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Thread: SLE and ESI Supervisee/Supervisor Relations

  1. #1
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Default SLE and ESI Supervisee/Supervisor Relations

    SLE young adult male, living at the house of his ESE Dad (his Benefactee) and his dad's girlfriend, who is his dad's age, ESI, his Supervisor.

    It was ESI's lovely home, perfectly decorated, and well-taken care of many years while she raised her two children in the home, till they were college and almost done with high school, when she took up with my husband after kicking hers out first. My husband moved right in taking her husband's place with not much else changed. My son was finishing 3rd grade at the time and lived with me and his Dad had visitation.

    It seems a pretty peaceable house, but I am wondering what the undercurrent dynamics might be, especially because my son is very motivated to be independent, and he'd just started his first post-college career job, 7 months in, when covid hit and they laid most everyone off - right when he had almost put money down on his own apartment. Good thing he didn't, without work.

    But I know ESI's like command of their private space, so, I wonder how this long-term thing might be working out, or if there could be tensions brewing under the surface. All those years growing up my son would visit there for limited times, like a week or two in summer, and an occasional holiday all those years. He did spend a couple college summers there, but then he was working, and out with friends all the time, and when home was busy helping with yard work (and there's always plenty of that). But now suddenly he is there a lot. Last time he was here he mentioned that any time of the day he could predict exactly what part of he house she would be in and what she would be doing. I said, "Oh, that is interesting. A person of routine, like [my ISTp}. A routines can be comforting." My son answered, "I think that is the most boring, lame existence possible!" LOL, it's the only negative thing he has ever said of her. (he has never said much)

    Then I realized that they are all together, a LOT, and that was not my son's choice but because of covid. I looked up their relationship type - I don't know why I never did before, or if I did, I forgot, because it didn't seem important, with him seeing so little of her. But now I see she is his Supervisor/Auditor. So I am wondering, with this particular pair, in much daily close contact, what might you expect? I felt bad for my son when I remembered that one always feels like their Supervisor is watching them... And his faults would be glaring to her, and his strengths ignored...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    His relationship with his father's girlfriend will be somewhat more strained than that with the father himself. Both will likely understand the son but not be able to frame their perspectives in a way that the son would understand them or ever want to model himself after them. The relationship between spouses is a contrary relationship, which is somewhat of an improvement over that of the parents but not by much. There's a high probability that the son has witnessed poor interrelationships if any of the players have been selfish or immature or combative. The son's connection with the mother could be deep if there's stability, which is the only saving grace for him because the relationship with the SLI doesn't look that promising.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    His relationship with his father's girlfriend will be somewhat more strained than that with the father himself. Both will likely understand the son but not be able to frame their perspectives in a way that the son would understand them or ever want to model himself after them. The relationship between spouses is a contrary relationship, which is somewhat of an improvement over that of the parents but not by much. There's a high probability that the son has witnessed poor interrelationships if any of the players have been selfish or immature or combative. The son's connection with the mother could be deep if there's stability, which is the only saving grace for him because the relationship with the SLI doesn't look that promising.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Thanks for the feedback. Yes my SLE son in I have stable relations, but I have to be way more careful than with my Dual husband, or my mirror semi-dual friends. I always feel a caution. Sometimes it is very harmonious, and I am glad. But I annoy him at times, and then I usually apologize... My SLE son's relations with my SLI husband are good and show plenty of mutual respect. They are "Contrary" - so just the same as his ESE father and his ESI girlfriend. I asked my son what it is like with his dad and his girlfriend, and he says they/life at their house is "very boring". (Usually Contrary's should get along fine at home, the exception being when in the company of others, when they "compete", and it seems to be that way.)

    The annoyance I have wit my SLI husband is when SLE comes here he talks way too much! Not only were my son and I more quiet together in our long history as mom/son, but now that my son is older and has formed his own opinions and ways, I think and weigh my words more, and SLI seems to want to fill in all those necessary "thinking spaces" with continuous conversation! However, I usually privately ask my husband to please not do this, and he complies (though I think i have to remind him every time).

    So here is the incident that made me wonder and made me bring up the topic here in the first place.

    Last month, when my SLE son visited, I told him, "You may have heard me say before that your father is a Narcissist, and that that was behind the difficulty in our marriage." [I made sure to say almost nothing at all negative about his dad the whole time he was growing up, as his dad wanted to present himself as an amazing hero-dad, and I thought it best for my son to not interfere, and the truth would probably show itself when my son was older and could handle the truth better]. My son said, "I don't think he fits that description." I said, "Fine, form your own opinion, but that is mine after a lot of study." I asked my son, now that he was there at their house all time time because of covid, and his Dad, too, working from home, did he ever have a problems with his Dad's rages, or efforts to be controlling? He said that recently his Dad had done something he "didn't like". My son was out quite late, most of night, had drank with friends, did not feel well so was in bed nearing noon and his Dad stormed into his room and stood over him yelling, and where he was standing, with the room set up, there was no way out; he was boxed in. "That wasn't cool" he said (or something like that). I told him that it's from his Dad's own inner anxiety/fear, and because its deep, from childhood wounds, he will always get "beside himself" like that at times, but it was not his (my son's) fault but from a place of fear within his Dad. I also told him that his Dad would get physically close, in my face, while yelling furiously at me, too, meaning to scare me, and it did.

    But much later, reflecting on this, I looked up his Dad's girlfriends type, and that's when I was reminded she was his Supervisor. I really think, especially in the light of what my son had also told me on this visit - that he could tell, any time of the day, exactly what room she would be in and what she would doing, that she saw that he was sleeping in to an unreasonable hour and had a negative judgment on that, and went to complain to his father that there must be something wrong about a son who would sleep in so late... and that made him feel like he had to "take action" and start yelling about that. Yes, so I bet that came from her.... It's "her" house (even though she wouldn't have it without my ex's paycheck) and everything in it is just-so exactly, and she has a strict routine, and he was out of the routine, and if she decided to complain to ESE, it would be with a sureness that he ought to do something about it!

    I am going to suggest he keep as regular hours as possible and stay out of her way as much as possible. That's what you do with your supervisor, right? Stay out of their way.

    (I think that Contrary relations are better than Benefit because there is an equality there. The inequality of benefit and supervisor stinks, esp. when you are at the bad end of that. Also, I believe ex's ESI girlfriend is an invert narcissistic. It fits with what I know of her growing up, with a mother who married several times to different, successful men. Likely one or more of those failed marriages were to narcissists, so that is her normal. There are some other hints I have that this is the case. It would certainly explain the draw, and then the tolerance of typical narcissist's behaviors. So they are a better match than the benefit relations I had! And God blessed me with my dual now...)
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  4. #4
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    ^ @Eliza Thomason, in the above post, I can hear the IEE in your conversation with your son.

    Nice analysis, incidentally. And regarding Supervision: When you are around your Supervisor, you are on their territory. Your son might not "feel" that as a separate relation, since he actually is on her territory, so you can't expect him to see that part of the ITR from his perspective, but it's still there.

    It's a shame that your son and your husband are SLE and SLI. I've seen these two types get along as long as they didn't have to work together in any way. When they did have to work together, with the SLE working for the SLI, who didn't entirely respect the SLE's talents, the SLE did all he could to get fired. Then when that failed, the SLE quit.

    Your son really, really, really needs an IEI friend who can show him that life has a good side.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ^ @Eliza Thomason, in the above post, I can hear the IEE in your conversation with your son.

    Nice analysis, incidentally. And regarding Supervision: When you are around your Supervisor, you are on their territory. Your son might not "feel" that as a separate relation, since he actually is on her territory, so you can't expect him to see that part of the ITR from his perspective, but it's still there.

    It's a shame that your son and your husband are SLE and SLI. I've seen these two types get along as long as they didn't have to work together in any way. When they did have to work together, with the SLE working for the SLI, who didn't entirely respect the SLE's talents, the SLE did all he could to get fired. Then when that failed, the SLE quit.

    Your son really, really, really needs an IEI friend who can show him that life has a good side.
    Thanks for this feedback, Adam, but it was hard to respond because what you end with here - that my SLE very much needs his IEI dual - is painful, because it is true. And so often, the truth hurts. I want duality so much for him.

    I feel that I have given him all I could, especially the most stable childhood I possibly could, and he got the best his dad was capable of giving him, under the circumstances. The divorce wasn't TOO traumatic for him, as it lived itself out, though my son's words, in response to to this secret we'd been keeping - pending divorce - two weeks before separation and this new life, are still bitterly and painfully ETCHED on my heart, like it was yesterday. I really feel like I did all I could to give him the best I could. (Though he resents/regrets the years I took care of my Mom, which was crazy for him, a difficult lot for him to share). Maybe I could have given him more direction, but my mom had over-directed me, and I didn't want to do that to him. (He seems to have directed himself pretty well though).

    But when I examine the relationship types in his life, which was the purpose of this thread, to help me examine them, I just long, long, long for him to experience his Dual, for life! I have prayed about this, for a long time. But maybe not enough? He has done plenty of dating; I always recognize it as the "wrong type". I am well-aware my relationship is not going to be ideal with his dual, but it's all about what he needs.

    He recently broke up with a nice girl he'd been seeing (didn't sound like his dual to me) because he is not "ready" for a relationship; wants to get his life established before he takes a relationship seriously. Makes sense, because since most of covid he has been out of work, and he is ambitious, wants to be independent, so that can't be easy. He is taking kick boxing classes and working out, doing some independent work in his field online but there is not a lot out there in these times. So poor guy has a Delta Mom (and my husband another Delta) and an Alpha Dad and "step-mom" Gamma... At least in his gap year he went to live across the country, near my one of my very brother's very-Beta family, whom he spent some time with, so he got to experience life that way!

    Once, I realized that our good friend's (here in town) daughter, off at college far away, is my sons age, and was IEI! My friend and I conspired to encourage a paring with a planned game night when she was visiting on holiday from college, and also my son was visiting here for holiday. It was very tricky to hide any hint that this was an effort to get them together! So, 3 "couples" including them, and they really were excellent and harmonious teamwork on Pictionary. I loved her positive, intelligent and pretty "chuckle" sounds here and there at things my son said or did, and my son's quiet, calm but short reassuring comments at times I would have not thought of commenting. There seemed a synchronicity there in that brief window of time.

    But timing was bad, as she had just broken up with a longtime boyfriend here in town, and the drama of that not quite over, and we only managed to pull-off that one get-together, with everyone's holiday busyness. Oh! And he invited her to Starbucks, and they were going to go, and then this family emergency came up, with a dysfunctional faction of our family, and it had to be canceled because my son was needed to rescue this emergency. Now lovely IEI is back working her first post-college professional job, far away, near her old college, near other close family, dating someone seriously for some time now, who is more true and faithful than her other relationship... So drat on all that timing and distance making it just not work. Such a close call!

    So you are reinforcing for me that I need to pray more. I pray much anyway, for this whole generation of young people, who face very different times than we did at their age*. The end of this difficult passage of time will be glorious, but getting there will be first horrible, and then difficult even for those who do make it through these times. And not everyone will make it. I wrote about that elsewhere here. Socionics say a Dual is the best thing to have with us in hard times. I would like my son to have a dual to love as he navigates it. Waiting to be successful, first, as he desires, may not be possible in these times. People need partners through strife and difficulty, too!

    But wanting a Dual for him, as I hope also for you, Adam, is not selfish, because truly your Dual needs us as much as we need them.

    So as to my husband/son being SLI/SLE - I want to understand your knowledge of this more. They are contrary, like what his dad and girlfriend are. I would like my son to live here if times get tough, particularly if they get tough suddenly and soon, rather than his Dad's, because I think we need him more. We haven't had this talk yet, but I will soon. (I think my husband and I are rather lame when it comes to self-defense.)

    But I want to understand better how I need to adjust to make it easier for my son to live with me, as well as how it can be easier for my son to live with my husband. They are contraries. I have not spent much of any time in with my contrary relation (his Dual!). But I have noticed the aimlessness and everywhere-ness of their belief systems that just seems weird to me at times and I find it hard to relate to that or find a point for conversation. (Sorry, Aylen!).

    My concern is when my son visits, SLI talks too much, I mean, he goes off on one long Te topic or another, like a rapids series of professor's lectures. After one topic, if we are both silent, he takes that as an opening for his at-length views on yet another topic. Really, he only gets that way when my son is here! As long as I remind my husband, it doesn't get too bad - except I look for a private moment to tell him he is doing it again. Then he will make an effort to hold it back. But because my son is the younger, I feel he is forced/trapped into being a polite listener, when he may not want to be! [Last visit I realized he may have felt that way towards me with some of the things I was sharing with him, so I need to be more careful, too, in my own respects!]

    Sometimes my son comes to specifically help my husband with construction projects around here, as sometimes my husband needs his youthful capable strength. Sometimes I worry that my husbands ways might be too commanding and not respecting enough of my son's intelligent thought on matters. The differing expressions of Te vs. Ti being at odds. Sometimes when Te-explaining my husband repeats himself or goes on way to much. I think the repeating-himself might originate from living too long with SEE daughter, who doesn't seem to mind that, like I do. But my son is generally an excellent listener; he has superior auditory processing, IMO, so sometimes, if I am near when my husband is talking to him and I hear that repeating-thing happening, I will interject, "____ is a good listener! You don't have to repeat yourself!" Just because my son is not explaining himself and thoughts at length doesn't mean he doesn't deeply understand; he may understand even more than my husband, about some things at least. (My husband has the construction knowledge and experience, but my son is a quick learner and can grasp a situation well.).

    Well any suggestions I would appreciate!

    __________________________________________________ ___________
    [Some thoughts related to the above "*" that you may not be in agreement with, Adam, but I share them anyway]:

    *though I take umbrage at blaming it on the boomers, the generation I sit at the tail end of. It is only our fault in as much as we, in our youth, rolled out the free-love, immorality lifestyle, but this generation has grabbed that baton and run with it for dear life, resulting in devastation for the innocents of the (surviving) newest generation -- so much so that God must act drastically to ultimately save as many of us as is possible - beginning with our current reckoning, as gentle callings have gone unheeded. I have seen our forum leader, among others, condemn the boomer generation, as if it is the whole problem of today, and I think, wow, the next generation is going to truly lambaste this one, saying, look at your immorality. It brought us so much loss, the loss of our society and any greatness we had left: you tore it down, leaving us none of the goods you enjoyed for yourselves...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  6. #6
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @Adam Strange, I think I am going to plan a serious Novena for my son and also for you to find your Dual partners. I will let you know when I figure out which one to pray, and when I start it. My son doesn't know what to look for, but you sure do. My advice to you is to be quite sure you are looking at your potential dual partners with great confidence that they really, really need you, and will be blessed with a better life because you are in it, and not on your need and what you will get the same from them, even though, obviously, it will be the same great good for you! Also, you will bless your dual, in that they are enabled to be a good partner to you, rather effortlessly, just by being their normal everyday selves! How frustrating it is to endeavor to very hard to do your very best to be a good partner to a person, and all your efforts seem for naught, as they are so often not the right efforts when its a wrong-typed relationship.

    In the case of a sudden emergency and a potential ESI partner you know needs protection, perhaps you can offer what protection you have as a friend-only, and dual proximity can do it's magic in its time...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Adam Strange, I think I am going to plan a serious Novena for my son and also for you to find your Dual partners. I will let you know when I figure out which one to pray, and when I start it. My son doesn't know what to look for, but you sure do. My advice to you is to be quite sure you are looking at your potential dual partners with great confidence that they really, really need you, and will be blessed with a better life because you are in it, and not on your need and what you will get the same from them, even though, obviously, it will be the same great good for you! Also, you will bless your dual, in that they are enabled to be a good partner to you, rather effortlessly, just by being their normal everyday selves! How frustrating it is to endeavor to very hard to do your very best to be a good partner to a person, and all your efforts seem for naught, as they are so often not the right efforts when its a wrong-typed relationship.

    In the case of a sudden emergency and a potential ESI partner you know needs protection, perhaps you can offer what protection you have as a friend-only, and dual proximity can do it's magic in its time...
    Thanks, Eliza. Wise words.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ...

    It's a shame that your son and your husband are SLE and SLI. I've seen these two types get along as long as they didn't have to work together in any way. When they did have to work together, with the SLE working for the SLI, who didn't entirely respect the SLE's talents, the SLE did all he could to get fired. Then when that failed, the SLE quit.

    Your son really, really, really needs an IEI friend who can show him that life has a good side.
    Another thought on this (and no rush for you to respond, this is a really important topic for me, so I am on it right away). (And I am not asking you to respond to ALL these thoughts, just anything that strikes you).

    So I read this part of your response to my husband, explaining that you are good with types and at noticing dynamics of intertype relations, and, explaining I am in-experienced in a Contrary relationship myself, but you apparently have seen this as a possibility in his Contrary relationship with my son. And SLE son comes here often to assist my husband on the construction things, as I said earlier. My husband once again said, as he has before, how very much he enjoys my son and loves having him here, and I said, "But you have to be careful because it is an unequal relationship, and that we are his "elders" and it's our house and he only comes for visits and wants them to be positive and doesn't feel as free as we do to say what he wants, and you have to be careful because if he is getting annoyed or boiling inside he is not going to say so."

    I would like to somehow communicate to my son that our normal way of socializing/interacting is not his ideal/normal way of socializing/interacting, and if he gets overly bored or miffed I would like to say so so I can learn to adjust to make him moe at home with us.

    I wonder what would be harder for him, since as a young adult he is stuck right now because of covid having to live with other parent-ish adults (I really try not to be overly directive, and to respect his ways) even though he would not choose it - a beta living in a house Alpha and Gamma, or a Beta living in a Delta home? Oh dear, I am afraid you will say the latter is harder! But the Alpha/Gamma is with a Narcissist Dad who is home now so he is more likely exposed to the dysfunctions of that more now, and the Gamma is his supervisor, so you have to count that. And these Deltas are going to try real hard to play Beta...

    (Also if his coming here to live is due to crisis, and ESI's two adult children flee home for shelter - both have city job- with one adult child married, that full-house is not going to be that comfortable for ESI, and my Supervisee son would be the one she would be least comfortable having there, as her own children would come first, and the son-in-law comes with the daughter... these are things hopefully I can discuss with SLE son when he comes soon.. I sort of dread taht discussion as he may not be thinking of possible crisis, and of our world changing drastically and suddenly, like I am). (If any SLEs are reading this I hope they will suggest how I can broach the topic! Or IEI Duals could help me.)

    So then my husband reminded me of the most interesting thing that happened with my son, that I forgot., i think because it was a major change time of my life; I had just married and moved here and my Mom was needy and my son was away for a whole year, longest I hadn't seen him, after graduating high school. So I completely forgot what myhusband just reminded me of. He said my Beta brother whose state/city my son was doing his gap year at, said my son was there visiting their hospitable home (four cousins about his age) and was really talking up a storm! I read that text in amazement to my husband, who at the time just what I was thinking, "Maybe your brother is confused and has someone else there." Because this is not like him. But now I realize, it must have been a huge relief to be talking to people who "get" him. Even his girlfriend there, whom he was quite close and devoted to, would not offer that, as an Alpha LII. Clearly she was that type, and after the year they decided to amicably break up rather than try to keep it together when starting universities on different sides of the country).

    It also reminds me of a surprising incident long ago with my son. My now-husband had been to where we lived in the city/state we lived in during my son's last year of high school a couple of times. I was happy, in love, and thought my son must think it was GREAT that I had someone in my future life SLI who I got along with SO WELL and would always make me happy. No stresses. I said something along those lines and my son gave a surprising, snappish annoyed reply. I will never forget my surprise. Could he be jealous? Not of me! It didn't seem possible, yet there seemed to be a bit of that green bit lurking underneath, causing the snap. It bewildered me. there was something there I didn't understand, but didn't feel I could pry into further. (Maybe an IEI could have advised me how!)

    Now it occurs to me the jealously-core probably wasn't aimed at my SLI, but the ease of relating we had. It must be tiresome to see Duals delighting in getting along so well when you have never had duality interaction in your life. I remember feeling a little sad and frustrated seeing Dual married couples and realizing that they seemed to have NEVER experienced the kind of stress that was my daily lot in marriage, and that I had never reached the peace and harmony they took for granted to live in daily. Of course it wasn't too bad, because for almost all those years I dwelt in the optimistic hope that someday we would get there (only at the end did I resign myself to the idea that that great peace might be only contained in a fleeting moment on his dying day).

    Yes, so he had that time in their Beta world, when he would visit with them, and he has some great memories of that, the good side of life in the Beta Quadra....

    So, if my son would choose/agree to come live here (until he gets work as I know independence is what he seeks), because we need him to because of crisis, or, if he chooses because it is getting old imposing on an ESi who is not his mom (there are plenty of spaces here for him to have his own space), the task for me and my husband and I would be learning how to be more Beta-like and/or less Delta-ish in order for him to feel more at home. Hmm. Read about Quadra values? Read how his Dual is for him? Also maybe helping my son see some of the differences and encouraging him to tell us when we are taxing him... Oh, I know, this site as articles on SuperEgo and Contrary relationships, and my husband and I should study those parts that tell what you should do to get along better with those partners.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  9. #9
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Hi, Eliza.
    I’m sorry for the late reply. Sometimes I get busy and it takes me a long time to find a breathing space.


    I wouldn’t try too hard to get your SLE son to move in with you and your SLI husband, if I were you. Contrary is a very poor intertype relationship. And the more of it you get, the worse it gets.

    I have a Contrary sister whom I love, but we’ve never had a conversation longer that ten minutes. We’re just coming from entirely different points of view. We share almost no values and our approach to doing absolutely everything is 180 degrees apart.

    I work with a guy who is my Contrary, and when we’re just talking about nothing, everything is fine. I really enjoy listening to his viewpoints. But when we try to agree on what work has to be done, how it should be done, when it should be done, and what parts are important, we both get extremely frustrated with each other. As in, I want to push him off a dock and never see him again. I am doing my best to work with him, but it isn't easy. The odds of misunderstanding every little thing are almost 100%. EVERY little thing.

    As I previously mentioned somewhere, I watched as an SLE and an SLI tried to work together. They started off fine, and within a few months, the SLI was complaining about the SLI’s moral and habits. When I pointed out how much the SLE helps, the SLI relented and admitted that he couldn't have done the job without him. However, they worked together for another week, and then the SLE quit, basically because he couldn’t stand taking directions from the SLI.

    I also know of a contrary married couple. They fight. They fight in public, and it's not nice. I don’t think they even like each other any more, but they stay together, him for the prestige of having a beautiful wife, and her for the money he has. I listened to her at dinner once tell her husband if he tried to divorce her, she’d take him for every cent he’s got. As far as I know, they only see each other on the weekends, but even two days out of seven have brought them to this unhappy point.

    So, you can see that Contrary relationships are best enjoyed infrequently and at a great distance.


    As for why your SLI husband is talking without letup when your SLE son is in the room, I think he’s doing it to defend himself against your son’s Se. As long as he’s talking, he’s in control. But when he stops, your son’s Se seems to dominate the room, even without your son intending this to be the case. So your husband is just engaging in self-defense. To an SLI, letting themselves be open to attack is unthinkable.
    I really don't think that the two of them are going to like each other better on increased exposure, no matter how much you think your son would be an asset in a crisis. And he would, of course, but I don't expect a crisis at a level that you are describing, and insurance against it shouldn't be purchased at the cost of your son and husband hardening their views towards one another.
    I know that you said you would like to act more like a Beta. I think that's impossible. I chased an IEI for two years, and early on realized that she only liked me when I acted like an SLE. So I tried that. I tried and tried and even though I'm fairly close to being an SLE, in reality, I'm not an SLE. So I gave up. And I'm not a guy who gives up often.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Another thought on this (and no rush for you to respond, this is a really important topic for me, so I am on it right away). (And I am not asking you to respond to ALL these thoughts, just anything that strikes you).

    So I read this part of your response to my husband, explaining that you are good with types and at noticing dynamics of intertype relations, and, explaining I am in-experienced in a Contrary relationship myself, but you apparently have seen this as a possibility in his Contrary relationship with my son. And SLE son comes here often to assist my husband on the construction things, as I said earlier. My husband once again said, as he has before, how very much he enjoys my son and loves having him here, and I said, "But you have to be careful because it is an unequal relationship, and that we are his "elders" and it's our house and he only comes for visits and wants them to be positive and doesn't feel as free as we do to say what he wants, and you have to be careful because if he is getting annoyed or boiling inside he is not going to say so."

    I would like to somehow communicate to my son that our normal way of socializing/interacting is not his ideal/normal way of socializing/interacting, and if he gets overly bored or miffed I would like to say so so I can learn to adjust to make him more at home with us.
    I'd recommend just telling him what you think. SLE's are superb realists and, while it's possible to hurt their feelings, anyone with Fi like yourself is probably not going to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I wonder what would be harder for him, since as a young adult he is stuck right now because of covid having to live with other parent-ish adults (I really try not to be overly directive, and to respect his ways) even though he would not choose it - a beta living in a house Alpha and Gamma, or a Beta living in a Delta home? Oh dear, I am afraid you will say the latter is harder! But the Alpha/Gamma is with a Narcissist Dad who is home now so he is more likely exposed to the dysfunctions of that more now, and the Gamma is his supervisor, so you have to count that. And these Deltas are going to try real hard to play Beta...
    Please see my above writings on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    (Also if his coming here to live is due to crisis, and ESI's two adult children flee home for shelter - both have city job- with one adult child married, that full-house is not going to be that comfortable for ESI, and my Supervisee son would be the one she would be least comfortable having there, as her own children would come first, and the son-in-law comes with the daughter... these are things hopefully I can discuss with SLE son when he comes soon.. I sort of dread that discussion as he may not be thinking of possible crisis, and of our world changing drastically and suddenly, like I am). (If any SLEs are reading this I hope they will suggest how I can broach the topic! Or IEI Duals could help me.)

    So then my husband reminded me of the most interesting thing that happened with my son, that I forgot., i think because it was a major change time of my life; I had just married and moved here and my Mom was needy and my son was away for a whole year, longest I hadn't seen him, after graduating high school. So I completely forgot what myhusband just reminded me of. He said my Beta brother whose state/city my son was doing his gap year at, said my son was there visiting their hospitable home (four cousins about his age) and was really talking up a storm! I read that text in amazement to my husband, who at the time just what I was thinking, "Maybe your brother is confused and has someone else there." Because this is not like him. But now I realize, it must have been a huge relief to be talking to people who "get" him. Even his girlfriend there, whom he was quite close and devoted to, would not offer that, as an Alpha LII. Clearly she was that type, and after the year they decided to amicably break up rather than try to keep it together when starting universities on different sides of the country).
    It probably WAS a huge relief to be with people who share his values. My parental family was Delta, and we had a set of cousins who were Beta and a set of cousins who were Alpha. Living with my Delta parents wasn't great, but it wasn't horrible. Same with my Beta cousins. But I sometimes found myself stuck with my Alpha cousins, and it was really, really hard. They had good intentions and were kind and polite and still were basically space aliens. I remember being so inhibited around them. I never knew what to expect from them. I had no idea what to talk about and everything they were interested in bored me and everything they did was just strange as hell. I didn't like being with them because I felt I had to censor myself all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    It also reminds me of a surprising incident long ago with my son. My now-husband had been to where we lived in the city/state we lived in during my son's last year of high school a couple of times. I was happy, in love, and thought my son must think it was GREAT that I had someone in my future life SLI who I got along with SO WELL and would always make me happy. No stresses. I said something along those lines and my son gave a surprising, snappish annoyed reply. I will never forget my surprise. Could he be jealous? Not of me! It didn't seem possible, yet there seemed to be a bit of that green bit lurking underneath, causing the snap. It bewildered me. there was something there I didn't understand, but didn't feel I could pry into further. (Maybe an IEI could have advised me how!)

    Now it occurs to me the jealously-core probably wasn't aimed at my SLI, but the ease of relating we had. It must be tiresome to see Duals delighting in getting along so well when you have never had duality interaction in your life. I remember feeling a little sad and frustrated seeing Dual married couples and realizing that they seemed to have NEVER experienced the kind of stress that was my daily lot in marriage, and that I had never reached the peace and harmony they took for granted to live in daily. Of course it wasn't too bad, because for almost all those years I dwelt in the optimistic hope that someday we would get there (only at the end did I resign myself to the idea that that great peace might be only contained in a fleeting moment on his dying day).

    Yes, so he had that time in their Beta world, when he would visit with them, and he has some great memories of that, the good side of life in the Beta Quadra....

    So, if my son would choose/agree to come live here (until he gets work as I know independence is what he seeks), because we need him to because of crisis, or, if he chooses because it is getting old imposing on an ESi who is not his mom (there are plenty of spaces here for him to have his own space), the task for me and my husband and I would be learning how to be more Beta-like and/or less Delta-ish in order for him to feel more at home. Hmm. Read about Quadra values? Read how his Dual is for him? Also maybe helping my son see some of the differences and encouraging him to tell us when we are taxing him... Oh, I know, this site as articles on SuperEgo and Contrary relationships, and my husband and I should study those parts that tell what you should do to get along better with those partners.
    I think it's great of you to open your house to your son, in case he needs it. Many people don't understand how important it is to a person to have someone who is on their side and willing to lend a hand in times of difficulty. Your son probably won't take you up on that offer, because he's trying to establish himself in his own world on his own terms, but if you remind him from time to time that he will always have a place in your home if he ever needs it, that can make a positive difference in some difficult times.

    If you want to actively help him, I don't think that acting like Betas is a good idea. You can't really act like Betas in any way that he would find to be genuine. Instead, I'd encourage you to share with him the idea that he might actually get along well with a girl of a certain type. If he's like my SLI son, he's going to hear that and instantly reject it as an idea. Then, if you point out an IEI for him, either in the real world or in movies, he's still not going to believe you. Odds are good that even if he spends a little time with an IEI, he might not see her value right away. But after a few hours of conversation, he might come around to your way of thinking. Certainly, having him spend time with your Beta family is a good start. And if he finds an IEI and likes her, you can be assured that you did the very best for him and helped him to become everything that he can possibly be.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-10-2020 at 04:17 AM.

  10. #10
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Thank you so much, @Adam, for the time and thought you put into this. Your insights into Intertype relations is extremely helpful. I am digesting it.

    A question that comes to mind is, are you saying that Alpha's's and Gamma's are most likely to feel uncomfortable in each other's worlds? And so are Betas and Deltas most likely to feel most uncomfortable in each other's worlds?

    Its interesting what you said about not knowing what to talk about and feeling like you have to censor yourself all the time. I do censor myself around my son particularly because of Socionics knowledge. And I truly do sometimes do not know what to talk about. I feel like he must feel the same way sometimes. Okay so we don't have the best Socionics relations, but some people have to be married to these messes, and with effort and caring, they manage!

    Do you think based on all the types here, that his Alpha (narcissist) Dad and his Gamma (supervisor) sharing a house might be more comfortable fit for him than sharing a house with a couple of Delta duals? I was hoping not, but I want to face the truth of it.

    Yes, I do have my mind on a big crisis which is not a comfortable thing to think about it, but I want to be practical and think through possibilities. I guess I will be explaining that I hope he can come here, instead of there, if/when it comes to that (I think that's a "when"). He has never made a home here, so he does not have people he knows in this area, whereas he knows some there. So that is another reason he may not be motivated to come here without good reason.

    Thanks for telling me that acting like a Beta won't help much. It would be hard not to be myself anyway. I read on Superego relations, "Be flexible and ready to change directions". I can do that, and have, really, so I will just remind myself. Thanks for sharing your experience with trying to educate your son on duality. I think my son is also disinterested as I have told him about it before and he has not sought more knowledge. So prayer is going to be my tool.

    Your family/cousins experience was interesting. My family was 4 Deltas (my Dad, me, and two of my brothers), my Mom Gamma ESI, and one of my brothers Beta. He lagged 4 years behind us (the rest of us were about 18 mos. apart). Maybe it wasn't easy position to be in, so God blessed him with a Dual to make up for it!

    Can you give an example of what a "Se presence" would be like? I can't think of a single thing, and want to understand it.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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