EII - Manipulative meekness?

[lkdhf qkb]

Thank you for putting a name on it—I know now that I suffer from self-sacrificing misery. How do you get rid of the guilt and self-loathing?

This actually sounds more like enneagram 9 problems than EII ones. The most common tips for 9s are: Try to work on your self-esteem, until you can sense that your contribution to the world is wanted and appreciated. Maybe make a list of things you wish for yourself, things you're worthy of. Achieve them.

Se skills that could help you are : learn to say no when you don't want something, try to be more present and engaged with the world, get to know your physical strength because you have more than you imagine

[sbbds]

This actually sounds more like enneagram 9 problems than EII ones. The most common tips for 9s are: Try to work on your self-esteem, until you can sense that your contribution to the world is wanted and appreciated. Maybe make a list of things you wish for yourself, things you're worthy of. Achieve them.

Se skills that could help you are : learn to say no when you don't want something, try to be more present and engaged with the world, get to know your physical strength because you have more than you imagine

No, it’s Enneagram 2

[lkdhf qkb]

No, it’s Enneagram 2

I think I know where you're coming from, but I still think 9. 2s are often proud to intervene in the lives of others and put others needs before their own. They'll post stuff like "why is my love never reciprocated?!". 9s back down and never say no because they feel threatened and want peace, and end up making too many concessions and "loosing themselves".

[sbbds]

I think I know where you're coming from, but I still think 9. 2s are often proud to intervene in the lives of others and put others needs before their own. They'll post stuff like "why is my love never reciprocated?!". 9s back down and never say no because they feel threatened and want peace, and end up making too many concessions and "loosing themselves".

With 9 it’s about peace and merging with others. With 2 it’s more purely about self-sacrifice and backhanded manipulation that way, and lurker didn’t say anything about “peace”, so it seems more quintessentially 2 to me.

[consentingadult]

This actually sounds more like enneagram 9 problems than EII ones. The most common tips for 9s are: Try to work on your self-esteem, until you can sense that your contribution to the world is wanted and appreciated. Maybe make a list of things you wish for yourself, things you're worthy of. Achieve them.

Se skills that could help you are : learn to say no when you don't want something, try to be more present and engaged with the world, get to know your physical strength because you have more than you imagine

This is very much what I said about the average self-help book: they tell you what the problem is, they tell you what behavior produces better results, but they don't tell you how you go about acquiring those new skills, making such books totally useless.

[lkdhf qkb]

This is very much what I said about the average self-help book: they tell you what the problem is, they tell you what behavior produces better results, but they don't tell you how you go about acquiring those new skills, making such books totally useless.

I get what you mean. I think the reason for this is that self-help books have to address a broad population, and a method that might work on you won't on your neighbour, so they keep it general; if you want something custom-fitted, you'll have to do therapy.

In the end, it's self-help, so you'll have to put some effort into experimenting and finding out for yourself what works and what not. I prefer that and would be very uncorfortable with a guru who has a clear method. Lol, "sing Ohmm three times and you'll find nirvana"! Where's the purpose of self-development, if you're not willing to go your own path? That's most of the fun anyway

[lurker]

That depends on how serious your problem is, I can't tell from this distance. It might be as easy as allowing yourself to grow out of it, or getting some serious therapy. If your interested at a serious but low threshold entrance into better understanding your issue and if you need help, get the book "Reinventing Your Life" by Jefrrey E. Young. I have read gazillions of self-help books, and this is the only book I know of that does not only explain how situation A is bad and situation B is healthy, it details the steps how to actually get from A to B, whereas most self-help books just recommend that you should do B instead of A, which is easier said than done. It's a great book, but do not expect a quick fix. Expect the contrary.

Thank you for the recommendation. Unfortunately, I live somewhere that doesn't permit me access to the book. I'm still young though, so this issue may be something I have to outgrow. At least I have Alan Watts's lectures to calm and soothe me.

This actually sounds more like enneagram 9 problems than EII ones. The most common tips for 9s are: Try to work on your self-esteem, until you can sense that your contribution to the world is wanted and appreciated. Maybe make a list of things you wish for yourself, things you're worthy of. Achieve them.

Se skills that could help you are : learn to say no when you don't want something, try to be more present and engaged with the world, get to know your physical strength because you have more than you imagine

Not sure if I'm a 9, but your advice applies to me anyway. I've already started my self-esteem improvement by creating this thread that I was scared to create because I'm scared of people, lol. But I'm also excited because maybe I can make a positive impact.

My self-esteem will be improved if:
-I can make people feel happy after a bad day
-My words soothe people
-I make people feel loved and welcomed
-I can be brave and know what I want

I think Jung said too much idealism is dangerous though... maybe I should just be more present and engaged. Thanks for the encouragement

[consentingadult]

My self-esteem will be improved if:
-I can make people feel happy after a bad day
-My words soothe people
-I make people feel loved and welcomed
-I can be brave and know what I want

Obviously this is a bit of a short description to go by, but generally speaking it is not a good thing if your self-esteem is dependent on the reactions of other people. True self-esteem is generated from within.

Self-esteem is actually a very complex phenomenon. Many authors implicit or explicit definition is quite simple, something like the confidence one radiates, something one can learn by giving oneself a positive-language pep talk into the mirror twice a day. The psychologist Nathaniel Branden, who wrote extensively on the matter and is considered in fact as the founder of the Self-Esteem movement, considers it a much more complicated phenomenon. True self-esteem is robust, can deal with a blow and doesn't suffer at the slightest setback. Branden defines self-esteem as:

the disposition to experience oneself as competent to cope with the basic challenges of life and as worthy of happiness", and proposed that, while others (parents, teachers, friends) can nurture and support self-esteem in an individual, self-esteem also relies upon various internally generated practices

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan...of_self-esteem

Branden's books a fantastic reads, but like most self-help books, they don't really tell you what steps you need to take to get from A to B. Still, the can give a good picture of what it is any healthy human being should strive for. I can say it is the basic goal of my personal life. I often joke that I don't mind dying, but if I die, I would like that to happen in a period of my life when my self-esteem is high, so that I don't have to look back at my life having been wasted or unfinished.

ETA: I don't know where you live, but the book might actually have been translated into your local language.

[lurker]

Obviously this is a bit of a short description to go by, but generally speaking it is not a good thing if your self-esteem is dependent on the reactions of other people. True self-esteem is generated from within.

It's okay because I'm not trying to rush myself into becoming confident. But what I wrote are my honest feelings, unhealthy or not.

Self-esteem is actually a very complex phenomenon. Many authors implicit or explicit definition is quite simple, something like the confidence one radiates, something one can learn by giving oneself a positive-language pep talk into the mirror twice a day. The psychologist Nathaniel Branden, who wrote extensively on the matter and is considered in fact as the founder of the Self-Esteem movement, considers it a much more complicated phenomenon. True self-esteem is robust, can deal with a blow and doesn't suffer at the slightest setback. Branden defines self-esteem as:

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan...of_self-esteem

Branden's books a fantastic reads, but like most self-help books, they don't really tell you what steps you need to take to get from A to B. Still, the can give a good picture of what it is any healthy human being should strive for. I can say it is the basic goal of my personal life. I often joke that I don't mind dying, but if I die, I would like that to happen in a period of my life when my self-esteem is high, so that I don't have to look back at my life having been wasted or unfinished.

I don't see any need to quickly get from A to B. You mention to someone that you have low self-esteem and they say, "fix fix fix!"
I think it's worn me out. These psychologists wear me out. Might even be part of the problem, if you ask me. Just let me develop my personality in all its awkwardness and quirkiness. Not a personal attack against you- just my real reaction and... opposition, I guess.

ETA: I don't know where you live, but the book might actually have been translated into your local language.

Doubt it. Plus, I'm not fluent in the language of this country.

[Lord Pixel]

It's okay because I'm not trying to rush myself into becoming confident. But what I wrote are my honest feelings, unhealthy or not.



I don't see any need to quickly get from A to B. You mention to someone that you have low self-esteem and they say, "fix fix fix!"
I think it's worn me out. These psychologists wear me out. Might even be part of the problem, if you ask me. Just let me develop my personality in all its awkwardness and quirkiness. Not a personal attack against you- just my real reaction and... opposition, I guess.



Doubt it. Plus, I'm not fluent in the language of this country.

Preach! That's exactly how I feel. "True self esteem is generated from within." I hear that so often but I'm still left with the question "How?". And the only thing I can come up with is having such a big ego that you believe you can do anything despite having the evidence to back up having such a big ego.

Validation is simple and easy to understand, you feel good when you're treated good. But this self esteem, confidence generated from with in sounds nice, sounds great, but never makes sense to me. It's just vague and leaves me confused, like I missed something at birth.

For me personally it's not self generated. It comes from experience (and I feel like intuitively we know that despite all the advice saying it's comes from within). If you do something over and over again eventually you get good at it and become confident that you can succeed at it if you do it again, instead of magical belief in your big ego. And in the beginning you probably weren'tconfident doing the thing like you are now. This doesn't come from within, but experience.

For example. I remember the first time I drove a car by myself ( I was 27 so I was an adult the first time I did). I was not confident at all, I was anxiety ridden. But I had to do it to commute to work, so despite completely lacking confidence, I did it, and I almost killed myself and another person trying to do a U turn ( I turned too much and ended up almost crossing over into the opposing lane with incoming traffic.) After that day I never wanted to drive again in my life, my hands were visibly shaking once I got out the car, I couldn't wait to get out that death machine. And I was ridden with so many insecurities about being an adult who didn't know how to drive I felt embarrassed pumping gas because I thought someone would leap out and make fun of me saying I was doing it wrong. That's how silly my anxiety made me think. But now, I barely even think twice about driving, have practically no fear that I don't know what I'm doing when I'm in the car, I'm calm about the whole thing, and to me that's confidence "self esteem" and all that good stuff, but none of it is self generated out of thin air just because I think I'm some hotshot who can do anything, but generated from experience, I've done this before and succeeded, I'm confident I can do it again. "Confidence comes from within" I could saying that in the morning til I'm blue in the face but honestly has never helped me become confident. Experience is the only self esteem I know to be true.

Break your knee and then have confidence you can do surgery on yourself to fix it. That's what self generated confidence sounds like to me. But I bet you'd trust an experienced doctor.

And affirmations to me seem ridiculous, the only reason you even repeat these "positive mantras" to yourself over and over again is because you don't actually believe them.

[lurker]

Experience is the only self esteem I know to be true.

Agree 100%. I like your stories

[xerx]

Thank you for the recommendation. Unfortunately, I live somewhere that doesn't permit me access to the book. I'm still young though, so this issue may be something I have to outgrow. At least I have Alan Watts's lectures to calm and soothe me.

There's a website called Library Genesis which has tons of free books. Link

Here's a direct link to the specific book being mentioned: Link.

Also,

I probably don't need to tell you this, but if your country has strict levels of censorship, I would be very careful about where you go on the Internet. If your country has an Internet security apparatus, then coming to this website could be problematic and get you in trouble.

[lurker]

I probably don't need to tell you this, but if your country has strict levels of censorship, I would be very careful about where you go on the Internet. If your country has an Internet security apparatus, then coming to this website could be problematic and get you in trouble.

Why would visiting this website get me in trouble? There is Internet censorship but a site like this one seems harmless to me.

Thank you for the links

[xerx]

Why would visiting this website get me in trouble? There is Internet censorship but a site like this one seems harmless to me.

Well, there's political discussion sometimes.

Thank you for the links

You're welcome.