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Thread: Is the male aggressor romantic-style outdated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Ni-types do seem to have trouble with that. They seem to have much understanding of and insight into everyone but themselves; the ones that I've known were so convinced that they were right or righteous that I doubted that they ever took the time to analyse themselves. They also seemed to want to avoid details that might detract from the positive outcomes for which they strove.

    a.k.a. I/O
    @Rebelondeck, that's a feature, not a bug.

    Seriously, I think a blindness to certain aspects of reality is what makes LIE's so effective at reaching goals. LIE's refuse to look at failure modes, once a single path has been decided upon. Prior to that decision, though, they will seek out as much information about the future branches as can be had in a reasonable amount of time. After the decision is made, though, it's carved in stone until they either succeed or hit some wall that is so insurmountable that the attempt fails.

    What makes this strategy even marginally successful is the fact that there are many ways to success, but they all require perseverance. So you can screw up your initial conditions, as long as you are willing to do what it takes to get to your goal.

    LIE's tend to be successful in direct proportion to their ability to make the right choices from that gathered information, because all the LIE's that I know become set in their purpose once it is decided. Learning this can be a painful process.

    I have some very expensive machine tools that are evidence of this. I was able to get them for a good price but I didn't have an immediate need for them, but thought I would in the future. When the crane arrived to unload them from the flat bed truck, my LSE buddy, who is much more immediate than I am, said "Adam. There's still time. You can call this off and send the machines back."
    I said, "No, Don. We're sticking to the plan."

    He was right. I should have sent the machines back. I don't miss the money, but they are taking up space that could be used more productively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Ni-types do seem to have trouble with that. They seem to have much understanding of and insight into everyone but themselves; the ones that I've known were so convinced that they were right or righteous that I doubted that they ever took the time to analyse themselves. They also seemed to want to avoid details that might detract from the positive outcomes for which they strove.

    a.k.a. I/O
    This is a pretty insightful post. I just realized I have more to say about it.

    One of the things that puzzle me about the 22 other LIE's that I know is that every single one of them is actively disinterested in personality theory. It's not like they don't know about it. It's much more that they don't WANT to know anything about it.

    I've been in conversations with a lot of people of all types, and LIE's are the most resistant of all types to consider that people have personalities. I even had one LIE tell me, after I explained to him what he could expect from a mutual acquaintance based on his sociotype, "You might be right. That's possible, and now I'm going to do my best to forget everything you said."
    "Why?", I asked. I view Socionics as a tool.
    "Because it would influence me in how I treat people in the future."
    So he preferred going with his gut, associating with people he instinctively liked and avoiding people he didn't like, and telling himself that he was lord and master of his universe.
    He wasn't a very successful LIE, as LIE's go, incidentally.

    And as for LIE's characteristic of avoiding and omitting unpleasant details of a project in their pitch, yes, that's definitely a criticism I've heard about LIE's before. No one can say that LIE's lie, exactly. But you have to ask a lot of questions (or at least, I do) before you will get to the truth, which is that they really don't know if the project will succeed or not.
    The saving grace of this is that I've never met an LIE who was trying to harm someone else, personally. They usually don't let you play unless you can deal with a failed project and not be harmed by it.

    In the financial world, which was probably created by LIE's, there is this practice, I forget what it's called, wherein companies seeking investors are not allowed to accept investments from people for whom a complete loss of their investment would be a disaster. Investors have to prove that they have a certain level of investable assets.
    https://www.sec.gov/info/smallbus/se...ndard-secg.htm
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-02-2020 at 03:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Ni-types do seem to have trouble with that. They seem to have much understanding of and insight into everyone but themselves; the ones that I've known were so convinced that they were right or righteous that I doubted that they ever took the time to analyse themselves. They also seemed to want to avoid details that might detract from the positive outcomes for which they strove.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Most ethicals do this, not just Ni. Most ethical types are convinced of their righteousness in one way or another. Logical Intuitives just analyse themselves or their behavior when something (like the consequence of their actions) force them to do it.
    Last edited by Mila; 08-02-2020 at 04:18 PM.

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    Above was said mainly in related to Se types specifics.

    More general point.
    If women will become in average similarly or higher predisposed to an aggression, especially to physical one, compared to average for men, - then an aggression (in the sense of an initiative and an persistence) may be said as "outdated" as more specific for men. In relations of sexes, wide social activitity, hierarchy leveling, anger related and other. One of strong factors to keep the % of sexes difference at occupations is that women much of the time give to be pregnant and caring about children - every of kids reduces or makes harder to match duties on the time for >=2 years.
    A part of such psyche and cultural situation would be the equal % of men and women in army, for example. What is not common for today. Also at high posts at jobs, scientific results, etc. Though, for some duties men +30% muscles strenght and more stable psyche/physical state (men have no significant month cycles) may keep the difference, - not many of such occupations should be.

    Aggression in women, compared to men, could be evolutionally supressed (in women normal psyche state) as this made them worse mothers. Also to be perceived as lesser feminine and lesser attractive for men. Being constantly pregnant and having small kids they needed much of an external care, while to get this is passive behavior, what is opposite to be aggressive. Also an aggression in the part related to anger is bad for caring about other people, especially for tender and weak small kids.
    As an example of biological difference, look about testosteron levels at sexes and its influence on emotions.

    When in today medias propaganda you may see the pushing new "normas" of aggressive women and soft men - this is made to reduce sexual instincts which are directed to born and upbring children in good families. Such to reduce borning of people. Also to supress the psyche by pushing norms contradicting to its basics, to neurotise people and such to make them weaker and with worse social links - such to make people better controlled.

    So taking inborn psyche predispositions and social situation it's far to say about outdated difference in an aggression of sexes.

    =

    There is what can be said as outdated. And the behavior against that in today west cultures is doubtful to be thought as decent and those people to be not good enough.
    This relates to general status of women, - to perceive women _generally_ equal in intellectual and personality senses. Some cultures of the past overesteemated the difference or shaw it falsly, what could be partly useful as to explain social difference which was reasonable for that cultures (useful myths). For example, voting in democracy of Greece was allowed only for men as women set at home duties and knew lesser about wider world.
    While it's objective that women have worse some physical traits and some lesser stable psyche, while having some traits as better than men too. It's possibly there are more F types among women and so lesser of them are good in technical tasks, while more % of women should deal good with informal communications. There can be other objective differences of sexes, at least for most people of that sex. This difference makes men or women as better for some duties and activities, in average, at least in the sense of lesser efforts needed for a training.

    This difference of sexes sometimes could lead to wrong understanding and unjustiful misuse. As example, when generally a man was supposed as more weighty in decisions in a family, but not equal - while it's against what a friendship and love feeling is. Sometimes could lead even to moral right of beating a wife (but not from her side) and in some primitive cultures up to treat wives alike slaves. When parrents decided who to be a husband for a daughter ; though such traditions lesser but also exist for men too (when parrents may choose a wife) and even today in some places.
    This misuse of sex differences relates to general personal man _domination_. While this domination indirectly and partly may relate to aggressive behavior. Mainly it was about wider and more complex social activity of men, and consequences of ways to explain and to support this situation.
    Aggression and domination is not the same. They only cross partly. The problem is in the approach of general personal inequality of sexes, the idea of what was popular in past cultures. It's better to think sexes as personally equal (against what lesbians and infantile women like to do in hating and blaming men for anything bad).
    But it's also needs to accept that men have more aggressive psyche as their norma, - as they were evolutionally adopted to be hunters, unlike women which were attached to home duties and kids. To be more aggressive itself does not mean to do bad or a harm - it's mainly to have wider activity and to be more stubborn in achieving aims ; and secondary to be better adopted for dangers and fightings alike wars, social competing, conflicts. The idea to supress men higher aggressive traits is bad, the good is to channel the aggressive behavior to useful ways. The idea to gain aggressive and competing traits in women is bad too, the good is to develop indirect ways of influence to overcome direct collisions and stressful situations. The do the opposite leads to problems for relations of sexes, with borning and upbringing, for psyche.
    Last edited by Sol; 08-03-2020 at 12:39 AM.

  5. #45
    Maybe I'm a Lion Great's Avatar
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    Yeah, ime I've had to become more smoother. What comes naturally to me doesn't really work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Girls get horny too, and any normal-looking dude who approaches them can skip past their quality-control. He'll seem funny, or 'kind of cute', or whatever. While the rest of us are working or studying, there are guys who cruise around for sixteen hours a day looking for pussy. If you talk to hundreds girls, then, by the law of averages, at least one of them is going to have sex with you.
    Sanity about the world of sex is so cool and unusual. You win

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    Could also be a quadra complex reaction, for Gamma it is explicitly stated that they tend to react to transgressions by action, which is often translated to physical force.
    I still think that there a certain situations where you deserve to be punched, and i think this is widely accepted norm.
    It belongs to having a respectful interaction to react to certain ways of disrespect with challenging the other person to a fight.
    This is usually widely understood and the only people who will cry wolf afterwards are (narcissistic) Alpha quadra Members imE.
    Still could be a lot of sub-cultural imprinting that makes me think that way but usually, if your opponent is not a spiritually effeminate ESE, you are a lot cooler with each-other after things have been settled, no matter who has won, everybody has proven their point and you respect each-other more.

    But yes, the gut reaction is probably something you (I) should get over, can also be an overreacting amygdala due to violent upbringing. I still don't think that violence has to be immoral but depending on the ehtical qualities of your opponent you give them ammunition they can use against you in a Society regulated by Si Valuing people.
    Not everyone belongs to your idea of masculinity. People are different. We're all individuals. I, for one, am one of those spiritually effeminate EIIs. I have Se PoLR and all of that. If someone physically attacked me, there would be no happy ending to that. Believe me. I would not be cooler with that person. I would hold a grudge forever, and never be abled to forgive or forget.

    It's their body. They have the right to have it remain unharmed. Even if they're assholes, I do believe they have the right to speak their mind without getting beaten up. I do believe in freedom of speech. We can't just punch people just because we don't like what words come out of their mouth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    I don't believe it's always how you were raised. My parents were the opposite of this and my gut reaction still has always been to punch assholes in the face.
    Maybe you picked it up somewhere else. It makes sense to me that if you treat someone with violence, then you're teaching them to use violence also. It's hard to pick up any positive lessons from a world full of negative people. You need a positive role model. You need to be exposed to positivity, wise people, etc. in order to grow as a person, in my opinion. If you're only exposed to negativity, violent people, etc. then there is no way to grow out of it, because you're not exposed to anything else.
    EII-INFj / INFP / Strong E4 and 9 energy / Melancholic-Phlegmatic / Musical-Intrapersonal-Spatial / Kinky-Sensual

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Aggressor as applied in Socionics is a dubious term. The animalistic prime directive of most normal, heterosexual males is to impregnate females in a possessive, controlling/manipulative fashion. Type may, to a limited extent, determine how this urge is likely masked and visible aggressiveness indicates less capability to mask true intentions, which isn't limited to specific types. Now attractive men usually have bigger herds from which to choose but those aggressive urges are still ever present; if they aren't then males should have their testosterone levels checked. Being socially inept is a much broader problem that could also lead to them not chasing women; one should not confuse clumsiness with aggression. Most normal, heterosexual females are sexually 'thirsty' but cognition, in a similar fashion, masks their urges too.

    a.k.a. I/O
    again, nope. read the science on this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Aggressor as applied in Socionics is a dubious term. The animalistic prime directive of most normal, heterosexual males is to impregnate females in a possessive, controlling/manipulative fashion. Type may, to a limited extent, determine how this urge is likely masked and visible aggressiveness indicates less capability to mask true intentions, which isn't limited to specific types. Now attractive men usually have bigger herds from which to choose but those aggressive urges are still ever present; if they aren't then males should have their testosterone levels checked. Being socially inept is a much broader problem that could also lead to them not chasing women; one should not confuse clumsiness with aggression. Most normal, heterosexual females are sexually 'thirsty' but cognition, in a similar fashion, masks their urges too.

    a.k.a. I/O
    "New scientific evidence refutes the preconception that testosterone causes aggressive, egocentric, and risky behavior."https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091208132241.htm

    incel or PUA ideology and myth but not science

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    I'm still in kindergarten, I like to playfully tease women and if one responds positively <.< just ask her on a date lol, if she says she has bf, on to the next one. *shrug*

    Its gonna suck down the line if she responds badly to playful teasing, cus I do it a lot. Ideally the response should be " :> " and teasing back. Idk, its like a test jab I think. Input-output.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Ni-types do seem to have trouble with that. They seem to have much understanding of and insight into everyone but themselves; the ones that I've known were so convinced that they were right or righteous that I doubted that they ever took the time to analyse themselves. They also seemed to want to avoid details that might detract from the positive outcomes for which they strove.

    a.k.a. I/O
    That explains a lot tbh.
    Last edited by SGF; 08-03-2020 at 04:10 AM.

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    I feel like maybe I should comment but I don’t really know what to say. I feel like different strokes for different folks is pretty obvious, though I agree with @nanashi that confidence seems to be pretty universally attractive. Personally I prefer to be the one who is more in control but I would say my type is still in the minority as a woman. I want someone who watches and knows how to wait to respond to my cues and desires.

    In any case, no I don’t think it’s outdated, it’s just that “aggressor” male style faces a lot more potential negative repercussions nowadays due to the social climate and SJWs. If I were myself with the same sex drive and desires but as a male, I might even be in jail lol. Whenever I hear that guys are hesitant to make moves on girls for fear of it being labeled as harassment, it’s always aggressor guys who are doing the complaining. They are not as good at being subtly charming in an indirect non-physical way and I understand that, so I don’t fault them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I feel like maybe I should comment but I don’t really know what to say. I feel like different strokes for different folks is pretty obvious, though I agree with @nanashi that confidence seems to be pretty universally attractive. Personally I prefer to be the one who is more in control but I would say my type is still in the minority as a woman. I want someone who watches and knows how to wait to respond to my cues and desires.
    I doubt you're in the minority. I think myth/controlling ppl just tell us that. I grew up with ppl telling me, a female, 'how women are'. It didn't match reality, what they were saying, but it was the story they worked hard to keep repeating to themselves and trying to train me to repeat. Some women and men happen to be close enough to their narrative that they just have to change slightly to comply. It just doesn't gel for me...and I keep thinking 'the emperor has no clothes.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I doubt you're in the minority. I think myth/controlling ppl just tell us that. I grew up with ppl telling me, a female, 'how women are'. It didn't match reality, what they were saying, but it was the story they worked hard to keep repeating to themselves and trying to train me to repeat. Some women and men happen to be close enough to their narrative that they just have to change slightly to comply. It just doesn't gel for me...and I keep thinking 'the emperor has no clothes.'
    I mean like I actually don’t like it when I’m pursued, I think it’s a huge turnoff actually. But I still think more women prefer to have guys make more of the moves or ask them out or something. Maybe that “minority” is becoming less of a minority nowadays but it’s just my impression from the other women I’ve known. I think most women would still think of how I act as lowering myself somehow but I don’t see it that way.

    Are you saying that you actually think there are equal if not more women who are like me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    It just doesn't gel for me...and I keep thinking 'the emperor has no clothes.'
    I kinda get where you’re coming from though. It’s like if someone has to keep hammering something into you for no apparent reason, it might be because it’s bs that they barely even believe in themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I mean like I actually don’t like it when I’m pursued, I think it’s a huge turnoff actually. But I still think more women prefer to have guys make more of the moves or ask them out or something. Maybe that “minority” is becoming less of a minority nowadays but it’s just my impression from the other women I’ve known. I think most women would still think of how I act as lowering myself somehow but I don’t see it that way.

    Are you saying that you actually think there are equal if not more women who are like me?
    I hate when I'm interrupted in my important work to respond to someone who doesn't even have chemistry with me. It's like a selfish, stupid game they force me to play that is not fun. They interrupt me and I'm supposed to drop my current errand because THEY say I SHOULD give 'us' a chance. Yes. That's happened to me so often. It is so selfish and condescending. I literally was singing myself a love song walking home having sent my fiance back across an ocean until we could see each other again, and I can't see this partner for months, and we'd shared a home together for weeks, and I have some serious work at home in my empty house, but I'm interrupted by a stranger who doesn't give a shit about how I feel and accosts me.

    Same with the ppl whom I kindly explain I don't want to date them. I'm supposed to override my own mind because THEY say I SHOULD give 'us' a chance.Their assessment matters to them. Mine doesn't not. When I point this out to them, some realize how messed up that actually is...and how crappy that would be for them...to be with someone who didn't choose them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I hate when I'm interrupted in my important work to respond to someone who doesn't even have chemistry with me. It's like a selfish, stupid game they force me to play that is not fun. They interrupt me and I'm supposed to drop my current errand because THEY say I SHOULD give 'us' a chance. Yes. That's happened to me so often. It is so selfish and condescending. I literally was singing myself a love song walking home having sent my fiance back across an ocean until we could see each other again, and I can't see this partner for months, and we'd shared a home together for weeks, and I have some serious work at home in my empty house, but I'm interrupted by a stranger who doesn't give a shit about how I feel and accosts me.

    Same with the ppl whom I kindly explain I don't want to date them. I'm supposed to override my own mind because THEY say I SHOULD give 'us' a chance.Their assessment matters to them. Mine doesn't not. When I point this out to them, some realize how messed up that actually is...and how crappy that would be for them...to be with someone who didn't choose them.
    Lol yes exactly, especially the bolded. Interesting that you’d feel that way too though even as a socionics “victim”.

    I guess most women would have the same reaction. Problem is, for most guys it’s either this or they just stay passive mainly. Not everyone knows how to be smooth or subtle.

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    my best experiences? Some ESI dude is arrested in his motion by something I do (I mean he sort of is startled or transfixed). He pauses a second.

    Do I look busy? Do your own work and don't interfere with mine. I'm often en route to work or on an important errand, and it's disrespectful to ask me to evaluate you for dating as a stranger when I'm midaction on something else. My brain's midjump at the pole vault, and you're screaming while I'm in the air.


    Noticing you notice me and value my actions and then don't interfere with me is already great in my book.


    Conversely, we're at a party or recreational event? literally just standing next to me after I do something you like, like we're partners/teammates works great. totally fell in love with that guy.

    I complimented his voice because I was impressed with it when he sang the next lyrics to a line I randomly chortled out. I wasn't even flirting. I was being honest and managing the atmosphere for the quiet introverts.

    he just aligned himself with me after a few sincere compliments from me throughout the night, and I knew he was kinda 'joining me', and I got worried I'd disappoint him because I didn't know he had tattoos sleeves under that perfectly starched three piece suit (some ESI dress the f up), and I was just winging it with a dress I pulled over my tank top, and my hair was dyed bright red, and he just quietly sat next to me in his suit looking straightlaced as fuck, and not knowing I was going commando, and I was over here thinking I should maybe explain how not appropriate for him I am (since I was getting Si vibes from him, and I'm that person who doesn't remember to wash their choners after the gym in time for a party and has to go commando under their long dress and just wings so much in life and don't want his disapppointment), but I decided to let it play out when our mutual buddy said the guy wasn't like that. He offered to drive me when our doctor friend said we should all leave to go dancing. He just felt like someone I'd known for years, and we weren't even talking much, but his presence was palpable. Then he tells her he appreciated I just let him be himself when we sat at the bar for a drink at the latin club. We danced. Great music. but every movement seemed like communication. he actually paid attention to and saw me and didn't try to corral me like so many men do to me. I like creativity in dancing, and I have never fit that 'penis ppl direct the clit ppl around the dancefloor thing.' Our dancing was collaborative. We rejoined the group, and I started enjoying a charismatic discussion. Then some latin dance professional said I wasn't allowed to lead sometimes. It was the stupidest, most pointless rule this person was perpetuating. I found myself instinctually on my feet and striding to the dance floor. The now righthand man had jumped up when I did and was there at my side, and we danced hella sexy, and when we returned the professional dancers either were clapping or literally had their mouth hanging open. he'd just been taught a simple box step that night, but because we made sense together, we shocked ppl with a decade of rigid training in bachata, etc. we just did our own thing. He showed up for me.

    I know it sounds cliche, but ENTJs love enterprise. Getting in our way is torture for gamma quadra members.

    I can sense your skillset. joining up. shoulder to shoulder, etc. work or play


    I know this isn't everyone's thing, but it's great for me. I should wear a sign or something.
    Last edited by nanashi; 08-03-2020 at 05:38 AM.

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    Damn I’m doing coffee with 50 shades of nanashi at work today lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Damn I’m doing coffee with 50 shades of nanashi at work today lol
    that made me laugh really hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    People are same. At least those who have normal sexual interests. It's too instinctual and has more chance to be supressed, than changed.

    Any action is an aggression. To be stubborn is important to achieve something not easy. Se types are the most stubborn and most direct, also most jealous to protect what they want or have. It's among main traits of their "aggressor tactics". Also they may more often gift expensive things.
    Ni types initially play in push games even when they like you, as think "if he likes me seriously - he'll be trying seriously, if he'll get me easily - I'll be lesser interesting for him, his feelings will be lesser and he will lesser value me and our relations later to invest in this". Ni types value money and expensive gifts, are charmed by this - they significantly measure by material investments in them the own value for that human and even in general. Se types have the most to deal with their games and needs.

    > It’s usually only unattractive, socially inept men who resort to chasing/“aggressor tactics”

    There is a difference between propaganda and real world. That propaganda exaggerates and tries to reduce natural sexual behavior by negative images of that to destroy cores of peoples personality and to make softer slaves. The other example of that is "gender" philosophy and homosexuality "norma" nonsense.
    Se/Ni types seems are closest to cultural ideals of man-warrior (Se) and woman-princess (Ni) for who they fight. Se types fight in most direct way. So when you read about them - you think alike "ah those outdated phreaks" about which my favorite youtube homo-blogger and band of man-hating lesbians talked a lot. But they talked against normal behavior of normal people, in general - they are used to supress normal people which are the majority.

    nope. i don't like expensive gifts.

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    IME Aggressor guys seem like they’re proactive and cooperative in relationships, but they actually are more towards the physically passive side when it comes to “Se”, unless they have actual problems. Non-Se ego type guys have been way more physically aggressive from what I’ve seen both with myself and with other women. Se in ego means they’re more conscious and in control of it. Ni and Ne egos are much less in control of themselves, even Si leads/egos sometimes.

    I think I will agree with OP though that caretaker guy approach in irl seems the most idealized in society. Pass on that from me though, I’m not gonna have a guy put me in diapers and try to change them for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Not everyone belongs to your idea of masculinity. People are different. We're all individuals. I, for one, am one of those spiritually effeminate EIIs. I have Se PoLR and all of that. If someone physically attacked me, there would be no happy ending to that. Believe me. I would not be cooler with that person. I would hold a grudge forever, and never be abled to forgive or forget.

    It's their body. They have the right to have it remain unharmed. Even if they're assholes, I do believe they have the right to speak their mind without getting beaten up. I do believe in freedom of speech. We can't just punch people just because we don't like what words come out of their mouth.
    I even do completely agree with you here.
    Also i am not someone who subscribes to traditional masculinity in any way.
    Its not about speaking their mind, it was about bullying and suppressing people, publicly humiliating every surrounding that dares to challenge this person in any way, even it is just a subjective whim only to establish some kind of vain 'dominance'.
    When you want to behave like this super tough guy who likes to hurt other people for no good reason and to attack the dignity of everyone around only for your own feeling of self importance you deserve everything thats coming to you.
    This is not a situation where you have an right to cry and play the victim, if you get a reasonable and even soft rebuff according to the harm you have caused.

    Also spiritually effeminate probably tried to describe something else than what you think about.
    I like ethicals and am a very soft person myself that could not care less who wants him to act 'manly' and suppress their sensitivity.
    It's about having no - and i mean absolutely no - code of honor, responsibility for their own actions and ability to face the consequences. It was meant to describe a person that has about all bad female traits to an extreme degree. Probably simply what comes out when having an ESE with a very bad character, it is not about the gender its about the means a person has to be shitty and as a FeSi those are stereotypically female in their manifestation.

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    It's gonna sound cliché, but all romantic styles are valid.

    I know non Se valuers usually look down on Aggressor types as "rapey" and such, but I think it's fine, I mean, they are what they are. Victims dig that, even the ones that deny it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Not everyone belongs to your idea of masculinity. People are different. We're all individuals. I, for one, am one of those spiritually effeminate EIIs. I have Se PoLR and all of that. If someone physically attacked me, there would be no happy ending to that. Believe me. I would not be cooler with that person. I would hold a grudge forever, and never be abled to forgive or forget.

    It's their body. They have the right to have it remain unharmed. Even if they're assholes, I do believe they have the right to speak their mind without getting beaten up. I do believe in freedom of speech. We can't just punch people just because we don't like what words come out of their mouth.




    Maybe you picked it up somewhere else. It makes sense to me that if you treat someone with violence, then you're teaching them to use violence also. It's hard to pick up any positive lessons from a world full of negative people. You need a positive role model. You need to be exposed to positivity, wise people, etc. in order to grow as a person, in my opinion. If you're only exposed to negativity, violent people, etc. then there is no way to grow out of it, because you're not exposed to anything else.
    I love reading what my EII brethen say, you're all the cute wholesome ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    This tbh, it seems to seem that this is universally liked because most people (it seems that women are especially affected by this) tend to be normalizing sub-types.
    There is no need to be a asshole or act like like a 'tough guy' it is not even needed to be competent.
    Women are attracted to you for different reasons, some of them are Victimish or Childlike behavior depending on the ego functions.
    Caregiver Women like to give care and will be endeared by Ne goofiness and helplesness in Practical matters while Se women like playful submission and weakness as long as you are able to keep up with her games.

    ImE the most important things are Chemistry (depends a lot on Instincts) Looks and Ego Functions (and their Subtype accentuation). So typical Fatherly or Badass behavior is mostly mandatory to be attractive to Ne and Ni egos.

    Creative Subtypes are best attracted by harmonizing behavior, and yes to pull a normalizer you should be the typical 'dominant' Douchebag that pop cutlure wants to turn everybody into by false common sense but otherwise it is not needed, not at all.
    Be a good person, have matching instincts and ego functions, most of it really is compatibility and then, while being compatible being authentic.
    Yes being successful helps but in my experience when there is a strong instinctual and Perceiving function attraction mostly in a sense of social desirability of you as a mate, not for the sake of raw attraction.
    I agree. As a childlike NF type, I like women who take care of me. Mostly SLI women I've seen are very daddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Something View Post
    I love reading what my EII brethen say, you're all the cute wholesome ones.
    Thank you. That's very sweet of you. I appreciate it. You strike me as a man who's not afraid of his own femininity or vulnerability, and I admire that.
    EII-INFj / INFP / Strong E4 and 9 energy / Melancholic-Phlegmatic / Musical-Intrapersonal-Spatial / Kinky-Sensual

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    You strike me as a man who's not afraid of his own femininity or vulnerability, and I admire that.
    I don't think these things you mention (awareness of one's vulnerability) are mutually exclusive to expressions of masculinity.

    I'm not gonna get into Odysseus (the patriarchal hero) crying in Homer's writings, but the point is that the "traditional" conception we have of gender doesn't go back very far in time and isn't very broad in scope.

    Of course, there are different personalities, and everyone tends to express these things a bit differently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Thank you. That's very sweet of you. I appreciate it. You strike me as a man who's not afraid of his own femininity or vulnerability, and I admire that.
    Delta ST women seem to really dig that about me tbh

    And thanks bruh! you seem cool!

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Why are you violent? What exactly do you feel punching people in the face is gonna accomplish?
    Nothing. He's the typical Se mobilising guy trying to let people know how TOUGH he is to hide some sort of insecurity.

    Si polrs are the saddest fellas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    Women are attracted to you for different reasons, some of them are Victimish or Childlike behavior depending on the ego functions.
    Caregiver Women like to give care and will be endeared by Ne goofiness and helplesness in Practical matters

    Just to clarify things, because that seems to imply irresistible attraction to helplessness on the part of Si-egos when it’s not necessarily that: I’d be willing to say caregiver women in alpha find Ne-egos of the same quadra the most intellectually interesting and the least clingy of the whole bunch of men available. Ne helplessness is something that does not bother them, not something they actively look for (consciously, anyway). In case there is a Ne-ego thinking they should overplay their hand faking complete uselessness at life.
    Last edited by Rusal; 08-04-2020 at 05:50 AM.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    IME Aggressor guys seem like they’re proactive and cooperative in relationships, but they actually are more towards the physically passive side when it comes to “Se”, unless they have actual problems. Non-Se ego type guys have been way more physically aggressive from what I’ve seen both with myself and with other women. Se in ego means they’re more conscious and in control of it. Ni and Ne egos are much less in control of themselves, even Si leads/egos sometimes.

    I think I will agree with OP though that caretaker guy approach in irl seems the most idealized in society. Pass on that from me though, I’m not gonna have a guy put me in diapers and try to change them for me.

    Yah. I am a childlike and like to hurt people. I feed on fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Thank you. That's very sweet of you. I appreciate it. You strike me as a man who's not afraid of his own femininity or vulnerability, and I admire that.
    Well ofc, he is flaming gay e_e..lamo..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Something View Post
    It's gonna sound cliché, but all romantic styles are valid.

    I know non Se valuers usually look down on Aggressor types as "rapey" and such, but I think it's fine, I mean, they are what they are. Victims dig that, even the ones that deny it.
    Gulenko made such a stupid move comparing not rapey behavior to an attack. There's nothing attacky about Se.

    And there's nothing pedophilic about Si. etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Well ofc, he is flaming gay e_e..lamo..

    I laughed hard and probably almost woke up my roommate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    Just to clarify things, because that seems to imply irresistible attraction to helplessness on the part of Si-egos when it’s not necessarily that: I’d be willing to say caregiver women in alpha find Ne-egos of the same quadra the most intellectually interesting and the least clingy of the whole bunch of men available. Ne helplessness is something that does not bother them, not something they actively look for (consciously, anyway). In case there is a Ne-ego thinking they should overplay their hand faking complete uselessness at life.
    Off topic my bad. But do you think the Ne helplessness just makes the Si ego person feel useful in the other person's life, like they like to be counted on for "Si" things. Like in some way they feel appreciated.

    I remember one time someone invited me to a party and I thought I would have a hard time remembering the date so I asked an SEI friend of mine if they could text me to remind me, because they were real good with doing that. And when I asked her she had this smile on her face like if you asked grandma to bake you your favorite cookies even though she's busy. I know when one of my friends asked me to do that I quickly felt frustrated and told them "I can't remember your stuff for you, I have a hard time remembering my own stuff."

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    It's not played out, it just looks bad when it's not tempered with empathy/awareness. If you approach someone and you're confident you will have their attention. Mostly because of how rare it is, and you will be able to hold their attention because you are confident. But you have to use empathy to acknowledge that what you are doing is out of the norm, the affect that could have on someone (startle them, be awkward or random) and you have to acknowledge that the person you approached was up to something before you decided to interrupt them, showing you respect their time. Without that empathy/awareness you become the "aggressive" harasser people complain about, so pursuing is not the problem, lack of consideration is.

    And attractive girls are not gonna be thristy, unless they are SLE .
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 08-04-2020 at 06:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Off topic my bad. But do you think the Ne helplessness just makes the Si ego person feel useful in the other person's life, like they like to be counted on for "Si" things. Like in some way they feel appreciated.
    Totally. But it’s not a sweet rush to your self-esteem like you would expect. It’s more an idea like “I can’t believe this interesting person can lack so gravely in this inconsequential aspect of life. LOL. I can fix that.” But maybe each person is different.

    I had an ENTp friend in college (whose type I figured out only recently and thanks to a couple of forum members). I don’t know if other types even pay attention to this, but I can tell when somone has gone home and is well-rested when I see them, there is a ‘passaggio’ from one state to the other. Well, a weekend would go by and when I met her the following Monday I swear she looked like she was still on a roll from the previous Friday. No transition at all, although it’s obvious she had slept and showered, etc. I felt the urge to rub her shoulders and make her ‘release’. Or comb her hair, which was a bird’s nest (but I refrained; I didn’t want to imply I thought there was something wrong with her). This could be Si caregiving.

    BUT

    On other aspects she was so much mature than I was. She could cook better than me, knew more pubs to hang out at, she could organize her schedule like a grown up… Because she was so efficient, a dynamic was established where she was the serious one and I made all the jokes that had her laughing for days. There was little goofiness in her I didn’t deliver any strong Si as it’s commonly understood and yet, there we were.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    Haikus Dr PissBender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Well ofc, he is flaming gay e_e..lamo..
    Do I need to remind you you are the guy who takes pics of himself showing the middle finger and uses them as profile pics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    Totally. But it’s not a sweet rush to your self-esteem like you would expect. It’s more an idea like “I can’t believe this interesting person can lack so gravely in this inconsequential aspect of life. LOL. I can fix that.” But maybe each person is different.

    I had an ENTp friend in college (whose type I figured out only recently and thanks to a couple of forum members). I don’t know if other types even pay attention to this, but I can tell when somone has gone home and is well-rested when I see them, there is a ‘passaggio’ from one state to the other. Well, a weekend would go by and when I met her the following Monday I swear she looked like she was still on a roll from the previous Friday. No transition at all, although it’s obvious she had slept and showered, etc. I felt the urge to rub her shoulders and make her ‘release’. Or comb her hair, which was a bird’s nest (but I refrained; I didn’t want to imply I thought there was something wrong with her). This could be Si caregiving.

    BUT

    On other aspects she was so much mature than I was. She could cook better than me, knew more pubs to hang out at, she could organize her schedule like a grown up… Because she was so efficient, a dynamic was established where she was the serious one and I made all the jokes that had her laughing for days. There was little goofiness in her I didn’t deliver any strong Si as it’s commonly understood and yet, there we were.
    Si egos are immature shits. I am way more mature than my SLI bestie who happens to be older than me. Sweet rush my fucking self esteem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    "New scientific evidence refutes the preconception that testosterone causes aggressive, egocentric, and risky behavior."https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091208132241.htm

    incel or PUA ideology and myth but not science
    A male seems to need a modicum of testosterone to have any kind of sexual drive. Male drive (not testosterone) seems to linked to possessive, controlling/manipulative behaviour - like animals. This may not translate to observable aggression so I'll wait for a study involving orders of magnitude more than 120 people. In order to get laid one has to push into a crowd or schmooze a straggler; it's certainly not lay on one's back passive action.

    a.k.a. I/O

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