Jack the Exploiter - LIE/ENTj

[Aramas]

The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al. as:



The problem with many LIEs, in the view of the people they work with, is that they take and do not give back. This is the first bolded part in the quote above. Their dealings with other people might not characterized by reciprocity. Now some LIEs might argue that they pay people their paycheck, but then they ignore that most people deliver beyond the call of duty, and are not properly compensated for that. Also, some of the worse LIEs do not even want to pay the agreed price.

The more serious pathological LIEs go one step further, then we get to the second bolded part in the quote: their behavior gets outright sadistic and/or abusive.

My SEI GF broke off a friendship with a n LIE woman recently for the second, and probably final final time. The woman, who lives on the other side of town, was sick for a couple of weeks, and my GF offered to do some groceries for her, since her neighbor didn't want to do it anymore. So my GF drove to the other side of town, got her groceries and then went to drop off the groceries. Then she and the woman discussed their hobby (making clothes) and went through pieces of cloth the woman had. My GF remarked about some particular cloth how nice it was, then the woman replied, do you want to have it, I'm not going to use it. My GF said okay. A bit later they went to settle the bill for the groceries, then the woman mentioned to settle the bill with the price of the cloth. My GF was under the impression that the cloth was a gift. So they negotiated a price of 3 euros (THREE shitty euros!!) for the cloth, when my GF took it on her to drive all the way to the other side of town (easily 4 euros in gasoline) and did her groceries. My GF was taken aback, but didn't assert herself. Later when she came home, she started feeling bad about it, also understood why this woman is constantly driving other people away: because she does not give back when being given something. I was no at all surprised my GF decided to break off the friendship, it was in the stars.

In business dealings, my alarm bells usually start ringing pretty fast when dealing with LIEs. Only a few are of a reliable nature. Some even have the ff-ing nerve to ask for your input and contributions while making clear from the start that they are going to spend their money elsewhere (a place most likely a lot cheaper). Some even start putting pressure on you on your rate not even having discussed the nature of the project. In that sense it's better dealing with their ESI duals: they will give you a call if you forget to send them an invoice timely ;-)

In my experience, LIEs most often attempt to use persuasion and chicanery before using force, although the second is always an underlying option that they're quite willing to apply if they think it's necessary to meet their goals. They would rather butter you, that is, rather than beat you into submission. Perhaps forceful buttering is Se though.

And yes, LIEs and certain other types always argue that people get their paychecks or that people willingly agreed to something. They just never tell you about the rock and hard place the person was forced between before they "willingly" agreed.

[Adam Strange]

In my experience, LIEs most often attempt to use persuasion and chicanery before using force, although the second is always an underlying option that they're quite willing to apply if they think it's necessary to meet their goals. They would rather butter you, that is, rather than beat you into submission. Perhaps forceful buttering is Se though.

And yes, LIEs and certain other types always argue that people get their paychecks or that people willingly agreed to something. They just never tell you about the rock and hard place the person was forced between before they "willingly" agreed.

Lol. "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse."

[consentingadult]

...They just never tell you about the rock and hard place the person was forced between before they "willingly" agreed.

True, but there are such things as culture and social norms. In the long run, LIEs who want to have it all their way run the risk of people turning their backs on them. Perhaps not a problem in the sphere of business, because there are always new people to exploit, but your personal life might get quite lonely in the end.

In any case, Socionics has thought me how to deal with LIEs in business and personal life ;-)

[kingslayer]

True, but there are such things as culture and social norms. In the long run, LIEs who want to have it all their way run the risk of people turning their backs on them. Perhaps not a problem in the sphere of business, because there are always new people to exploit, but your personal life might get quite lonely in the end.

In any case, Socionics has thought me how to deal with LIEs in business and personal life ;-)

Dealing with them is simple. Just kill it with fire.

[consentingadult]

Dealing with them is simple. Just kill it with fire.

I just make sure never to fly with Ryanair ;-)

[Aramas]

True, but there are such things as culture and social norms. In the long run, LIEs who want to have it all their way run the risk of people turning their backs on them. Perhaps not a problem in the sphere of business, because there are always new people to exploit, but your personal life might get quite lonely in the end.

In any case, Socionics has thought me how to deal with LIEs in business and personal life ;-)

Do tell

[consentingadult]

Do tell

In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.

In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.

If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.

Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).

Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:



Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.

A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:

"I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"

[kingslayer]

In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.

In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.

If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.

Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).

Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:



Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.

A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:

"I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"

God this is so accurate with this scum bag LIE I know.. Good write up. They play on these stupid technicalities and peoples morals. So that's true that you don't explain anything to them, unless you want to have a circular conversation where they will find a new excuse for each reason you come up with. The trick is to just keep bluntly repeating what you're saying in a matter of fact way. Thankfully for me I am se base and fi polr, so I just pressure them and they usually cave and fuck off.

A lot get nervous at the threat of physical force. mind you this all needs to be immediate pressuring, over the phone or computer means nothing to them. You gotta be in their face and then you can see their weak sensing and how insecure most are about it (Pathetic se ha).

No offense to any LIE's here. This is pertaining to bad ones. I know an LIE guy who's a great dude and very friendly and doesn't screw anyone over.

Makes sense ESI is their dual. Someone retardedly rigid in ethics who will forcefully push them onto the LIE with volitional pressuring, they're defenseless against a successful volitional pressurer who has a similar mentality towards things. Look at how Elizabeth Warren made Bloomberg look like a clown in the Vegas Debate. She's ESI He's LIE.

[consentingadult]

Makes sense ESI is their dual. Someone retardedly rigid in ethics who will forcefully push them onto the LIE with volitional pressuring, they're defenseless against a successful volitional pressurer who has a similar mentality towards things. Look at how Elizabeth Warren made Bloomberg look like a clown in the Vegas Debate. She's ESI He's LIE.

That's the big difference between SxEs and LIEs: SxEs know how to dose Se, when an LIE uses Se, they too soon do too much of it. Now this might work on people who are in some way dependent on them, but otherwise it is a sign to stay away from them.

[Aramas]

That's the big difference between SxEs and LIEs: SxEs know how to dose Se, when an LIE uses Se, they too soon do too much of it. Now this might work on people who are in some way dependent on them, but otherwise it is a sign to stay away from them.

SEEs usually dangle the carrot before they use the Se. And yes, I mean that in multiple ways.

[kingslayer]

That's the big difference between SxEs and LIEs: SxEs know how to dose Se, when an LIE uses Se, they too soon do too much of it. Now this might work on people who are in some way dependent on them, but otherwise it is a sign to stay away from them.

When they do it to an se base (they usually dont) it's an act of war

[Alonzo]

A lot get nervous at the threat of physical force. mind you this all needs to be immediate pressuring, over the phone or computer means nothing to them. You gotta be in their face and then you can see their weak sensing and how insecure most are about it (Pathetic se ha).

And don't mistake weak Se for an inability to successfully beat dat ass. lol One of the problems with weak Se is an inability to properly discern how much kinetic pressure/force/power is necessary to impact an object/move it through space. The mobilizing function is a wonky one; it can be used too little or too much. And particularly in cases of immediate danger, matters of life or death, etc..., do not underestimate an EXNjs ability to turn all the way up, and if anything, go TOO far. I'm rather aware of my weak Se, which is why my mentality is to utterly annihilate the enemy so that they can never come back. If you're going to get the jump on LIE, there needs an unorthodox, heavy, relentless onslaught. And be properly prepared for the 10 other SLE goons we hired for back up; it's a very John McClane Vs. Hans Gruber kinda deal. lol

[kingslayer]

And don't mistake weak Se for an inability to successfully beat dat ass. lol One of the problems with weak Se is an inability to properly discern how much kinetic pressure/force/power is necessary to impact an object/move it through space. The mobilizing function is a wonky one; it can be used too little or too much. And particularly in cases of immediate danger, matters of life or death, etc..., do not underestimate an EXNjs ability to turn all the way up, and if anything, go TOO far. I'm rather aware of my weak Se, which is why my mentality is to utterly annihilate the enemy so that they can never come back. If you're going to get the jump on LIE, there needs an unorthodox, heavy, relentless onslaught. And be properly prepared for the 10 other SLE goons we hired for back up; it's a very John McClane Vs. Hans Gruber kinda deal. lol

Of course not, that's not what I mean by physical pressuring. I'm not gonna fist fight someone at work right? Especially an LIE who will jump the first chance to sue you if you do so. they simply can't react quick enough to physical dominance over them in the instinctual sense. you do it enough to anyone, they become intimidated. SLE is the general for a reason

The best fighter I know is an EIE. He can probably beat me in 1 v 1. but I can still pressure him into doing what I want most times as long as I let him feel a sense of control over the group

[NightHawk]

And don't mistake weak Se for an inability to successfully beat dat ass. lol One of the problems with weak Se is an inability to properly discern how much kinetic pressure/force/power is necessary to impact an object/move it through space. The mobilizing function is a wonky one; it can be used too little or too much. And particularly in cases of immediate danger, matters of life or death, etc..., do not underestimate an EXNjs ability to turn all the way up, and if anything, go TOO far. I'm rather aware of my weak Se, which is why my mentality is to utterly annihilate the enemy so that they can never come back. If you're going to get the jump on LIE, there needs an unorthodox, heavy, relentless onslaught. And be properly prepared for the 10 other SLE goons we hired for back up; it's a very John McClane Vs. Hans Gruber kinda deal. lol

OMG YES all of this !

[Alonzo]

In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.
...

The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face

Are you IEE? Theoretically, this only really makes sense with certain types of IR because there are different degrees of cognitive armament/disarmament depending on IR. For example, ESI may be able to recognize LIE's less desirable behaviors but evidently they don't have the natural cognitive defenses to always resist or else they wouldn't constantly have the resources wiped out, like Strat alleges. lol In part, they're vulnerable due to their valued 1D Te and unvalued 1D Ne; whereas IEEs have valued 2D Te and valued 4D Ne in addition to valued 3D Fi which places them in a better position to catch our bullshit. An SEI would see our bullshit, be turned off, and cross the street.

God this is so accurate with this scum bag LIE I know.. Good write up. They play on these stupid technicalities and peoples morals. So that's true that you don't explain anything to them, unless you want to have a circular conversation where they will find a new excuse for each reason you come up with. The trick is to just keep bluntly repeating what you're saying in a matter of fact way. Thankfully for me I am se base and fi polr, so I just pressure them and they usually cave and fuck off.

Yes to the emboldened red portion, but if you're actually dealing with LIEs, then the emboldened black portion won't be a full proof method because there is a degree of cognitive immunity due the nature of our IR. Relations of benefit are an asymmetrical IR > benefactor's creative function perceives the weakness of the beneficiary's suggestive function, and whereas the beneficiary's base function perceives the weakness of the benefactor's mobilizing function, the benefactor is less inclined to be moved/influenced/bullied on that aspect because it's not a prime concern; not that it's unimportant, but it's something the benefactor stubbornly exercises/acknowledges at their own discretion. If I'm relatively OK with being a lazy fat fuck, then admonishing me to go to the gym ain't really gonna do much. lol

Moreover, just as an IEE discerns my hustle/what I'm about a mile away through the lens of their Fi, and establishes the necessary protections against Te onslaughts, that's exactly what my Ni (and its forward looking contingencies) does in the face of Se "pressure"--there's a good chance I've already planned several steps ahead in anticipation of that.

[kingslayer]

Are you IEE? Theoretically, this only really makes sense with certain types of IR because there are different degrees of cognitive armament/disarmament depending on IR. For example, ESI may be able to recognize LIE's less desirable behaviors but evidently they don't have the natural cognitive defenses to always resist or else they wouldn't constantly have the resources wiped out, like Strat alleges. lol In part, they're vulnerable due to their valued 1D Te and unvalued 1D Ne; whereas IEEs have valued 2D Te and valued 4D Ne in addition to valued 3D Fi which places them in a better position to catch our bullshit. An SEI would see our bullshit, be turned off, and cross the street.



Yes to the emboldened red portion, but if you're actually dealing with LIEs, then the emboldened black portion won't be a full proof method because there is a degree of cognitive immunity due the nature of our IR. Relations of benefit are an asymmetrical IR > benefactor's creative function perceives the weakness of the beneficiary's suggestive function, and whereas the beneficiary's base function perceives the weakness of the benefactor's mobilizing function, the benefactor is less inclined to be moved/influenced/bullied on that aspect because it's not a prime concern; not that it's unimportant, but it's something the benefactor stubbornly exercises/acknowledges at their own discretion. If I'm relatively OK with being a lazy fat fuck, then admonishing me to go to the gym ain't really gonna do much. lol

Moreover, just as an IEE discerns my hustle/what I'm about a mile away through the lens of their Fi, and establishes the necessary protections against Te onslaughts, that's exactly what my Ni (and its forward looking contingencies) does in the face of Se "pressure"--there's a good chance I've already planned several steps ahead in anticipation of that.

I'm well aware of the itr dynamic between SLE and LIE. However I have been dualized for a long time and am ti sub along with many years of abuse by my LIE dad so I personally find them pretty predictable as well. My dad will usually cave when I resort to physical force, you gotta just position the confrontation right and catch them off guard, play a sheep, let them think they're pulling your string then BOOM. They'll usually resort to playing the victim in that instance being so blind sided, which does nothing for me. I don't care about looking like a dick to a bigger dick.

[Alonzo]

I'm well aware of the itr dynamic between SLE and LIE. However I have been dualized for a long time and am ti sub along with many years of abuse by my LIE dad so I personally find them pretty predictable as well. My dad will usually cave when I resort to physical force, you gotta just position the confrontation right and catch them off guard, play a sheep, let them think they're pulling your string then BOOM. They'll usually resort to playing the victim in that instance being so blind sided, which does nothing for me. I don't care about looking like a dick to a bigger dick.

FACTS. My father was an LIE dickhead, as well, so I get it. And he had been kicked around by his LSI and SLE dickhead father and brother. I spent a lot of my youth in a very violent, strong Se valuing society and I probably have a mild PTSD, which is why my antennae immediately go up when high D Se types start talking about applying "pressure." lol Tangentially, this makes me think of epigenetic trauma, the notion that traumatic experiences can leave a chemical mark on one's genes (that might, for example, alter how genes manage the predominance of certain hormones), which might then be passed down from generation to generation, kind of like an inbuilt survival kit for your progeny.

Interestingly enough, Gulenko, in comparing his DCNH system with Helen Fisher's hormonal typology, posited a correlation between Dominant [Te, Se, Fe] & Testosterone, Creative [Ne, Fe, Se] & Dopamine, Normalizing [Ti, Fi, Si] & Serotonin, and Harmonizing [Ni, Fi, Si] & Estrogen. All of these theories are circumstantial af, but it's interesting to ponder the possible connections and correlations.

[sbbds]

I'm well aware of the itr dynamic between SLE and LIE. However I have been dualized for a long time and am ti sub along with many years of abuse by my LIE dad so I personally find them pretty predictable as well. My dad will usually cave when I resort to physical force, you gotta just position the confrontation right and catch them off guard, play a sheep, let them think they're pulling your string then BOOM. They'll usually resort to playing the victim in that instance being so blind sided, which does nothing for me. I don't care about looking like a dick to a bigger dick.

Yes, this is the only thing that’s worked for me with the former employer I mentioned as well. Play nice so they get close to you again, expose them and observe them trying to manipulate and put you down by them playing victim while blatantly and obviously ignoring their own sins which have just been exposed, and then drop the ultimatum.

[consentingadult]

...Te onslaughts...

This is the core of the problems with LIEs, not in the least for themselves. Their Te, in this respect, is not only about efficiency, but also about effectiveness. It's the ultimate approach to goal-directness, not just in the general of Socionics sense, but also in a sociological sense, as explained by one of Max Weber types of rationality, Practical Rationality: "People who practice practical rationality accept given realities and merely calculate the most expedient ways of dealing with the difficulties that they present" (Ritzer, Classical Sociolocal Theory, 2008, p. 248). Thus, an LIE envisions a goal and calculates the most expedient way towards that goal. One can imagine what happens if setting the goals and the ways to that goal is severed from ethical input (i.e. the consequences for other people, animals, the environment etc.etc.). Moral considerations are not automatically part of the LIEs attitude, although there is often no malicious intention, it's a blind spot. In fact, they reason that if the law allows it, it should be okay. And the next step is to lobby for changing (in their favor) or abolishing laws, because if the law is the obstruction, then getting the law out of the way is also acceptable, the law is merely a reality that can be changed. With their moral blind spot they do not see that the law and laws (Ti, or formal institutions as sociology calls them) are usually derived from social norms (Fe and Fi, or informal institutions). It is this severing of the informal and the formal that is the cause of LIEs going wrong, or society transforming towards neo-liberalism.

Now let us make clear that each and every Socionics type has attitudes that can do harm. Take, for example, EIIs with their, imho, often naive ideas about human nature, seeing, e.g., only the negative effects of restriction of migration for immigrants or refugees (a tunnel vision focus on the emotional pain of the immigrants) and not seeing the negative effects of large scale immigration on society at large. EIIs, with the tendency towards self-sacrafice, expect the rest of us to self-sacrifice as well. In this sense, all of us are a potential danger or problem if we are not balanced by the qualities of our duals and other types in the socion.

[Adam Strange]

In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.

In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.

If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.

Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).

Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:



Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.

A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:

"I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"

I once lost over $50k in a business deal with a guy whom I knew was untrustworthy, but I thought I had things under control. Wrong. I didn't realize that he was completely willing to bankrupt his business to avoid paying me. I always had a hard time typing him, partly because he was so obviously a crook, but in retrospect, I think he was LIE.

Strangely enough, he's not one of the two people I've met in my life whom I've wanted to kill. I hit a bump in the road and kept going, while he's burning every bridge there is. He's wrecking his life without my help.

[Vis]

In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.

In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.

If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.

Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).

Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:



Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.

A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:

"I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"

Interesting dynamic in this post. I don't like to type people based on their forum post, but am going to take a guess here:

consentingadult is SLI, LIE's supervisor, cannot tolerate the lack of Si in LIE behaviors because it's disorienting. Ne suggestive does not like the randomness of LIE's Ne demonstrative. SLIs are positivist, so their views to something are either all white or all black.

I feel being with a supervisee is a good exercise to train our ignoring function and role function, because our leading function is completely useless and cannot affect the supervisee, and our suggestive function is at a most vulnerable place. When I started working with an LSE boss I was infuriated for the first 8 months and then realized I'd better use this period to learn something/get over this self-inflicted pain (not by avoiding that type all together but by changing how I respond to them). It's a humbling experience.

[Adam Strange]

Interesting dynamic in this post. I don't like to type people based on their forum post, but am going to take a guess here:

consentingadult is SLI, LIE's supervisor, cannot tolerate the lack of Si in LIE behaviors because it's disorienting. Ne suggestive does not like the randomness of LIE's Ne demonstrative. SLIs are positivist, so their views to something are either all white or all black.

I feel being with a supervisee is a good exercise to train our ignoring function and role function, because our leading function is completely useless and cannot affect the supervisee, and our suggestive function is at a most vulnerable place. When I started working with an LSE boss I was infuriated for the first 8 months and then realized I'd better use this period to learn something/get over this self-inflicted pain (not by avoiding that type all together but by changing how I respond to them). It's a humbling experience.

I believe that @consentingadult self-types as IEE, but I could be wrong about that.
He has/had a really interesting website about Socionics, but I can't find my references to it.

[adage]

I believe that @consentingadult self-types as IEE, but I could be wrong about that.
He has/had a really interesting website about Socionics, but I can't find my references to it.

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.com/
It has no post it seems tho.

[Vis]

I believe that @consentingadult self-types as IEE, but I could be wrong about that.
He has/had a really interesting website about Socionics, but I can't find my references to it.

I saw him mentioning it. I feel benefactors tend not to have such a negative reaction towards beneficiaries. IEEs themselves are not that "contract-binding" and like to change their minds often. They are confident with Ne and I doubt whether they will be so furious about others using the tricks mentioned in the post.