Do tellOriginally Posted by consentingadult
Do tell
In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.
In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.
If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.
Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).
Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.
The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:
Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.
A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:
"I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"
Last edited by consentingadult; 02-28-2020 at 08:00 AM.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
God this is so accurate with this scum bag LIE I know.. Good write up. They play on these stupid technicalities and peoples morals. So that's true that you don't explain anything to them, unless you want to have a circular conversation where they will find a new excuse for each reason you come up with. The trick is to just keep bluntly repeating what you're saying in a matter of fact way. Thankfully for me I am se base and fi polr, so I just pressure them and they usually cave and fuck off.
A lot get nervous at the threat of physical force. mind you this all needs to be immediate pressuring, over the phone or computer means nothing to them. You gotta be in their face and then you can see their weak sensing and how insecure most are about it (Pathetic se ha).
No offense to any LIE's here. This is pertaining to bad ones. I know an LIE guy who's a great dude and very friendly and doesn't screw anyone over.
Makes sense ESI is their dual. Someone retardedly rigid in ethics who will forcefully push them onto the LIE with volitional pressuring, they're defenseless against a successful volitional pressurer who has a similar mentality towards things. Look at how Elizabeth Warren made Bloomberg look like a clown in the Vegas Debate. She's ESI He's LIE.
Last edited by kingslayer; 02-28-2020 at 04:15 PM.
That's the big difference between SxEs and LIEs: SxEs know how to dose Se, when an LIE uses Se, they too soon do too much of it. Now this might work on people who are in some way dependent on them, but otherwise it is a sign to stay away from them.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
SEEs usually dangle the carrot before they use the Se. And yes, I mean that in multiple ways.
When they do it to an se base (they usually dont) it's an act of war
And don't mistake weak Se for an inability to successfully beat dat ass. lol One of the problems with weak Se is an inability to properly discern how much kinetic pressure/force/power is necessary to impact an object/move it through space. The mobilizing function is a wonky one; it can be used too little or too much. And particularly in cases of immediate danger, matters of life or death, etc..., do not underestimate an EXNjs ability to turn all the way up, and if anything, go TOO far. I'm rather aware of my weak Se, which is why my mentality is to utterly annihilate the enemy so that they can never come back. If you're going to get the jump on LIE, there needs an unorthodox, heavy, relentless onslaught. And be properly prepared for the 10 other SLE goons we hired for back up; it's a very John McClane Vs. Hans Gruber kinda deal. lol
Of course not, that's not what I mean by physical pressuring. I'm not gonna fist fight someone at work right? Especially an LIE who will jump the first chance to sue you if you do so. they simply can't react quick enough to physical dominance over them in the instinctual sense. you do it enough to anyone, they become intimidated. SLE is the general for a reason
The best fighter I know is an EIE. He can probably beat me in 1 v 1. but I can still pressure him into doing what I want most times as long as I let him feel a sense of control over the group
Actually, I know a chef from a large conference center that has been verbal abusive towards me at several occasions, of which I suspect he is LIE (this guy had a reputation for being verbally abusive). I had already made it a point with the management over there that if this behavior didn't stop, I would not go there anymore. So they talked to him, he behaved for a little while, then one day started again, and I let that organization and the agency I work for know that it was my last day over there. That was 2014.
Recently my agency inquired if I am still not available to that organization. I said (and I have said it before) that if I were to go and this chef would show one sign of bad attitude towards me, I would grab a metal food container and beat the shit out of him, and that this was a promise. And I would: if nothing else works, then I will use physical violence in order to set clear boundaries. Some people behaviors are caused by them assuming that people usually do not resort to violence. In that sense I am like the eagle in the Great Seal of the US: an olive branch in one claw, arrows in the other, facing in the direction of the olive branch but not afraid to use the arrows if people are immune to reason, and a handful of people have learned what that means ;-) But obviously I'm not going to allow other people to put me into a situation where I might have to resort to violence. Working there is not worth such problems.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Definitely not IEE.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
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OMG YES all of this !
Are you IEE? Theoretically, this only really makes sense with certain types of IR because there are different degrees of cognitive armament/disarmament depending on IR. For example, ESI may be able to recognize LIE's less desirable behaviors but evidently they don't have the natural cognitive defenses to always resist or else they wouldn't constantly have the resources wiped out, like Strat alleges. lol In part, they're vulnerable due to their valued 1D Te and unvalued 1D Ne; whereas IEEs have valued 2D Te and valued 4D Ne in addition to valued 3D Fi which places them in a better position to catch our bullshit. An SEI would see our bullshit, be turned off, and cross the street.
Yes to the emboldened red portion, but if you're actually dealing with LIEs, then the emboldened black portion won't be a full proof method because there is a degree of cognitive immunity due the nature of our IR. Relations of benefit are an asymmetrical IR > benefactor's creative function perceives the weakness of the beneficiary's suggestive function, and whereas the beneficiary's base function perceives the weakness of the benefactor's mobilizing function, the benefactor is less inclined to be moved/influenced/bullied on that aspect because it's not a prime concern; not that it's unimportant, but it's something the benefactor stubbornly exercises/acknowledges at their own discretion. If I'm relatively OK with being a lazy fat fuck, then admonishing me to go to the gym ain't really gonna do much. lol
Moreover, just as an IEE discerns my hustle/what I'm about a mile away through the lens of their Fi, and establishes the necessary protections against Te onslaughts, that's exactly what my Ni (and its forward looking contingencies) does in the face of Se "pressure"--there's a good chance I've already planned several steps ahead in anticipation of that.
I'm well aware of the itr dynamic between SLE and LIE. However I have been dualized for a long time and am ti sub along with many years of abuse by my LIE dad so I personally find them pretty predictable as well. My dad will usually cave when I resort to physical force, you gotta just position the confrontation right and catch them off guard, play a sheep, let them think they're pulling your string then BOOM. They'll usually resort to playing the victim in that instance being so blind sided, which does nothing for me. I don't care about looking like a dick to a bigger dick.
FACTS. My father was an LIE dickhead, as well, so I get it. And he had been kicked around by his LSI and SLE dickhead father and brother. I spent a lot of my youth in a very violent, strong Se valuing society and I probably have a mild PTSD, which is why my antennae immediately go up when high D Se types start talking about applying "pressure." lol Tangentially, this makes me think of epigenetic trauma, the notion that traumatic experiences can leave a chemical mark on one's genes (that might, for example, alter how genes manage the predominance of certain hormones), which might then be passed down from generation to generation, kind of like an inbuilt survival kit for your progeny.
Interestingly enough, Gulenko, in comparing his DCNH system with Helen Fisher's hormonal typology, posited a correlation between Dominant [Te, Se, Fe] & Testosterone, Creative [Ne, Fe, Se] & Dopamine, Normalizing [Ti, Fi, Si] & Serotonin, and Harmonizing [Ni, Fi, Si] & Estrogen. All of these theories are circumstantial af, but it's interesting to ponder the possible connections and correlations.
Yes, this is the only thing that’s worked for me with the former employer I mentioned as well. Play nice so they get close to you again, expose them and observe them trying to manipulate and put you down by them playing victim while blatantly and obviously ignoring their own sins which have just been exposed, and then drop the ultimatum.
This is the core of the problems with LIEs, not in the least for themselves. Their Te, in this respect, is not only about efficiency, but also about effectiveness. It's the ultimate approach to goal-directness, not just in the general of Socionics sense, but also in a sociological sense, as explained by one of Max Weber types of rationality, Practical Rationality: "People who practice practical rationality accept given realities and merely calculate the most expedient ways of dealing with the difficulties that they present" (Ritzer, Classical Sociolocal Theory, 2008, p. 248). Thus, an LIE envisions a goal and calculates the most expedient way towards that goal. One can imagine what happens if setting the goals and the ways to that goal is severed from ethical input (i.e. the consequences for other people, animals, the environment etc.etc.). Moral considerations are not automatically part of the LIEs attitude, although there is often no malicious intention, it's a blind spot. In fact, they reason that if the law allows it, it should be okay. And the next step is to lobby for changing (in their favor) or abolishing laws, because if the law is the obstruction, then getting the law out of the way is also acceptable, the law is merely a reality that can be changed. With their moral blind spot they do not see that the law and laws (Ti, or formal institutions as sociology calls them) are usually derived from social norms (Fe and Fi, or informal institutions). It is this severing of the informal and the formal that is the cause of LIEs going wrong, or society transforming towards neo-liberalism.
Now let us make clear that each and every Socionics type has attitudes that can do harm. Take, for example, EIIs with their, imho, often naive ideas about human nature, seeing, e.g., only the negative effects of restriction of migration for immigrants or refugees (a tunnel vision focus on the emotional pain of the immigrants) and not seeing the negative effects of large scale immigration on society at large. EIIs, with the tendency towards self-sacrafice, expect the rest of us to self-sacrifice as well. In this sense, all of us are a potential danger or problem if we are not balanced by the qualities of our duals and other types in the socion.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
I once lost over $50k in a business deal with a guy whom I knew was untrustworthy, but I thought I had things under control. Wrong. I didn't realize that he was completely willing to bankrupt his business to avoid paying me. I always had a hard time typing him, partly because he was so obviously a crook, but in retrospect, I think he was LIE.
Strangely enough, he's not one of the two people I've met in my life whom I've wanted to kill. I hit a bump in the road and kept going, while he's burning every bridge there is. He's wrecking his life without my help.
Interesting dynamic in this post. I don't like to type people based on their forum post, but am going to take a guess here:
consentingadult is SLI, LIE's supervisor, cannot tolerate the lack of Si in LIE behaviors because it's disorienting. Ne suggestive does not like the randomness of LIE's Ne demonstrative. SLIs are positivist, so their views to something are either all white or all black.
I feel being with a supervisee is a good exercise to train our ignoring function and role function, because our leading function is completely useless and cannot affect the supervisee, and our suggestive function is at a most vulnerable place. When I started working with an LSE boss I was infuriated for the first 8 months and then realized I'd better use this period to learn something/get over this self-inflicted pain (not by avoiding that type all together but by changing how I respond to them). It's a humbling experience.
I believe that @consentingadult self-types as IEE, but I could be wrong about that.
He has/had a really interesting website about Socionics, but I can't find my references to it.
http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.com/
It has no post it seems tho.
Fortunately, the internet never forgets: https://web.archive.org/web/20181201....blogspot.com/
yeeeeah take that you hidesome woodland pickle
I saw him mentioning it. I feel benefactors tend not to have such a negative reaction towards beneficiaries. IEEs themselves are not that "contract-binding" and like to change their minds often. They are confident with Ne and I doubt whether they will be so furious about others using the tricks mentioned in the post.
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