably on personal worldview they reflect a lot.
    Well, I'm Gamma and I married a Delta woman. We both had excellent jobs and earned about the same amount. When my wife had our son, she said she wanted to continue to work. I considered for an instant the idea of hiring a woman to look after our son, but rejected that course of action. I couldn't force my wife to care for our son, so I quit my job as an engineering manager and stayed home to be a househusband.

    It so happens that, while I took care of our son from dawn until about 9 PM, after he went to bed, I was able to continue working late into the night to start my business. I didn't get much sleep for many years, but my investment of time and effort eventually paid off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frddy View Post
    I doubt that a quadra can determine your political opinions, I believe that these are determined through your knowledge regarding the field and other adjacent fields (economics, philosophy, etc).
    You misunderstand. This isn't about any specific political opinion. To see it that way would be to not see the forest from the trees or to not spot the pattern or the ripple.

    The specifics of one's politics is not as relevant in this sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    “Conceptualize” whatever you like, but quadras don’t cause these things. At most certain mindsets reflect the public consciousness or mood more, but they’re a reaction to these sorts of things, not their causes.
    Re-imagine it as Hogwarts houses then:

    Alpha - Ravenclaw
    Beta - Gryffindor
    Gamma - Slytherin
    Delta - Hufflepuff

    getting bogged down in the specifics of politics takes away from the essence of the idea / pattern imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    You misunderstand. This isn't about any specific political opinion. To see it that way would be to not see the forest from the trees or to not spot the pattern or the ripple.

    The specifics of one's politics is not as relevant in this sense.
    But that's literally what you're doing tho. You say the specifics is not important. At the same time, your thread is about why you conflict with individual gammas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Re-imagine it as Hogwarts houses then:

    Alpha - Ravenclaw
    Beta - Gryffindor
    Gamma - Slytherin
    Delta - Hufflepuff

    getting bogged down in the specifics of politics takes away from the essence of the idea / pattern imo.
    Hogwarts houses were also a dumb classification system. And if an idea doesn't make sense, what's the use of it?
    Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse. - Cervantes

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    I'm a Slytherin. I thought I would score differently on tests after 10 or so years but nope. Still Slytherin. Gryffindor is scored at second and I don't care enough for the other two to take note of their placements.

    My SEI sister is Hufflepuff though. ESE mother probably would be Griffindor if she wasn't phobic about satanism in Harry Pooper and my LII father would be Ravenclaw. IEE brother, I have no idea what that crack head would be. He's probably ascended the need to be sorted.

    My Delta friends (two EII and one IEE) were Ravenclaw along with my Gamma friends (ILI and an ESI). My LIE friend is a Gryffindor.

    I have a no idea why I remember all of this since I've never read the books or watched the movies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Panda View Post
    But that's literally what you're doing tho. You say the specifics is not important. At the same time, your thread is about why you conflict about individual gammas.
    I find the gamma mindset to be decadent, socially unaware & selfish. It leads to the breakdown of order even in the abstract sense and ultimately the denial of the transcendental. A kind of downward spiral that contrasts the upward thrust of the Beta mindset, which is more gothic in nature.

    In my experience this has been my lifelong beef with contemporary society, struggling with the nihilism that it brings, its kinda like drowning.. desperately struggling for one gasp of air.

    My beef with Gamma is beyond the mere political.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 08-25-2020 at 05:43 AM.

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    @Pyre, hey, ambition is a good trait to have!
    Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse. - Cervantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    It leads to the breakdown of order even in the abstract sense
    Why is this a problem?

    and ultimately the denial of the transcendental.
    What is the transcendental? How could it be reached without the breakdown of order?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I see about 85% to 90% of this as "everything wrong with society today". That is basically it.

    My values stand almost in direct antithesis to Gamma values. Between us there can only be war.
    So ... what is the value conflict implied ... what are you own values, and how do they conflict with values of Gammas?

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    I think the main problem with society today is atomization. People are isolated from one another, atomized. I don't know if this is gamma or not, I do know beta and gamma are described by Gulenko as "centralizers", whereas personally, I feel like a de-centralization of power and resources would be most beneficial to our society.

    I like the idea of re-tribalization - minus the ideas of "genetic memory" and other things which have racialist connotations. This is what, on an individual level, would probably be a solution to the atomization of society. Technology itself isn't really the problem, nor is capitalism, though the way social media (a creation of the tech industry) is misused and its developers are happy to have it misused towards atomizing people and keeping them in their bubble.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Why is this a problem?

    What is the transcendental? How could it be reached without the breakdown of order?
    I'll translate into socionics language: they don't value Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    So ... what is the value conflict implied ... what are you own values, and how do they conflict with values of Gammas?
    <_< oh man I'm at work and that is complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I think the main problem with society today is atomization. People are isolated from one another, atomized. I don't know if this is gamma or not, I do know beta and gamma are described by Gulenko as "centralizers", whereas personally, I feel like a de-centralization of power and resources would be most beneficial to our society.

    I like the idea of re-tribalization - minus the ideas of "genetic memory" and other things which have racialist connotations. This is what, on an individual level, would probably be a solution to the atomization of society. Technology itself isn't really the problem, nor is capitalism, though the way social media (a creation of the tech industry) is misused and its developers are happy to have it misused towards atomizing people and keeping them in their bubble.
    I agree with this tho.

    EDIT: well maybe not fully.

    My caveat:

    “So long as western people imagine that there only exists a single type of humanity, that there is only one 'civilization', at different stages of development, no mutual understanding will be possible.”
    ― René Guénon, The Crisis of the Modern World
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 08-25-2020 at 07:07 AM.

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    @Pyre, I have very similar scores in that the first is Slytherin, the second (but clearly below) Gryffindor, then slightly lower Ravenclaw, and then in the abyss lies Hufflepuff.

    Anyway, Slytherin is seen as the baddies of HP, so as I don't see myself as a baddie I would maybe go for 'plox Gryffindor' route. Or even Ravenclaw. Slytherin is also clearly hierarchy-based (and hostile towards impurity as hell), mixing 'the worst' of beta and gamma. Something that is a no-no for me.

    My EII friend scores Ravenclaw and my (most probably) IEE friend scores Hufflepuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    @Pyre, I have very similar scores in that the first is Slytherin, the second (but clearly below) Gryffindor, then slightly lower Ravenclaw, and then in the abyss lies Hufflepuff.

    Anyway, Slytherin is seen as the baddies of HP, so as I don't see myself as a baddie I would maybe go for 'plox Gryffindor' route. Or even Ravenclaw. Slytherin is also clearly hierarchy-based (and hostile towards impurity as hell), mixing 'the worst' of beta and gamma. Something that is a no-no for me.

    My EII friend scores Ravenclaw and my (most probably) IEE friend scores Hufflepuff.
    I got sorted into slytherin house on wizardingworld.com ..so..
    In terms of characteristics imo its accurate for me.. for good or ill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I got sorted into slytherin house on wizardingworld.com ..so..
    Yeah, you would be about as fitting in as crazed Bellatrix. Probably less. With Vold (bad beta(tm)) specifically, you would be probably nothing more than a pawn, if you would ever join them (I think you wouldn't, you value individualism too much).

    (I mean, quadras don't equal Hogwart houses, they just correlate at best)

    And don't do wizardingworld as the questions there are random (you get only a part of the larger pool), use this instead: https://www.gotoquiz.com/pottermore_...sible_question

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I'll translate into socionics language: they don't value Ti.
    What is meant by "valuing Ti"?

    How does this translate, conceptually or experience-wise?


    I agree with this tho.

    EDIT: well maybe not fully.

    My caveat:

    “So long as western people imagine that there only exists a single type of humanity, that there is only one 'civilization', at different stages of development, no mutual understanding will be possible.”
    ― René Guénon, The Crisis of the Modern World
    I tend to see it that there is one type of humanity.

    However, I don't think that progress is something that exists in a linear fashion, nor on a global scale. If that's progress, it's also regress in other ways.

    I'm not a traditionalist, but I am looking at other ways of living, borrowing ideas from people who might be traditionalists, the way most people live in modern western society just isn't what we are built for from an evolutionary standpoint. If we continue for a few thousand years with modern living, then yeah, we may adapt to being out of touch with more natural environments, our instincts probably will change. But there is still the problem of atomization, that we are cut off from each other. We put old people into nursing homes because they are no longer economically viable, and yet, single, lonely people are economically interesting because they are often willing to buy things to compensate insecurity, so they are a gold mine. This is how people end up being treated: from the standpoint of their economic viability.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Yeah, you would be about as fitting in as crazed Bellatrix. Probably less. With Vold (bad beta(tm)) specifically, you would be probably nothing more than a pawn, if you would ever join them (I think you wouldn't, you value individualism too much).

    (I mean, quadras don't equal Hogwart houses, they just correlate at best)

    And don't do wizardingworld as the questions there are random (you get only a part of the larger pool), use this instead: https://www.gotoquiz.com/pottermore_...sible_question
    Pottermore Sorting Quiz (all possible questions)
    Your Result: SLYTHERIN! 76%

    Congratulations! You have been sorted into Slytherin, the house of ambition, determination, and cunning. You are amongst other Slytherins such as: Snape, Draco, and MERLIN.

    66% GRYFFINDOR!

    58% RAVENCLAW!

    44% HUFFLEPUFF!

    Shit..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    What is meant by "valuing Ti"?

    How does this translate, conceptually or experience-wise?
    Gammas tend towards utilitarianism and are pragmatic, while I absolutely must have meaning beyond the empirical, supported by abstract logical structure. I always gradually refine a personal worldview.

    I tend to see it that there is one type of humanity.
    If this were true, we'd eventually all end up being the same. That thought is depressing.
    I see humanity as consisting of blocks that tend towards different kinds of civilizations often in competition with each-other. Things are in flux, but work according to certain laws and patterns.

    However, I don't think that progress is something that exists in a linear fashion, nor on a global scale. If that's progress, it's also regress in other ways.
    I see things in terms of cyclical patterns. There is a kind of underlying logic that can explain these things. It seems humans have a kind of intuition for this that is reflected in symbols (wisdom of less civilized times). I like Jung's idea of the collective unconscious for example.

    I'm not a traditionalist, but I am looking at other ways of living, borrowing ideas from people who might be traditionalists, the way most people live in modern western society just isn't what we are built for from an evolutionary standpoint. If we continue for a few thousand years with modern living, then yeah, we may adapt to being out of touch with more natural environments, our instincts probably will change. But there is still the problem of atomization, that we are cut off from each other. We put old people into nursing homes because they are no longer economically viable, and yet, single, lonely people are economically interesting because they are often willing to buy things to compensate insecurity, so they are a gold mine. This is how people end up being treated: from the standpoint of their economic viability.

    Can't watch this atm, am at work. I don't think I'm a traditionalist either. I think I'm just looking for meaning. Modern life is depressing & empty.
    This has frustrated me ever since I can remember. As if something is wrong and I can't quite put my finger on any one specific cause. Its always a combination of things going wrong all at the same time.

    "The danger that faces us today is that the whole of reality will be replaced by words. This accounts for that terrible lack of instinct in modern man, particularly the city-dweller. He lacks all contact with life and the breath of nature. He knows a rabbit or a cow only from the illustrated paper, the dictionary, or the movies, and thinks he knows what it is really like-and is then amazed that cowsheds “smell,” because the dictionary didn’t say so." ~Carl Jung

    Jung has a lot of good observations in this regard.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 08-25-2020 at 08:54 AM.

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    @shotgunfingers, you make some interesting points, I pretty much agree, I may add my own reflections later.

    I will say about utilitarianism, it seems like the wrong stance on ethics, if you're talking about the ethical philosophy, though I tend towards being pragmatic in my day to day life, and don't value abstract logical strucures but real life experience and knowledge.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    If this were true, we'd eventually all end up being the same. That thought is depressing.
    No, I agree, I don't want everyone to be the same, either.

    I do think there are some basic things that make a person human though, and those things should not be denied.

    Ultimately though, I see ethnic differences as somewhat irrelevant when it comes to the choice of one's culture.

    I see humanity as consisting of blocks that tend towards different kinds of civilizations often in competition with each-other. Things are in flux, but work according to certain laws and patterns.
    Well civilizations have differences, which can partly be explained by climatological differences differences. This may seem banal, but take the example of ancient Egyptian vs Mesopotamia. In the former, the forces of nature were mostly seen as beneficial, due to the sediment transport of the Nile river, which made agriculture easy. In the latter case, the Tigres and Euphrates rivers and their violent floods caused the people to view nature as hostile and threatening. This is going to tie in with the point below.


    I see things in terms of cyclical patterns. There is a kind of underlying logic that can explain these things. It seems humans have a kind of intuition for this that is reflected in symbols (wisdom of less civilized times). I like Jung's idea of the collective unconscious for example.



    Can't watch this atm, am at work. I don't think I'm a traditionalist either. I think I'm just looking for meaning. Modern life is depressing & empty.
    This has frustrated me ever since I can remember. As if something is wrong and I can't quite put my finger on any one specific cause. Its always a combination of things going wrong all at the same time.

    "The danger that faces us today is that the whole of reality will be replaced by words. This accounts for that terrible lack of instinct in modern man, particularly the city-dweller. He lacks all contact with life and the breath of nature. He knows a rabbit or a cow only from the illustrated paper, the dictionary, or the movies, and thinks he knows what it is really like-and is then amazed that cowsheds “smell,” because the dictionary didn’t say so." ~Carl Jung

    Jung has a lot of good observations in this regard.
    Humanity got the idea of cyclical patterns from observing nature. Take my example above - "meaning" was created by the climatological and geographic conditions in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.

    Modern society leads further and further away from observing nature and its cycles. It's obvious to me that "meaning", the way we derive it in the contemporary world, through social media, is not how we are meant to function. It cuts us off from our senses, which are a key to our inner being. Even though we still use our senses, we have a limited palette of experiences through our phones. We live vicariously. We lose meaning, we are cut off from our environments.

    I'm not sure how I feel about the collective uncosncious. I like that Jung quote though. It's very true.
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 08-25-2020 at 02:47 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Gammas tend towards utilitarianism and are pragmatic, while I absolutely must have meaning beyond the empirical, supported by abstract logical structure. I always gradually refine a personal worldview.
    Since I started studying philosophy, I've been pragmatic as well. Since I do value Ti,/Ne I can get trapped in this world view of Platonic idealism, just splitting hairs and trying to refine definitions of concepts and using that to one up others in imaginary debates in my head. (Aha so and so is wrong because my definitions are more accurate and superior!!! Clearly I am right because the real definition of X term is this and the conditions for the existence of Y explains this scenario in my favour. My interlocutor didn't even consider this possibility.)

    Yes, I have a personal world view but I don't discuss it obviously. It's something that sits in the background of my mind. If you ask me, I could say "Oh yeah I'm a rule consequentialist and I believe in objective morality and presuppose the conditions for my own consciousness." (Just an example, not indicative of my real beliefs.) And I know a lot of Alpha NTs who talk like this. You see how this can be extremely annoying to anyone who wants to actually do something with their lives and make a change in the world? So recognizing your own flaws can help you overcome them. Having some really amazing Gammas in my life has helped me to understand how other people see me. Perspective is key here, I think.

    If this were true, we'd eventually all end up being the same. That thought is depressing.
    I see humanity as consisting of blocks that tend towards different kinds of civilizations often in competition with each-other. Things are in flux, but work according to certain laws and patterns.
    I see humans as one giant mass of unconscious decision making. At the core of it, I do think we are all the same.

    I see things in terms of cyclical patterns. There is a kind of underlying logic that can explain these things. It seems humans have a kind of intuition for this that is reflected in symbols (wisdom of less civilized times). I like Jung's idea of the collective unconscious for example.
    How interesting. I don't see cyclical patterns here. I've read enough to think that history is unidirectional, and that it doesn't actually repeat itself on a grand scale. I tend to think in a more fractal sense - everything is just a fraction of a larger whole and the biggest unity is beyond our comprehension. Could be a difference in types maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I'll translate into socionics language: they don't value Ti.



    <_< oh man I'm at work and that is complicated.



    I agree with this tho.

    EDIT: well maybe not fully.

    My caveat:

    “So long as western people imagine that there only exists a single type of humanity, that there is only one 'civilization', at different stages of development, no mutual understanding will be possible.”
    ― René Guénon, The Crisis of the Modern World
    This explains nothing. Obviously everything could be quickly answered with “becuz socionix”, but you made a textwall thread with no explicit logical connections to your values and ideas in reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Re-imagine it as Hogwarts houses then:

    Alpha - Ravenclaw
    Beta - Gryffindor
    Gamma - Slytherin
    Delta - Hufflepuff

    getting bogged down in the specifics of politics takes away from the essence of the idea / pattern imo.
    There is not such a correlation between Hogwarts houses and quadras.

    Ravenclaw - INxx
    Gryffindor - gamma SF, Ne leads
    Slytherin - ENxj, beta ST
    Hufflepuff - Si ego

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    IMO though I'm not really sure how much Gammas care for decadence. Not really in the classical sense. Are they self indulgent? Orgiastic? Hedonistic? I'd have to say they're probably the quadra least guilty of this imo. Even the "wild child" of the quadra, SEE, really only uses behaviors like these in special cases to get what they want from what I've seen.

    Gammas are probably the most opulent quadra due to the combination of Se+Fi, which leads to more uninhibited self expression, and of course they want the very best to care for others.

    But there is a big difference between opulence and self indulgence imo. A person can be showy and theatrical, "the best dressed" so to speak (opulent in tastes), but that doesn't mean they care to consume much at a party (to be truly self indulgent to their surroundings).

    One can argue that opulence and maximalism are both quite self indulgent due to aesthetic tastes and self expression, along with the want to have the very best, to provide for others, so on. Nothing wrong with that and it's something I can relate to these in all honesty. But I don't exactly link it to the current state of consumerism as it is, or at it's worst, and I can actually see "buying the very best" as a way to combat the beast of consumerism (which is a whole other thread on it's own). I would consider the beast of consumerism to be more run of the mill crap, "planned obsolescence", always going out and eating, tconstantly buying items that people don't need (from a woman's standpoint: clothing from fast fashion, makeup, nail polish, so on).

    Just 2c from a n00b.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
    & you know now,
    that anything alone is
    a haunting

    & any two things
    together is a terror.
    What use are flowers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyne View Post
    There is not such a correlation between Hogwarts houses and quadras.

    Ravenclaw - INxx
    Gryffindor - gamma SF, Ne leads
    Slytherin - ENxj, beta ST
    Hufflepuff - Si ego
    It was mainly to lighten the mood.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    This explains nothing. Obviously everything could be quickly answered with “becuz socionix”, but you made a textwall thread with no explicit logical connections to your values and ideas in reality.
    what did you expect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyre View Post
    IMO though I'm not really sure how much Gammas care for decadence. Not really in the classical sense. Are they self indulgent? Orgiastic? Hedonistic? I'd have to say they're probably the quadra least guilty of this imo. Even the "wild child" of the quadra, SEE, really only uses behaviors like these in special cases to get what they want from what I've seen.

    Gammas are probably the most opulent quadra due to the combination of Se+Fi, which leads to more uninhibited self expression, and of course they want the very best to care for others.

    But there is a big difference between opulence and self indulgence imo. A person can be showy and theatrical, "the best dressed" so to speak (opulent in tastes), but that doesn't mean they care to consume much at a party (to be truly self indulgent to their surroundings).

    One can argue that opulence and maximalism are both quite self indulgent due to aesthetic tastes and self expression, along with the want to have the very best, to provide for others, so on. Nothing wrong with that and it's something I can relate to these in all honesty. But I don't exactly link it to the current state of consumerism as it is, or at it's worst, and I can actually see "buying the very best" as a way to combat the beast of consumerism (which is a whole other thread on it's own). I would consider the beast of consumerism to be more run of the mill crap, "planned obsolescence", always going out and eating, tconstantly buying items that people don't need (from a woman's standpoint: clothing from fast fashion, makeup, nail polish, so on).

    Just 2c from a n00b.
    To make what I was talking about more interesting to consume:



    I want to avoid that and reconnect to something transcendental, greater than myself:



    I am aware gammas might want to make a business out of something this.. sacred.. if you want to call it that.. and the very thought disgusts me.
    Something like that would be without substance, a hollow shell or a mirage of the real thing... larping.. e_e.. atrocious.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 08-25-2020 at 02:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    To make what I was talking about more interesting to consume:



    I want to avoid that and reconnect to something transcendental, greater than myself:

    Ah, I was going to talk about how Alphas are "self indulgent" in the way that information presented to them usually has to be fun and interesting. It is the quadra I see as being the most geared towards fun.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
    & you know now,
    that anything alone is
    a haunting

    & any two things
    together is a terror.
    What use are flowers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyre View Post
    Ah, I was going to talk about how Alphas are "self indulgent" in the way that information presented to them usually has to be fun and interesting. It is the quadra I see as being the most geared towards fun.
    I am aware gammas might want to make a business out of something this.. sacred.. if you want to call it that.. and the very thought disgusts me.
    Something like that would be without substance, a hollow shell or a mirage of the real thing... larping.. e_e.. atrocious.

    I tried photography once and while I enjoyed the use of the tools, it felt like i was missing something, the result of the craft was "empty" and it frustrated me, so I put it away. I think lately I'm on to something that would fill that void and give it substance. Something that would make what I produce actually have meaning and value.

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    Quadra progression is utter bs in my opinion. History probably doesn't go in circles, even if some patterns repeat. I've often observed the tendency to ascribe a linear regularity to highly complex probabilistic systems that Causal-Determinists (SEE, ILE, LSI & EII) have. Take it as a result of your preference for C because B because A kind of thinking.

    From what I gathered, gammas tend to :
    - Anti-rationalism, illustrated by the quote from Hume "Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions"(meaning a motivation for action is not/should not be reason).
    - Ethical subjectivism, ie. thinking that what's right and good depends on the person/situation evaluating and not some social standard(which doesn't mean that you can't judge someone). Can make them cruel, stubborn and unable to see ethical situations from another point of view.
    - Believe freedom means to take whatever action they deem necessary(in contrast to freedom of thought/speech/association for example) to ensure their prosperity. Can make them competitive and ruthless.

    All quadra values have a shadow side and in a lot of ways alpha values are the shadow of gamma. Current neo liberalist thought is pretty much gamma NT, and current western populist politics(for example Boris Johnson) alpha.
    Only there occasionally

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I am aware gammas might want to make a business out of something this.. sacred.. if you want to call it that.. and the very thought disgusts me.
    Something like that would be without substance, a hollow shell or a mirage of the real thing... larping.. e_e.. atrocious.
    That wasn't what I was talking about at all. It's as if you didn't even read what I posted.

    If you don't like "larping" then probably not beta. Even SLEs who don't really "larp" enjoy it when others larp.

    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I tried photography once and while I enjoyed the use of the tools, it felt like i was missing something, the result of the craft was "empty" and it frustrated me, so I put it away. I think lately I'm on to something that would fill that void and give it substance. Something that would make what I produce actually have meaning and value.
    It's good to have hobbies, I hope you find something you enjoy and that brings you fulfillment
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
    & you know now,
    that anything alone is
    a haunting

    & any two things
    together is a terror.
    What use are flowers?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Quadra progression is utter bs in my opinion. History probably doesn't go in circles, even if some patterns repeat. I've often observed the tendency to ascribe a linear regularity to highly complex probabilistic systems that Causal-Determinists (SEE, ILE, LSI & EII) have. Take it as a result of your preference for C because B because A kind of thinking.

    From what I gathered, gammas tend to :
    - Anti-rationalism, illustrated by the quote from Hume "Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions"(meaning a motivation for action is not/should not be reason).
    - Ethical subjectivism, ie. thinking that what's right and good depends on the person/situation evaluating and not some social standard(which doesn't mean that you can't judge someone). Can make them cruel, stubborn and unable to see ethical situations from another point of view.
    - Believe freedom means to take whatever action they deem necessary(in contrast to freedom of thought/speech/association for example) to ensure their prosperity. Can make them competitive and ruthless.

    All quadra values have a shadow side and in a lot of ways alpha values are the shadow of gamma. Current neo liberalist thought is pretty much gamma NT, and current western populist politics(for example Boris Johnson) alpha.
    Quadra progression is pretty single minded as well imo, and only tends to focus on one or a few parts of the world at a time (usually western). It's of course ridiculous for people to try and analyze all aspects of the world and write them down, but to say "The world is so Gamma right now" or "Politics are so Beta in the moment" is pretty near sighted. Different things happen in different places and people can really only speak for themselves and their experiences, which pretty much debunks quadra progression imo.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
    & you know now,
    that anything alone is
    a haunting

    & any two things
    together is a terror.
    What use are flowers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Third quadra (Gamma) - types, values, mission of quadra in socionics

    Source: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=18

    Quadra representatives: types of Politicians (SEE), Entrepreneur (LIE), Critic (OR) and Guardian (ESI)

    The Gamma Quadra is characterized by the priority of private property over state and democratic power over authoritarian. In Beta, property can also be owned by one person, but only by way of management, and not final ownership. It can always be taken away by force, transferred to another person, nationalized, etc. The gamma principle is as follows: the state for the individual, not the individual for the state.
    .....
    This is a very complicated way to explain what basically boils down to: Alphas are all about "play first, work later", whereas Gammas are "work first, play later". For Alphas, when they work, it should be play, which basically comes down to them doing fun stuff that serves no useful purpose, such as studying galaxies at 4 billion light years distance, which then has to be financed through subsidies. Gammas hate this attitude, as they think they are the ones ending up paying for these subsidies (which is not true, it's the Deltas who pay for it).
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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