Healthy vs Unhealthy Se - How to Recognise?
Unfortunately I've spent most of my life in abusive situations, and unfortunately it seems most of it has come from Gammas and Betas.
// LONG READ: BACKGROUND DETAILS //
Starting with an abusive (narcissistic) father (LIE) and enabling mother (ESI), but later including horribly abusive uncles (SLE and LSI) who I was forced to live with for 7 months, and a toxic grandmother (EIE) who enabled and supported them against me.
14 years ago my first romantic relationship (2.5 years) was with someone who turned out later to be IEI (our problems suddenly made sense when I started learning Socionics around that time). He was distant and neglectful and later admitted that he had been routinely cheating on me.
Shortly after that, I had an abusive (narcissistic) boss at work (SEE) for 5 years. Her boss (ILI) would do nothing but support her and ignore any issues I raised about the SEE's abusive conduct.
Then in 2017 my life was almost completely destroyed by an abusive (again, narcissistic) lecturer (LIE) at the college where I was studying post-grad, along with his enabling subordinate lecturers (both ESI), and faculty (mostly Gammas) who were all happy to throw me under the bus and defend him despite clear evidence of his many abuses against me.
I was also bullied at school for many years as a kid by a very toxic in-crowd that seemed (in retrospect) to consist of a lot of Betas and Gammas.
As an empath and highly sensitive person (EII), I seem to attract these types of abusive people into my life. Somehow they perceive my kindness and gentleness as weakness to be preyed upon.
// END BACKGROUND DETAILS //
As a result of all of this, I'm very messed up.
My experience with Betas and Gammas has been mostly terrible.
So I am wondering.... what does HEALTHY Se look like?
Or is this type of sh*tty behaviour just normal for Se-valuers?
Do you guys see Alphas and Deltas as naturally weak and therefore deserving of exploitation and bullying?
Or have I just had really bad luck?
@Hawkeye Can you be more specific on what the abusive and toxic behaviors were that you experienced? The only ones you mentioned so far are your IEI ex cheating on you, and some other people being enablers, which are actually relatively low Se activities.
They say if it smells like shit everywhere you go, maybe start by looking under your own shoe as well...
Where were the non-Se valuers in your life? Did they just sit back and watch you be abused? Is that not bad and enabling too? Or have you just never met a single non-Se valuer in your life (almost impossible)? In that case how would you be able to know the difference?
If you perceive basically everybody around you as having been abusive towards you, the problem is coming from your expectations about people. Perhaps some of your early childhood experiences were traumatizing enough to do that, but you should still try to overcome being stuck in some mindset because of them. It doesn’t seem healthy. You’re effectively pre-emptively making enemies for yourself everywhere you go.
Originally Posted by sbbds
It's a long read tho, but here goes:
Narcissistic abuse including gaslighting (blaming me for things that are not even my fault), constant manipulation, corporal punishment for very slight issues (even though I was the most well-behaved of any other kid I knew), emotional neglect, never allowed to disagree with him on anything for fear of sparking narc rage episode, cursing and insulting me regularly, telling me regularly how pathetic and useless and disappointing I am, nothing I did was ever good enough (despite being an over-achiever at school). He never came to any of my events or awards ceremonies.
At 18 he told me to pack my bags and piss off out of his house.
Too terrified of father to stand up to him and support me, otherwise she would deal with fallout for days.
SLE and LSI Uncles
Frequently verbally abusive and reacted immediately with rage to any kind of disagreement I had with them.
Forced me to pay more than half the rent of the expensive apartment we were living in together, even though I was a poor / struggling student and they were both working full time and earning tons of money.
They would also play pranks on me constantly to the point where it became oppressive and I couldn't even get to sleep at night for fear of waking up covered in shaving cream or some other stupid thing.
They also thought it was funny to keep me awake at night by constantly calling me, banging doors, turning the lights on and off, playing loud music or Tv etc. and basically refusing to let me sleep even though I had to get up at 6am.
This happened routinely to the point where I had to move out and go stay with some friends.
Abused my ESI mother for years, kicked her out of the house at 14. Wouldn't even tell my mother who her real father was.
Constantly defends my uncles as if they are just having harmless fun and I am overreacting.
Constantly scheming to get money out of my parents, sometimes using me as a pawn to that end, and constantly creating unnecessary emotional drama in the family by playing people against each other to get what she wants from them.
Cheating, emotional and physical neglect. Would often leave me alone at home while he went out clubbing (including strip clubs) and partying. Would spend more time sleeping over at "friends'" places instead of at home with me.
Let me pay his massive overdue power bill using all of my savings (they were about to cut off his power at Christmas). As a result, I was broke for several months after that, and when we were out with his friends I was unable to pay for drinks, food etc. The friends then treated me like some kind of pathetic homeless person, but he never defended me or told them the real reason I was broke. He was happy to save his own reputation at my expense.
Narcissitic abuse, including playing people against each other to create chaos and tension in the office which she then could control and manipulate to her advantage (constantly spreading lies about what people were allegedly saying about others behind their backs).
In front of her superiors, taking credit for all of our accomplishments, while never taking any responsibility when something went wrong (she always shifted blame to us).
Offloading 99% of her work onto all of us while she sat and relaxed in the office all day, staring out of the window (my workload gradually doubled in the 5 years since she started).
Meetings were all about giving herself a soap box where she could remind us in various ways how awesome she was and how useless and pathetic we all were, and constantly threatening to fire or collectively punish us if there were any complaints to her superiors or bad reviews in the employee feedback surveys.
ILI General Manager
Allowed the SEE boss to continue treating us like crap, and ignored (sometimes laughed) when we tried to bring it up with him.
LIE Lecturer and Co
Lecturer hated me from Day 1 because I came from an industry and job position that he himself had held. So he had this weird ego reaction where he needed to "put me in my place" and make sure everybody knew HE was the top guy, and I was nothing.
He would constantly give job opportunities to other students and somehow forget to include me in the mailing list (despite being a top student, and despite that he had used my email address several times before).
In my final 3-month project he was constantly interfering with the project team, inserting and removing team members, until it was only me left to complete a job designed for 4 ppl, and the project only ended up 60% complete as a result, for which he then blamed me for poor project management.
He also openly stated in front of the class that the project was low-level trash that looked like it was just copied-pasted from the Internet (it was not, and everybody had seen me working my ass off on this thing from Day 1).
He said if he was an employer, he would not touch me with a 10-foot barge pole, and cannot believe I had been working in this industry for so many years already. Just pure nasty insults in front of the entire class. (Everyone sat there, shocked.)
He then failed me (despite being an A student up to that point, with a different lecturer), despite his admission that it was the biggest and most commercial-level project anyone has ever submitted in this course. The "official reasons" he came up with for failing me were bogus beyond belief, and everybody knew it.
The other 2 lecturers (ESI) who were part of the grading process were employed directly by him, so their jobs depended on agreeing with him. Nobody stood up for me. It was a total gang-rape.
To make it worse, I went to the college appeals committee (mostly Gamma from what I've seen) to get some justice, but they were all his long-time friends and coworkers and were happy to defend him and dismiss my complaints as baseless.
On top of that, I was an international student at immediate risk of being deported based on these results, and they all knew it. They tried to use this to force me to pay them more money to re-do the course, which I refused.
The typical school bullying. I was locked in lockers, pushed around, and relentlessly made fun of for all kinds of stupid things. As a kid, that sort of thing really messes you up over time.
idk, get mad, set boundaries, reinforce them if ppl push past? Try not to become a Karen tho, nobody likes Karens lol.
Se as far as I understand it is like volitional force. Ppl with Se get shit done, they like to compete and have an impact, they manifest willpower to achieve what they desire. I'm like this in crisis situations or when I want something or when there is something that needs to get done but ppl meander around the issue and annoy me, I'll just do it myself and drag everyone with me by simply being active and willful. Asking or being bossy doesn't happen tho. I might insult ppl if I think they deserve it for being weak & pathetic however, but that probably has more to do with my rational functions and judging process.
I would never cheat tho, I'd just try and talk with my gf about problems and fix them or if that can;t happen I'd break off the relationship and be upfront about things. Imo ppl who cheat are worse than weak, fuckem.
Last edited by shotgunfingers; 07-22-2020 at 11:36 AM.
Originally Posted by sbbds
As a kid I only had a few of these in my life (usually a few friends at school) but never for long.
We never stayed for long enough in 1 place for me to make long-term friends.
My parents also took me out of school halfway through high school and I homeschooled the rest, so I lost that support base of friends.
As a result, I now have Avoidant Personality Disorder where I don't let ppl get too close to me because it feels somehow "useless" (like it's going to end soon anyway, so why bother), or I am terrified of being mistreated again in some way.
As I said in a previous post, I am now working in a place where it's 100% Delta, and the difference has been SHOCKING. The level of peace and harmony in the workplace feels like I've been transported to another dimension.
No, admittedly there have been a few good people, notably 2 LIEs, one ESI and one LSI that I've worked with.
Originally Posted by sbbds
But they still had a bit of a "rough" approach to dealing with things that made me somewhat uncomfortable.
I also see a lot of their behaviour reflected in my parents' behaviour towards me, so that triggers me and makes me feel like I don't want to hang around such people for too long, because it feels like just a matter of time before their pushiness is directed towards me when something doesn't go their way.
In short, I feel like I've become "scared" of Se.
It's just way too triggering, based on everything I've been through.
And I'm just wondering if this is just bad luck on my part, or if this is generally what to expect from Se going forward.
Iíve noticed similar things you noticed, so itís not just you. Especially with LIEs and LSIs/SLEs. My (likely) ENTj grandfather couldnít create harmonious relations even with his majoritarily gamma family. He had 3 modes of functioning: work and make money, criticize his children, find moral fault in everyone. The only one he could fully walk all over was my ESI aunt, who was devoted to him with her heightened sense of loyalty. Before dying, my grandmother made it clear she didnít want to be buried anywhere near him. It sounds harsh and itís sad that many people in the family have an unsavory memory of him when he built the family (financially) from nothing.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
Male beta STs want you to respect them but many times it's all castles in the air what they do, so youíre bound to disagree. Of course, Iíve seen them explode with anger when pressed to delineate their thinking or shut up. Itís as if they donít want to be exposed. I just twist the knife and tell them I donít see why I should respect them since they canít think.
And, as you said, they can have a sadistic streak. Expose them to sadism of your own and they get offended. Ask them why for them itís allowed but not the other way around and watch then explode with anger because they canít put forward clear thinking to explain why. See the vicious circle?
I hope you get in the company of like-minded people and can finally live peacefully.
First of all I’m very sorry that you’ve had all these experiences. Your family is definitely super fucked up, and it can be hard to find better experiences and hard to get out of messed up situations like that.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
You said that your IEI ex was a guy. So are you a girl, or a gay male? If you are the latter, do you think that had anything to do with how you’ve been treated? If you’re the former then I’d be very surprised.
As for the bolded, where were you studying and where were you originally from?
Obviously the answer is no, not all Se people are abusive, but you aren’t going to be convinced by hearing that. The only thing that would change your mind is to eventually get closer to people who are “good” Se valuers. It sounds like you’ve found a good workplace now. How many people are there? The greater the number (like over 5), the less likely is is that they’re really ALL deltas. If it’s more than a small group then it’s highly likely that it’s a mix of people including Se valuers.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
Se people are basic tools of society. Yeah, they're tough, but so are orcs in fiction. They're just good for fighting and dying.
I don't think there's much healthy/unhealthy. It's just what it is, Se valuers might see it as the best thing ever, non-Se valuers might see it just like I described.
There are weak/strong functions what leads to fiting social norms or not. There are valued and nonvalued what may have similar influence. Nothing else.
The most significant Se you get from Se ego types. Their problem is not Se, but other functions which are weak or not valued.
You seem to have ran across a lot of shitty ppl in life. 3 things tho:
1) Not here to deflate your balloon, but these typings can be wrong.
2) Is it really productive to blame Se types for all this misfortune?
3) Will this victim mentality be helpful to you in the long run?
Idk maybe its just me, but the best revenge imo is to live well despite all that crap, on your own terms.
Last edited by shotgunfingers; 07-22-2020 at 04:56 PM.
Isn't it kinda obvious?
Healthy Se is idk, (consensually of course, even though the word 'consensual' sounds like a STD in and of itself to me) stroking somebody's ass the way they like it. In a way that's not politically correct or too boring and just hot.
Unhealthy Se is actually molesting or raping somebody to see how it feels just because you have some weird temporary Ni fantasy to do so? Like a SLE male doing something stupid and then the police sirens coming lol. Or not controlling your own impulses. You felt like punching somebody and so you did, whereas it would be more wise to just manipulate them from a distance and play the 'I'm a better person than you are' game with them.
Healthy Se = hot gay sex.
Unhealthy Se = going full dahmer!
Female SLE... unhealthy Se can maybe more like being too bullying and High School Mean Girl-like or something. Which is kinda similiar to EIEs but a bit different.
OP, I was bullied a lot too. I think a lot of what you think of as bullying is NTR but here is how I personally came out of that:
1. I just lived my life. I tried doing some new things even though I didn't completely want to.
2. I didn't tell people everything about me. Boundaries are your best friend. If somebody wants to know something personal or private about you they usually just want to use it against you for their own career or something. Don't fall for the 'just tell me, I really care!' manipulation. The more I did this the stronger I became... and the more I was ready to tell people I was closer with the real truths about my own heart and internal world. Knowing what you can tell and who is a life strategy that prevents a lot of bullying. As much as you want to care and share, just be wise to understand as soon as you express a real vulnerability with anybody you are giving them ammo to hurt you by the very nature of the beast. It's not that they are bad and you are good (even though sometimes that will be the case lol) - it's just sorta how reality is.
3. I wasn't bullied so much because I was too gentle and kind, but because I wasn't brave enough TO BE these things myself in the first place. So before you play innocent, are you for sure this wasn't also the case with you? Do you outwardly show your niceness as much as you possibly can or do you just have this ego of 'I'm a good and gentle person?' The former is good but the latter causes problems with others IME. "Being gentle and nice" isn't some passive victim-y thing in the prison of your own head, it's a real warmth other people need to see!
4. Even if I was 'bullied' I probably didn't care, because I was just happy living my life.
5. And flat out, I was just around nicer and better and higher society people really. It wasn't just 'all on me.' Being in a toxic envrionment sucks but we do have a choice how often we stay there for. Avoiding toxic things all together doesn't work because then you just get bullied by everything anyway, but you have more control of how long people stay in your head more than you think.
People who aren't bullied... are brave enough to love, and strong enough to say 'no.' Both bullies and victims are two sides of the same coin that are trapped in an unhealthy cycle.
@ OP ^ FWIW I was bullied a lot too by people around me (and family) and can attest to the above ...