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Thread: Truth and niceness

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    Peter, The Machine, The Rock fireee's Avatar
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    Default Truth and niceness

    Truth and harshness usually go hand in hand, almost as if they are tied together.

    There are times to be truthful and there are times to be politically correct.

    When you're walking your dog around the neighborhood and u run into a friend, or you meet up with the guys at a BBQ, or the girls have a tea party session... of course, you want to be friendly, politically correct, not some crazy neo-Nazi.

    But of course,

    There are times we need to hear the cold-hard truth. Many times these things are hard to swallow, but alas, we need the truth.

    If everyone is right, nobody is wrong. And if nobody is wrong,

    We won't be able to recognize evil when it stares us in the face.
    Last edited by fireee; 08-13-2020 at 12:03 AM.

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    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with the content that you say lol, it’s just the timing. Ur crazy and weird.

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    Idk I was gonna post something rambly but all I'm gonna say is, people who throw around the term "Nazi" or say "You're a nazi" too easily usually have never come across a Nazi or White Supremacist.
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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    I agree with you insofar as I've felt my hands tied about saying certain things and truth can be at odds with maintaining a desired feeling. A few things:

    -Someone can use "morality" in a cynical way in support of an agenda or someone can be genuinely opposed to verbal output causing actual pain. It isn't either/or. This talk about PC being Fi could be because through the lens of Ti, it could only be the former. A logical formality to push an agenda. The actual emotional aspect (not hurting people) would be negated and perceived as always fake. ???

    -I appreciate truth that isn't "PC" if it's presented a certain way, which would be the Fe of it (even if the unawareness of it in some cases). When anti-PC stuff is annoying, it isn't due to its logic, or facing the facts in and of themselves (which Fi obviously wouldn't be opposed to), but due to the Fe. When it's not actually just the facts, lol, but a persona deliberately constructed in the pursuit of one's own agenda and aiming to be "edgy" or something. (I'll use the n word if I want, mom! I'll wear a t-shirt to school with that word because I love facts!)

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    I have a vivid memory from 7th grade when right after I said something my LSE friend went quiet and just stared at me. She said, "you have a superpower, you know". I kept bugging her what it was, eventually she said, "it's because you are able to say really mean things without actually hurting anyone"

    Anyway, unrelated to the above, what I like about Fe/Ti types is that I feel like we can always tell each other the truth, so far as it's delivered well and with goodwill from both sides, it won't be taken badly (in general, ofc). Whereas with Fi/Te types, I don't have that sense of comfort with them. I can't entirely say the truth, but the truth is what I'm after

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    Too nice and you might seem cowardly or fake. Too truthful and you might seem like an asshole. Some balance can be maintained by being tactful. But if you don’t care, you don’t care, but you have to still deal with the consequences because that’s the harsh reality of it all, because it’s inevitably going to step on some toes.
    Pisces 🌞 Pisces 🌚 Virgo Rising

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    Laws which claim truth as illegal are illegal themselves.
    It can be excused to forbid saying something, but to force lieing not to an enemy - is against basic humanism. As misleading leads to harm and such that would be to force making harm to other one.

    Laws are made to protect _interests_ of some people. Laws which protect interests of minorities by the cost of interests of majority are antihumanistic. Those often can be thought as illegal - as contradicting to more basic laws and interests.

    There were, are and will be minorities which try to set own interests above majorities. Some of them are at power and push laws which are against majorities. They act by a lie and a force to establish such situations. It's common to have a competing between groups of people and between individs.

    About to be nice.
    Not all what is useful and for better - is pleasant. Examples of what are medicine and training. The reasonable is to act so, that the use was more than a harm (including emotions). The question is what is the balance - what is the use and harm to compare.
    The best evaluation would be emotional - the perception of happiness degree. But this should be evaluated strategically, anyway. Where moment loses in emotions mean lesser than emotions on longer time.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I'm more into 1+1=2 and like removed from reality truths.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with the content that you say lol, it’s just the timing. Ur crazy and weird.
    your teddy bear profile pic.

    why is it so cute

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    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    your teddy bear profile pic.

    why is it so cute
    Softens the blow of my Ti autism lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Softens the blow of my Ti autism lol.
    all layin there

    tryna be cute

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    The problem is people who think they "tell the truth" often tell the truth about other people, but not about themselves. They don't see all the negative comments that could be directed at them.

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    What is the truth? What is being nice?
    I've tried saying things that are generally socially accepted as nice, I've tried just saying whatever comes to my mind, I've tried not saying anything. Neither of those is either the truth or being nice ime... and they all sucked, for everyone.
    Somehow, my brain has come to some conclusion where "truth=nice" but I have no idea what the fuck it means nor how it got here.
    ... I think I like it though, it's kind of alluring a shiny little thing.
    There's also the point of why we want to say this or that, whether it's true, nice or both, that's an interesting avenue to go for around this topic.

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    wanting to be right doesn't have much to do with truth
    the work.com // non-duality

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    This is kinda off topic since it's not socionics, but niceness and honesty is related with agreeableness in big 5

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    All truths beneath me are to my liking; a truth above me, a truth that I should have to direct myself by, I am not acquainted with.

    For me there is no truth, for nothing is more than I!

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    “The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” ― Flannery O'Connor

    Figuring things out, debating, arguing, relentless, ceaseless struggle for accuracy without restraint is preferable to protecting my or other people's feelings. This is something that is not really negotiable and I often throw F into the trash for it without even realizing..

    I'd rather people be upfront and blunt with me, than tiptoe around spreading white lies to spare my feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor View Post
    This is kinda off topic since it's not socionics, but niceness and honesty is related with agreeableness in big 5
    Yeah, I score disagreeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    I'm more into 1+1=2 and like removed from reality truths.
    1+1=3 Mr. Smith..



    @onfireee I always thought LSI was some kind of Dolores Umbridge \ Karen type... are you sure you are LSI?

    e_e god I hate the Dolores Umbridge \ Karen types.. muh laws, muh weird morals

    not sure if trolling or outright trying to get banned, but you seem to be having fun. I envy you..

    - "Young man where is your mother!? I wish to speak with your mother!"
    - "Mis.X .. your son is RUDE! He needs to learn proper respect for the elderly and must be punished!" *glaring*

    ))
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 06-18-2020 at 12:15 PM.

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    Peter, The Machine, The Rock fireee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    “The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” ― Flannery O'Connor

    Figuring things out, debating, arguing, relentless, ceaseless struggle for accuracy without restraint is preferable to protecting my or other people's feelings. This is something that is not really negotiable and I often throw F into the trash for it without even realizing..

    I'd rather people be upfront and blunt with me, than tiptoe around spreading white lies to spare my feelings.



    Yeah, I score disagreeable.



    1+1=3 Mr. Smith..



    @onfireee I always thought LSI was some kind of Dolores Umbridge \ Karen type... are you sure you are LSI?

    e_e god I hate the Dolores Umbridge \ Karen types.. muh laws, muh weird morals

    not sure if trolling or outright trying to get banned, but you seem to be having fun. I envy you..

    - "Young man where is your mother!? I wish to speak with your mother!"
    - "Mis.X .. your son is RUDE! He needs to learn proper respect for the elderly and must be punished!" *glaring*

    ))
    @shotgunfingers

    Getting no likes is BADASS
    Last edited by fireee; 06-19-2020 at 04:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaruchJorgell View Post
    The problem is people who think they "tell the truth" often tell the truth about other people, but not about themselves. They don't see all the negative comments that could be directed at them.
    thats why trying to logically convince people your position hardly works. stuff like this is an emotional issue.

    i'm not really expecting to change anyone's minds, but it's interesting regardless

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor View Post
    This is kinda off topic since it's not socionics, but niceness and honesty is related with agreeableness in big 5
    Very true. And women on average are more agreeable than men

    Agreeableness and Neuroticism are the top 2 differences between men and women

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    Peter, The Machine, The Rock fireee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    All truths beneath me are to my liking; a truth above me, a truth that I should have to direct myself by, I am not acquainted with.

    For me there is no truth, for nothing is more than I!
    If what's true for u is true for u, and what's true for me is true for me,

    What if my truth says yours is a lie?

    Is it still true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeris View Post
    What is the truth? What is being nice?
    I've tried saying things that are generally socially accepted as nice, I've tried just saying whatever comes to my mind, I've tried not saying anything. Neither of those is either the truth or being nice ime... and they all sucked, for everyone.
    Somehow, my brain has come to some conclusion where "truth=nice" but I have no idea what the fuck it means nor how it got here.
    ... I think I like it though, it's kind of alluring a shiny little thing.
    There's also the point of why we want to say this or that, whether it's true, nice or both, that's an interesting avenue to go for around this topic.
    @Aeris

    I'm so glad you brought this up I think it's so interesting

    For example,

    These are objective (or universal) truths, these are basically facts that don't change:

    --You can't be sitting and standing at the same time.
    --You can't be jumping and sitting at the same time.
    --The sky is blue
    --My birthday is May 4th

    Next examples are Relative truths because it depends on the conditions/ who you are comparing to:

    --"Just because bribery is okay in some cultures doesn't mean that other cultures cannot rightfully condemn it."
    --"If you don't pay your electric bill your power will get shut off"
    --"We shouldn’t apply moral judgment to the founding fathers for owning slaves. They were a product of their time"
    --Stealing is ok if you are hungry
    --Adultery is acceptable as long as you really love the other person
    --It’s fine to lie as long as you are helping someone.

    Sometimes we withhold truths (or opinions), because we don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. This is valuing feelings over truth

    "Hey you're REALLY fat you need to lose weight" vs "Hey, no you're actually perfect, you're beautiful don't change!"

    And sometimes being nice is the right thing to do

    Last edited by fireee; 06-18-2020 at 09:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    The truth needs to be said, and not tainted just "because of the feelz"
    Well, well, well. You might say that your "truth" is not tainted by feelings, then why are you upset when people judge you/ what reaction do you expect to your message? I'm questioning your expectations/motivations because I think one can't on the one hand say "I should be allowed to say what I think regardless of other people's feelings" and on the other "people should accomodate my feelings and be nice to each other"(which sounds a lot like a double standard). When they react, maybe they think that you don't know what you're talking about, maybe they don't want to see your point of view, maybe your "truth" is the least of their problems, whatever. In the end it doesn't matter, because your issue seems that you want to give people truth and get love from them in return without thinking about whether you should have separated those in the first place.

    Doesn't Socionics teach us that Thinking and Feeling are always part of an axis? Truth and love need each other, and if you want to have any beneficial effect on people, your truths should come from a place of love. Then, sharing them with people will have a completely different meaning.

    "When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always."
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    Relative truth lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Well, well, well. You might say that your "truth" is not tainted by feelings, then why are you upset when people judge you/ what reaction do you expect to your message?
    I actually don't care lol . It's more: "smh" or shakin' my head.

    I want to make the people i've encountered better than they were before.

    But,

    It *is* fun pointing out the error/inconsistencies too

    There are double standards running rampant

    In real world: destroying/vandalizing buildings, killing black police officers

    This forum: not enforcing forum rules equally.... there have been direct and indirect racist/bigot comments (against me), and nothing was done.

    And u know what? IDAF lol, just pointing out the hypocrisy tho. whats the point of having "forum rules" if people pick and choose when they apply.

    what's the point of "preaching tolerance" when people themselves, can't?

    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    what reaction do you expect to your message?
    peaceful discourse? believe it or not there are some really cool people with opposing views on this forum who DON'T resort to dirty tactics. those i'll softly pet and let them go about their day

    i'll also try to give them chance to ask themselves:

    "hmm, maybe I've been thinking about this the wrong way"

    "yeah maybe I should look at both sides of the issue and come to my own conclusion instead of following the crowd"

    "interesting, maybe my plan to destroy Mcdonalds can wait at least a couple more days..."


    and if people want to play the troll game trust me I will give it to them. lol I grew up in a very, very liberal city so I know all ur tricks

    and please do so in person or directly...it's MUCH more entertaining

    but I digress...

    thoughts ----> actions -----> habits -----> behavior ---> destiny
    Last edited by fireee; 06-20-2020 at 09:14 PM.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    I'm a little confused about the relative truth thing. From what I can tell, it's an opinion that a person is telling the truth about having?

    I might be critical of a truth that someone tells (a relative one, or an objective one within a certain context) and this is frequently perceived as wanting to censor people or something. But I wish the truth was a more common thing and you could always face people where they stand instead of all this dancing around innuendo bullshit or calling out "dog whistles" (that may or not be intended that way) etc. So much more shit could be resolved if it was faced head on. From my Fi standpoint I also like having accurate data with which to make my evaluations of someone.

    Have a tumblr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I'm a little confused about the relative truth thing. From what I can tell, it's an opinion that a person is telling the truth about having?


    relative like....it can change depending on the context.

    For example, its generally rude/nasty to let out a loud BURP or FART while people are eating.... However, in some cultures, burping really loud while eating is considered a sign of respect (crazy right lol)

    so if something can change based on "it depends" then it's a relative truth

    also on opinions, the definition being:

    a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
    so for opinions they don't necessarily have to contain truths, facts, knowledge but they can as well

    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I might be critical of a truth that someone tells (a relative one, or an objective one within a certain context) and this is frequently perceived as wanting to censor people or something. But I wish the truth was a more common thing and you could always face people where they stand instead of all this dancing around innuendo bullshit or calling out "dog whistles" (that may or not be intended that way) etc.
    for sure, wouldn't it be awesome if things were more straight forward? like girls. if they simply told us if they liked us, man........ why do they gotta be so complicated ugh

    sometimes we believe simply because everyone else does, which can be a good thing. after all we want to fit in, be accepted, be cool. And that's fine....But when you do it every single time - it can be costly or dangerous depending on what it is.

    but its because we're human and the truth is scary or it just plain out hurts. the phrase "ignorance is bliss" or the quote "you can't handle the truth!!!" applies here - do u want to know alllll the dirty secrets of everyone right in your face 100% of the time? do u want your neighbors to know about allllll your secrets? I wouldn't, I'd probably go insane lol.

    at the end of the day we all withhold or share certain levels of information, depending on what we want. that's why I recommend for all of us - take in information from different viewpoints, sources, pros/cons, good/bad....... let it sink it .... let the emotions fade away .... THEN evaluate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    So much more shit could be resolved if it was faced head on. From my Fi standpoint I also like having accurate data with which to make my evaluations of someone.
    im usually wrong about people's evaluations/feelings/relation to me lol... after realizing this i always give myself a couple days to cool off

    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Have a tumblr.
    yea i actually used to use tumblr (back in the day) and got banned (LOL)


    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Relative truth lol
    yea it sounds like a oxymoron... but i think people made that term to better illustrate the nuance
    Last edited by fireee; 06-20-2020 at 09:11 PM.

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    Last edited by fireee; 06-20-2020 at 09:10 PM.

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    Truth has nothing to do with niceness but niceness has everything to do with how one delivers the truth. Some people wield truth like a weapon, some are oblivious to the impact of their truths and many confuse their beliefs with truth, all of which can come across as not particularly nice. As a manager, I often investigate whether they're ignorantly, naively or deliberately not being nice.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    yea i actually used to use tumblr (back in the day) and got banned (LOL)
    How on earth did you get banned from tubglr, I used to reblog and post irl gore pictures when I was a edgelord teenager and I've still never been banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    I have a vivid memory from 7th grade when right after I said something my LSE friend went quiet and just stared at me. She said, "you have a superpower, you know". I kept bugging her what it was, eventually she said, "it's because you are able to say really mean things without actually hurting anyone"

    Anyway, unrelated to the above, what I like about Fe/Ti types is that I feel like we can always tell each other the truth, so far as it's delivered well and with goodwill from both sides, it won't be taken badly (in general, ofc). Whereas with Fi/Te types, I don't have that sense of comfort with them. I can't entirely say the truth, but the truth is what I'm after
    100%

    whats your type, if u dont mind me asking

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I agree with you insofar as I've felt my hands tied about saying certain things and truth can be at odds with maintaining a desired feeling. A few things:

    -Someone can use "morality" in a cynical way in support of an agenda or someone can be genuinely opposed to verbal output causing actual pain. It isn't either/or. This talk about PC being Fi could be because through the lens of Ti, it could only be the former. A logical formality to push an agenda. The actual emotional aspect (not hurting people) would be negated and perceived as always fake. ???

    -I appreciate truth that isn't "PC" if it's presented a certain way, which would be the Fe of it (even if the unawareness of it in some cases). When anti-PC stuff is annoying, it isn't due to its logic, or facing the facts in and of themselves (which Fi obviously wouldn't be opposed to), but due to the Fe. When it's not actually just the facts, lol, but a persona deliberately constructed in the pursuit of one's own agenda and aiming to be "edgy" or something. (I'll use the n word if I want, mom! I'll wear a t-shirt to school with that word because I love facts!)
    the most frustrating part is when people immediately can't see the "greater good" and immediately condemn me lol ..... and it happens over and over and over and over

    but again, i can't get them to "logically" understand this.... its why the statement "people dont change" exist.

    o well

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    the most frustrating part is when people immediately can't see the "greater good" and immediately condemn me lol ..... and it happens over and over and over and over

    but again, i can't get them to "logically" understand this.... its why the statement "people dont change" exist.

    o well
    If it keeps happening, I’d say one of two things. One, what they are seeing is real. Or, two, what they are seeing might not be “real”, but it is exactly what you want them to see.

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    It seems like some people, if you're not really nice to them, are really mean to you. There's no middle ground.

    It also seems like some people demand too much "respect." Their definition of respect is, "If you don't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a person."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    It seems like some people, if you're not really nice to them, are really mean to you. There's no middle ground.

    It also seems like some people demand too much "respect." Their definition of respect is, "If you don't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a person."
    EXACTLY. its like my way or the highway... no nuance/gray areas for you buddy. then u get tossed to the side until u give in to their "demands"

    and its like lol really...





    We can't get along with everyone (socio-type wise), but we can still learn to be civil

    Most people don't care about the latter and instead choose to do the whole passive-aggressive shit. Its what it means to constantly take value (whats in it for me), instead of learning "to give value"

    It's WAY too easy to do this in the age of immediate gratification/phones/i'm-a-bitch-so-ill-just-ignore-the-issue/person mentality. Keep making this a character trait, and you will dive yourself into a deeper grave. and when something finally registers that you've been a totally unfair piece of shit ... its too late.

    if ur on the receiving end of this, this is where adding boundaries come into play here. don't let people do this to u.

    while God's love for us is unconditional,

    we have "to help" or love our fellow human beings the best we can. and part of this is telling them things they don't want to hear, and sending the message that maintaining a relationship takes *some* effort
    Last edited by fireee; 06-21-2020 at 04:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onfireee View Post
    100%

    whats your type, if u dont mind me asking
    IEI
    No I don't mind you asking !

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    I think there can be both. The message can be catered in such a way it speaks to the recipient's perception.

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    If you get aware of the reality of certain things, that is not going to be a nice experience.

    Where do you think the whole 'loss of innocence' 'growing pains' comes from?

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    I guess it all matters to me what your general underlying goal is. How truly impersonal is your quest for 'truth.' I don't think things should be sugarcoated much but at the same time if you insist on 'I'm just keeping it real' but you seem to want to make people feel bad (because you yourself feel bad, I mean if you look at it objectively most bullies come from a place of lack in their own lives) then it doesn't seem to be all that constructive. I mean there is obviously a reason we don't just go up to ppl in society and be like 'lol ur poor and u smell' even if it's true because of how socially uncouth/sadistic it is or something. A child might naively and innocently say things like that but then usually a parent will be super embarrassed and correct that person cuz of the conflicts it can cause.

    And also, me and another forum member were talking about how everybody has like funny but sadistic but true things they think about other ppl but don't obviously say those things all the times for many reasons. If everybody just said out loud what they thought about everybody all the time, everybody would just probably die and get killed out of revenge? lol Being an adult is kinda learning to control these impulses regardless of the "truth." Truth can be very overrated- I mean shit is real after all it doesn't mean u smear ur face with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I guess it all matters to me what your general underlying goal is. How truly impersonal is your quest for 'truth.' I don't think things should be sugarcoated much but at the same time if you insist on 'I'm just keeping it real' but you seem to want to make people feel bad (because you yourself feel bad, I mean if you look at it objectively most bullies come from a place of lack in their own lives) then it doesn't seem to be all that constructive. I mean there is obviously a reason we don't just go up to ppl in society and be like 'lol ur poor and u smell' even if it's true because of how socially uncouth/sadistic it is or something. A child might naively and innocently say things like that but then usually a parent will be super embarrassed and correct that person cuz of the conflicts it can cause.

    And also, me and another forum member were talking about how everybody has like funny but sadistic but true things they think about other ppl but don't obviously say those things all the times for many reasons. If everybody just said out loud what they thought about everybody all the time, everybody would just probably die and get killed out of revenge? lol Being an adult is kinda learning to control these impulses regardless of the "truth." Truth can be very overrated- I mean shit is real after all it doesn't mean u smear ur face with it.
    hahaha so true. There's a difference between using the truth as a copout for being a complete asshole and using truth for constructive means. Also, there has been some research into how we lie to ourselves on a daily basis so no one person is the "arbiter of truth". People who tie honesty and truth to the core of their being often fall prey to self-delusion the hardest, IME.

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