LSE Males and Cheating

[Hawkeye]

I've known a lot of LSE guys in my life so far, from coworkers to personal friends, and some I've been in romantic relationships with (I'm gay, EII).



I've found 99% of these to be great guys in almost every aspect. There is just one small issue.... virtually all of these guys have been cheaters!!! (On their girlfriends / wives / boyfriends / me.)



Some were trying to keep it secret. Others practically bragged about it. They all seemed to have the ability to rationalise (in their own minds) why it was somehow ok, as long as their partners didn't find out and thus didn't get hurt.




By contrast, the LSE females I've been close friends with have been hardcore monogamists, with no apparent inclination to extramural activities.




This makes me feel very hopeless and weary about dating my duals again in future. Maybe I am just better off keeping LSE's as friends and coworkers, and staying far away from them romantically?



So I'm genuinely looking for answers on a few things:


QUESTION 1.
What is the actual proportion of LSE men out there (regardless of orientation) that are inclined to cheat, or remain faithful?

QUESTION 2.
Is this really a Socionic issue or more of a cultural issue? A symptom of our times, perhaps?

QUESTION 3.
Are all extraverted socionic types more inclined to cheat, since they all seemingly share a preference for "breadth of experience" rather than "depth of experience" (correct me if I'm wrong on that, but extraverts all seem to have an insatiable craving for novelty, coupled with the energy to actually pursue it).

QUESTION 4.
If that's the case, would I have better luck dating other EIIs, or possibly a SLI?




I genuinely need advice on this because I'm at a bit of a crossroads, very jaded with LSE guys, and trying to figure out if I should actually just stay single forever.

[Beautiful sky]

This maybe cultural. Are you open to date men of other cultures? Also in some cultures estj men are whores so you are not entirely wrong. I feel for you

[SGF]

This maybe cultural. Are you open to date men of other cultures? Also in some cultures estj men are whores so you are not entirely wrong. I feel for you

/o\ wtf am I reading lol. I thought LSE would be ESTJ upright proper pillar of society man... <_< tho it maybe makes sense considering delta quadra's description of being kinda hippy-ish.

[Beautiful sky]

/o\ wtf am I reading lol. I thought LSE would be ESTJ upright proper pillar of society man... <_< tho it maybe makes sense considering delta quadra's description of being kinda hippy-ish.

No they are not. They can definitely use Te to justify their actions and get carried away with sexual situations. Doesn't mean they won't feel guilty after. Type doesn't mean one won't cheat. Not type related

[Smilex]

Hm. ESTjs.
First of all, the whole the life of the ESTj starts with a set of limitations that are accepted and planned on. Relationships are only an accepted limitation, a duty of sorts. They offer nothing as such, are utterly without value.
Si is related to the quality of being able to achieve things despite these limitations. LSE are always about finding workarounds in practical life.

If the ESTj is capable of acting like an ENTj every now and then, they may be able to understand the long term benefits of relations and accept the negatives with the positives.

If the ESTj is full Si, the whole concept of relationships is only relevant on the most immediate practical of terms. A relationship exists only if it is an immediate concern. A person who is not present in the immediate has already withdrawn from the relationship and hence is not relevant anyway.

As for the ESTj sexual thing... There's just more opportunity and market for ESTj males to be cheaters than ESTj females. Female ESTjs are not better people. They just have different opportunities and hence different solutions.

Delta overall is about decreasing valuation of relationships, decreasing Fi. This effect is highest at the Si-Ne point. Delta is about destroying relationships.

[Beautiful sky]

Delta is about destroying relationships.

Disagree

[Smilex]

Disagree

You would. INFjs enjoy relationships but without ISFj behaviour you're not building them, you're just running them out until nobody remembers you or cares about you. You're enjoying previously built capital. You don't want to destroy them the same way a kid doesn't want the ice cream to be destroyed when they munch through it enjoying every bit until there's nothing left.

[Beautiful sky]

You would. INFjs enjoy relationships but without ISFj behaviour you're not building them, you're just running them out until nobody remembers you or cares about you. You're enjoying previously built capital. You don't want to destroy them the same way a kid doesn't want the ice cream to be destroyed when they munch through it enjoying every bit until there's nothing left.

Bitter this morning?

I would say that Fi is all about connecting with others but maintaining relationships would require expansive energy. For instance, my lovely SEE neighbor wanted to go to Trader Joes on Saturday and I too wanted to go so we went together and now it's Monday. I would love to call her to do something but I am a sloth, here I am in bed and I don't even want to get up and cook. Someone bring me coffee so I can get my ass moving. I am still thinking fondly of her and I wish she would reach out and come to my space where I feel comfortable and safe and I don't have to move my ass, but I know she's walking her dog or doing something else. I still have fond FEELINGS for her and I have already formed a relationship with her...not destroying it. Same with my relationships from over 30 years ago.

Bitter much?

[Smilex]

Bitter this morning?

I would say that Fi is all about connecting with others but maintaining relationships would require expansive energy. For instance, my lovely SEE neighbor wanted to go to Trader Joes on Saturday and I too wanted to go so we went together and now it's Monday. I would love to call her to do something but I am a sloth, here I am in bed and I don't even want to get up and cook. Someone bring me coffee so I can get my ass moving. I am still thinking fondly of her and I wish she would reach out and come to my space where I feel comfortable and safe and I don't have to move my ass, but I know she's walking her dog or doing something else. I still have fond FEELINGS for her and I have already formed a relationship with her...not destroying it. Same with my relationships from over 30 years ago.

Bitter much?

You are depleting a thing she's building. She enjoys building, you're just enjoying her work.

[lkdhf qkb]

Hm. ESTjs.
First of all, the whole the life of the ESTj starts with a set of limitations that are accepted and planned on. Relationships are only an accepted limitation, a duty of sorts. They offer nothing as such, are utterly without value.
Si is related to the quality of being able to achieve things despite these limitations.

That sounds like the LIE way more than the LSE way. All LSEs I know have had a strong fear of ending alone and being disliked. Relationships don't bring value materially but they have a security value. I had a LSE tell me once "I would quit my job right away if I felt no one wanted to see me when I come to work every day". A bad relationship makes you feel uncomfortable, and LSEs are very sensible to that(Si). Si has nothing to do with a "quality of being able to achive things", unless you talk about one's health, strength and self-control.

[SGF]

That sounds like the LIE way more than the LSE way. All LSEs I know have had a strong fear of ending alone and being disliked. Relationships don't bring value materially but they have a security value. I had a LSE tell me once "I would quit my job right away if I felt no one wanted to see me when I come to work every day". A bad relationship makes you feel uncomfortable, and LSEs are very sensible to that(Si). Si has nothing to do with a "quality of being able to achive things", unless you talk about one's health, strength and self-control.

For once I agree.

By the looks of how Adam and Smilex suck each-other off in the chat I'd say whatever their type, its the same.

[Smilex]

That sounds like the LIE way more than the LSE way. All LSEs I know have had a strong fear of ending alone and being disliked. Relationships don't bring value materially but they have a security value. I had a LSE tell me once "I would quit my job right away if I felt no one wanted to see me when I come to work every day". A bad relationship makes you feel uncomfortable, and LSEs are very sensible to that(Si). Si has nothing to do with a "quality of being able to achive things", unless you talk about one's health, strength and self-control.

You're partially correct. THe mind state that you're describing exists. It is a natural reaction to doing everything you can do get rid of relationships. This is why the next step is to start developing Fe. The people you're describing are thinking of getting on the ESFj train.

And yes. A bad relationship (Te) is a horrible function that makes you feel bad. No wonder the people you know want to get rid of it. If they're thinking of quitting their job they hardly have any connection left to the Te aspect.

[lkdhf qkb]

QUESTION 1.
What is the actual proportion of LSE men out there (regardless of orientation) that are inclined to cheat, or remain faithful?

QUESTION 2.
Is this really a Socionic issue or more of a cultural issue? A symptom of our times, perhaps?

QUESTION 3.
Are all extraverted socionic types more inclined to cheat, since they all seemingly share a preference for "breadth of experience" rather than "depth of experience" (correct me if I'm wrong on that, but extraverts all seem to have an insatiable craving for novelty, coupled with the energy to actually pursue it).

QUESTION 4.
If that's the case, would I have better luck dating other EIIs, or possibly a SLI?

I don't think type can be directly tied to a tendency to cheat. Many things like culture, strength of libido and childhood experiences among others play into it, as @Beautiful sky mentioned.

I have to say though that LSEs all have 1D Fi and as such have trouble putting themselves into other people's shoes emotionally(and when they do, they often capture only irrelevant details of the emotional experience). Moreover, LSEs men are often crippled in Fi because Fi is seen as so "useless". LSE men are often only taught Fi only through experience; I know that EII-LSE long term couple where the LSE cheated while the EII was abroad for work; the EII girl was very firm, she threw him out of her flat, and soon found another boyfriend. The LSE was so jealous and hurt he came crawling back asking for forgiveness; now they are back together for a couple of years already and he's pretty much an exemplary husband. You have to make it very clear what consequence their action has on the relationship or they won't respect you. Come on, you're an EII, you're the only one that can make them toe the line!

From experience, the LSEs that liked me the most were the ones I was the most critical of. They need clear ethical judgements of their actions because they can't provide that for themselves.

It could be that you don't feel confortable yet with this role and prefer to date a feeler; there is nothing wrong with that, but you'll soon feel concurrence in ethical judgements.

[Beautiful sky]

SmileX is LSE and he’s wrong about Delta destroying relationships because I’m his dual and I’m right. I think that people who destroy relationships are out to understand them or even search for something that works for them, but personally speaking my relationships carry on for decades and don’t get destroyed that easily. Is this a Gamma influence? I don’t think it is even if I have close Gamma relationships due to Gamma dual parents . Overall I would say Gamma do like getting together more than Delta and Delta like living in pairs in a fortress lol

[Smilex]

SmileX is LSE and he’s wrong about Delta destroying relationships because I’m his dual and I’m right. I think that people who destroy relationships are out to understand them or even search for something that works for them, but personally speaking my relationships carry on for decades and don’t get destroyed that easily. Is this a Gamma influence? I don’t think it is even if I have close Gamma relationships due to Gamma dual parents . Overall I would say Gamma do like getting together more than Delta and Delta like living in pairs in a fortress lol

LMAO

[lkdhf qkb]

SmileX is LSE and he’s wrong about Delta destroying relationships because I’m his dual and I’m right.

Well, why are you on a forum on socionics to discuss stuff if you think being right all the time? Maybe you should write a book instead? Intellectual humillity should definitely be established as a new "delta" value.

But I agree with you actually, delta is not about destroying relationships. Only a LSE with shitty Fi would think that, maybe that's what @Smilex is, i don't know him. Delta is about the avoidance of bad relationships for SLI and LSE (they have Fi-) and the cultivation and maintenance of peaceful relationships towards abstract entities (ex: love for humanity, respect for nature) for IEE and EII(they have Fi+ & Ne-).

[Beautiful sky]

Well, why are you on a forum on socionics to discuss stuff if you think being right all the time? Maybe you should write a book instead? Intellectual humillity should definitely be established as a new "delta" value.

But I agree with you actually, delta is not about destroying relationships. Only a LSE with shitty Fi would think that, maybe that's what @Smilex is, i don't know him. Delta is about the avoidance of bad relationships for SLI and LSE (they have Fi-) and the cultivation and maintenance of peaceful relationships towards abstract entities (ex: love for humanity, respect for nature) for IEE and EII(they have Fi+ & Ne-).

I was defending him. But glad you pulled data to support what I was saying, which I get lazy about doing since I already know the answers from having already read that.Awesome sauce.

[Smilex]

Well, why are you on a forum on socionics to discuss stuff if you think being right all the time? Maybe you should write a book instead? Intellectual humillity should definitely be established as a new "delta" value.

But I agree with you actually, delta is not about destroying relationships. Only a LSE with shitty Fi would think that, maybe that's what @Smilex is, i don't know him. Delta is about the avoidance of bad relationships for SLI and LSE (they have Fi-) and the cultivation and maintenance of peaceful relationships towards abstract entities (ex: love for humanity, respect for nature) for IEE and EII(they have Fi+ & Ne-).

You don't get it but you're proving it. It's almost poetic.

[lkdhf qkb]

You don't get it but you're proving it. It's almost poetic.

I might have a clue of what you are talking about. Are you talking about "Te relationships", like in the previous post?(which basically amounts to Ti i guess?) Relationships of productive exchange of information and goods? I might relate to where your previous thought comes from.

Honestly your posturing as if you had any clue of what I "get" is pretty much manipulative. If you want to be understood, explain, don't complain like some spineless bitch. I checked your profile and I think you're LIE-Ni. I have no time for your "victim" strategies.

[Beautiful sky]

I might have a clue of what you are talking about. Are you talking about "Te relationships", like in the previous post?(which basically amounts to Ti i guess?) Relationships of productive exchange of information and goods? I might relate to where your previous thought comes from.

Honestly your posturing as if you had any clue of what I "get" is pretty much manipulative. If you want to be understood, explain, don't complain like some spineless bitch. I checked your profile and I think you're LIE-Ni. I have no time for your "victim" strategies.

Bad communication is activity related lol

[Smilex]

I might have a clue of what you are talking about. Are you talking about "Te relationships", like in the previous post?(which basically amounts to Ti i guess?) Relationships of productive exchange of information and goods? I might relate to where your previous thought comes from.

Honestly your posturing as if you had any clue of what I "get" is pretty much manipulative. If you want to be understood, explain, don't complain like some spineless bitch. I checked your profile and I think you're LIE-Ni. I have no time for your "victim" strategies.

That's the way to destroy relationships! Thank you for allowing me more proof in my victory.

[leckysupport]

I might have a clue of what you are talking about. Are you talking about "Te relationships", like in the previous post?(which basically amounts to Ti i guess?) Relationships of productive exchange of information and goods? I might relate to where your previous thought comes from.

Honestly your posturing as if you had any clue of what I "get" is pretty much manipulative. If you want to be understood, explain, don't complain like some spineless bitch. I checked your profile and I think you're LIE-Ni. I have no time for your "victim" strategies.

Whining like a spineless bitch is a pretty damn effective way of being understood, just as long as you reason it out after you've had a whine.

[Beautiful sky]

Tbf Gulenko has changed this and now LSE and ILI have Fi+, while LIE and SLI have Fi-. Heh.

Whispers -it’s all BS
I still win

I mean come on I love and hate humanity. I love them when they do good and hate them when they act like selfish greedy asses

[Smilex]

Ok. I've had my bit of fun. I think this is worth going more into detail because it's kinda important.
I'll give an equivalent example which might make it easier to understand for some people.
Instead of Fi and delta let's talk Ni and gamma.
Ni for the ENTj is the idea of opportunity. By seizing it, the ENTj defines it, makes it better, but also depletes it, turns it into something else. When the ENTj takes the idea of building a business and turns it into an actual business... the idea becomes calcified. The ENTj, once settled on their own business is less able to see or seize the benefit of new ones. They become ENTj- Te which is similar as a delta Fi-Ne becoming more and more Ne. Less and less able to create friendships and using the ones they've had for a long time more and more.
The memory continues. The ENTj continues to think they're a man of business acumen, after all they proved their acumen with getting the working idea. THey prove it by living it. They think they could still replicate what they once did, but the original experience is depleted. The ability to get new insights is no longer as good as it once was. The qualities that Ni once offered are implicitly seen in the Te, in the business, but the root of the matter, the power behind it.... no longer there. The ability to regenerate, to recreate, long gone.
The same happens to delta NFs and their relationships when they get more and more into the intuitive terrirory. Settle into it comfortably enough... It's done. You think it's still there. But is it? Can
you still rebuild it? Or are you just relying on the same old, until they've passed on.

Living a life is proper, but it's still the same as destroying a life. You spend it. Whatever you do, it's still gone. It's just various perspectives to the same thing. Each temperament with their own.

[Beautiful sky]

damn I just did some serious Fi there haha

That's the way to destroy relationships! Thank you for allowing me more proof in my victory.

I win.

[Smilex]

damn I just did some serious Fi there haha



I win.

Sorry. For you there's only eternal loss.

[Sol]

J types lesser cheat or break promises
mistypings are common. those "99%" is too high

[consentingadult]

This sorta reminds me of SLEs, maybe they're mistyped? LSEs are more monogamous based on their description

My thoughts exactly: "Grab them by the pussy!"

[valhalla]

Sounds like smilex is saying:

"basically you neglected "us" and "me" (via to much intuition after settling for the typical scope of our relationship) and I am using that as the reasoning I have moved on".

"I'm a sensor type, I see what and I see and out of sight is out of mind - you should have tried harder to keep "me"", like a ISFj might have.

Yeah ESTj cheat like a hot damn, but its not like a flirtatious bed hoping sort of way. Its more like secret rendezvous they can compartmentalize and then return home to what is familiar. Side chicks that double as side gf-wives.

[Beautiful sky]

Sounds like smilex is saying:

"basically you neglected "us" and "me" (via to much intuition after settling for the typical scope of our relationship) and I am using that as the reasoning I have moved on".

"I'm a sensor type, I see what and I see and out of sight is out of mind - you should have tried harder to keep "me"", like a ISFj might have.

Yeah ESTj cheat like a hot damn, but its not like a flirtatious bed hoping sort of way. Its more like secret rendezvous they can compartmentalize and then return home to what is familiar. Side chicks that double as side gf-wives.

It’s easy to find a justification if you feel like you don’t have to be responsible for other people’s feelings. That’s why I make categorical views -like a shitty person

[valhalla]

It’s easy to find a justification if you feel like you don’t have to be responsible for other people’s feelings. That’s why I make categorical views -like a shitty person

I wouldn't get yourself to worked up over him. He's trolling you somewhat.

Hes basically saying "you neglected "me" after you got "me"." This is actually a fatal flaw of Fi, after the boundaries of the relationship have been decided, the matrimony finalized...now what?

At least IEE and SLI keep it alive by introducing chaoticness into the equation. I think what happens for the rationals is a malaise that stems from over-attatchment.

Fi focused types are the type of people who will send you proverbial notes in class "Do you love me, yes or no?" "Yes? - let's get married now."

[Beautiful sky]

I wouldn't get yourself to worked up over him. He's trolling you somewhat.

Hes basically saying "you neglected "me" after you got "me"." This is actually a fatal flaw of Fi, after the boundaries of the relationship have been decided, the matrimony finalized...now what?

At least IEE and SLI keep it alive by introducing chaoticness into the equation. I think what happens for the rationals is a malaise that stems from over-attatchment.

Fi focused types are the type of people who will send you proverbial notes in class "Do you love me, yes or no?" "Yes? - let's get married now."

Oh you’re speaking about SmileX?!?
Well real neglect does happen in a relationship but if we’re speaking about cheating maybe it’s “I also didn’t try hard enough and took it as a ticket to do what I wan because I CAN “

I CAN
YOU CAN
WE CAN

[valhalla]

Oh you’re speaking about SmileX?!?
Well real neglect does happen in a relationship but if we’re speaking about cheating maybe it’s “I also didn’t try hard enough and took it as a ticket to do what I wan because I CAN “

I CAN
YOU CAN
WE CAN

,
I don't know man. People get horny.

For me its always been the hypocrisy of what it entails that would bother me. I have to live with myself and "I know what I did last summer."

[Adam Strange]

I wouldn't get yourself to worked up over him. He's trolling you somewhat.

Hes basically saying "you neglected "me" after you got "me"." This is actually a fatal flaw of Fi, after the boundaries of the relationship have been decided, the matrimony finalized...now what?

At least IEE and SLI keep it alive by introducing chaoticness into the equation. I think what happens for the rationals is a malaise that stems from over-attatchment.

Fi focused types are the type of people who will send you proverbial notes in class "Do you love me, yes or no?" "Yes? - let's get married now."

@valhalla, this is actually a very good point. I believe it is why, for the Gamma ESI-LIE pair, life is work. If you can work with your partner, then work is how you relate, after the signing of the contract.

[SGF]

@valhalla, this is actually a very good point. I believe it is why, for the Gamma ESI-LIE pair, life is work. If you can work with your partner, then work is how you relate, after the signing of the contract.

That sounds.. really unromantic.. I sincerely doubt any ESI would agree to that.

[Ave]

Derp, derp

No, you're wrong.

[Smilex]

Smilex is LIE as hell and I welcome him in gay gamma NT arms.

Oh, you.