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Thread: JK Rowling's Thoughts on Some Trans Activism

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    Default JK Rowling's Thoughts on Some Trans Activism

    Rowling has been criticized a lot recently for being reportedly anti-trans: https://www.queerty.com/jk-rowling-c...weets-20200518. Some people have called her a TERF.

    She recently wrote an essay responding to accusations of transphobia on her website: https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j...gender-issues/

    Does anyone have any thoughts on Rowling's opinions? Is JKR transphobic? Yes? No? Other?

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    I was just kinda skimming through her initial article when I decided to unclench and come to the forum instead, and saw this, lol.

    A list of disparate and not fully formed thoughts that I'm going to toss out before taking a bath instead-

    -"biology of sex" bullshit isn't important to me personally, but for a very long time it has mattered to people who inflict sexual violence or create (subordinate) gender roles etc and is that relevant? Does that mean "biology of sex" should matter? This is something I need to think about more, and maybe it doesn't. But if biology will continue to be a reason for those things, I feel like maybe it does? Even if I don't personally feel like.. Penis=male hehe ScIeNcE lol. In simple terms, if penises were routinely chopped off, you wouldn't find it irrelevant that you had one, lol, and you might resent being told it didn't matter if you do or not. So then it just comes down to whether you think sexism against people who are recognized by misogynists as female (generally cuz they have vaginas) is a thing and THAT'S something we all agree on (lol)

    -I don't know the trans activist stance at large about sexuality as it relates to genitals? But I've seen a fair amount of material about how lesbians should question themselves about why they're reluctant to suck dick because of the transphobic reasons they might have for their preferences and it makes me feel wary about transactivicts and I'd like to #Not All them??? Can I do that?

    -The risk of a cis man giving enough shits to pretend to be a trans woman so that he can go in a female bathroom seems ridiculously low. I believe I've been in a bathroom with a penis a dozen times and not known it. Whatever. If a man wants to grab a pussy he'll just do it. Word up.

    - This looks to center around trans women but I want to hear from the trans men since they get both ends of the stick. (I'm not comparing their severity. I most definitely like being identified as female by misogynists more than I would like being identified as trans, at all. Maybe that needs emphasis.)

    - I feel like there needs to be a way for "your genitals are relevant if they're a reason you're a target" and "people shouldn't be placed in certain slots because of physical characteristics they were born with" to coexist happily as ideas but that would require (at the least) people to compromise with those who find their existence inconvenient. Not a lot of faith that will happen.

    Bye

    This list of thoughts became stupidly long and I keep editing it. Bah

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    Wait a minute. Lesbians are reluctant to suck dick? This could mean that if I ever get that female ESI artist with a GF to switch ball teams, I am going to be so disappointed.


    *EDIT*

    To the OP: This falls under the “other” opinion category.

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    That she should be able to voice her thoughts without receiving a torrent of abuse is a perfectly reasonable expectation. It's important for the functioning of a free society that dissenting opinions are heard and debated. The visceral abuse she receives on social media directed at driving her away is toxic and, assuming that it's genuine, underscores everything that is wrong with the SJW movement.


    RE. her opinion: I don't know whether transwomen are real women. The question "What is identity?" is philosophical, and philosophical questions don't have an objective answer.

    It's the abortion debate all over again with its question "What is life?". Both are among the ultimate questions facing humankind, and there is no satisfying, scientific way to answer either of them.
    Last edited by xerxe; 06-12-2020 at 07:10 AM.

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    Calling her a TERF is pretty lazy imo. How does her feminism fall into the same category as "rad fems"? Those women are very militant and extreme in what they do, they're violent and virulent in their beliefs when it comes to women, trans people, non binaries, LGBT, and hell even men.

    I understand that the term "TERF" has evolved with time, as most words and terms do. But imo what JK did could simply be called transphobic. Like I said, TERFs are a whole different thing with very different beliefs.

    I skimmed through her essay apology and it's BS.
    "I was transphobic, I was a cunt, a bitch, a TERF, I deserved cancelling, punching and death."
    "The last thing I want to say is this. I haven’t written this essay in the hope that anybody will get out a violin for me, not even a teeny-weeny one."
    What? She's so self pitying with a thin layer of "objectivity". Also, is this really the time for awkward humor? The essay feels like a waste of time especially due to the way she ends it with:
    "All I’m asking – all I want – is for similar empathy, similar understanding, to be extended to the many millions of women whose sole crime is wanting their concerns to be heard without receiving threats and abuse."
    I do agree. But while I see how feminism and trans rights intersect, why bring it up here unless she's being explicit that she's acknowledging that trans people, especially trans women, have a place to be heard in these spaces? Especially with her history of transphobia? Otherwise I think people will assume she's just regarding cis women when that may not be the case, so it also can feel dismissive since it's not very clear. So the thought would be, "Yeah, trans women are women, but does she just mean cis women as she usually does?". I would like to give her the benefit of a doubt, however. As cheesy and as dismissive as that remark sounds, no matter how you cut it.
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    Disgusting, pointless witch hunt under the 'banner' of trans people.

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    No she's not transphobic this is so retarded. That said Harry Potter sucks and I think that's what needs to be addressed first of all. I'm Ravenclaw btw.

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    I think she has made it fairly clear that her issue is not with trans people but with trans activism as it currently exists. How well-founded her concerns are is difficult for me to judge, given that I am not well-versed in these matters. I do think she could have been more attentive to how her comments were likely to be received, though, and raised the same issues in a more graceful fashion, one that would have made it clear right from the outset that she isn't prejudiced against trans people.

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    I haven't read the JK Rowling article. I do feel weird sometimes reading news outlets, like all of the information and how it's presented has to fit into the outlet's political leanings. I get why it's important during crucial times to expound on the view that's "right" rather than to give people who you disagree with any leeway to take a tiny bit of negative news and blow it up. but i feel like i'm being managed somehow.

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    I think a lot of what she says is like, naive nittering grandma stuff- like the energy kinda feels like "those damn n*gs" your grandma says in her rocking chair during the Holidays. But I mean, a little different of course since she's Upper class and not middle or working class. So she won't quite word it like that, but that's the way her energy feels to me a lot of the time.

    And she shouldn't make the issue be about her as a straight cis woman being sexually abused - it's like trying to play victim and get people to feel sorry for her to avoid taking responsibility for what she said. Like I'm sorry you had to go through with that, but that doesn't give you an excuse to be bigoted about transfolk. Especially for somebody who uses Stoopid Magikal Kreatures as an allegory for real world discrimination, ya know?

    Discrimination isn't about rape or sexual abuse or hurt feelings or 'I wish this situation would narcissitically go my way because I'm a minority!' it's when "the system" as a whole is unfairly against one group of people. True it's usually because most people just don't like that group emotionally I guess but I think- it is more complicated than that. I mean when we used to give black people 33% of the vote we thought we were being oh so nice and compassionate lmao.

    Well I think yea, str8 women sometimes get perved on really, really hard. This is kind of a non-PC thing to say but maybe they don't like it as much as when gay guys receive it since we're usually thought of as 'gross' in the bad way a lot and so when somebody does shamelessly perv on us, it can feel more good for us than it would for them. Plus I mean I'm still a guy and all that, and feel like I can most of the time physically defend myself against unwanted advances as well- it's probably different for women in that area. And with them it does seem to happen more often objectively since most people are straight anyway. So addressing sexual abuse against straight women is fine and dandy - but don't be shitty to trans people either or use that as some sort of excuse or veil to be a bitch just because you were hurt.

    I think when she tries to be nice or like 'I support trans women BUT' blah blah it sounds manipulative and maybe, she needs to be educated and stuff about them.

    It's just a bit ridiculous for a person who likes to wrap themselves up in the rainbow flag to say things like that, and her tone is condescending to boot.

    But it's not wise to 'eat our own' so to speak and I think we should recognize the contributions she has made for the GLBT community at large. Well maybe more like TRIED to make since I think they sort of fell flat organically speaking and she just says those nice things because she was conditioned by other rich and powerful people from their timely decorated homes. i.e it's generic SJW stuff almost all celebs say. But who cares, let's just forgive her and move on already because like I said in the other thread 'there are bigger fish to fry.' In the end I'm not T though so it's up to them how much they want to forgive her.
    Last edited by BandD; 06-13-2020 at 02:01 AM.

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    And another thing about sexual abuse, it's hard for me to believe people with that because of how often in real life I've seen people make up false stories to play victim and manipulate others to get their way and career-climb, and of course you can still use something genuinely upsetting that happened to you as a way to dishonestly manipulate others. So things like #BELIEVEHER um no I won't, not necessarily, cuz it's not that simple.
    Last edited by BandD; 06-13-2020 at 02:31 AM.

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    A nice way for the most successful professional writer to gain some more attention at the tail end of when everyone’s still at home. It’s possible that no part of what she wrote represents any of her actual beliefs. I think she probably knew what she was doing, consciously or unconsciously.

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    I think that fear of 'eww a str8 male perv is going to pretend they are trans to go into the female bathroom and then perv on them' is unfounded this day and age because online social media/CCTV etc. has made privacy almost non-existant and it would be really easy for authorities to filter out real trans people between people who might actually do stuff like that. Seems like a dumb arguement to not give trans people their equal rights. ((and also why getting rid of all police everywhere, is too radically left and not a wise choice either))

    She was also whining about that certificate that made it easier I guess for people to officially declare their trans status. Again, if a straight male asshole- or any asshole, is getting one for jokes or to troll that should be pretty easy to figure out. And then she said something like how she would support trans ppl if they took a loooong time to figure out that's what they really wanted to be. Excuse me, Wumpkin-Cakes? Straight women and gay men and anybody else really knew who we were rather quickly of course usually speaking. Did it really take you a bunch of years to figure out you were a heterosexual woman? Don't be retarded JK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Don't be retarded JK.
    Lol

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    The whole debate is skewed by vocabulary and terminology. Feminists and trans-folks will argue about it for eternity. I mean the phrase "people that menstruate" is probably quite an annoying for most female readers. Is there a term for having a penis or a vagina? Biologically speaking it is male or female. Then you can get into arguments about genetics and shit XX v.s. XY.... which is another biological argument. Then you end up with a guy that feels like a woman, but has a penis, you've just shitted on the very definitions that were created. Now I believe that there are definitive genetic patterns even with a Y chromosome that can make a male feel like a woman. There can be environmental issues as well(and epigenetic trends). Trans people can be like... well that's why I'm a woman, because my body makes me feel like a woman. Then the feminists can come back and say that they don't have a vagina or an XX chromosome pair. It's an impossible futile argument. Both sides want to be called a woman, but that's impossible because the word woman can only mean one thing. I mean turning the word woman into a multi-definition term creates a major issue especially when it comes to policy and maintaining some sort of equality between groups. It's impossible to reconcile without one side being willing to adopt a new language. That's not going to happen though and I expect the two groups to be at war for a while. It won't just be the "radical terf" feminists before long.
    Last edited by Hitta; 06-13-2020 at 04:36 AM.
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    what did jk rowling say when she was accused of being transphobic? nah i'm jk

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    laugh now

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    A nice way for the most successful professional writer to gain some more attention at the tail end of when everyone’s still at home. It’s possible that no part of what she wrote represents any of her actual beliefs. I think she probably knew what she was doing, consciously or unconsciously.
    It's easy to claim that someone is doing something for attention when what they say draws attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    It's easy to claim that someone is doing something for attention when what they say draws attention.
    If you’re famous and have various social media outlets, that’s basically what is going to happen. She doesn’t have to use social media. Some celebrities are private and politically silent. Unless she’s incredibly naive/stupid (unlikely), it was a conscious choice taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    If you’re famous and have various social media outlets, that’s basically what is going to happen. She doesn’t have to use social media. Some celebrities are private and politically silent. Unless she’s incredibly naive/stupid (unlikely), it was a conscious choice taken.
    But that doesn't mean she was doing it "for attention." She could be trying to use her platform to root for stuff she cares about -- what she believes to be positive social change. That isn't the same as doing something for attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    But that doesn't mean she was doing it "for attention." She could be trying to use her platform to root for stuff she cares about -- what she believes to be positive social change. That isn't the same as doing something for attention.
    That’s true but she should know to expect that’s also going to happen. The result is that she’s going to have a spotlight directed at her, and she almost certainly is aware of that. Even if it wasn’t her main goal, it’s such a huge aspect of the fallout that it’s pointless to ignore it having some role.

    Unless she’s completely thoughtless and not socially aware. But I don’t think that’s the case.

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    Yeah I don't think a person who retcons a bunch of information and tweets things like "Dumblydorf is home-of-sexual who had passionate sex with Pringlewalls" would be unaware of what they're doing here, with liking a joke like that. Unless she was being "ironic" and actually taking jabs while making those types of tweets. Some people think she's dog-whistling actual TERFs and trying to turn HP into the new TERF bibles but I'm still not sold on that.
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    Yeah sure... let's all just throw ourselves against one person.

    I mean how much do some of these people really care.

    I swear just have to post this again and again.

    “There is perhaps no phenomenon which contains so much destructive feelings as “moral indignation,” which permits envy or hate to be acted out under the guise of virtue. The “indignant” person has for once the satisfaction of despising and treating a creature as “inferior,” coupled with the feeling of his own superiority and rightness.”― Erich Fromm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Does anyone have any thoughts on Rowling's opinions? Is JKR transphobic? Yes? No? Other?
    I have a non-opinion on it.

    I'm not personally invested and I don't particular feel like hating on trans people or stepping in line with trans identity theory (or whatever you call it).

    I'm glad that there is discussion around the area though, it's good for society in general.
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    What gets criminally ignored in the discussion about transsexualism is that it's only the beginning of the body modification movement. One day, perhaps in the late 21st century and in our lifetimes, genetic engineering may be sophisticated enough and commercially viable enough to allow people to alter their anatomies at the cellular level.

    What's coming, perhaps trans-tigers, trans-dragons, and trans-mermaids, is going to make gender swapping seem quaint and innocent. We may even see speciation — segregation of humanity into separate breeds that cannot produce fertile offspring with each other.

    How long can government and society keep a lid on this sort of thing — 100 years? 10,000? I could be wildly overestimating the human desire for change and novelty, but, viewed from this perspective, opposing transsexualism seems futile. It's still a pretty interesting discussion, though, and a welcome break from Covid-19.....
    Last edited by xerxe; 06-15-2020 at 08:56 PM.

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    i dont care what jk rowling or anyone for that matter thinks or says and i dont care about harry potter either why is this even something ppl talk about

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    i dont care about emma watson

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    fuck you ron weasley

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    Quote Originally Posted by dedxx View Post
    i dont care about emma watson
    It's a Feminist Rally. Many little feminist have gathered there today to see one big rich feminist speak. They are all very excited. They can't wait. "When will she be here?" one of the little feminist asks. "When will she speak?" another of the little feminist questions.

    The big rich feminist arrives. You can tell she is big and she is rich and she is feminist. She is emma watson. She will speak.

    She walks up the steps and makes way onto the stage. She trots up the podium. As she inhales, all the little feminist hold their breath. All the little feminist know this will be good.

    "Woman." big rich feminist emma watson utters into the microphone, raising her arms up in a bold pose.

    The crowd goes wild. The event is live-streamed and televised. It is on the news. Buzzfeed publishes multiple articles on the event. The big rich feminist does this for free because she is already rich, and doesn't need the money.

    How kind.

    "We should be more like her!" all the little feminist says. They all chant this.

    Everyone is happy.

    Everyone is happy.

    (btw, when I google "feminist rally speech" emma watson does come up along with halsey lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    That she should be able to voice her thoughts without receiving a torrent of abuse is a perfectly reasonable expectation. It's important for the functioning of a free society that dissenting opinions are heard and debated. The visceral abuse she receives on social media directed at driving her away is toxic and, assuming that it's genuine, underscores everything that is wrong with the SJW movement.
    I want to qualify the above point: you can take this attitude too far by going on a counter-crusade against SJWs, as has happened time and again with the tedious and repetitive clash of SJWs vs. anti-SJWs.

    I worked a job in retail, and I can assure you that people absolutely *love* to complain over the most trivial shit. They love to complain that you asked them not to complain. It would be better for our collective health, as a society, to let things slide, which means learning to ignore hecklers. Not every disagreement is an apocalyptic struggle where the other side is presumed to violate every sacred principle of liberty we hold dear.

    It can't be good for people's sanity that our democracies are slowly turning into the Jerry Springer show.


    EDIT: I'm not exculpating myself here, as I'm probably just as guilty of this for (say) going after Jordan Peterson. It's best to take a break from social media and channel all that reading energy into something worthwhile, like a book.
    Last edited by xerxe; 06-17-2020 at 05:22 AM.

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    I feel like this topic is not safe to talk about. If one wants to discuss it philosophically, it can easily be misconstrued as wanting to fight against the rights of transgender people. Being concerned about some of the changes to society that are going through for human rights reasons to include/not discriminate against transgender people, can also be seen as fighting against the rights of transgender people. I really don't know what I think about what JK Rowling said because I'm too confused. If she is misgendering people and advocating against creating inclusive restrooms that is "bad" in that it is fighting against things that are needed. I've watched enough videos on this to see that being misgendered really hurts transgender people and I've read that bathrooms are not safe for transgender people because it's a place in which their identity can be questioned, and by people who hate them for not being cis-gendered and want to harm them. How we structure our bathrooms really doesn't need to be sacred. And honestly for cis-women worried about being raped in the bathroom, one can be raped anywhere--at home, in a dark alley, at a party, or even in the women's restroom (just as the way it is)... Rapists haven't generally been lying in wait for their access to the women's restroom lol.

    In general I am worried about the SJW movement as well because it tends to break everything into a binary. It is one side, or it is the other. One side is evil, the other side is good. If you disagree with or question anything on the good side (while largely agreeing with the good side overall), then you are not on the good side, therefore you are evil. And if you are evil, the consequences are devastating. It's a sort of psychological imprisonment, to find a way to not say the things that would mark you as potentially "evil." But even saying what I just did leads to this absolute of "Oh, so you disagree with SJWs and the entirety of their movements then DON'T YOU?! Ah ha! Evil verified! Exterminate. EXTERMINATE!"

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    I feel like in general, if people are going to claim that sexual assault influenced their views like this, then they should be specific about what happened. As far as I know, JK just said it happened in her 20s at the hand of some opportunistic man, but she didn’t give any other details. I don’t feel sympathy for feeling too vulnerable to get into it in these cases. She said it played like a loop in her mind, so obviously she should remember what happened, but she didn’t bother to describe it. Just seems like non-impactful, possibly bs worthless info otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I feel like in general, if people are going to claim that sexual assault influenced their views like this, then they should be specific about what happened. As far as I know, JK just said it happened in her 20s at the hand of some opportunistic man, but she didn’t give any other details. I don’t feel sympathy for feeling too vulnerable to get into it in these cases. She said it played like a loop in her mind, so obviously she should remember what happened, but she didn’t bother to describe it. Just seems like non-impactful, possibly bs worthless info otherwise.
    I was getting the feeling that she has trauma from things like sexual assault and domestic violence from men, which a lot of women do, and it can lead to fearing men in certain contexts or being triggered by certain things, which sends someone through the PTSD trauma loop again. I don't understand what to do with this conceptually though because the issue is that JK Rowling sounds like she is perceiving at least some transgender women as men and referring to them as men, which is where the entire problem comes in, because that's denying their existence as women and this is at the heart of the entire mess since they are fighting for their right to live freely as their gender(s).

    Unfortunately this just isn't a topic that can be understood without nuance and I feel like nuance is often missing, and even the word "nuance" is probably politicized now as the extreme right wing can use arguments about nuance to try to gain acceptance of bigotry (it's not bigotry, it's nuance!). They probably took the word from the left wing as I recall it being used a lot on the left to argue against bigoted views. Anyway, Twitter doesn't allow enough characters for nuance, and maybe that's why everything is 0 or 1.
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-19-2020 at 05:55 PM.

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    That tweet made me go cross-eyed

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    𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝐹𝓊𝒸𝓀𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒟𝑒𝒶𝓉𝒽𝒹𝑒𝒶𝓁𝑒𝓇 Vex's Avatar
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    If you are a lesbian who doesn't like dick. then you aren't a real lesbian bc what about trans women? Sorry but it has to be said. #IntersectionalLesbianism
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
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    that anything alone is
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    & any two things
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    What use are flowers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbeaux Rainfox View Post
    There is perhaps no phenomenon which contains so much destructive feelings as “moral indignation,” which permits envy or hate to be acted out under the guise of virtue. The “indignant” person has for once the satisfaction of despising and treating a creature as “inferior,” coupled with the feeling of his own superiority and rightness.”― Erich Fromm

    requote cos Ive been thru this shit here lol (but I believe this is a common behavior for americans, puritans and quakkers and whatnot)


    also Rowling <3

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    tweet: "hey let's pray that this year all children will be treated well!"

    comments: "wow, I would have never expected such a post from you! what about the rights of Laron or Batton diseased people? and dwarfs? aren't they short human beings too? so don't they have right to be treated well?! wow, so racist really, have a white rich privilege check sometimes ok?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    I was getting the feeling that she has trauma from things like sexual assault and domestic violence from men, which a lot of women do, and it can lead to fearing men in certain contexts or being triggered by certain things, which sends someone through the PTSD trauma loop again. I don't understand what to do with this conceptually though because the issue is that JK Rowling sounds like she is perceiving at least some transgender women as men and referring to them as men, which is where the entire problem comes in, because that's denying their existence as women and this is at the heart of the entire mess since they are fighting for their right to live freely as their gender(s).

    Unfortunately this just isn't a topic that can be understood without nuance and I feel like nuance is often missing, and even the word "nuance" is probably politicized now as the extreme right wing can use arguments about nuance to try to gain acceptance of bigotry (it's not bigotry, it's nuance!). They probably took the word from the left wing as I recall it being used a lot on the left to argue against bigoted views. Anyway, Twitter doesn't allow enough characters for nuance, and maybe that's why everything is 0 or 1.
    I wasn’t replying to you btw. I agree with some parts of what you’ve said here though.

    I was just saying that she should’ve been more specific about the abuse otherwise it sounds potentially dramatized or made up, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I wasn’t replying to you btw. I agree with some parts of what you’ve said here though.

    I was just saying that she should’ve been more specific about the abuse otherwise it sounds potentially dramatized or made up, IMO.
    I didn't think she really needed to because sexual assault and domestic violence against women are so common. I don't know if it would help her case either way since she's saying why she is afraid of men and that's the crux of the criticism against her--treating transgender women as men.

  40. #40
    𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝐹𝓊𝒸𝓀𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒟𝑒𝒶𝓉𝒽𝒹𝑒𝒶𝓁𝑒𝓇 Vex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    “There is perhaps no phenomenon which contains so much destructive feelings as “moral indignation,” which permits envy or hate to be acted out under the guise of virtue. The “indignant” person has for once the satisfaction of despising and treating a creature as “inferior,” coupled with the feeling of his own superiority and rightness.”― Erich Fromm

    requote cos Ive been thru this shit here lol (but I believe this is a common behavior for americans, puritans and quakkers and whatnot)


    also Rowling <3
    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    tweet: "hey let's pray that this year all children will be treated well!"

    comments: "wow, I would have never expected such a post from you! what about the rights of Laron or Batton diseased people? and dwarfs? aren't they short human beings too? so don't they have right to be treated well?! wow, so racist really, have a white rich privilege check sometimes ok?"
    You do realize this is what JK ROFL did in her apology essay that was linked in the first post? I even posted about how she pulled this card. Looks like I gotta take a screenshot because people can't read.




    Play the tiny violins.

    IDK a thing about her besides her twitter shenanigans, and all I know about her books and movies are the My Immortal fanfic (10/10 would read again and again), but I'm pretty sure she's British/English.



    And she pulled the same card you are talking about.

    So idk what you are talking about.
    devourer of the sun // consumer of the moon
    & you know now,
    that anything alone is
    a haunting

    & any two things
    together is a terror.
    What use are flowers?

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