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Thread: Manipulation on the suggestive function

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    Default Manipulation on the suggestive function

    Reinin in [one of] his book(s) says that duals can manipulate each other through direct suggestion from the leading function. I would say that we all are vulnerable to suggestion from society and people in general regarding our "suggestive" function, especially if we are not aware of it. I am conscious now of some instances where people
    tried to (consciously or not) manipulate me. This is strongly related to hypnosis. I don't know how aware are people about this but this is something that has caught my attention for some time, and it would be helpful to get some food for thought from other people.

    note: semiduals, activators, and other people that have our suggestive as a strong function can manipulate us in this regard.
    Last edited by Megatrop; 04-28-2020 at 12:12 PM.

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    IME, the suggestive influence works largely, as you said, unconsciously, and automatically. In duality, it is not purposeful manipulation, but a coming together of two people influencing each other back and forth, agreeing on goals and methods on a psychological level. It is meeting the other person with input that serves the other person best. Whereas in other relationships people try to manipulate another into goals and methods that to some extent is not what the other agrees with or feels natural at.

    I work as a chef for a temp agency. Sometimes I work with SLI chefs, and these moments are bliss. Everything runs smooth and tasks are easily distributed without a lot of discussion, often even without discussion at all. Not only during work, but also when taking breaks. thus the more private moments. If I were to summarize the nature of dual relationships, it would be that they are "let it be" relationships.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    IME, the suggestive influence works largely, as you said, unconsciously, and automatically. In duality, it is not purposeful manipulation, but a coming together of two people influencing each other back and forth, agreeing on goals and methods on a psychological level. It is meeting the other person with input that serves the other person best. Whereas in other relationships people try to manipulate another into goals and methods that to some extent is not what the other agrees with or feels natural at.
    Are you for real?

    You are totally out of touch with reality.

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    Anyone who thinks that a dual does not/cannot try to manipulate another into goals and methods and whatever that the other would not want to agree with etc etc, is crazy. Deluded by totally idealised duality bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Are you for real?

    You are totally out of touch with reality.
    Explain

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Are you for real?

    You are totally out of touch with reality.
    You have earned yourself a nice cozy spot on my ignore list. Bye!
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatrop View Post
    Reinin in [one of] his book(s) says that duals can manipulate each other through direct suggestion from the leading function. I would say that we all are vulnerable to suggestion from society and people in general regarding our "suggestive" function, especially if we are not aware of it. I am conscious now of some instances where people
    tried to (consciously or not) manipulate me. This is strongly related to hypnosis. I don't know how aware are people about this but this is something that has caught my attention for some time, and it would be helpful to get some food for thought from other people.

    note: semiduals, activators, and other people that have our suggestive as a strong function can manipulate us in this regard.
    Hypnosis is in many cases a formalized version of skills that have existed for a long time. Many people learn how to manipulate others without guides or books. There are different principles of human behavior and bugs in how the brain works that make it vulnerable to attack in many ways. Repetition, social pressure, and other tactics are some of the basics. Another is making someone have an idea and make them think they thought of it themselves. Manipulators love getting people to do their dirty work for them so they don't have to take the blame or the fall.

    Dual suggestion does work unconsciously, you're right. Duals consciously set unconscious goals for each other. This kind of manipulation is different from "manipulation." But duals can still manipulate each other in the bad way too.

    Reinin mentioned that it was easiest to manipulate a person through the suggestive function. The suggestive is the unconscious raw material from which the dominant function is formed. Because the suggestive is part of the super-id block, suggestions here will be egosyntonic ultimately, so they will still contribute to positive functioning, but can perhaps still limit a person and distort their view of reality. The hypnosis of society is regarded by at least one author I know of to be the most prevalent and most dangerous there is. Any hypnotist working to change beliefs has to overcome societal hypnosis to be successful.

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    People are manipulated when they don't think for themselves and it has nothing to do with some suggestive back-door. Most people, when they hold no sway, will try to manipulate to get their way and will use their knowledge of an individual to do it; some types are better at it than others. I would think that IEEs would be one of the types that would be better at it - and most certainly at recognizing manipulation.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    People are manipulated when they don't think for themselves and it has nothing to do with some suggestive back-door. Most people, when they hold no sway, will try to manipulate to get their way and will use their knowledge of an individual to do it; some types are better at it than others. I would think that IEEs would be one of the types that would be better at it - and most certainly at recognizing manipulation.......

    a.k.a. I/O
    NFs in general are probably the most skilled manipulators as far as I'm aware, and the most subtle. I disagree with your first sentence. The capacity to be manipulated though the suggestive function is probably one of the most basic parts of Socionics, hence why it's called the suggestive function, or suggestible. Thinking for yourself is a difficult thing to learn. Most critical thinking courses are not sufficient at all.

    One of the best ways to capture attempts at manipulation I know of involves learning how to observe yourself to such a degree that you start noticing changes in yourself very quickly. Once you notice a change in yourself, your thoughts or feelings, or sensations or intuitions, you can often run a trace and find the origin of the change. But the skill begins with noticing changes in yourself. And that begins usually by noticing your reactions. Self-observation is key. I once caught an ESI trying to do some goal setting for me that way. Once I let him know that I knew what he was trying to do, he suddenly became nervous and denied his attempt.

    People really want to believe that other people are stupid, especially people they don't like. Use that fact to your advantage. And they also want to believe that someone who doesn't know something will continue not knowing it. They often don't see that people progress in knowledge over time.

    People who manipulate others often don't understand that it's possible to manipulate yourself to get what you want. You don't really have to manipulate anyone else.
    Last edited by Aramas; 04-28-2020 at 02:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatrop View Post
    Explain
    Post #4.

    Yeah I can be harsh at pointing this out but I just find it really crazy when people idealise duality like this.

    Like, they are waiting for someone else to solve their problems magically and make the goddamn relationship work.

    Instead of looking into themselves and actually improving themselves for being able to do a long-term working relationship and not depending on others for their own part in the relationship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    People are manipulated when they don't think for themselves and it has nothing to do with some suggestive back-door. Most people, when they hold no sway, will try to manipulate to get their way and will use their knowledge of an individual to do it; some types are better at it than others. I would think that IEEs would be one of the types that would be better at it - and most certainly at recognizing manipulation.......
    Nah, even if you "think for yourself" you can get manipulated. This is more to do with boundaries than thinking for oneself, if you want to avoid being manipulated. Anyone can manipulate, not type dependent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    The hypnosis of society is regarded by at least one author I know of to be the most prevalent and most dangerous there is. Any hypnotist working to change beliefs has to overcome societal hypnosis to be successful.
    Frankly no one has ever been able to just out of the blue come up with a better picture of reality than what society collectively has possession of at a given moment. That doesn't mean it's the best possible picture of reality, just what we have right now. Like, good luck with randomly hitting upon some new and actually better approach to stuff. It's way more non-trivial than that, so complaining about society's picture of reality not working perfectly is pointless. This is not to say that you can't have your own opinions and stuff, and we are to improve on society's stuff continually, it's just that you can't make a real big change all that easily and all that fast that would actually work that much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Nah, even if you "think for yourself" you can get manipulated. This is more to do with boundaries than thinking for oneself, if you want to avoid being manipulated. Anyone can manipulate, not type dependent.




    Frankly no one has ever been able to just out of the blue come up with a better picture of reality than what society collectively has possession of at a given moment. That doesn't mean it's the best possible picture of reality, just what we have right now. Like, good luck with randomly hitting upon some new and actually better approach to stuff. It's way more non-trivial than that, so complaining about society's picture of reality not working perfectly is pointless. This is not to say that you can't have your own opinions and stuff, and we are to improve on society's stuff continually, it's just that you can't make a real big change all that easily and all that fast that would actually work that much better.
    You sound like an aristocrat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    You sound like an aristocrat.
    In Socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    In Socionics?
    Maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Maybe.
    Yeah its kinda an ST view

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    My net advice for this thread is to not worry too much about manipulation coming from others. Seek to know your true self and make that your lifelong goal. You'll learn how to see through other people, but that's just a result of your relationship with yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    ........ The capacity to be manipulated though the suggestive function is probably one of the most basic parts of Socionics, hence why it's called the suggestive function, or suggestible.....
    If that were true, I'm one who would be easily manipulated by those who make me feel comfortable, at ease, and a part of the group - that I would be quite susceptible to signs of emotional approval and displays of emotional warmth and friendliness because LIIs are supposed to act in accordance to the mood of others. I think that all people prefer good moods and welcoming environments, and I'm sure copies of every type can be manipulated by such behaviour; I just don't think that LIIs are more susceptible to this form of manipulation than are other types. However, since none of my comments are based on current Socionics models, I can see why you wouldn't agree with me......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    If that were true, I'm one who would be easily manipulated by those who make me feel comfortable, at ease, and a part of the group - that I would be quite susceptible to signs of emotional approval and displays of emotional warmth and friendliness because LIIs are supposed to act in accordance to the mood of others. I think that all people prefer good moods and welcoming environments, and I'm sure copies of every type can be manipulated by such behaviour; I just don't think that LIIs are more susceptible to this form of manipulation than are other types. However, since none of my comments are based on current Socionics models, I can see why you wouldn't agree with me......
    a.k.a. I/O
    When someone tries to make me more comfortable, I look around for the bottles of euthanasia gas. Really. There is an Alpha SF woman, probably ESE, who runs a lunchroom where I sometimes eat. She is so solicitous and cheerful, and she gives me the creeps.

    There is a scene in the The Space Merchants by Pohl & Kornbluth where the advertising hero is being held by a rival advertising firm which, when I first read it, resonated with me like a giant ringing bell.

    To set the scene, you should know that my Si-creative LSE mother took me to the dentist twice a year, and every visit required me to have my teeth drilled out.

    **************************************

    "The lock of the door rattled and rattled. They were coming for me.

    But when the door opened I saw from the floor not a forest of trousered legs but a single pair of matchstick ankles, nylon-clad.

    "I love you," said the strange, dead voice of a woman. "They said I would have to wait, but I couldn't wait." It was Hedy. She had her needle.

    I tried to cry for help, but my chest seemed paralyzed as she knelt beside me with shining eyes. The temperature of the room seemed to drop ten degrees. She clamped her bloodless lips on mine; they were like heated iron. And then I thought the left side of my face and head were being torn off. It lasted for seconds and blended into a red haze and unconsciousness.

    "Wake up," the dead voice was saying. "I want you. Wake up." Lightning smashed at my right elbow, and I cried out and jerked my arm. My arm moved—
    It moved.
    The bloodless lips descended on mine again, and again her needle ran into my jaw, probing exactly for the great lump of the trigeminal facial nerve, and finding it. I fought the red haze that was trying to swallow me up."

    *********************************

    So that's my view of Si.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-28-2020 at 04:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    When someone tries to make me more comfortable, I look around for the bottles of euthanasia gas. Really. There is an Alpha SF woman, probably ESE, who runs a lunchroom where I sometimes eat. She is so solicitous and cheerful, and she gives me the creeps.

    There is a scene in the The Space Merchants by Pohl & Kornbluth where the advertising hero is being held by a rival advertising firm which, when I first read it, resonated with me like a giant ringing bell.

    To set the scene, you should know that my Si-creative LSE mother took me to the dentist twice a year, and every visit required me to have my teeth drilled out.

    **************************************

    "The lock of the door rattled and rattled. They were coming for me.

    But when the door opened I saw from the floor not a forest of trousered legs but a single pair of matchstick ankles, nylon-clad.

    "I love you," said the strange, dead voice of a woman. "They said I would have to wait, but I couldn't wait." It was Hedy. She had her needle.

    I tried to cry for help, but my chest seemed paralyzed as she knelt beside me with shining eyes. The temperature of the room seemed to drop ten degrees. She clamped her bloodless lips on mine; they were like heated iron. And then I thought the left side of my face and head were being torn off. It lasted for seconds and blended into a red haze and unconsciousness.

    "Wake up," the dead voice was saying. "I want you. Wake up." Lightning smashed at my right elbow, and I cried out and jerked my arm. My arm moved—
    It moved.
    The bloodless lips descended on mine again, and again her needle ran into my jaw, probing exactly for the great lump of the trigeminal facial nerve, and finding it. I fought the red haze that was trying to swallow me up."

    *********************************

    So that's my view of Si.
    Sounds like Poison Ivy.

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    I’m not sure what’s meant by “manipulation”, but I do think people tend to become more conscious of the suggestive function with maturity.

    I’ve gotten along well with ESEs, for instance, for most of my life. But for most of that time I wouldn’t have noticed them or thought to pursue friendship (or romance, I suppose) with them outside of the time we happened to be together. They weren’t particularly interesting to me — not in the sense that they were boring, but that they seemed to exist in a different world, and we didn’t have much in common.

    I’m still not sure I’d like to marry an ESE, but I’ve come to be much more consciously pleased to talk or work with one. Maybe part of it is that I know Socionics, and so I think better of people I believe to be ESE than I perhaps would another type. But I personally think I’ve become more appreciative of them as I’ve generally just become more familiar to/accustomed with different perspectives besides my own.
    Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse. - Cervantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I’m not sure what’s meant by “manipulation”, but I do think people tend to become more conscious of the suggestive function with maturity.

    I’ve gotten along well with ESEs, for instance, for most of my life. But for most of that time I wouldn’t have noticed them or thought to pursue friendship (or romance, I suppose) with them outside of the time we happened to be together. They weren’t particularly interesting to me — not in the sense that they were boring, but that they seemed to exist in a different world, and we didn’t have much in common.

    I’m still not sure I’d like to marry an ESE, but I’ve come to be much more consciously pleased to talk or work with one. Maybe part of it is that I know Socionics, and so I think better of people I believe to be ESE than I perhaps would another type. But I personally think I’ve become more appreciative of them as I’ve generally just become more familiar to/accustomed with different perspectives besides my own.
    manipulation in the sense of controlling indirectly other peoples' behavior through subtle suggestions in the form of words, actions, impressions or general behavior. I have been susceptible to suggestion before and I also have manipulated other people, but the problem is that you should feel responsible for the consequences. And in many cases this is an immoral attitude.

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    in suggestive you are easier than on other fuctions trust to other people. in average
    this does not mean you can't control this to some degree or anyone may influence on you good just because does or says something in this region

    as you have the most of irrational sympathy and trust to duals and your suggestive is their most developed base function, those have the most influence on you there. in average, among types

    it's Augustinavichiute's mode A
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I think conflictors are way more likely to try to manipulate you using your dual seeking function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    If that were true, I'm one who would be easily manipulated by those who make me feel comfortable, at ease, and a part of the group - that I would be quite susceptible to signs of emotional approval and displays of emotional warmth and friendliness because LIIs are supposed to act in accordance to the mood of others. I think that all people prefer good moods and welcoming environments, and I'm sure copies of every type can be manipulated by such behaviour; I just don't think that LIIs are more susceptible to this form of manipulation than are other types. However, since none of my comments are based on current Socionics models, I can see why you wouldn't agree with me......
    Suggestive is more unconscious than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    My net advice for this thread is to not worry too much about manipulation coming from others. Seek to know your true self and make that your lifelong goal. You'll learn how to see through other people, but that's just a result of your relationship with yourself.
    Yeah, by developing boundaries based on your relationship with yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Suggestive is more unconscious than that.....
    Socionics should be about cognition. This type of data processing is not truly unconscious; it's just that some of the habitual stuff runs in the background. Now, manipulation often attacks the animalistic side (eg., self-preservation) but manipulation through suggestion has to to be an output from someone (not merely an IE), and the manipulative input that we receive has to be rationalized and that total process cannot be limited to one IE. Limiting the source of suggestive functioning of a type to one IE is a stretch - and manipulation an even bigger one......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Socionics should be about cognition. This type of data processing is not truly unconscious; it's just that some of the habitual stuff runs in the background. Now, manipulation often attacks the animalistic side (eg., self-preservation) but manipulation through suggestion has to to be an output from someone (not merely an IE), and the manipulative input that we receive has to be rationalized and that total process cannot be limited to one IE. Limiting the source of suggestive functioning of a type to one IE is a stretch - and manipulation an even bigger one......
    Sorry, it is close to being unconscious. If you are LII then yeah you've probably been manipulated by Fe inputs without ever noticing.

    I didn't limit anything to one IE.

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    @grumpyvic81 In your last sentence, you seem to imply that manipulation is not limited one IE but in the previous sentence, you say that I've been manipulated by one IE? Output cannot be produced without input of some sort so I certainly don't see Fe by itself producing suggestion and thus manipulation - although Socionics modelling does seem to erroneously propose that.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @grumpyvic81 In your last sentence, you seem to imply that manipulation is not limited one IE but in the previous sentence, you say that I've been manipulated by one IE? Output cannot be produced without input of some sort so I certainly don't see Fe by itself producing suggestion and thus manipulation - although Socionics modelling does seem to erroneously propose that.....
    who the fuck would interpret my words in such an idiotic way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megatrop View Post
    Reinin in [one of] his book(s) says that duals can manipulate each other through direct suggestion from the leading function. I would say that we all are vulnerable to suggestion from society and people in general regarding our "suggestive" function, especially if we are not aware of it. I am conscious now of some instances where people
    tried to (consciously or not) manipulate me. This is strongly related to hypnosis. I don't know how aware are people about this but this is something that has caught my attention for some time, and it would be helpful to get some food for thought from other people.

    note: semiduals, activators, and other people that have our suggestive as a strong function can manipulate us in this regard.
    Manipulate is probably not the right word. Maybe activate is a better word (like with activity relations you get activated on your hidden agenda which somehow makes u feel more alive and triggers you to action or something.)
    Manipulation is also more common in F types
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ ESTp ~ Self-Pres 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire Element ~ Aries Sign ~ Beta Quadra ~ Gryffindor House ~ Summer Season ~ SLUEN ~

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