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Thread: Concept of democracy in Gamma vs leadership

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    Default Concept of democracy in Gamma vs leadership

    Here my question points towards not only the difference in the meaning of democracy between the Gamma and Alpha quadras, but also the raw definition of democracy and leadership and how they can be combined in Socionics. That is why I am posting this question under the Gamma quadra subject.

    FM-2030, the futurist, had mentioned in his UCLA class on the subject "the next 20 years" that if one truly is a futurist, they should not vote for elections which involve voting for a leader. Referendums do not belong to these types of elections.

    He says: "Feudal industrial democracy was predicated on representation and leadership, leadership being essentially a very primitive, frankly not even industrial-age system, a very primitive concept in the construct of interpersonal relations, one person leads and the other person follows; in other words, it presumes that one person has a concentration of information or wealth or power and the other person is really reduced to a more subservient position; the concept of leadership is intrinsically undemocratic, because it presumes as I say, it presumes an imbalance in power and an imbalance in information and all. In the Telesphere world or the post-industrial world information flows horizontally, everybody has access to information all you have to do is to pick up your receiver or press a button or turn on your this or turn on your that, you have he same access to information as these other individuals, there is a decentralization and despecialization in information. What we want is to move towards electronic democracy or teledemocracy where individuals vote for not other individuals, not for leaders, not for representatives but on issues. Here at the very beginning of the telesphere age we see a painfully gradual shift from representative and parliamentary democracy to teledemocracy where we vote directly on issues."

    Now, FM-2030 himself was an extremely individualistic intellectual. As a person supposedly belonging to the Gamma quadra, I have found almost all of his ideas making sense to me personally. Even the reason for his official name change from Fereydoun Esfandiary to FM-2030 was because he believed names impose a collectivist identity in terms of ethnicity, gender and cultural heritage on individuals and this will not be the case in the near future. He considered this type of name giving to belong to primitive and tribal times.

    According to the above mentioned definition of leadership, a quadra which consists of types SEE and LIE as extroverts, which both have leadership qualities and tendencies, how can the Gamma quadra be considered democratic?

    In the description of LIE is written "He sometimes has a hero complex with a strong tendency to defend all those he sees weaker than himself"

    This is absolutely true.

    The artworks and cartoons made about SEEs always show them with a crown.
    19f1dc53e0b4056bdba81eea191cef97--napoleon-psychology.jpg

    How can this, in your opinion, have been considered democratic in Socionics, to be a leader?

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    @Zero, I think the problem lies in the definition of terms.


    My explanation is fairly long and I’m pressed for time, so the above is a bookmark that I can find and return to when I have more time. Sorry to be a jerk.

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    Leadership doesn't mean domination or hierarchy, people can look up to someone as a leader because that person inspires them and/or teaches based on experience and knoweldge. Note that knoweldge isn't the same thing as information: nowadays everyone has access to information, which is a good thing, but people often think that just having access to information over the internet makes you qualified to do a job, or to understand life. Knowledge on the other hand comes with experience, so you can't become knowledgeable simply by reading books.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    H
    Now, FM-2030 himself was an extremely individualistic intellectual. As a person supposedly belonging to the Gamma quadra, I have found almost all of his ideas making sense to me personally. Even the reason for his official name change from Fereydoun Esfandiary to FM-2030 was because he believed names impose a collectivist identity in terms of ethnicity, gender and cultural heritage on individuals and this will not be the case in the near future. He considered this type of name giving to belong to primitive and tribal times.
    Just looked him up. He seems very interesting.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Zero, I think the problem lies in the definition of terms.


    My explanation is fairly long and I’m pressed for time, so the above is a bookmark that I can find and return to when I have more time. Sorry to be a jerk.
    You're far from being a jerk, trust me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    Just looked him up. He seems very interesting.
    There is a movie about him which recently came out in 2020, http://www.2030thefilm.com/
    I've been looking for a torrent version but haven't found yet so haven't watched myself but it must be interesting

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    When the definition of words and politics meet up in a sentence, the usual result can't be good at all. I've tried this experiment with my friends. We've decided to debate our ideas on something specific, like the problem with the garbage in huge cities. Then, we've used prendo.com in order to simulate a debate and the result was outstanding. Each one of us essentially transformed because we were so caught up in winning this thing. I can't even tell you how heated everything became that we had to stop. It's pretty bad that people can't come to a conclusion and each one is going to support its idea, even if it isn't the best
    Last edited by Raywaytut; 02-11-2022 at 08:19 AM.

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    Yes don't vote in elections, it's collectivist. There's nothing useful that can come out of collective interests. Government-funded propaganda machine fueling systems of control and calling it education.

    Anyone who calls themselves a futurist is someone to be wary of, modern-day Fabians.
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

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    Hypotheses
    Aristocrats: Ethical intuitive types create new groups ("inhabitants of suburbs", "typical representative of a new generation of goalkeepers")—adding up or summing up certain cumulative features which are inherent in the majority. Logical sensing types use these groupings that have been created by ethical intuitives, switching to their strong logical function and building a system of personal relations on its basis.


    Democrats: In perception of a democrat, a group is created from individuals drawn together on basis of a common interest, project, idea (for logical intuitive types) or on basis of mutual sentiments and sympathies (for ethical sensing types). Additionally, a group in perception of democratic types is not the basis for creating a social hierarchy.
    Aristocracy is something that really bothers me.

    Influence of this attribute on determination of the type of personality

    1. Hierarchy and status are frequently described as inherent to structural logic (Ti). According to our observations this is entirely false. White logic (Ti) types of the first quadra will adhere to formal requirements, but will not begin to reconstruct all of their behavior in accordance to a new status. In this manner will act the aristocrats of the second quadra, most obviously the sensing logical types. Some confusion can arise due to this. If we were to observe, we would see that other aristocratic types are no less inclined to such "status games", for example "I demand that they relate to me as the director" (EIE), "I cannot associate with those of a higher position than me" (IEE).
    2. Division of people into "mine" and "not mine" is frequently attributed to aristocracy. In actuality, this division holds true for any types that values white ethics (Fi), including the democratic types (SEE, and in particular ESI). If we expand this concept, then "my" is any person with whom close relations have been formed, there is a familiar connection or sincere attachment. For the IEE an EII sincere attachment and belonging to a group become combined: "mine" and "not mine" for them are members of "their group" or "foreign group".
    3. Switching from "you" to "formal you" [Russian language and a few other languages have formal and informal forms of reference] is not always significant from the point of view of manifestation of this attribute. According to the standards of etiquette and rules of behavior, it is accepted to address older people and those in senior position with formal form of "you" (with respect), and different informal situations, regardless of the rules, require switch to informal "you". For instance if a child's mother is the teacher in his class, then the child will refer to her with formal "you" in class. It is possible to give more example of this. The important thing is not how they are addressed, but the reason for doing so.
    For aristocrats, the group one belongs to is important and they will not want to be associated with a group they wish not to be a part of. This is something that is just as frustrating from Deltas as Betas.

    Democrats: "I'm not interested in social affiliations of a person or other social 'marks' they may have" "I don't even have thoughts of establishing someone's affiliations to any groups. A person is a unit" "It is important what the individual represents" "When I interact with somebody I don't really care whether they are a man or a woman" "It is difficult for me to determine what constitutes belonging to a group, I cannot isolate that something that differentiates from others" "I am a representative only of my own ideas" "I notice groups, but it's just a game (they are not real, the groups are pretended)".



    Aristocrats: "I perceive people based on their group affiliations, place everyone "on a shelf" ("a good mother", "a charming person", etc.)" "If it is possible to determine in which grouping the person belongs, then this is reassuring. It is easier to receive information from someone knowing which group they are a part of" "I separate people based on their professional capabilities. First: to what social and economic stratus the person belongs to. Second: is he a professional or not, the way he conducts himself, his individual qualities" "I am referring to you as to a typical representative of translators" "At my workplace they hired a new secretary recently, and she works poorly, and in general is not that kind of a person. May be because she is from the suburbs... please don't misunderstand me, I'm not an aristocrat! I'm not!" "For me this religion means nothing, but for the ordinary people it is necessary" "You are my friend, but my friends don't steal toilet paper from McDonalds!"
    Social status and group affiliation mean nothing to me, I don't care if you are the president of the united states, if you are wrong you should be called out.

    As for the SEE wearing the crown that @Zero pointed out in that picture above. It's said that the SEE wants to be the first among equals. I think it has more to do with their Ti PoLR, which makes me think of the description in Gulenko's book:

    He accepts existing hierarchy. He typically communicates either from a position from below, as a subordinate, or from a position from above, as a boss. With subordinates, there is no ceremony. He can’t stand to be near people who are antipathetic to
    him and does everything he can in order to get away from them. He does not know by what system he acts.
    I think SEEs have a pseudo-aristocracy that comes more from unawareness than anything else.

    https://wikisocion.github.io/en/inde...emocratic.html Here is the link to where I found the quotes on aristocracy.
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    My Gamma family is some kind of democracy, yeah...

    I get trash by my SEE dad because of his aggressiveness (unhealthy never grow up SEE), then he get trash by my ESI mom (my mom usually is very soft cargiver, but when she get angry it's a different story), then my mom get trash by me because how weak Te she is...

    Having two Se family member is troublesome, alot of shouting with aggressiveness to each other face. But no one actually try much to be the "boss", each care about their own life and hobby and doesn't care much about other's (cold as fuck)

    My dad is very tupid but not stupid enough to challenge my mom at her maximum rage.

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    Democracy in socionics means having ethics blocked with sensing and logic blocked with intution (gamma and alpha quadras). Democratic quadras tend to stablish horizontal relationship without hierarchies or stratified groups, while aristocratic quadras tend to establish close-knit groups with well defined hierarchy. It also means that aristocratics tend to define people first but the groups they belong to ("he is a leftie", "she is a commie") leaving individual differences last, while democratics tend to define people by their individual traits first ("he is a bastard", "she is a social worker") That is not to say that individually, a person might have leadership qualities, even if they belong a democratic quadra. The manner in which they will lead will be more "horizontal", or they might never refer themselves as the top dog or head honcho, while others follow the person. They can always lead with Te or Fe, which everyone is at least proficient with one of them.
    Last edited by roger557; 02-10-2022 at 05:41 PM.

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