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Thread: 4 Natural Elements?

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    cactagon's Avatar
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    Question 4 Natural Elements?

    Purely for speculative fun (alpha bullshit):

    8 information aspects, 2 for each natural element.

    Fire = Se & __Te?
    Earth = Ti & __Ni?
    Wind = Ne $ __Fe?
    Water = Fi & __Si?

    Dante Alighieri describes yielding to lust, to passion, as a torrent of glued-together bodies in a portion of Hell, blowing about for eternity.

    Water takes up the volume of that which contains it. Water adjusts, like Si. Much like Fi, a "body of water," how large it is, doesn't express how "deep" or how "intense" it is. "Still waters run deep"

    Se seemed obvious, Se pisses itself off, it feeds into its energy, it devours.

    Ti is stable and static like the crystalline structure of Earth's minerals. Ni is "the one true path" among all the possible, virtual ones. A sense of stability (albeit Ni is dynamic...crystal balls are used to divine the future...methane fumes also work).


    Comments/observations?
    Last edited by cactagon; 12-19-2019 at 04:14 AM.

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    Typically, Intuition is associated with Fire, Sensation with Earth, Thinking with Air, and Feeling with Water.


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    I would say:

    Fire = Feeling
    Earth = sensing
    Air = thinking
    Water= Intuition
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    All of the elements can correlate to any information element depending on the exact scenario and feature that you are focusing on.

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    Alpha - Air
    Beta - Fire
    Gamma - Water
    Delta - Earth

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    How did you arrive at those conclusions? Which of the 8 information aspects correlates specifically with which of the 4 natural elements?

    @mclane kinda had the idea, I like the positive/negative additions to each of the 8, making 16, but how would they fall
    into the natural 4?

    @number9large, if the elements were broken into quadrants, switching the gamma/delta might be better, gammas are more stable, "tough love" is what they show, but water adjusts and conforms (Si), similar to how deltas adapt.

    @Chakram, the "the exact scenario" would be hypothetical, and the "feature that you are focusing on" would be the intrinsic qualities of each information aspect, considering the intrinsic qualities of the 4 natural elements, and irrespective of the concept of relativity that Einstein taught us over 100 years ago
    @Heretic007, duly noted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    How did you arrive at those conclusions? Which of the 8 information aspects correlates specifically with which of the 4 natural elements?

    @mclane kinda had the idea, I like the positive/negative additions to each of the 8, making 16, but how would they fall
    into the natural 4?
    If you want to limit it to the classical four elements, it would work like this:

    Earth: +Si, -Te/+Ti
    Fire: -Se
    Water: +Se/-Si, -Fi/+Fe,+Ni/-Ne
    Air: -Ti/+Te, +Fi/-Fe, -Ni/+Ne

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    How did you arrive at those conclusions? Which of the 8 information aspects correlates specifically with which of the 4 natural elements?

    @mclane kinda had the idea, I like the positive/negative additions to each of the 8, making 16, but how would they fall
    into the natural 4?

    @number9large, if the elements were broken into quadrants, switching the gamma/delta might be better, gammas are more stable, "tough love" is what they show, but water adjusts and conforms (Si), similar to how deltas adapt.

    @Chakram, the "the exact scenario" would be hypothetical, and the "feature that you are focusing on" would be the intrinsic qualities of each information aspect, considering the intrinsic qualities of the 4 natural elements, and irrespective of the concept of relativity that Einstein taught us over 100 years ago
    @Heretic007, duly noted.
    Si is more stable than Se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Si is more stable than Se
    I like turtles.

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    Se--> the water cycle, winter to summer, the monsoons, the heat waves, the forest fires, the sighted eagle, an eyeball, the black hole, the super nova, the orbits, a waterfall, the hurricane, the season, a sunburn, a pair of antlers smashing together, teeth, fins, arms and legs, a wolf's howl, a breeze moving through the leaves, source awareness, territory.

    Ni --> erosion markers, continental drift, geology morphology, tide lines, tree rings, cold hot pressure systems, soil composition, fossils, evolution of species, mutation, offspring, wrinkles, river oxbows.

    Ne--> clouds, herd camouflage, the hunter's vision of a goat on the other side of the valley, the plumage of a bird, smells of passing objects and creatures, river forks, mountain peaks, flowers to the bee, bees to the flower, flash fires, alchae on lichen, bacteria on a fallen apple, dandelion seeds, muscles and their movement, a boulder perched on a cliff, the dive of a hawk, bird song, the rising sun, air through a whale's blow hole, eggshells.

    Ti--> fundamental particles to biological individuals, the rays of the sun through space to the earth, ecology, niche, habitat, the circle of life, plum to seed, seed to bud, bud to plumb, digestion, energy transfer, behaviour, 5th element.

    Te-> Earth, water, air. Movement through them, why and how. Migration.

    Si-> ecosystems, the dance between life and abiotic fire air water and earth. Living organism's relation to those elements. Nesting, sleeping, resting, Tao.

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    air- intuition
    earth- sensing
    water- thinking
    fire- feeling

    ... maybe

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    earth = Si
    fire = Se
    air = Ne
    water = Ni

    So here duals are opposites, and

    hot = extroverted
    cold = introverted
    wet = intuition
    dry = sensing

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    Water adjusts, like Si.
    Si in itself just senses. There is no adjustment. The individual might adjust to the outer environement because of ignoring Se.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    I like turtles.

    Me too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Si in itself just senses. There is no adjustment. The individual might adjust to the outer environement because of ignoring Se.
    To quote the father of the term introverted sensing, "where the influence of the object does not entirely succeed, it encounters a benevolent neutrality, disclosing little sympathy, yet constantly striving to reassure and adjust. < https://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm >" To then quote yourself, Si "senses the inner reality, that is, the ever-changing psychic impressions evoked by the environment and the body < https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...28#post1424128 >." It's a stretch to say "there is no adjustment" and that it "just senses," since it responds too but internally.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    To quote the father of the term introverted sensing, where the influence of the object does not entirely succeed, it encounters a benevolent neutrality, disclosing little sympathy, yet constantly striving to reassure and adjust.
    Yes I know, but he is talking about the influence of the object. That's related to Se ignoring. Individuals of SxI type always shield themselves from that influence, because Si senses the influence from the subject.

    'To then quote yourself, Si senses the inner reality, that is, the ever-changing psychic impressions evoked by the environment and the body
    Yes, but "evoked by the environment" is a different thing though. It's not the direct influence of objects. Si only senses the inner world, but this inner world changes with the environment for non-socionics reasons. Ni is similar.

    It's a stretch to say "there is no adjustment" and that it "just senses," since it responds too but internally.
    There IS adjustment to objective influence as far as the individual is concerned. That's easy to see by observing SxI types. I agree with that. But that's not really what Si is about, but rather ignoring Se. All base functions come with a depreciation for the opposite attitude.

    It's always difficult to talk about Si because it shows very little of itself from the outside. The whole positive world of inner sensations is hidden.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by cactagon View Post
    Purely for speculative fun (alpha bullshit):

    8 information aspects, 2 for each natural element.

    Fire = Se & __Te?
    Earth = Ti & __Ni?
    Wind = Ne $ __Fe?
    Water = Fi & __Si?

    Dante Alighieri describes yielding to lust, to passion, as a torrent of glued-together bodies in a portion of Hell, blowing about for eternity.

    Water takes up the volume of that which contains it. Water adjusts, like Si. Much like Fi, a "body of water," how large it is, doesn't express how "deep" or how "intense" it is. "Still waters run deep"

    Se seemed obvious, Se pisses itself off, it feeds into its energy, it devours.

    Ti is stable and static like the crystalline structure of Earth's minerals. Ni is "the one true path" among all the possible, virtual ones. A sense of stability (albeit Ni is dynamic...crystal balls are used to divine the future...methane fumes also work).


    Comments/observations?
    the elements go better per quadra, since there are 4 and 8 information elements and 4 quadras.

    air = alpha
    fire = beta
    water = gamma
    earth = delta
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

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    i just saw that i alrdy posted that. eksdee
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

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    Airbending - Alpha
    Spiritual Projection - SF
    Flight - NT

    Waterbending - Gamma
    Bloodbending - NT
    Healing - SF

    Earthbending - Delta
    Metalbending - ST
    Lavabending - NF

    Firebending - Beta
    Lightningbending - NF
    Combustionbending - ST

    Only the Avatar can bend all 4 quadrants.

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    Using Final Fantasy VII elements (lol) I would put them as:

    Alpha: Lightning/Wind/Earth
    Beta: Lighting/Fire/Shadow
    Gamma: Water/Gravity/Poison
    Delta: Water/Holy/Ice

    I have philosophical explanations for my placements. They are also kind of very self-evident and 'duh', but since I narcissistically like to hear myself post (as I presume most of us do?) I will say for example I think Beta being Lightning, Fire and Shadow makes sense because it's about raw animalistic insight and Fe ethical warmth and just those lively moments where you actually feel alive as opposed to "trapped" by something- but then that's where the Shadow and punishment/karma of Beta comes in and also dealing with the natural aftermath of the price people naturally pay for being that alive and Se. The Shadow isn't always "evil" through like Delta mis-assumes because Dark Isn't Always Evil - one of my favorite TV tropes. And well Lightning, Fire and Shadow are stereotypically thought of as 'evil' anyway of course, and so Beta being thought of as the 'villain quadra' - a lot of it comes from that. The Shadow is mysterious, two-faced and enigmatic, as it's the type of element that can tempt people with untold freedom and power but only in reality shows them a prison. (what IEI is supposed to tell SLE when we stop staring at their dicks.)

    The 'this IEI is acting too much like an EII' thing comes from Fire of course, the warmth and empathy of Fire- but then Idea of Fire of course also sets the world on fire when an IEI or EIE's feelings are hurt. =) as it's not about one element but the elements working in trinity (obviously, but Captain Planet dorkily inspired people for a reason)

    Alpha is Lightning, Wind and Earth. Earth because they are in a way more grounded than Betas even tho they both value Fe and also it has this whimsical Wind-y 'let's just watch Anime and forget about shit yo' vibe to it more than any other quadra. Betas like to "mindlessly" indulge in art too but we can't help but have this weird serious tone with it even when we're actually not being all that serious. (same with Gammas too kinda, so maybe it's the Se) And Wind is flightly and la de dah like that but also can suffocate the oxygen from the room like if you piss off a narcissistic masculine ILE. Earth because Alphas have a lot more depth than people give them credit for and have real-ness to them despite the Wind-ness. They are kind of contradictory that way. ESEs can be bipolar where one minute they seem so like 'Ozzy and Harriet' and too ideal and Positive, then they get those moods where the Earth itself kind of crushes their soul and then Betas are like 'Lighten up already' since it's the quadra that corrects them. Oh and the Lightning part comes from their Ne valuing of course.

    Happy New Years y'all!

    Delta being Holy, Ice and Water is more than obvious. They are Heterosexual Angels in the sky preaching real cold morals at people, instead of just doing what gives a person a sense of rush... Ice and Holy together makes them kind of harsh and stern moralists. Although them being Water also gives them a certain amount of flexibility to navigate through things. IEEs probably cast Water spells the most though. Deltas are (as I grudgingly admit it) mostly correct about everything they say, but they are too cold and offensive (some of the abusive ones are straight up Draconian - although maybe that's more Gamma) with it is the issue- since their attempts at enforcing what's right often feel like it's drowning the other person even if that's not what they intend. Actually, some of the darker faux-light Deltas do very well intend that probably. /shrug The Water part gives them more real empathy and love though. ((as well as complexity))

    Deltas also have this reputation as being too "Grandpa Samey-Samey-" this comes from them valuing both Water and Ice- which are really similar. Well I guess, so is Fire/Lightning but not really the same way Water/Ice is. Basically in a campy way, Deltas are constantly just throwing vials of Holy Water at Beta Demons so it makes perfect logical sense even if you think I'm just being silly.

    Gamma is unique, kind of like the Red Headed Step Child but in a more popular way - because it's worldly and uppity so it gets the more unique elements Gravity and Poison since all Gammas do is like to talk down to you- even if the Gamma is mostly likable. There is often an aura of a Gamma taking the air out of somebody else- and so Gravity fits them and they are like 'come back down to earth and get a real job!' to other people but especially Betas - the quadra they like to correct. They are also Poison, because of Te and I gave Ashton (LIE) tons of Poison/Damage over time effects in 16types Adventures.

    I gave Gamma Water as well - because they also are not without warmth/empathy/love (especially some SEEs, like aww <3) it is just usually a bit more subdued than the way Fe valuing quadras do it. But it's also kind of twisted and unique/fun cuz it's mixed with Gravity and Poison, an interesting combination! Gamma is also Poison because it naturally corrupts & sadistically eats away at Earthy Alpha ideals in a creepy way.
    Last edited by BandD; 01-01-2021 at 05:51 AM.

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    @Tallmo : I agree with the "ignoring Se" part, since by positioning any element as Leading, what becomes ignored is the same element but of opposite orientation, as Jung laid out (Fi-lead ignores Fe). It is also hard to talk about introverted irrational elements as our inner worlds (full of amalgamated sensations and images) are largely hidden.

    @thehotelambush : Interesting. What of the rational elements, F/T?

    @Number 9 large : lol yeah you already posted your quadra analysis, which seems to have trickled down in its misunderstanding, despite how "the elements go better per quadra," since it is obvious that 4 elements can align easily with 4 quadras (or even temperaments and any other small group). The goal here, tho, was to align 8 IE with the "4 natural elements." Looking at my original lol-analysis in a different light, one that shines on dimensionality, "Fire" would = SLE (always on the move with 4D Se and Te), and "Water" = SEI (constantly adjusting and adapting with 4D Si and Fi). This route of course ignores half the socion and creates a duality in other types as opposed to others. Again, purely speculative bullshit here, but SLI might then be a juxtaposition of Earth/Water with Ti and Si (if Ti is Earth and Si is water).

    @BandD : I've never played FF, but Happy New Year
    Last edited by cactagon; 01-05-2021 at 03:20 AM. Reason: spacing

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