A thread to discuss the idea that Jack's (LIE's) are Exploiters, as per Stratiyevskaya's assertion.
"Duality Relations ISFj and ENTj by Stratiyevskaya"
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya
Jack the Exploiter - LIE/ENTj
A thread to discuss the idea that Jack's (LIE's) are Exploiters, as per Stratiyevskaya's assertion.
"Duality Relations ISFj and ENTj by Stratiyevskaya"
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya
This made me think of the subconscious ways my Te- lead manifests.
It is said to be unsustainable thirst for acquiring stuff.
If you look at me being a Sx first you could call it that way. It manifests with me acquiring attraction.
In most of my environments women crush a lot on me. In one of my old courses there was not a single women that did not have a crush on me for some time or at least found me attractive.
I usually flirt with people i feel an attraction with and some of them fell in love with me in the process.
Ni creative is a great tool to make people feel good, being a Sx first one and harmonizer gives you a good picture to project.
Maybe you could call that exploitation, i don't even do that on purpose, i even avoided socializing with a group of women in near past because i know i don't want to marry any of them and they would only fall in love with me.
But yes, maybe that is a way i exploit people. It's an Se hidden agenda and intensity thing for me probably. i genuily feel what i share with those women but in the end i know that i won't keep any of them. Still i usually make them fall for me, not even sure if i intend to do so. Maybe also a Victim thing, looking for their Se to pull through and not finding it.
intimacy Maybe this is how i exploit people in my prime focus Sx, it runs automatically and i don't ever seem to have enough connection and people finding me attractive while showing interest in only a few.
[Wow i really do like myself, but this wasn't even the intention of this post geniuly seemed like a connection when i started to write this.]
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Also, i do think that what strati wrote was in a hypothetical situation and she focused on the subjective perspective of a specific esi in this situation, and did not mean the word exploiter as a generalization.
Depends on the intended meaning of the word: exploiter. Humans tend to be opportunists and can be equally exploitive of one another and of the environment so the word is likely applicable to us all. Eps seem to have natural abilities to take advantage of something in a parasitic sense because they're often the first to notice an opportunity or opening. Ejs have natural abilities to bring things/people together and make things happen but that doesn't indicate a greater exploitive urge......
a.k.a. I/O
Looking at the title I first thought this was a salt post about Jack Oliver Aaron from WSS.
Nope. That particular "Jack" never entered my mind, actually. This is really a thread inspired by some interactions I've had recently with some LIE's and ESI's, but I need more time to sort things out in my mind and I wanted to throw this out there in the meantime.Originally Posted by Muddy
Strat has been accused of being particularly harsh with her Duals (and everyone else, for that matter), but I've recently been trying to see things from the ESI perspective. I was struck in particular by a comment that an LIE friend of mine made, where he told me that his ESI GF had put him through grad school and then they both watched as a friend of theirs, who was also being supported by his GF, left her after he graduated. The ESI GF threatened to kill the LIE if he left her the way their friend left his GF.
I have no idea what types the separated couple were, but the couples knew each other. Possibly LIE and ESI, possibly not. To me, letting a woman support you through school and then leaving her when you graduate is pretty low. I'd definitely call that exploitation, but again, I don't know their types.
I was really curious about tales of exploitation by LIE's that other people may have to relate.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-29-2020 at 05:48 PM.
I love that guy
Wow, that's one of the more pessimistic duality descriptions I've read, and it's definitely not kind to LIEs.
I don't know many LIEs IRL, so I can't verify how true this might be, but what Strat seems to say is that LIEs want to be free and act exploitatively to prevent themselves from feeling controlled. It actually reminds me of the ILE-SEI dynamic (the ILE doesn't want to be controlled/pinned down by the SEI; the SEI, like the ESI, creating a "cozy nest" to ensnare their dual, and so on), with a major difference being, I think, that ILEs seem more reluctant to actually hurt SEIs than LIEs apparently are to hurt ESIs.
One of those interesting symmetries in Socionics -- the ILE is less harsh toward his emotionally sensitive dual; the emotionally strong ESI can withstand the harsher LIE.
Not that this really means much, but it might be food for thought.
To operate with Te+Ne using subjective Ni path without Ti bindings does definitely sound like exploitation. Hah, hard to get around it.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Jacks are totally exploiters. If Ni is about opportunity, and Te about getting shit done efficiently, LIEs would initiate contact with the world in a way that maximizes the utility of all the opportunities that present themselves. Most forms of Te lend themselves to "hacking," rather than trying to understand a universal meaning of the phenomenon in question. Hack, exploit, tomato, tomato. No type is a bad person, we can all be unhealthy, but when LIE is unhealthy, whoa... talk about lack of Fi and being a fake af shell-of-a-person ��
Except hacking human interaction means empathy, genuinely caring about people, making sure you're fair with them, holding up your part of the social contract OR reworking that with them.
I do see NT gammas as opportunistic. My manager called me 'resourceful.' But, being resourceful with people CAN mean being sincere with them, and I enjoy trying myself at that task. There's supposedly bravery in it, just like ppl think there is bravery in physical trials or enterprising challenges LIEs put themselves through, according to the lit on ENTJs and my own experiences, but for me, it feels easier doing what ppl say is brave. It's a relief. I find it harder and kinda painful to not be sincere and open, to not push myself physically, and to not confront problems at work.
Plus, you can argue with LIE agape love and with gamma's prediliction for self-sacrifice for the greater good (yes, that is in the lit, too) that LIE are capable of the antithesis of exploiting humans.
I'd say a healthy LIE would always be something of an opportunist but can use those powers for good. Being an exploiter isn't inevitable since character is separate from cognitive functions. Since you're seeking real life tales, it got me thinking about two LIE males I know. One is married to his dual ESI, and one is married to an EII.
The dualized LIE is a great guy, probably 3w4. I think he's Sx first, and he treats his wife well. It's cute. I wouldn't describe him as exploitive at all (of her or in general), he's a team player and observant of others' needs. He works full time, is a landlord, and hands on with their daughter. One funny little story, though. They hosted a Japanese foreign exchange student last summer. I said, "Oh, that's cool of you." He was like "yeah, we've both wanted to visit Japan, so now we have a connection there in case we need a free place to stay." Haha.
The LIE married to an EII is also a type 3, but So/Sx. She financially supported him to go to grad school first even though she wanted to go back to school, too, had just had a young daughter, and they were paying off his student loans. It's one of her biggest resentments against him. He barely made it through after three awful, stressful years, and stalled and stalled taking (and failing) multiple expensive certification tests for several years after grad school. He's tried multiple part time jobs that are sort of related to what he said he wanted to do at the beginning, but can't seem to make it work for a variety of reasons and blames it on everyone else in his environment (coworkers, bosses don't understand him, it's not what he likes to be doing, etc. etc.). He has a better job now and she only works part time, but I think those 7 years wore her down and drained a lot of the love.
Is that exploitation? I don't know. He's definitely not interested in leaving her. She's acknowledged her role in the dysfunction and that it was a mistake to give up her dreams for someone else, but it's really hard for EIIs to apply pressure to anyone. She's so soft on him even when she thinks she's being tough.
I also think the second LIE struggles with narcissism, while the first one does not. Not more than any other person, at least.
To be a Te lead means to exist in a perpetual state of evaluating something or someone's objective utility. I don't care if it's a toaster, a schedule, an app, an accountant or a Basketball player, I'm always asking "to what extent do you effectively fulfill your raison d'etre?" and "how can I best utilize this to some end?" 4D Ne allows LIEs to see an object's potential utility and the plethora of ways in which it can be applied. Yes, put together, this sounds rather cold, impersonal and exploitative, but we're hardwired to see the world through a utilitarian lens--that's simply the nature of the beast.
lol Yes. I'm always scanning and mining for the valuable stone (read: utility and its potential for application) buried beneath one's soiled, sooty surface. And once they are sufficiently refined and polished, they become resplendent jewelry that can be readily worn or stashed away for the right occasion. Throughout my life, rarely have I taken the time to help someone realize their potential and not reaped a benefit in some way, whether I intended for that or not. The thing is, I can't help but be generous with this ability; I'm compelled to not only see potential and opportunity everywhere and in everyone, but to speak to it, and if possible, actualize it. It's not as intentionally predatory (in the sociopathic sense) as Strat would have you believe.
LIEs don't require immediate returns on the resources (including energy and effort) we've invested because our Ni allows us to play the long term game. I've literally helped people "gratis," not seen or heard from them in years, only for them to reemerge at the opportune moment with some "payback" they felt obliged to offer because of my previously showcased "generosity of spirit." In that way, it's hard to feel like I ever truly lose or am down for the count, because I've cumulatively devoted so much time to spreading and sowing seeds that somehow blossom and produce fruits when I've needed them. That's the practical, realistic way that "karma" has manifested in my life. I see how LIEs might be great leaders and generals in the sense that we can go throughout life building an army of sorts, a network of people willing to follow us into war, whether out of appreciation/gratitude, debt or potential gain, and usually because we were able to open them up to their hidden potentialities (or of some endeavor) they might not have otherwise seen. It should go without saying that Ne PoLR types are probably the most susceptible to this approach, whether that be to their benefit or their demise.
The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al. as:
The problem with many LIEs, in the view of the people they work with, is that they take and do not give back. This is the first bolded part in the quote above. Their dealings with other people might not characterized by reciprocity. Now some LIEs might argue that they pay people their paycheck, but then they ignore that most people deliver beyond the call of duty, and are not properly compensated for that. Also, some of the worse LIEs do not even want to pay the agreed price."The belief that one is superior to other people; entitled to special rights and privileges; or not bound by the rules of reciprocity that guide normal social interaction. Often involves insistence that one should be able to do or have whatever one wants, regardless of what is realistic, what others consider reasonable, or the cost to others; OR an exaggerated focus on superiority (e.g., being among the most successful, famous, wealthy) -- in order to achieve power or control (not primarily for attention or approval). Sometimes includes excessive competitiveness toward, or domination of, others: asserting one's power, forcing one's point of view, or controlling the behavior of others in line with one's own desires---without empathy or concern for others' needs or feelings."
The more serious pathological LIEs go one step further, then we get to the second bolded part in the quote: their behavior gets outright sadistic and/or abusive.
My SEI GF broke off a friendship with a n LIE woman recently for the second, and probably final final time. The woman, who lives on the other side of town, was sick for a couple of weeks, and my GF offered to do some groceries for her, since her neighbor didn't want to do it anymore. So my GF drove to the other side of town, got her groceries and then went to drop off the groceries. Then she and the woman discussed their hobby (making clothes) and went through pieces of cloth the woman had. My GF remarked about some particular cloth how nice it was, then the woman replied, do you want to have it, I'm not going to use it. My GF said okay. A bit later they went to settle the bill for the groceries, then the woman mentioned to settle the bill with the price of the cloth. My GF was under the impression that the cloth was a gift. So they negotiated a price of 3 euros (THREE shitty euros!!) for the cloth, when my GF took it on her to drive all the way to the other side of town (easily 4 euros in gasoline) and did her groceries. My GF was taken aback, but didn't assert herself. Later when she came home, she started feeling bad about it, also understood why this woman is constantly driving other people away: because she does not give back when being given something. I was no at all surprised my GF decided to break off the friendship, it was in the stars.
In business dealings, my alarm bells usually start ringing pretty fast when dealing with LIEs. Only a few are of a reliable nature. Some even have the ff-ing nerve to ask for your input and contributions while making clear from the start that they are going to spend their money elsewhere (a place most likely a lot cheaper). Some even start putting pressure on you on your rate not even having discussed the nature of the project. In that sense it's better dealing with their ESI duals: they will give you a call if you forget to send them an invoice timely ;-)
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
In my experience, LIEs most often attempt to use persuasion and chicanery before using force, although the second is always an underlying option that they're quite willing to apply if they think it's necessary to meet their goals. They would rather butter you, that is, rather than beat you into submission. Perhaps forceful buttering is Se though.
And yes, LIEs and certain other types always argue that people get their paychecks or that people willingly agreed to something. They just never tell you about the rock and hard place the person was forced between before they "willingly" agreed.
Lol. "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse."
True, but there are such things as culture and social norms. In the long run, LIEs who want to have it all their way run the risk of people turning their backs on them. Perhaps not a problem in the sphere of business, because there are always new people to exploit, but your personal life might get quite lonely in the end.
In any case, Socionics has thought me how to deal with LIEs in business and personal life ;-)
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Dealing with them is simple. Just kill it with fire.
I just make sure never to fly with Ryanair ;-)
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Do tell
In general, I avoid dealing with them once I have recognized them. Which is quite easy, because their behaviors are obvious. But some can be persistent, and you deal with that by being blunt, not using lame, diplomatic excuses.
In a photography course a fellow student, an older homosexual guy learned that I was a consultant in the computer business. Eager to invite to his place under the guise of PC issues, he informed about my rate. So I told him my rate, immediately followed by the remark that I didn't do that kind of work. So he tried other options, such as he coming to my "office" instead, looking for an opening, ignoring the clues I gave him. I just kept repeating that I didn't do PC support. Basically telling him "NO' again and again without giving a reason. Never give a reason, they will grab you by the balls of your reasons. Just say NO.
If you have to deal with an LIE, never assume anything is a deal, always have everything in writing, make it a point to settle every little bit of extra work in written contractual form, or they will burden you with extra work for which they are never going to pay, because either you didn't tell them it was going to costs money or they assumed it was included in the already agreed price. And try to anticipate as much as you can the things that ARE NOT part of the contract, and mention these specifically. Bring these items as those things they themselves are (financially) responsible for. Which is always a good idea, even if your business contact is not an LIE.
Another thing is that some of the worse LIEs will abuse your lack of means to take things to court. E.g. a client of mine sold his web site (that I build for him) to an LIE for 75000 euros. The LIE and his company explicitly agreed (in paper) to not audit the software, meaning they could not complain about its quality afterwards. Well, my client never got his money, with he argument that the software was badly written. This despite the contractual agreement, as my client didn't have the money to take things to court. The LIE knew, from the start, that my client was all to eager to get rid of this web site (since it wasn't doing well commercially).
Mentioning this specific LIE: before acquiring the fore-mentioned web site, my client asked me to visit the new owner to explain about some of the technical details. The LIE called me, and started, in the phone call, to put all kinds of pressure on me, which made my alarm bells ring. Then I visited his web site, and saw that the company was incorporated in the Netherlands Antilles, instead of the Netherlands. And all of this openly, no companies in between to erase the tracks! Why would anyone have their business registered overseas in such an open fashion (i.e. it is not just to evade taxes). That was the second alarm bell, to which I decided I would not engage into a business relationship with him. Fast forward a couple of years later, when news started spreading in the business community that this guy left a mountain of unpaid bills. But of course, nothing was his fault, according to journalists who quoted him. Basically, the whole business was a scam to rob some money from investors, using suppliers in the process to put up a nice facade. Nevertheless, this guy is now persona non grata in the Dutch business world. You can fool some of the people all the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.
The basic reason why people fall for the complicated constructs of LIEs (or ILIs for that matter), is their own greed. So you best avoid LIEs by not being greedy. Greed makes you blind to what is there right in front of your face:
Last but not least: not all LIEs are scammers, far from it, but even with healthy LIEs you need to make sure you have got your act together, or else you will be the victim of their very high or even unrelenting demands. Many of them of not dishonest out of intention, but out of a lack of ethics, which is explained by their FI-suggestive. Which is why they need to be complimented with ESIs.
A very good book for all people interested in tricks of dishonest business men: Winning Through Intimidation by Robert J. Ringer. A quote from this book:
"I really meant to cut off your hand at the wrist when you reached for your chips, even though I had assured you that was never my intention"
Last edited by consentingadult; 02-28-2020 at 08:00 AM.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
I'd take issue with this argument. You have a gap in your reasoning: you ask us to accept that LIE are singularly prone to entitlement more than are other types without any proof. Then you explain what that might look like. It's unsupported, though. I typicaly see many Si/Ne quadra members offering gifts (at least some of the time this is as a cementer of relations. Instead of trading instructive real-life accounts of personal challenges and methods that might serve as tools, as gammas seem to, the Si/Ne offer 'to pay'..and sometimes that's an event ticket or restaurant bill a gamma was intending to pay on their own) and gammas resisting, citing inability or low likelihood they would repay or citing the giver 'needing it possibly' and urging them to keep it. While I think it's rubbish to not have mutualiy in a relationship, there's room to negotiate what that looks like and what's acceptable. The sick LIE may have been acting out of poverty more than personality. Also, there may have been an understanding on one side that charity was involved. I'm not sure. But extrapolating behavior like that to a pattern for alll LIE seems off to me
Last edited by nanashi; 05-21-2020 at 10:14 PM.
By all means, do so. I couldn't care less what you think, especially because you are claiming I said things I didn't say at all. You are nice company for people already on my ignore list. Have a nice life!
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
"The exploitive nature of LIEs (and EIEs for that matter), is often in their Se-mobilizing function. As I wrote on my blog, Se, in its unhealthy forms, is about the psychological concept of Entitlement, which is define by Young et.al." Se is not about entitlement. A person may overstep bounds and be using or favor any information element.
Obviously it depends on the person. There are good and bad people in every type. Everyone has a different balance. Generally speaking, LIE are good at getting their way, being a PITA if they know they can get away with it, and creating and keeping opportunities for themselves. This creates someone who can have a big negative impact if they are not morally attuned enough.
Right now I’m dealing with getting tax return documentation from a previous LIE boss of mine who harassed me, and it’s a PITA. Basically have to threaten taking legal action to get him to move his ass.
@Adam Strange I'm of the mind that a 4D lead extroverted rational function and a 1D suggestive introverted rational function means that one will always be consciously acclimated towards adjusting/moving/ordering the outside world (including the tribe), at the expense of their own subjective judgments, or in other words, their selves, i.e. EXTjs not knowing how we truly feel or what we value and EXFjs not knowing what they really think and believe to be true with crystalline clarity and precision.
Therefore, something in me wants to push back on the notion that LIEs are chiefly out for self gain and self enrichment--maybe it's just me, but something about that feels false. I believe that most of ours efforts stand to benefit A LOT of people; our impact having a wider breadth is inherent within the EJ temperament. I think that EJs sacrifice more of ourselves for the sake of the outer world, and one of the potential benefits is that we tend to reap higher reward, but again, that comes at the cost of "self." If anything, it's our duals (IJs) who tend to be most "self" oriented and self focused.
If Gamma quadra is concerned with freedom and individualism, then LIEs actualize theoretical frameworks into tangible structures that not only allow for everyone to freely express [Fi] themselves as they see fit, i.e., artistry, but to spread and share those expressions, i.e., commercialism. Yes, TeNx is exploitative and opportunistic, but not simply for the LIE's sake, which is my overarching point; it's not as if LIEs are known to just hoard and sit on our resources like fucking Smaug the Dragon. Nah, we're all about seeking out new opportunities, investing and reinvesting, taking high risks with high rewards concerning endeavors that will ultimately result in a heavy impact on OTHERS, the tribe. Granted, it's possible for that impact to have negative consequences, but it's just as possible for the impact to be positive. I just reject the notion that there is something inherently insidious about our makeup; perspective matters, and folks like Strav and some of the other posters on this thread forget they have cognitive biases that jaundice their interpretations.
Last edited by Alonzo; 02-27-2020 at 02:03 AM.
Jack: The one who took Strat's savings to spend in his own.
I think she was saving to print her socionics book for a long time when some Jack appeared to borrow it because yolo. She then wrote the last page of description with bitterness.
Last edited by Hope; 02-27-2020 at 11:43 PM.
A long time ago, when I was drinking a lot, I got into several fistfights. I lost as many as I won.
When you are drunk, you can't feel much and you can get blood all over everything before you know it.
*EDIT*
I'm not happy about getting into fist fights. I feel kind of ashamed and stupid when I look back on that.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-28-2020 at 06:29 PM.
I was talking to a male ESI friend of mine, who has faithfully but sometimes begrudgingly worked in the shadow of an LIE for twenty years, and I asked him if he thought that people of my type (he knows that his boss and I are the same "type") are exploiters and swindlers.
His reaction was remarkable. He got this big, incredulous grin on his face and then started laughing. Now, I've known this guy for a long time and I've never seen him laugh like that.
When he settled down, he said, "Present company excluded." Which I thought was rather nice of him, but I said, "No, probably me, too."
i think there is a difference between personal life and work, i don't think i am especially exploitative in my personal life (but also not self-sacrificing...i think the most exploitative types are Se dom) but in business well everyone is out for his own gain, often if you don't strike first you're gonna look like a fool, business world is anyway full of Te and Se dom types so basically exploitation is the basis of private business.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
It is true that Se creatives tend to take their [subjective] duties [a bit too] seriously.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Jacks are explorers. What's another name for the events of an explorer's explorations? His exploits.
[Today 03:36 AM] anotherperson: this forum feels like the edge of the internet
This ain’t your regular Dora the Explorer.
You have an opinion, how postmodern of you. I could easily refute your 'logic' and assumptions about what it entails be to IEE, and why I am still IEE and always have been one, and why and how I have learned to overcome the limitations of my personality as best as I can, but I won't, it is not up to me nor is it my responsibility to convince you of anything, the burden of responsibility of rising above the limitations of your Self is on you. Not even God nor Jesus will help you, unless you are prepared to put your soul and destiny into their hands, on their conditions, not yours. Your ignorance and your preaching, which are all over this site, has shown you haven't so far.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Maybe you are right!
IEE's:
"IEEs are usually friendly, propitious and accepting people. They ...tend to enjoy cultivating a sincere atmosphere of passive good will..."
"IEEs frequently have an innately optimistic disposition... and often earnestly believe in the value of a process of thorough, respectful, and politically correct discussion of controversial matters."
"IEE does not like conflict between people one bit; he would rather stay on everyone's good side and keep in good terms with both sides of a conflict..."
Certainly, consenting adult, the following innate trait must require your continual strident hard work to overcome, since we can never escape to pull of our basic personality:
"IEEs have the capability and ability to be direct and firm with others. However, [this is]... short-lived. As soon as the IEE starts to think about ...the negative connotations of their directness or firmness (Se), for example, fear of instilling fear in another person [so]...that it would cause the person to be timid to or even scared to approach the IEE thereby distorting the personal bonds the IEE has with the person (Fi), the IEE will back away from making such statements.
Therefore these direct and categorical statements are quite difficult for an IEE to make..."
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
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@consentingadult - And then there is this! Our embarrassing Ti-flaw! Try as we may, we can't avoid these situations that tax our Ti. Here is how we totally 'round-about 'splain things:
"IEEs tend to have a difficult time describing a concept or system in a manner in which the essential facts are all that is needed to understand or describe it. The IEE's focus in describing a concept or system is in how they themselves came to understand and see what they are describing. If an IEE is asked to describe or explain something, their natural tendency is to describe the pieces of the concept, system or idea that are related to the subject as a foundation before explaining the actual concept itself. The IEE will often describe details or aspects of a system that are unnecessary to the understanding of the system's properties, but the IEE views these details as essential functions of a sequential system (as opposed to describing the concept or system and only the concept or system as an independent entity). In other words, even if a detail is deemed outside of the IEE as extraneous, the IEE that is describing it will see it as a vital and significant part of a chain in order to paint the full, "proper" picture of the system the IEE wants to describe. An IEE will tend to start off explanations with a tremendous amount of detail, energy and patience and will move towards a more general explanation as they tire out (if they tire out). If something in the IEE's chain is broken or questioned, the description (in the IEE's mind) halts or falls apart."
Isn't this the truth? I think it's not possible to overcome this essential IEE flaw (except if we can plan ahead a memorized answer to the Ti query). I know while I am trying to explain this sort of thing that I am doing very poorly, that I am too much going on-and-on, and I am losing my listener (it's the glazed look in his eyes), but if I try harder, it takes more words!
The only way-around is following the easier route we IEE like to take, even though we know it's not what folks actually want - it's just easier for us:
"When an IEE understands a logical concept or system, they are much better at describing anecdotal experiences with the concept or system that help to illustrate the concept or system. They would prefer to do this rather than describing the concept or system as described in the previous paragraph -- describe the essential facts of a concept or system.".
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And thank you for that, Socionics writers. We IEE in fact DO understand logical concepts and systems - we just can't explain them to you!
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"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
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As an LIE, I make a point to not accept favors from people. Most LIE's have a lot of pride, and would rather do it themselves. As for being a manager, I would like to think I would be a fair one. Also, many LIE's respond well if you are just direct with them. In cases where I have crossed boundaries, all the person needs to do is speak up. The problem is many people are insecure, passive, and then wonder why they get stepped on.
Last edited by NightHawk; 05-31-2020 at 01:42 AM.
My EII secretary just agreed to take on a lot more responsibility for a lot more money.
Funny how that works.
It would be nice if she were working for love, but I think the best I can hope for is mild affection and a passing interest in my (our) welfare.
But on my side, I'm lucky. She's competent, loyal, and true. And worth it. And I don't think I can call her a secretary any more. I'll have to ask her what she calls herself, so I don't make a faux pas.
[QUOTE=Adam Strange;1493379]My EII secretary just agreed to take on a lot more responsibility for a lot more money.
Funny how that works.
It would be nice if she were working for love, but I think the best I can hope for is mild affection and a passing interest in my (our) welfare.
shes mini boss
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
She the one who eyed you?
She's the one who was trying to beat some sense into dumb ox (=LSE) me after I took her out to dinner but refused to kiss her, just because the opportunity was there. Hey, she's EII; a fantastic person, but not an ESI. Truthfully, if I didn't know about Socionics, I'd very likely be married to her right now. Because I'm naturally stupid and have a hard time understanding other people. And I'm a sucker for tall, thin, introverted females with dark hair who act demure and actually know people well and who seem to like me. SMH.
I think, in public, ESIs and EIIs are very similar with respect to LIEs. It's when they are not in public that you find major differences. I'm not a Caregiver looking for an Infantile, but I look to her pretty much like an LSE with some terrific dynamism and optimism during the day, and she likes that. She likes it too much.
She divorced her husband, who was probably an ESE, because he was not money-smart, and then started dating a guy who was possibly SEI, but it's hard for me to tell. She's just having a hard time getting her guns on the right target. I've pointed her towards LSEs, but she thinks they lack imagination.
You can't ripen a field before its time.
BUT, she's now responsible for the company's invoicing, and I couldn't be happier because she's 100% trustworthy. And diligent. And thorough. And on top of things. Thank god.
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