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Thread: The discomfort of disagreeing with the group.

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    Default The discomfort of disagreeing with the group.



    Which types or quadras do you think get easier or harder to disagree with the group?

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    Fe pays attention to the group opinions, Fi is independent of the group opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Fe pays attention to the group opinions, Fi is independent of the group opinions.
    true. But I think group conditions even logicals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Fe pays attention to the group opinions, Fi is independent of the group opinions.
    It depends IMO. Put types like xEEs in logic group conformity experiments. They will be full of self-doubt. Then put LxIs in them. They will be mostly self-confident.

    I think it basically depends on the type of conformity @Tommy . Logical types will be more likely to mindlessly go along with group morals or social behaviors. Ethical types will be more likely to mindlessly conform to group practical solutions and procedures.

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    Fe is group values and Te is group think > therefore, all people are consciously or subconsciously beholden to the tribe, though I'd say that those with Fi or Ti in their ego block are the most ostensibly resistant to conforming to the group, in that they are more inclined to rely on their own subjective judgements and evaluations. But a part of their cognitive growth and development involves them gradually caring [with greater consciousness] about what others objectively think and feel concerning their subjective thoughts and feelings.

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    Each type or moreover each individual finds it easier to disagree with the group in different ways. In overall, negativist IJ types (LII and ESI) find it easier to disagree with the group more than others.

    Some types disagree with the group more if they don't belong to that group, if they don't have to spend a lot of time with that group afterwards. Some types may disagree more but they might keep it to themselves and comply more on the surface. Some types may disagree a lot but not in away that gets them to shun away from group. Some types are ok to be shunned away from the whole group, however, they form their own little groups and they are less likely to disagree with their own circle.

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    Aristocratic quadras hold group above. They will measure themselves against external standards. This is long term conformity which can be observed in span of many years. Nothing to do with socionics ethics.
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    Liking of Heretic 007's post was accidental.

    So far groupthink has been associated with:

    Fe
    Te
    Aristocracy

    So ESIs and LIIs win. @myresearch, group consensus has confirmed your supposition!
    Every man is as God made him, ay, and often worse. - Cervantes

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    Also H and C subtypes will decrease conformity because harmonizing and creative have more democratic attitude whereas dominant and normalizing will have more aristocratic attitude. For example LII with normalizing/dominant will conform more with group than creative/harmonizing.
    Measuring you right now

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    Te groupthink. Didn't even consider that. Examples, maybe:

    - I support the idea that humans contribute to global warming because I see scientific consensus about it and finding out for myself would probably require years of research. I assume many Ti valuers who aren't scientists also support the idea but might frame the reasoning differently?
    - when it comes to something like socionics that can't be pointed to directly, I see the consensus as determining what it is, even if it's stupid. I still might argue a certain point even though it seems like a lot of people disagree (like Fi isn't conformance to a group value system lol)

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    I don't think Te is group think. It's practical logic, business logic, or the logic of external things, objects. Otherwise is like saying that Se is social force or Ne is social potential. I don't think that's what the e means. Its not e=group, i=I. Its E extrernal, I internal. Object/subject, etc.
    In the same sense, Fi, is ethics of relations. What's good and ethical for me and the feelings of one other in a relationship.

    Anyway, Fe has been associated with group or societal values, but it doesn't happen if, for example, they are among ppl with opposite values (one beta NF among Deltas or one alpha SF interacting with Gammas). I mean, Fe is not social values, is ethics of emotions. Then, I've seen alphas especially SF valuing stuff just because is a tradition or because its trendy in society (and pushing things and ppl to conform to that norm). Betas don't go too much for trendy/untrendy but more about them imposing their emotions to others (sometimes a group). And ruling through physical force or emotions.



    Extroverted logic deals with the external activity of objects, i.e the how, what and where of events, activity or work, behaviour, algorithms, movement, and actions. The how, what and where of events would be the external activity of events, activity or work would be the external activity of a machine or individual(s) and algorithms describe the external activity of objects.

    Since Te perceives objective, factual information outside the subject (external activity) and analyzes the rationale and functionality of what is happening or being done or said. "Quality" to a Te type is how well an object performs the functions for which it was made. A Te type can judge a person to be "effective" if he is able to achieve his purposes without wasting any energy or producing unwanted side effects. So Te types basically evaluate people and things using the same criteria.
    Introverted ethics is an introverted, rational, and static information element. It is also called Fi, R, relational ethics, or white ethics. Fi is generally associated with the ability to gain an implicit sense of the subjective 'distance' between two people, and make judgments based off of said thing. Types with valued Fi strive to make and maintain close, personal relationships with their friends and family. They value sensitivity to others' feelings, and occasionally will make their innermost feelings and sentiments known in order to test the possibility of creating closeness with others.

    Also, these types convey emotions in terms of how they were affected by something (such as "I did not like that"), rather than an extroverted ethics (Fe) approach that would describe the object itself without clear reference to the subject involved (such as "That sucked"). Much of their decisions are based on how they themselves, or others in relation to them personally, feel in contrast to considering how "the big picture" is affected (such as groups of people).

    Extroverted ethics is an extroverted, rational, and dynamic information element. It is also called Fe, E, the ethics of emotions, or black ethics. Fe is generally associated with the ability to recognize and convey (i.e. make others experience) passions, moods, and emotional states, generate excitement, liveliness, and feelings, get emotionally involved in activities and emotionally involve others, recognize and describe emotional interaction between people and groups, and build a sense of community and emotional unity.

    Types that value Fe like creating a visible atmosphere of camaraderie with other people. They enjoy a loose atmosphere where anything goes, where people don't have to watch too carefully what they say for fear of offending others. This means these types try not to be too thin-skinned, taking jokes with a grain of salt. However, they are very conscious of the fact that the way something is said is very important to how it will be received, so they tend to add emphasis, embellishments, and exaggerations here and there to keep people engaged. The best way to say something is highly dependent on the situation and the implied purpose of the exchange, so of course levity is not appropriate in some situations.

    Even after explosive arguments, these types find it hard to hold grudges, and can tolerate people they in principle don't like, as long as the situation is primarily social and doesn't require too close contact. They prefer misgivings to be out in the open; they believe that the silent treatment is one of the worst things you can do to a person, and only aggravates the underlying problem.
    Last edited by Tommy; 01-28-2020 at 08:13 PM.

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    Yeah ftr I don't think Te is "groupthink" per se to be clear, but I could see something like "the evidence suggests x because it's agreed upon by scientists" being perceived that way because it implies not getting the scratch pad out and doing the math yourself. And I do think that's a Te style rationale (maybe when it's weak we rely on the scientists more to do the thinking than when it's strong lol)

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    Everyone is subject to groupthink irrespective of Socionics type. Humans are social animals and have relied on groups to survive since their beginning. To think one is not subject to groupthink creates a blindspot that prevents objective thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Aristocratic quadras hold group above. They will measure themselves against external standards. This is long term conformity which can be observed in span of many years. Nothing to do with socionics ethics.
    Aristocracy and democracy are different kinds of groups. Still groups though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Aristocracy and democracy are different kinds of groups. Still groups though.
    Well if you are going to look for agreeable in a group settings as in present moment just look for IEE... anyway just think of each quadra in a prison which forms a gang. Alphas would be just spread out doing whatever, betas would stick together forming hierarchy, gammas would run some sort of drug business on their own while deltas would be doing designated roles.
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    I disagree. Disagreeing with the group is fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post


    Which types or quadras do you think get easier or harder to disagree with the group?
    Nazis who follow orders.

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    Everybody knows disagreeing with the group is honorable. As a CONCEPT, lmao.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Everybody knows disagreeing with the group is honorable. As a CONCEPT, lmao.
    Pfft, agreeing with the group is always wrong! If someone says "no stealing," you steal!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    I don't think Te is group think. It's practical logic, business logic, or the logic of external things, objects. Otherwise is like saying that Se is social force or Ne is social potential. I don't think that's what the e means. Its not e=group, i=I. Its E extrernal, I internal. Object/subject, etc.
    1.) I think this interpretation is a bit too literal.

    a.] Irrationality (in this case, Se and Ne) is a direct and unmediated perception of information, and rationality (Te and Fe), mediated judgment. Se and Ne observe the outer world, whereas Fe and Te react to the outer world (people, places, things, events) by applying ethical or logical evaluations/assessments, which tend towards more explicit engagement and interaction with human based systems (e.g., social etiquette, bureaucracy, etc...). Therefore, Se/Ne and Fe/Te, though extraverted, shouldn’t be expected to come with the same environmental ramifications.

    b.] Moreover, “group” is used to invoke the collectivist mind set, where the group has its own thoughts and values different from those of the individual members. In this way, objectivity and being objective (truth uninfluenced by personal, subjective feelings and opinions) is the paradigm.

    This is what Jung has to say about the extraverted rational:

    “The moral laws which govern his action coincide with the corresponding claims of society, i.e. with the generally valid moral viewpoint.”
    “The rationality of both types is orientated objectively, and depends upon objective data. Their reasonableness corresponds with what passes as reasonable from the collective standpoint.”
    Why are flowers called flowers? Because we have collectively agreed to refer to them that way [within the linguistic system that is English]. A rose is a type of flower. That is a fact [and an aspect of Te involves accumulating objective facts], which is dependent on a degree of consensus concerning the external qualities of a rose and flower and how they interact with each other. Te makes the external world more logical by way of understanding it objectively, creating standardized definitions, methods, plans, policies, rules and procedures, with the expectation that everyone will adhere to them.

    It’s interesting that you don’t see Te as a [rather reductionist] form of “group think” and yet you quote other people’s definitions of the IEs. Lol A Ti user would be more inclined to speak from their own creative understanding, rather than rely on the thoughts of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    Anyway, Fe has been associated with group or societal values, but it doesn't happen if, for example, they are among ppl with opposite values (one beta NF among Deltas or one alpha SF interacting with Gammas). I mean, Fe is not social values, is ethics of emotions.
    But these are connected; Fe social values are the logical extension/off shoot of the ethics of emotions or ethical estimations of observable actions. If an aspect of Fe involves elevating moods in order to create a bond of shared (typically) “good” feeling or communal morale, and one is able to discern what actions make people feel a particular way (because they can detect the ‘emotional excitations’ of other people), doesn’t it make sense that, on a broader scale, Fe valuers might want to instill and perpetuate over arching social values that lend to good feeling and emotional harmony for everyone? For example, “Thank You,” “Good Morning,” “Happy Holidays” are all socially pervasive, widely accepted ways of engendering a positive feeling.

    If a strong Fe valuer went into an environment where saying “Happy Holidays” with a broad smile was considered rude and offensive and generated bad feeling, the Fe valuer would pick up on that emotional feedback, and not do that within that space, even if they still believed that saying "Happy Holidays" was a generally good and appropriate way to greet others.

    Jung buttresses this point:

    "An accommodation to objective data, such as we have described, must, of course, seem a complete adaptation to the extraverted view, since from this standpoint no other criterion exists. But from a higher point of view, it is by no means granted that the standpoint of objectively given, facts is the normal one under all circumstances. Objective conditions may be either temporarily or locally abnormal. An individual who is accommodated to such can certainly conform to the abnormal style of his surroundings, but, in relation to the universally valid laws of life."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    Which types or quadras do you think get easier or harder to disagree with the group?
    If you ask this about situations like in the video, then I don't see how it has something to do with quadras or type. It's just human instinct. How I see what's happening :

    First, as a participant I would feel a cognitive dissonance between what I see as true and what my "social heuristics" tell me to be true. Basically I would think something like "what's the chance of everyone being wrong? super lowww". Second, I would be afraid of the groups reaction of course, that's a basic social instinct, that makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. Your instinct should tell you to agree with someone stronger than you, and well 4-5 humans are definitely stronger!
    In a next step, my brain will make up a bullshit explanation for why I don't see the same as others and then I'll feel good about myself again : "maybe what I see is an illusion? Man, I haven't drunk enough coffee this morning...Or do I need new glasses?"

    All this is kinda instinctive and super fast. Only in a next step will I resist this if it's too obvious that what the group says is BS. I think going against the group has more to do with self-confidence and assertiveness than type in this example.

    In real life everything is more complicated. In this experiment there is no real social consequence, nor are any of the participant's interests at stake so he has no real incentive to go for/against the majority. In real life, groupthink arises when you could suffer from speaking up. Moreover, how you act also depends on your position in the group, the groups power structure, etc...

    ******
    Social heuristics are actually really convenient, they allow you to reduce the energy spent in thinking/searching for ressources and allow you to make less errors!(At least it would make sense from evolution that we gain from it more than we loose)
    It's the same as when you walk in the street and everyone looks up, you just wanna see what they are looking at. You're like "this has to be something interesting!".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_heuristics
    Only there occasionally

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Pfft, agreeing with the group is always wrong! If someone says "no stealing," you steal!
    Depends on the situation. Anyone can tell you not to steal but I dare ya to try and steal a gun from a vendor at a gun convention or try to shoot the place up. Reasons that's never happened and they are pretty damned good.

    As for being uncomfortable in disagreeing with a group? Never really felt it TBH. I'd gladly stand against a whole mob in the hopes I could convince them to see reason. If they kill me for that, well, I tried. Whatever happens next is 100 percent on them. I tried to warn em', but they wouldn't listen. Thus, they kinda have that bad end coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Depends on the situation. Anyone can tell you not to steal but I dare ya to try and steal a gun from a vendor at a gun convention or try to shoot the place up. Reasons that's never happened and they are pretty damned good.

    As for being uncomfortable in disagreeing with a group? Never really felt it TBH. I'd gladly stand against a whole mob in the hopes I could convince them to see reason. If they kill me for that, well, I tried. Whatever happens next is 100 percent on them. I tried to warn em', but they wouldn't listen. Thus, they kinda have that bad end coming.
    I hope you realize I was joking in response to another post, but you can't always tell on the Internet.

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    @ OP, I don't know.

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    Eh it's complicated. Depending on the environment and people you're with, you can be either loved or hated for not going along with the group. I would probably make a bad cop or whatever, not because I don't have a good moral core but because a lot of what a police officer does is incredibly normal delta crap that I'm bad at and I think is 'fake' and actually a bit immoral myself. I don't really trust people that are super squeaky clean and normal, its rotten and sociopathic to me and they are just being manipulative to further their own goals. =/ If you are a true liberator liberal and free spirit sex lover I would loathe to be around people over the top normal as it would just seem like they would repress and scapegoat you every chance they get to improve their own careers...(nah not 'seem' that is definitely what those kind of people lol) but if you stick it out and ride through the pain you will hopefully be around people who will accept your 'weirdness' and unique perspective and think you are beautiful for it. or at least not hate you so much- which can be like the same thing if you are used to being oppressed.

    Most people are a mix of normal/weird qualities anyway- the people who are extremely weird (like cutting up people) and extremely normal (people who arrest people who cut people up) are both extremes of following the group vs overly rebellion that are rather offensive just due to how extreme they both are , to me- and a regular, relateable person will have both qualities anyway just not as harsh as those two things. But in society and most of the world, we are all too harshly put in the 'weirdo deserves to be punished' group and the 'You're normal so you get to stay' group.

    Anyway it's not usually the ones obviously weird that are truly the dangerous ones anyway, its the ones that know how to appear so incredibly normal that it must obviously be an illusion. If somebody is openly being a little bad- it should actually be *somewhat* encouraged as healthy - a kind of shadow thing to heal and transform out of. They shouldn't be encouraged to stay that way, but it's a transformative thing. Not everything 'bad' should get repressed and sugar coated into this faux normie thing... that is fucked up beyond words. It's actually not 'good' it's evil of the evils. IT'S LIKE THAT SOUTHPARK EPISODE WHERE THE REAL BAD GUYS WERE THE CUTE INNOCENT-LOOKING ONES AND THE GOOD GUYS WERE LIKE UGLY AND PRIMITIVE LOOKING. CAN'T WE ALL RELATE TO THAT? OR THE BUFFY COMIC WHERE OZ TAUGHT THE GROUP THAT THE ONLY WAY TO TRULY FIGHT EVIL WAS TO LET IT PASS THROUGH YOU.

    Some people are just way ahead of their time as well. Lots of people who were formerly ostracized, "the group" has over time respected and even revered them. It sadly doesn't seem to happen in the moment that much- but that is the price us Trailblazers set.

    "Everybody you wanted to be, probably started off like me." <3

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9cNHtA8-Wc
    Last edited by BandD; 02-01-2020 at 09:43 AM.

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