ILE-Ti's extreme frustration with people with Non-verbal learning disorder.

[Disturbed]

ILE-Ti, LSI-Se, and EIE-Ni probably have the most frustration of all the types with people who have NVLD and the ILE-Ti would be especially frustrated with people who have William's Syndrome (although they generally tolerate people with Down's Syndrome probably for the opposite reason they can't tolerate people with NVLD and WS). They're usually pretty tolerant, but people who don't pick up on non-verbal cues probably frustrate ILE-Ti more than any other kind of people. ILE-Ti (and LSI-Se) are often late talkers, not saying anything until it makes perfect sense, ILE-Ti's nonverbal reasoning ability is greater than any other type's and they don't like to give explanations much and they never or almost never offer them. The ILE-Ne is actually not super uncommon among people w/ NVLD, but the ILE-Ti is a type that could never have it (as are LSI-Se and EIE-Ni).

Just food for thought and I enjoy putting this out there.

[Cataclysm]

Can you give me a characterization of a person with this disorder? How would they look like in daily life; in school; at work; etc.

[Disturbed]

Can you give me a characterization of a person with this disorder? How would they look like in daily life; in school; at work; etc.

People with NVLD don't process non-verbal cues well and they're not great at deductive logic, they talk a lot, they're verbose, and they ask a lot of questions. They don't understand sarcasm well, they have poor coordination and poor social skills. They're frequently frustrated. They would look more masculine, they have shorter legs on average since none of them are ILE-Ti.

[sbbds]

Meh I don’t see how two subtypes of the same type would be so different in this regard in such a consistent way. How would this make sense in terms of IEs?

If you’re going to describe such a specific kind of type experiences which most people probably wouldn’t have noticed, that doesn’t even make obvious intuitive sense either, then at least provide your own clear structural explanation for it.

[Disturbed]

Meh I don’t see how two subtypes of the same type would be so different in this regard in such a consistent way. How would this make sense in terms of IEs?

Thank you so much for replying. Because ILE-Ti have better Si and Ti (people with NVLD have extreme weakness in Fe, Se, Si, and Ti) than ILE-Ne do. ILE-Ti have better spatial reasoning, perception, and awareness and object awareness than ILE-Ne; in those ways, ILE-Ne are closer in that regard to the average person with NVLd. ILE-Ti are more likely to be in regular jobs (say, working at a grocery store) than ILE-Ne, and if someone can't figure out how to use the automated check out line all on their own as some with NVLD would have trouble doing, then an ILE-Ti would be frustrated having to constantly help them. ILE-Ti don't like being asked by people how to use a GUI, but they're more likely to be asked by relatives to do that an ILE-Ne would be at least partly because ILE-Ti would be more likely to be thought of as highly proficient at using a GUI (which they are), so demands for help by people who don't know how to use them, can't figure out, hit ILE-Ti more frequently and harder than they do ILE-Ne.

Although the Ne part isn't quite as relevant to NVLD, ILE-Ne's Ne actually doesn't even work as well as the ILE-Ti's Ne (and their Ti, Si, and even Fe are worse and of course their Se).. ILE-Ti's work is more original, more financially successful, more popular (though not in all cases), looks better, their selections of everything look better, sound better, can do analysis of science well (the Ne type is nowhere near as good at that), they're better at appearing tender when they want to, they're better at noticing originality, more logical, and more successful and more socially skilled, the logical type is also less serious in demeanor, and is goofier, has better coordination, plays with peoples' minds more (the Ne subtype appears more definite and serious when expressing their views, while you're more likely to get an impression of playfulness or gentle, cute irritation from the Ti subtype when they're pissed off or saying something that pisses people off), looks more feminine/better/more beautiful, the Ti type always has an above average tibia to overall height ratio, has smoother movements on average, great spatial awareness, and has great awareness of visual details in their environment. The ILE-Ti and ILE-Ne are totally different creatures from each other. The omission of that subtype system from the original model A was a huge omission. Gulenko's 4 subtype system isn't very good. I don't know how you it could be that hard to notice the differences between ILE-Ne and ILE-Ti. They shouldn't even be called subtypes really, just types. They're that different from each other.

If you’re going to describe such a specific kind of type experiences which most people probably wouldn’t have noticed, that doesn’t even make obvious intuitive sense either, then at least provide your own clear structural explanation for it.

Well, of course most people probably wouldn't have noticed; most people don't even know what socionics is. Everyone should understand it, but they don't. As for a clear structural explanation, well, see above. Also, look at the videos of the ILE-Ne and compare them to those of the ILE-Ti. https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...es-with-Videos (all of those listed under ILE seem to be ILE with the right subtypes indicated). Stoya and Anna Kendrick are ILE-Ti. Hannah Arendt is also an ILE-Ti. Will Smith might be an ILE-Ti, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Thank you for replying. I hope you'll be satisfied with my reply. If not, I'll be glad to try to explain more, or answer more questions.

[sbbds]

ILE-Ne's Ne actually doesn't even work as well as the ILE-Ti's Ne (and their Ti, Si, and even Fe are worse and of course their Se).. ILE-Ti's work is more original, more financially successful, more popular (though not in all cases), looks better, their selections of everything look better, sound better, can do analysis of science well (the Ne type is nowhere near as good at that), they're better at appearing tender when they want to, they're better at noticing originality, more logical, and more successful and more socially skilled, the logical type is also less serious in demeanor, and is goofier, has better coordination, plays with peoples' minds more (the Ne subtype appears more definite and serious when expressing their views, while you're more likely to get an impression of playfulness or gentle, cute irritation from the Ti subtype when they're pissed off or saying something that pisses people off), looks more feminine/better/more beautiful, the Ti type always has an above average tibia to overall height ratio, has smoother movements on average, great spatial awareness, and has great awareness of visual details in their environment.

That’s unsound theoretically.

[Disturbed]

That’s unsound theoretically.

OK. But why?

I know you've realized I'm an idiot. Sorry.

[sbbds]

OK. But why?

I know you've realized I'm an idiot. Sorry.

ILE-Ne should have better Ne and Fe than the Ti subtype.

[mr provocateur]

ILE-Ti - The Übermensch

[Disturbed]

ILE-Ne should have better Ne and Fe than the Ti subtype.

Thank you for replying. According to theory they should, but in reality they certainly don't have better Ne nor Fe. ILE-Ti have better Ne and Fe and Si and Se and Ti and Te, they're at least as good with relationships, some ILE-Ti are horrible at relationships but some are quite good with them, so their other functions actually help them mimic Fi and get around Fi-PoLR better too (although ILE-Ne do try to emotionally engage with strangers more but they also frequently massively fail at it). ILE-Ti have better visual perception and are more aware of what's going on around them so they can read facial expressions much better, with more precision, better accuracy at detecting nuances, and more are more aware of peoples' moods and have better logic as to how to manipulate them, so that's why they have better Fe)... that helps them make up for having little or no affective empathy since their cognitive empathy is so great (especially if they practice). Cognitive empathy is actually more useful because it's more needed to make people happy and affective empathy is sometimes harmful (although I'm sure you already thought that). In fact, a psychiatrist or any scientist with high cognitive empathy who wants to solve a problem perfectly is a lot better than the psychiatrist that has moderate or less than moderate cognitive empathy (e.g., doesn't understand the patient's unhappiness because the medicine is causing severe discomfort, and that may not be expressed enough for that psychiatrist to see it) and is feeling the patient's emotions more than the patient notices their emotions themselves to the point that what they do winds up causing the patient more unhappiness. ILE-Ti psychiatrists, since they value Si, are more likely to understand a patient who values Si or has strong Si than an EIE psychiatrist and if the ILE really wants to solve the problem, then them not having affective empathy shouldn't be a problem for any patient who is being reasonable. The ILE-Ti is good at psych analysis, the EIE is usually not (some are okay at it, but even then most don't like doing it and when they do it takes them forever).

ILE-Ti is more aware of possibilities and is more perceptive of originality. Having good Si and Ti helps people perceive originality well.

[sbbds]

What’s the point of using the subtype system at all then if it’s obviously invalid? You’re basically just saying more awesome people overall are ILE-Ti @Disturbed .

[Disturbed]

What’s the point of using the subtype system at all then if it’s obviously invalid? You’re basically just saying more awesome people overall are ILE-Ti @Disturbed .

It's not invalid, the differences are there based on VI (including body parts as I mentioned above, ILE-Ti always have above average knee height length and above average knee height to overall height ratio for their gender, ILE-Ne don't always) and the way they think quite differently from each other. It's not so cut and dry as "the Ne subtype has better Ne as Ne should be stronger since it's known as the Ne subtype". The system needs better nomenclature for sure, but it's based upon real differences in cognition, behavior, and physical appearance.

Sorry. Thank you for replying.

[redundantoxymoron]

Thank you so much for replying. Because ILE-Ti have better Si and Ti (people with NVLD have extreme weakness in Si and Ti) than ILE-Ne do. ILE-Ti have better spatial reasoning, perception, and awareness and object awareness than ILE-Ne; in those ways, ILE-Ne are closer in that regard to the average person with NVLd. ILE-Ti are more likely to be in regular jobs (say, working at a grocery store) than ILE-Ne, and if someone can't figure out how to use the automated check out line all on their own as some with NVLD would have trouble doing, then an ILE-Ti would be frustrated having to constantly help them. ILE-Ti don't like being asked by people how to use a GUI, but they're more likely to be asked by relatives to do that an ILE-Ne would be at least partly because ILE-Ti would be more likely to be thought of as highly proficient at using a GUI (which they are), so demands for help by people who don't know how to use them, can't figure out, hit ILE-Ti more frequently and harder than they do ILE-Ne.

Although the Ne part isn't quite as relevant to NVLD, ILE-Ne's Ne actually doesn't even work as well as the ILE-Ti's Ne (and their Ti, Si, and even Fe are worse and of course their Se).. ILE-Ti's work is more original, more financially successful, more popular (though not in all cases), looks better, their selections of everything look better, sound better, can do analysis of science well (the Ne type is nowhere near as good at that), they're better at appearing tender when they want to, they're better at noticing originality, more logical, and more successful and more socially skilled, the logical type is also less serious in demeanor, and is goofier, has better coordination, plays with peoples' minds more (the Ne subtype appears more definite and serious when expressing their views, while you're more likely to get an impression of playfulness or gentle, cute irritation from the Ti subtype when they're pissed off or saying something that pisses people off), looks more feminine/better/more beautiful, the Ti type always has an above average tibia to overall height ratio, has smoother movements on average, great spatial awareness, and has great awareness of visual details in their environment.

As @sbbds already pointed out, the underlined is theoretically unsound.

Separately, I would be curious what the theoretical justification is for different bodily proportions based on type/subtype.

Also, curious why you think "Ne subtype appears more definite and serious when expressing their views" whereas Ti subtype is less so, because that is exactly backwards of what theory would predict. Rational subtype will be more definitive for sure, if not also more serious.

The bolded part seems vaguely and only partially theoretically plausible to me, and unlike you, I'll bother to explain why. If the ILE-Ti is taken as a contact subtype, this means they would have strengthened Te demonstrative. Others would notice (since the demonstrative is often more visible to others than to the person themselves) ILE-Ti's skill in Te more so than ILE-Ne's skill in Te. Then ILE-Ti may get more requests for help with Te stuff (GUI/software help is one example).

Because this is Te stuff, it's not going to be valued by either subtype, and requests for a strong, but unvalued, element would indeed become irritating. But I don't see how it would irritate one subtype more than the other, except as a byproduct of the Ti subtype being asked more (which is redundant with the point addressed already in first paragraph). Basically, why do you think that ILE-Ti more than ILE-Ne don't like being asked how to use GUI.

[Disturbed]

As @sbbds already pointed out, the underlined is theoretically unsound.

OK.

Separately, I would be curious what the theoretical justification is for different bodily proportions based on type/subtype.

It's observable. I've observed it.

Also, curious why you think "Ne subtype appears more definite and serious when expressing their views" whereas Ti subtype is less so, because that is exactly backwards of what theory would predict. Rational subtype will be more definitive for sure, if not also more serious.

It is backwards of what theory would predict, but the Ne type is more obstinate when arguing, they change course or change it into a joke less than the Ti type does. So theory you're thinking about is not predictive, but things can certainly be observed. I should've said definitive. Thanks for pointing that out.

The bolded part seems vaguely and only partially theoretically plausible to me, and unlike you, I'll bother to explain why. If the ILE-Ti is taken as a contact subtype, this means they would have strengthened Te demonstrative. Others would notice (since the demonstrative is often more visible to others than to the person themselves) ILE-Ti's skill in Te more so than ILE-Ne's skill in Te. Then ILE-Ti may get more requests for help with Te stuff (GUI/software help is one example).

Haha OK. They do have strengthened Te, but just because the theory says contact functions are strengthened and contact ones weakened doesn't mean that they actually are with all subtypes. In the ILE-Ti's case, they are more proficient with all the functions except Fi (compared to the ILE-Ne).

Because this is Te stuff, it's not going to be valued by either subtype, and requests for a strong, but unvalued, element would indeed become irritating. But I don't see how it would irritate one subtype more than the other, except as a byproduct of the Ti subtype being asked more (which is redundant with the point addressed already in first paragraph). Basically, why do you think that ILE-Ti more than ILE-Ne don't like being asked how to use GUI.

Because they're asked more and because they're more concerned with being taken advantage of than the ILE-Ne due to weaker Fi.

Thank you. Sorry.

[redundantoxymoron]

OK.


It's observable. I've observed it.

It is backwards of what theory would predict, but the Ne type is more obstinate when arguing, they change course or change it into a joke less than the Ti type does. So theory you're thinking about is not predictive, but things can certainly be observed. I should've said definitive. Thanks for pointing that out.

Haha OK. They do have strengthened Te, but just because the theory says contact functions are strengthened and contact ones weakened doesn't mean that they actually are with all subtypes. In the ILE-Ti's case, they are more proficient with all the functions except Fi (compared to the ILE-Ne).

Because they're asked more and because they're more concerned with being taken advantage of than the ILE-Ne due to weaker Fi.

Thank you. Sorry.

lmao alright. So basically you're just relying on your own observations here with no theoretical, or empirical for that matter, backing.

So you have nothing. Good to know. lol

The bolded one is plausible. But not with your rationale. It'd be that ILE-Ti has strengthened T and suppressed F, so suppressed Fi.

And "Thank you. Sorry." is hilarious.

[sbbds]

It's not invalid, the differences are there based on VI (including body parts as I mentioned above, ILE-Ti always have above average knee height length and above average knee height to overall height ratio for their gender, ILE-Ne don't always) and the way they think quite differently from each other. It's not so cut and dry as "the Ne subtype has better Ne as Ne should be stronger since it's known as the Ne subtype". The system needs better nomenclature for sure, but it's based upon real differences in cognition, behavior, and physical appearance.

Sorry. Thank you for replying.

Is there a single soul out there who has claimed the same or agrees with you? The longer legs/shins thing sounds especially ridiculous.

[Disturbed]

Is there a single soul out there who has claimed the same or agrees with you? The longer legs/shins thing sounds especially ridiculous.

Thank you for replying. Victor Gulenko wrote that the ILE-Ti had long fingers and legs. But I had noticed that before I read what he wrote.

But it makes sense since ILE-Ti have the highest IQ of all the types on average, knee height length of all the types on average, knee height to overall height ratio of all the types on average, and a higher than average rate of type O rh- blood type and matrilineal left-handedness, and since high IQ, left-handedness, type O blood, and knee height length are all protective factors against late onset Alzheimer's Disease. I don't believe it's possible for ILE-Ti to get late onset Alzheimer's disease; their life expectancy is lower than the average and they're a type that is significantly more likely than most people to die from myocardial infarction. Few of them live to the age where they can get late on-set AD.

I'm sorry.

[redundantoxymoron]

lmao I'm thinking the same thing, what a bizarre user

[sbbds]

Victor Gulenko wrote that the ILE-Ti had long fingers and legs. But I had noticed that before I read what he wrote.

But it makes sense since ILE-Ti have the highest IQ of all the types on average, knee height length of all the types on average, knee height to overall height ratio of all the types on average, and a higher than average rate of type O rh- blood type and matrilineal left-handedness, and since high IQ, left-handedness, type O blood, and knee height length are all protective factors against late onset Alzheimer's Disease. I don't believe it's possible for ILE-Ti to get late onset Alzheimer's disease because of that and because their life expectancy is lower than the average and they're a type that is significantly more likely to die from myocardial infarction. Very few of them live long enough.

I'm sorry. Thank you for replying.

LOL. Okay.jpg. Such specific, prodigious insights. What do you type yourself as btw?

[redundantoxymoron]

@sbbds clearly SEI-Fe. I was going to make a joke about that P

[Disturbed]

LOL. Okay.jpg. Such specific, prodigious insights. What do you type yourself as btw?

Sorry. I believe I am LSI-Ti or ESI-Fi. The first time I tested as LII-Ne (I don't remember if it was 1 or 2 Ne), the second time I tested as SEI-Fe (I don't remember if it was 1 or 2 Fe), but I don't think either of those are right.

[sbbds]

Sorry. I believe I am LSI-Ti or ESI-Fi. The first time I tested as LII-Ne (I don't remember if it was 1 or 2 Ne), the second time I tested as SEI-Fe (I don't remember if it was 1 or 2 Fe), but I don't think either of those are right.

I think you are ILE-Ne.

[Rebelondeck]

Tolerance or frustration isn't type related. They have more to with how one was raised, influenced and educated. I'm sure that an ILE who was raised in a positive environment with a person with NVLD would have a much different attitude than one not. As well, egocentric people seem more intolerant of others, and I've seen those in all types.....

a.k.a. I/O

[Grognak]

Victor Gulenko wrote that the ILE-Ti had long fingers and legs. But I had noticed that before I read what he wrote.

But it makes sense since ILE-Ti have the highest IQ of all the types on average, knee height length of all the types on average, knee height to overall height ratio of all the types on average, and a higher than average rate of type O rh- blood type and matrilineal left-handedness, and since high IQ, left-handedness, type O blood, and knee height length are all protective factors against late onset Alzheimer's Disease. I don't believe it's possible for ILE-Ti to get late onset Alzheimer's disease because of that and because their life expectancy is lower than the average and they're a type that is significantly more likely to die from myocardial infarction. Very few of them live long enough.

I'm sorry. Thank you for replying.

Alzheimer's disease is a prionlike disease, meaning it's caused by the misfolding of a protein and accumulations of toxic proteins. Because of this, its cause is sporadic which means it cannot be predicted like obesity or osteoporosis can be. Because it is sporadic there is no correlation between lifetime risk of Alzheimer's disease and body type, IQ, etc....

[Disturbed]

Alzheimer's disease is a prionlike disease, meaning it's caused by the misfolding of a protein and accumulations of toxic proteins. Because of this, its cause is sporadic which means it cannot be predicted like obesity or osteoporosis can be. Because it is sporadic there is no correlation between lifetime risk of Alzheimer's disease and body type, IQ, etc....

Zero correlation? The probability of that is low. could be tiny correlations or there could be large ones. I think there are large ones

[Alomoes]

Good to know. My mom actually criticizes people for this in particular. She's definitely some kind of alpha NT or related. I get real confused at how she can do that without considering my nonverbals, which should likely point to confusion or frustration. This is why I believe she is SF along with other things irrelevant to the issue. Like, she has issues understanding people, gets incredibly angry when they screw up, and then complains. It is an endless cycle.

The probability of a neuro degenerative disease which is not present at all at birth of actually affecting IQ is 0%. Is alzheimer's present at birth? I don't believe the degeneration occurs until later on in life. Risk factors may be there, but that isn't neurological degeneration.