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Thread: Advice for a job - ISFp/ISFj

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    Default Advice for a job - ISFp/ISFj

    What would be some good college majors/jobs for ESI/SEI? What about chemistry?
    My career test gave me jobs like radiologic technologist,biologist, optician (don't quote) and I failed at engineering

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    You might find Holland codes worth looking into. There's some data into correlations here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1134336

    As a possible EII or LII, when I looked into Holland codes, it seemed that "Conventional" generally suited me best, that "Enterprising" would be an absolute no-no and probably also "Realistic", and that "Social" and "Artistic" might be problematic or at least situational. The sixth, "Investigative" does not seem to be ascribed to a whole host of professions...but otherwise, I'm best described as IC or ICSARE in that order: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1122621

    I say all this because it might be helpful to you generally!, and because you might shake your head at a test if it gives you "Conventional".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You might find Holland codes worth looking into. There's some data into correlations here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1134336

    As a possible EII or LII, when I looked into Holland codes, it seemed that "Conventional" generally suited me best, that "Enterprising" would be an absolute no-no and probably also "Realistic", and that "Social" and "Artistic" might be problematic or at least situational. The sixth, "Investigative" does not seem to be ascribed to a whole host of professions...but otherwise, I'm best described as IC or ICSARE in that order: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1122621

    I say all this because it might be helpful to you generally!, and because you might shake your head at a test if it gives you "Conventional".
    Thanks, but I don’t really find the Holland code as accurate because they can be manipulated based on what you are biased towards (unconsciously) and can change. Like right now everyone wants a stem or business job, so that’s what you may be interested in and get, but doesn’t really say if it’s the right fit/ my code was CIS the last time I took it, but before I had gotten something like IR I think

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    I had a dear friend who got a degree in psychology, majored in social sciences and somehow got advised to become a radiology assistant and started studying for that and would be offered jobs behind a desk which she did for some time... in the end she was hella bored of that. In the meanwhile it had been 5+ years she was working in the weekends in the flea markets, selling the home-made honey of a little farm of a friend. She loved it, she never realized how much. In the end her honey friend offered her to start selling honey full time and be responsible for the sales, she accepted right away. In her words " I never noticed how uplifting it was to be in contact with people, I always thought my ideal job would be in an office behind a desk but having tried that, I came to appreciate the flea market atmosphere so much!" She was happy. She is some Infx but who cares

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moou View Post
    What would be some good college majors/jobs for ESI/SEI? What about chemistry?
    My career test gave me jobs like radiologic technologist,biologist, optician (don't quote) and I failed at engineering
    Chemistry is basically NT territory, so it is a bad idea. For ESI or SEI one could recommend laboratory assistant or something less scientific if they are interested in chemistry.

    ESI can be successful in lots of jobs, so it is hard to recommend anything special. A lot different with SEI though.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    I remember one ESI psychologist, lol. I could see her doing standardized tests or social role. All I can say that stepping out of fixed lines of interpretation was either matter of belief or learnt practice. This is not about making comments of her capabilities but type gives some hints regarding in the moment adaptability.

    So I advice staying out of places that requires lots of interpretation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moou View Post
    What would be some good college majors/jobs for ESI/SEI? What about chemistry?
    After majoring in that have agree with @Tallmo here. Chemistry is not only an NT territory, it's an Alpha NT field, so probably not so great for application of ESI's natural strengths but would be fine for SEI. One of my workplaces I was hired by an SEI, whose boss was an ILE, who was hired by an LII, who was in collaboration with yet another ILE. There was an ILE coming in to repair the instruments, an LSE and ESE worked across the bench as technical support, and a portrait of our glorious ILE-Ne leader who won Nobel Prize in chemistry hanging over the door. I'm kidding about that last part, but that ILE-Ne nobel prize winning guy would smoke pot incessantly. It's a field where valuing Si/Ne gives you certain advantages, but a rocky path for an ESI.

    Another issue with chemistry major is that you'll be tied to living in certain cities/locales in the US, not every town has a lab, whereas if you major in something pertaining to medicine or administration there's a lot more flexibility to where you can get hired.

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    My mother studied chemistry with help from my ILE dad to get through the more difficult parts. She never really made a career in it, mostly ended up as a stay at home mom. She seemed to enjoy correcting chemistry entrance exams for the university as a temporary job every year. So probably not the worst academic choice for SEI but many might enjoy a more social and practical job such a midwife or nurse (SEI I know loves her job as midwife).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I had a dear friend who got a degree in psychology, majored in social sciences and somehow got advised to become a radiology assistant and started studying for that and would be offered jobs behind a desk which she did for some time... in the end she was hella bored of that. In the meanwhile it had been 5+ years she was working in the weekends in the flea markets, selling the home-made honey of a little farm of a friend. She loved it, she never realized how much. In the end her honey friend offered her to start selling honey full time and be responsible for the sales, she accepted right away. In her words " I never noticed how uplifting it was to be in contact with people, I always thought my ideal job would be in an office behind a desk but having tried that, I came to appreciate the flea market atmosphere so much!" She was happy. She is some Infx but who cares
    It's cool when people find things to do that actually make them happy.

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    I have seen LSI's doing chemistry. Especially the literal garden variety might appeal to them in their youth.

    Some random IEI's and SEI's have been there.

    That is the manipulation of structural data what makes it easy or hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    After majoring in that have agree with @Tallmo here. Chemistry is not only an NT territory, it's an Alpha NT field, so probably not so great for application of ESI's natural strengths but would be fine for SEI. One of my workplaces I was hired by an SEI, whose boss was an ILE, who was hired by an LII, who was in collaboration with yet another ILE. There was an ILE coming in to repair the instruments, an LSE and ESE worked across the bench as technical support, and a portrait of our glorious ILE-Ne leader who won Nobel Prize in chemistry hanging over the door. I'm kidding about that last part, but that ILE-Ne nobel prize winning guy would smoke pot incessantly. It's a field where valuing Si/Ne gives you certain advantages, but a rocky path for an ESI.

    Another issue with chemistry major is that you'll be tied to living in certain cities/locales in the US, not every town has a lab, whereas if you major in something pertaining to medicine or administration there's a lot more flexibility to where you can get hired.
    A chemistry major could result in an education job too. What do you recommend for Ne creatives?

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    Darn yes chemist was low on my job results, I liked chemistry though and I have some credits. I guess most of the other careers were too low income or didnt even require a degree

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moou View Post
    Darn yes chemist was low on my job results, I liked chemistry though and I have some credits. I guess most of the other careers were too low income or didnt even require a degree
    I should have majored in chemistry lol

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    Funny how 'biology' keeps popping up with SEIs.

    Dietitian/nutritionist, dermatologist and veterinarian are the first to come to mind for SEIs, but I may be biased. Maybe chiropractor.

    I’d stay away from psychology. SEIs can be good psychologists but it comes with age with them not as a ready-to-go skill at early 20s when you get your degree.
    Then you have the traditionals for SF club: languages, graphic design, etc.

    Really motivated and talented SEIs would be: art curators, art museum directors, art academy owners, art critics, artists. The kind of positions that are a dime in a dozen and not really worth thinking about.
    Last edited by Rusal; 03-07-2020 at 12:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    Funny how 'biology' keeps popping up with SEIs.

    Dietitian/nutritionist, dermatologist and veterinarian are the first to come to mind for SEIs, but I may be biased. Maybe chiropractor.

    I’d stay away from psychology. SEIs can be good psychologists but it comes with age with them not as a ready-to-go skill at early 20s when you get your degree.
    Then you have the traditionals for SF club: languages, graphic design, etc.

    Really motivated and talented SEIs would be: art curators, art museum directors, art academy owners, art critics, artists. The kind of positions that are a dime in a dozen and not really worth thinking about.
    Yeah I noticed they were pretty similar. I found filatova’s list of careers for ESI, couldn’t find any others though

    Career Possibilities:
    • Retail Sales / Fashion Merchandiser
    • Family Physician / Pediatrician / Nurse / Radiological Technologist / Dental Hygienist / Physical Therapist
    • Hotel Management
    • Dietitian
    • Librarian / Archivist
    • Social Worker
    • K-12 Teacher
    • Designer / Interior Decorator
    • Minister / Priest / Religious Educator
    • Paralegal
    • Naturalist / Research Assistant
    • Artist / Musician
    • Administrative Assistant / Clerical Supervisor
    • Guard / Corrections Officer
    • Forrest Ranger

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    I’ll break from the majority advice. There’s an ESI chemistry professor at my university. He has a doctorate, so I presume he’s good at his job, and he seems to be liked by students. And he seems to like his job.

    Since you seem to be considering chemistry, don’t let type stereotypes put you off. F doesn’t mean you’re stupid and can’t do chem. It’s a cliche, but you’ve only got one life, so make the most of your opportunities.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας...

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    I'm an SEE in pharmacy, and my first two years are intensive chemistry courses. There's definitely a big chunk of NTs in my classes who dominate answering questions and just generally getting the hang of the material right there and then in the lecture hall. So far, though, despite it not 'clickling' for me the way it seems to for the NTs, the only challenge I've had to really deal with was the fact that there's just a lot more material to go through compared to high school, but that seems like something most everyone faces, despite which field of study they choose. My point is, I agree with FP ^. If chemistry is what you see yourself doing, if you like the challenge it poses (because that's one of my reasons for picking pharmacy lol), if you think or even know that you'd be good at it, go for it. There's no use picking a "safe" option, socionically speaking, because such a thing does not exist -- it has not been proven, just correlated. But I also couldn't do engineering... Nope. No way. So there is truth to it.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Most jobs commonly recommended for SEIs are false. You can't recommend biology or nutritionist to someone who clearly lacks the cognitive strengths for these fields.

    SEIs can be interested in biology or nutrition careers because it is distantly related to Si, but there is no actual use of Si in these fields.

    Actual use of Si happens in some forms of art, or crafts or where you touch someone.

    One should be very careful not to confuse a loose association to Si with actual use. Actual use of base function is what matters in a job. (Unless one wants the job to be an uphill battle).

    For types like SEI it is really hard to find suitable jobs, but then one should say explicitly that the jobs recommended don't match with the strengths of a SEI, but that they might be interesting anyway.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    ESIs seem to do very well in support positions that are not under the gun or under close scrutiny; they can apply themselves to most disciplines but tend to be stress averse. SEIs seem to do well in in careers where winging it is a requirement but planning isn't.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I see a lot of ESI-Fi's in banking.

    My best ESI friend from HS was a teller in his father's bank.
    I once walked into a bank in a random city needing help deciphering a thirty page loan application and an ESI loan officer cut straight to the important points.
    I just had someone try to pass a check in my name, and the ESI teller at my bank caught it because she noticed that the signature was different from mine, and she called me about it.
    I also know an ESI-Fi who was into fashion sales for a while, but she's a teller in a bank now because the hours better fit her job of raising a kid.

    Great attention to detail, great ability to see what is in front of them for what it is, and the desire and willingness to rid the world of all moral problems. Stratiyevskaya's description of ISFj's is spot-on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I see a lot of ESI-Fi's in banking.

    My best ESI friend from HS was a teller in his father's bank.
    I once walked into a bank in a random city needing help deciphering a thirty page loan application and an ESI loan officer cut straight to the important points.
    I just had someone try to pass a check in my name, and the ESI teller at my bank caught it because she noticed that the signature was different from mine, and she called me about it.
    I also know an ESI-Fi who was into fashion sales for a while, but she's a teller in a bank now because the hours better fit her job of raising a kid.

    Great attention to detail, great ability to see what is in front of them for what it is, and the desire and willingness to rid the world of all moral problems. Stratiyevskaya's description of ISFj's is spot-on.
    I sound pretty ESI from reading this... Are we duals Adam.

    I work in banking too (teller and sales/service otherwise known as a Universal Banker) and I always get eerily accurate gut instincts about the people in front of me whether for better or worse. The more I analyze and observe them, the more it justifies that initial instinct I got.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Most jobs commonly recommended for SEIs are false. You can't recommend biology or nutritionist to someone who clearly lacks the cognitive strengths for these fields.

    SEIs can be interested in biology or nutrition careers because it is distantly related to Si, but there is no actual use of Si in these fields.
    When I recommended those jobs I assumed the Si-related interest but of course I picked the reasonably profitable ones. You'll still have to eat up those nutritious books like every other student and apply yourself, that's a given. What would you have me recommend with Si? A yoga instructor? One of my biggest regrets was having to drop out of school due to time constraints for my second career when I was going for that degree in nutrition.

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    I work in bank compliance, and it sounds Fi at face value to like monitor the rest of the bank to make sure they don't fuck people over, but I've said before it's maybe Ti. Has to do with detailed federal regulations, not personal judgement. And only interactions with humans is cooperation with coworkers.

    Edit: I like it but didn't recommend it even though I'm mostly typed ESI, because based on your test we have different interests, and I think that's more relevant.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    When I recommended those jobs I assumed the Si-related interest but of course I picked the reasonably profitable ones. You'll still have to eat up those nutritious books like every other student and apply yourself, that's a given. What would you have me recommend with Si? A yoga instructor? One of my biggest regrets was having to drop out of school due to time constraints for my second career when I was going for that degree in nutrition.
    If a SEI goes for a career in nutrition it means working in weak functions for the rest of their lives. That's ok in a way, because most SEIs have to work in weak functions anyway, but one should be open about that if recommending such a career. The standard thing to do is to recommend a career where the person gets to work in strong ego functions, like entrepreneur for LIE and teacher for EIE etc. That's the ideal. But that's hard to do to a SEI because his ego functions are mostly useless in the job market.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    If a SEI goes for a career in nutrition it means working in weak functions for the rest of their lives...
    Perhaps I've got used to it so I don't see it as a big issue. Socionics is not great when it comes to professions either.

    Back to the issue, when someone asks about possible professions I take it as a question of a fitting career plus a decent level of income. Now it’s likely that an ISFp would feel very realized working as a tourist guide in Tuscany taking people wine tasting, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. I simply referred to professions that contained enough Si-related themes that would make up for any semester or two where you’d have to endure mathematics o biophysics. Which, btw, I take it as something that happens to everybody in college: “what’s this bummer doing in my core curriculum?”. Histology, embryology, anatomy, nutrition I, psychosocial theory were also part of the first year course and I found them very interesting.

    I’d be more worried about a young SEI lacking the proper guidance to choose the right profession, stay on the right path and be consistant, tbh.
    Last edited by Rusal; 03-13-2020 at 10:15 PM.

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    If you want some actual sketches of types jobs Gulenko has book. I must say the following: mistyping happens so if you truly ace or like chemistry then go for it. There are cases where a BSc chemist became a nurse so we can only guess if she found her true preference later.


    Anyway the most drab existence exists for inital subs at common work environment where the terminals will carry boring stuff and helps rest of the society survive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    ...
    I generally agree with you on the jobs with the focus on Sensing. I'd add dermatologist, chiropractor, massotherapist and physiotherapist to the caretaker list. Perhaps speech therapist also.

    I’m not sure about policeman, though. If it’s something public servant I’d go maybe with forensics ballistc expert over street patrolling (don't know if this applies for ESIs)

    I always smile when I see ‘cook’ as a suggestion. It must be a very special kind of cooking because I can’t imagine an SEI in a hot kitchen at the busiest hour. I can but it’s not a nice picture.
    Last edited by Rusal; 03-14-2020 at 08:35 AM.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    Socionics is not great when it comes to professions either.
    No? I think it's pretty accurate, at least when I make my own observations of how people use their strengths in different jobs.


    Now it’s likely that an ISFp would feel very realized working as a tourist guide in Tuscany taking people wine tasting, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
    I have to disagree again. That work would involve minimal Si and mostly extraverted social skills, talking etc. An ESE might enjoy it though.

    I simply referred to professions that contained enough Si-related themes that would make up for any semester or two where you’d have to endure mathematics o biophysics.
    I understand. But after enduring the education one has to endure the job also. That's why choosing a job based on Si thematics can be a big mistake, if the actual job involves mostly other cognitive skills that the SEI is not good at.

    Jobs with Si related themes can be attractive for ILEs for example. They have the skills to handle the actual work, and then the Si theme becomes a nice flavor to keep them interested.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    No? I think it's pretty accurate, at least when I make my own observations of how people use their strengths in different jobs.
    This is becoming a Byzantine discussion and it needn't be.

    You said “cooking” involves more than . You shoot down many jobs because they involve more than that IE and now a professions list that has ‘cook’ in it is good? The possibility of being in a standing position for hours in a hot restaurant kitchen does not contradict how you view Si? For many SEIs it’s easier to internalize and implement moderate Thinking in another type of job than going through that hell every day of their lives.

    Being a tourist guide too is actually better than the also included ‘teacher’. The latter involves repetitive work and oftentimes being in control of a big group of youngsters. The former is enjoyable, you get to meet new people everyday so things are kept socially light (the SEI way) and you provide them with a good experience (also SEI) while also enjoying the sights, the sun and the wine yourself. How do you pick up the social skills if you aren’t the best at that? The same way a very inspired EIE has to pick up the pedagogy of teaching nonetheless: you go to school. (Gee, even if you’re an informally educated guide, it takes less than an hour to figure out a way to deal with people).
    As it is with nutrition: you need to ‘be good’ at the job? This is what is actually taught during the last year of the study plan (at least where I live).

    Tallmo, I think the way you’re going about this is a bit off. I can materialize the list provided for SEIs and object every option given the way you do. My understanding is that there’ll always be some adaptation you’ll have to go through. But the same is true for other types.

  30. #30
    Seed my wickedness Existential Ibuprofen's Avatar
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    ESI
    Recommended occupations: The social sphere, areas that require interaction with people. Tedious work with physical component that requires focus and concentration, such as medicine and health (especially applied fields: dentistry, massage, working nurse, acupuncture, physical therapy, X-ray, biochemical diagnostics). Service and commodities sector: accounting, bookkeeping, seller and cashier.
    SEI
    Recommended occupations: The Mediator best realizes himself in the social sphere. He is well capable of establishing and maintaining beneficial business contacts. Successful in spheres where he needs to look out for needs of a specific individual. SEI is a specialist in creating and maintaining the infrastructure of society. He is the best supplier, trader of small wholesale, director of a small company, the manager-diplomat. Mediators work well in advertising and publishing, medical and service spheres. They make good quality evaluators, designers, and organizers.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

  31. #31
    Moou's Avatar
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    Thanks for the help again . I just want to expand a little on the top scales. One thing I noticed is most of the jobs recommended to me were "Realistic" in them (holland code). They were Farmer/rancher, Optician, Radiologic tech, Biologist, EMT, Military enlisted, Auto mechanic, Translator, Customer service rep. From the career test. Chemist was very low. I ended up getting my chemistry degree but have zero interest in continuing, also did not enjoy labwork. I am thinking about taking an environmental field job as a hazardous waste technician. Does this seem close enough? I'm a little worried it wasn't on the career test but wondering if it seems similar enough to enjoy?

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    All jobs suck really. So just find something that sucks the least, but if you have Te polr especially I think most jobs are going to be highly annoying lolol. I'm not going to sugar coat anything... if you have low 1D Te but it's dual seeking, you will probably fit in the working world a lot better.

    As an IEI tho I did best when I had management power over others and I smoothed conflicts over or something, I was bad when people expected me to solve too many logical/technical/'real' problems. I kinda clashed a bit with both male and female LSEs who were like 'Eww you're a man, aren't you supposed to be good at this?' (speaking of something really ST or NT they wanted me to do)

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    Maybe an architect? It's quite difficult to learn it, but I've heard it is pretty fulfilling. With the "spatial" knowledge these types have I feel like they could do well there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moou View Post
    What about chemistry?
    NT region. more Ti
    so harder and not so pleasant for ISFJ

    the job is better to not have in weak nonvalued regions
    manual work with not much of thinking is easier for SF: simple trading, technician, etc

    P.S. take into account that there are many mistakes in own types
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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