Attacks on the Point of Least Resistance (PoLR)

[Lord Pixel]

It wasn’t the norm for me. Although I have seen other kids be bullied for being strange, different, whatever
I probably scared people just a little what with that sx 4...vibes
so they likely silently made fun of me if they did (everyone talks really poorly about others in like HS or college - it takes a while for people to grow up)

anyways. Um and I think when I was very little like elementary school some girls tried to bully me but I didn’t entirely “get it” at the time plus with girls they can be passive aggressive and sneaky. Anyways my parents intervened and said I should stay away from them.

point is no, bullying isn’t necessarily part of someone’s worldview or what they consider normal. And I was brought up in two different countries as a child, including moving every two years within country elementary and middle school. So I mean...yes I have been exposed to different situations and people and I’m not going to say they were all nice to me but bullying as norm is not part of my worldview.

Bullying isn't rare.

[Lord Pixel]

But the convo clearly wasn’t about rarity...you said that it is inherently part of se PoLR to be put off by “cowardly, weak” etc. and I get it, and I tried to explain to you that the reason bullies are such is bc they are doing something wrong and by norms I meant the second dimension in socionics IEs. 1D types have a notoriously difficult time accessing that or being assuaged by that. Hence the fear remains. Hence we see the world as colored by our (often negative) experiences with the PoLR and worldview does not change.

it’s not about whether bullying is rare it’s that considering everything can you have a more balanced perspective on things. But anyways I also don’t want to overstep since I do not know your personal experiences.

Normative perceptions on Se

–Safety - a must. Need to protect yourself, loved ones, your home, your home from attack.
–Attack - a necessity. Need to attack, to not attack you on the first (best defense - attack).
–Discipline - is required.
–Show wanton aggression - badly.<<<
–Need to eliminate the cause of the pressure.
–"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
–"Self comes first"
–Subordination of junior senior.
–"Who does not feed its own army will feed someone else."
–"Speed humps do not beat."
–No excess protection.
–The right of the owner - the owner of the rights to their territory.
–Brothers must protect and care (material) of each other.
–The husband has the right to his wife (wives accountability).
–A man must protect his wife (family).
–A man should be able to support his family.
–A real man does not show weakness.
–This man has to serve in the army.

This whole thing proves my point. Look at that list! To be a guy and deep down inside feel like you can't do that fuckin sucks! How the hell are you supposed to feel like a man?! You think because I'm 1D Se I don't think those exact same things? I do, I'm not so progressive to be completely removed from any kind of gender expectation. I see standards I want to live up to but deep down inside feel like I don't even have the capacity to. I don't see how fear of loud emotions, being late, being rejected, and what not compare to a feeling like you can't fulfill a basic life principle like " A man should protect his family." YES HE SHOULD! basic life rule, that I feel like I can't even fulfill for my own self. A burden I expect myself to lift but feel like is too heavy. And I don't want to have to be attracted to men or identify as something other than what I actually am to feel like I don't have to hate myself for being so incapable of living up to basic life principles.

[sbbds]

This whole thing proves my point. Look at that list! To be a guy and deep down inside feel like you can't do that fuckin sucks! How the hell are you supposed to feel like a man?! You think because I'm 1D Se I don't think those exact same things? I do, I'm not so progressive to be completely removed from any kind of gender expectation. I see standards I want to live up to but deep down inside feel like I don't even have the capacity to. I don't see how fear of loud emotions, being late, being rejected, and what not compare to a basic life principle like " A man should protect his family." YES HE SHOULD! basic life rule, that I feel like I can't even fulfill for my own self. A burden I expect myself to lift but feel like is too heavy. And I don't want to have to be attracted to men or identify as something other than what I actually am to feel like I don't have to hate myself for being so incapable of living up to basic life principles.

Out of curiosity why do you feel like you can’t do these things? I relate btw as an Fi polr, which makes me feel like “not a real woman” sometimes.

Do you really feel like you can’t do them or is it mostly insecurity?

[Lord Pixel]

Out of curiosity why do you feel like you can’t do these things? I relate btw as an Fi polr, which makes me feel like “not a real woman” sometimes.

Do you really feel like you can’t do them or is it mostly insecurity?

I feel like I don't know, so yes an insecurity. And I feel like it seems over my head, and just having fear of something I feel like I should do, feels like a fear I shouldn't have and only a coward would have. These things, whenever they are talked about anywhere, conversation, TV, media, whatever, are always talked about in confidence. The lack of confidence concerns the hell out of me, because if I was ever in the situation I don't know if I could do what I had to.

[Lord Pixel]

Se norms dictate that wanton is aggression is “wrong” therefore most se types unlikely to behave that way, therefore, against norms. Se doesn’t equal bullying neither se PoLR equals being left to fight in literal life or death, per se. It depends on the associations one personally assigns to their PoLR based on their own experiences. Usually negative with PoLR obviously.

Don't know where I said Se equals bullying or Se PoLR means you have to fight for you life.

I did say though that bullying is normal/common/frequent/happens often, it's not rare, not unusual, or an anomaly, probably happens more than you think, and that Se PoLR can make someone feel like if they ever had to fight they would get trampled on, hence feeling like you can't protect yourself, or keep you or other people around you safe if your life did ever God forbid depend on it. But then again I am a boy and life expects that from me, I expect that from me, and I feel like I couldn't do it if I had to, hence feeling weak and cowardly and like alot of things people say you shouldn't be.

Does society unanimously give someone with Ni/Ne/Te/Fi/Fe PoLR a hard time? Do they say "these traits are looked down upon". I can't think of a clear one word example to "condemn" anyone for those PoLRs except maybe asshole for Fi PoLR and like I said someone with that wouldn't care anyway, they have the super power of unfeeling. But life does not like a coward, pussy, bitch, wimp, whatever, there's enough words to make you feel like shit for having the PoLR, like you don't feel that way already without the help of someone else reminding you, and the worst part is I don't disagree with the world on this one. Being a coward is not ever good or ok by anyone's standards, even the coward's, and feeling like you are deep down what the world around you and you yourself condemn is not a good experience. Hating yourself starts to feel like progress when you feel that way.

[sbbds]

Don't know where I said Se equals bullying or Se PoLR means you have to fight for you life.

I did say though that bullying is normal/common/frequent/happens often, it's not rare, not unusual, or an anomaly, probably happens more than you think, and that Se PoLR can make someone feel like if they ever had to fight they would get trampled on, hence feeling like you can't protect yourself, or keep you or other people around you safe if your life did ever God forbid depend on it. But then again I am a boy and life expects that from me, I expect that from me, and I feel like I couldn't do it if I had to, hence feeling weak and cowardly and like alot of things people say you shouldn't be.

Does society unanimously give someone with Ni/Ne/Te/Fi/Fe PoLR a hard time? Do they say "these traits are looked down upon". I can't think of a clear one word example to "condemn" anyone for those PoLRs except maybe asshole for Fi PoLR and like I said someone with that wouldn't care anyway, they have the super power of unfeeling. But life does not like a coward, pussy, bitch, wimp, whatever, there's enough words to make you feel like shit for having the PoLR, like you don't feel that way already without the help of someone else reminding you, and the worst part is I don't disagree with the world on this one. Being a coward is not ever good or ok by anyone's standards, even the coward's, and feeling like you are deep down what the world around you and other's condemn is not a good experience. Self hate starts feeling like progress when you feel that way.

Sorry to reply to your sincere, thorough posts in here with one-liners but while I feel for you (just a lil bit cuz I’m an Fi polr demon lol), I also think everyone subjectively feels their polr is this way.

[Lord Pixel]

you seemed to have not understood what I meant by norms which is why I corrected it. And generally it seems everything I said was never really understood.

IMHO you do catastrophize because you equate being se PoLR as being somehow worse than other polrs (it’s not), which you have repeatedly qualified by “se PoLR literally means you aren’t able to defend yourself in physical life or death, this is so much worse than other polrs) but I disagree IEs are pretty universal and part of almost every single experience.

anyways hope that makes it somewhat clearer.

if you’re indeed se PoLR, the nature of the 1D function makes it difficult to get out of the negative state of mind, which is why o brought up norms. Which is why I brought up bullying is “wrong” because in my case at least I almost could not fully understand how what I had been put through was wrong and I was just supposed to deal with it because “the world is like that” and it seriously messed me up at the time.

and then I realized the reason was that the norms just weren’t registering like they would to anyone with at least 2D access to the element; which would help them protect themselves misuse of it.

I think what you mean by normal is, bullying is not "healthy" when you said normal. It's not normal healthy behavior. And when I said bullying is normal I mean normal as in common, happens often, regardless if it's healthy or good or bad.

I think it hurts to have this PoLR more than other PoLRs yes. Why do I think this? Because the risks are worse than other PoLRs. There's no life or death (at least at the hand of an attacker) with other PoLRs. And I don't think it means you can't defend yourself, it means you don't believe you can and live in fear that you can't. Is it actually worse to have? Idk, I'd argue in reality Si is probably the worst to actually have, but it definitely feels horrible and yes I think it feels worse especially since you get unanimously insulted for it like it's a plague one should never have, which is something I actually agree with that. I think the experience of having this PoLR is worse than having others, not that this PoLR is actually worse than other's if that makes sense. Walking around feeling weak and crushable I think is worse than fear of loud emotions/being rejected/not seeing something from multiple angles or whatever.

[Lord Pixel]

I know what you mean but it was a misread. I used the word "norms" specifically in my original post where this misunderstanding originated. And I say this because I have read a couple of Russian socionics articles on this and nothing I have said here is new info; it's directly from those sources.

So I wasn't really talking about how common bullying is, I was saying that hey, maybe your 1D Se makes you focus on the negative side of Se, which in a way you might end up conflating with Se. I mean, we are intelligent so we understand that's not all there is to Se, but when we think of Se, we think of those anxiety-provoking scenarios without much ability to assuage ourselves - and if someone tells you "hey this is actually wrong that someone bullied you," you actually won't feel better! Because the norms don't help out the PoLR. At least according to that article.


I would hope most humans do not want to attack someone and put them in a life or death situation, so that is indeed rare.

As for Se insults, I hear you, you said that being a guy, the word "coward" might hit you worse. But the thing is - and I don't need to say this because socionics says this a million times - your dual, or heck even just people who are good for you, appreciate you for exactly who you are. I doubt they would think of you as less manly or anything like that.

The only reason bullying came up is because you said it's not normal for someone to harm someone they think is weak(my guess is you meant not healty or ok to do that), I thought you meant it's not common since you said the word normal and that's not true because bullies hurt weaker people all the time, hence why I said bullying is normal/common. So yea I misunderstood you and I get what you mean now. My entire point with bullying is that is happens often.

I'm not talking about Se as a whole function. I'm talking about the fears of Se PoLR. I'm not even talking about Se types. I'm talking about how Se PoLR makes me feel weak. Not Se types, not negative sides of Se, but how feeling like I have no Se makes me feel completely powerless.

Yes life or death "fights" are rare, yes I have an extreme view of a PoLR. And I think this extreme view is worse to have than other PoLRs, it makes me feel like at the end of the day I could fucking DIE because of it, and there's nothing to stop that from happening not even me because I can't protect myself. Tell me how fear of Ni or Fi or Ti or Te or whatever is the same? Deep down the core fear is I can't protect myself from getting killed, if someone wanted to they could do it easily, I feel like I could drop and break if someone decided to push me and that SUCKS! An over paranoid glass on a wobbly table, hoping nobody tips it over, but can't do anything to stop them. Yes! An extreme view! Maybe Fi PoLR deep down feels like they can't be loved, and that definitely sounds like it sucks and is no life to live, maybe Fe PoLR deep down feels like they can't express how they really feel to their loved ones, who knows, and deep down that sounds like it sucks too, but when weighing the fears, one fears for their life while the other's don't! Except maybe Si.

[Lord Pixel]

I mean this is kind of repetitive now, but like I said before, this is called catastrophization. Anxiety usually begins with something legitimate but evolves into an exaggerated fear of something not very likely to happen, and then you fixate...imagine it...and yes of course that you could be in that situation is real, but is it worth psyching yourself out over? Also no one wants to be in a life or death situation, that would scare anymore. Regardless of whatever PoLR may or may not be involved. Yes, they will get traumatized.

Honestly, try logging this into a thought record sheet. Use the Cognitive Distortions list and enter which ones you are using somewhere in there.

and here maybe these might be useful:
http://socionicasys.org/biblioteka/s...cii-ne-slabyje
http://socionicasys.org/biblioteka/s...ovanie-strahov
http://socionicasys.org/biblioteka/s...samonabludenij

Is the fear reasonable? Is any PoLR fear reasonable?

My point? This unreasonable fear is the worst to have considering at its core it involves losing your life, at the hand of someone else, and being completely helpless to stop it.

[sbbds]

I don't know LP, I think you don't need to be Se PoLR to be vulnerable to that. I am not sure why you keep equating it with Se PoLR. Literally anybody could physically overpower you and kill you, even if you are Se ego.

While this is technically very true, I want to mention that I do have confidence in myself that this would be very difficult or unlikely to happen. I personally do literally feel more strong/capable than the average person in this regard, and I’d imagine other Se egos do too.

Generally people do have at least a few valid reasons for feeling the way they do. LP has stated that some events did influence his paranoia. I mean, he’s been physically attacked before and has seen violence on others and has felt like his life has been in danger because of it. Have you ever experienced that? Idk if a thought record sheet is gonna help.

[sbbds]

I mean, technically females tend to strength wise - less strong than men right? So I would imagine even an Se ego female. Or an Se ego who is just young and dealing with someone just physically bigger than them. Or even just generally, if you were threatened with a weapon for example.

Don’t need much strength to kill or maim, just enough speed and aim to break the skin at certain places and timing and reserve. I have the same average height and muscle mass as the average man where I live though.

And perhaps LP has prior experiences, which is why I recommended the thought record sheet because he doesn't need to necessarily share it with anyone if he doesn't want but CBT helps you see something in a more balanced way, considering rationale both for and against something.

That’s a nice thought. Have you had good success with CBT before?