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Thread: 16types and Totalitarianism

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    Question 16types and Totalitarianism

    Everything in our official site statistics show most site visitors are guests, yet a publicly-viewable thread on the welfare state gets thrown down the memory hole. How can our guest readers trust us after that? The implications are much deeper. People like @Subteigh, @Socionics Is Not A Cult, and I say "the16types.info is not a cult" joking it is a cult. However, the joke is only funny because it's not entirely true. I believe the16types.info, or as it should now be called, the16types¨info (not-info rather than dot-info, because now there's no info on 16t), is better as an example of totalitarianism. @Singu, for all the pointlessness of debating and always bringing up Popper, at least is right in being viscerally alarmed by what he sees. Let's look at Hannah Arendt's words on the subject:











    While I believe giving people types is great, reducing people to types makes them unnecessary as people since they're just types and not even exemplars of types since they get "battle-typed." Likewise, most people here don't even care if socionics is true, which would be fine if they'd not also take it so seriously, or work on proving it if they did. I don't think anyone here believes much anything either. Of course, the whole deleting posts thing is a red flag. Additionally, not using other sites is totalizing by definition. Not even Facebook bans you from using Twitter.

    So, do you believe the16types.info is an example of totalitarianism? Why or why not?

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    Oh, I just found this article. What are your opinions of it? The book it discusses at the end won an award, so at the least we should heed it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

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    Landlord of The Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    I was going to say that Socionics doesn't actually enforce its rule on the general population and that people choose to be a part of it, but you make a good point about battle-typing. There is also the habit of pathologising people via Socionics despite not being qualified to do so and typing people we do not know, which are both contrary to basic standards of practice in the field of Psychology.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Oh, I just found this article. What are your opinions of it? The book it discusses at the end won an award, so at the least we should heed it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    That describes delta totalitarianism, but this site is incredibly not cost effective as I literally make 0 cents on it. I just want MBTI to die and want a place to meet misfits, like you and the other members of the forum.

    And aren't I very charismatic and handsome! Mao4 is the best banana emperor ever. I also cook a pretty mean Hong Shao Pork and my family is straight from Hunan. Initially we were light on our punishments now we just purge people from the forum with the banhammer.

    So my totalitarianism is for beauty, it's for truth(mine), it's for justice(mine), it's for friendship, it's for spirited conversation(flaming each other tenderly), it's for the funnies. I'm probably going to abuse my power eventually, but the people will let me.

    Not all totalitarianism is Nazi or Stalin, we literally have a smorgasbord of Emperors, Emperoresses, Kings, Queens, Prince, Princesses to choose from. I choose to be like Hadrian!

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    While I'm an anarchist at heart and absolutely resent being told what to do, I also understand the appeal of totalitarianism. Why should have we have to be haphazardly thrown out into the world with all these different possible paths to go down, when only very few of those paths lead us to living a happy and healthy life? We should people have to deal with avoiding all these unhealthy traps like smoking and eating fast food when we could stomp all that out?

    Of course, totalitarianism only works when the people in charge are actually concerned with the well-being of the people, and are not acting in self-interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    misfits, like you
    I'm Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. Are you Herney the Elf? Who are all the toys?


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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I just want MBTI to die
    MBTI dies when Jung is born.

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    That welfare topic is boring tho. I feel like itís been beaten to death. Plus your perspective seems silly. It sounded like right-wing talking points. You didnít present anything new. Most of these topics are non-issues in reality. The solutions are out there. But good luck convincing people to work together.

    I mean I like to debate policy sometimes, but if you are half-assing your thread, you wonít get any good responses.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    While I'm an anarchist at heart and absolutely resent being told what to do, I also understand the appeal of totalitarianism. Why should have we have to be haphazardly thrown out into the world with all these different possible paths to go down, when only very few of those paths lead us to living a happy and healthy life? We should people have to deal with avoiding all these unhealthy traps like smoking and eating fast food when we could stomp all that out?

    Of course, totalitarianism only works when the people in charge are actually concerned with the well-being of the people, and are not acting in self-interest.
    Ah! I figured people outside any "correct" path existed anyway, so thought totalitarianist leaning ppl just wanted to see them punished, like a form of sadism. But if they actually think that limiting options limits realities, that explains things so much in a way that helps them retain humanity. (Not correctness, but humanity.) Thank you, seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    That welfare topic is boring tho. I feel like itís been beaten to death. Plus your perspective seems silly. It sounded like right-wing talking points. You didnít present anything new. Most of these topics are non-issues in reality. The solutions are out there. But good luck convincing people to work together.

    I mean I like to debate policy sometimes, but if you are half-assing your thread, you wonít get any good responses.
    THANK YOU. And well said. I realize I do say things like "STFU" rather often, but I don't say that from a place of trying to stop debate/discussion, itself. What I really mean is "one should STFU/silence themselves/remain seated/play the wall if they lack reason, are uninformed/don't know what they are talking about, or are being a disingenuous, shit stirring troll acting on bad faith provocations that do nothing but cause unnecessary dissent, itself used selfishly to satiate a bored person's need for entertainment at the real life expense of others." lol Is it "totalitarian" to believe that everyone is only entitled to an informed, well conceived, well thought out, well articulated opinion, or else, "STFU?" lol If so, then I guess I'm a dictator. I just don't get the point of verbal vomiting all over the walls in hopes that something, anything, no matter how noxious, will stick. I think that approach lacks merit, integrity and trivializes subjects that deserve more care, nuance and sophistication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    That welfare topic is boring tho. I feel like it’s been beaten to death. Plus your perspective seems silly. It sounded like right-wing talking points. You didn’t present anything new. Most of these topics are non-issues in reality. The solutions are out there. But good luck convincing people to work together.

    I mean I like to debate policy sometimes, but if you are half-assing your thread, you won’t get any good responses.
    If making people apply for work before they get welfare is right-wing, then that doesn't mean it's not true. @FreelancePoliceman's idea of universal basic income and rent control seems like it'd work out similarly mathematically, because instead of fixing prices and working for income, you'd be fixing a basic living income and making people work for determining the price of goods, which should at least assure people don't starve, but I think would have major issues causing people to be ghettoed in poor locations which in turn restricts, but does not eliminate, access to good work, so I think I have to go with the more superficially right-wing-sounding one. Plus, Scandinavians are literally debating ethnic nationalism. A limited degree of right-wing economics is still much further left: "You're lazy, get a job" vs. "your kind doesn't belong here, go back to your country."

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Oh, the thread is about whether this forum is totalitarian. There's a little icky groupthink with any topic of shared interest I think, and when I hear complaints about the moderation it's usually about the lack thereof. OP seems random. Does this forum ban you from using other sites? Never noticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    That describes delta totalitarianism, but this site is incredibly not cost effective as I literally make 0 cents on it. I just want MBTI to die and want a place to meet misfits, like you and the other members of the forum.

    And aren't I very charismatic and handsome! Mao4 is the best banana emperor ever. I also cook a pretty mean Hong Shao Pork and my family is straight from Hunan. Initially we were light on our punishments now we just purge people from the forum with the banhammer.

    So my totalitarianism is for beauty, it's for truth(mine), it's for justice(mine), it's for friendship, it's for spirited conversation(flaming each other tenderly), it's for the funnies. I'm probably going to abuse my power eventually, but the people will let me.

    Not all totalitarianism is Nazi or Stalin, we literally have a smorgasbord of Emperors, Emperoresses, Kings, Queens, Prince, Princesses to choose from. I choose to be like Hadrian!
    Totalitarianism is a state organised according to beta values. It is hierarchical and basically organised in such a way comparable to the military. I think universities are more Si/Ne valuing. Current society (in USA) but also the west in general is gamma (capitalism).

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    To receive rewards from the system, you must contribute to the system. I guess it sounds reasonable. I mean; it's even in the Bible. A benevolent system would allow you to develop and perform your natural talents, without exerting any sort of coercitive pressure. People naturally want to do things.
    Last edited by mclane; 12-11-2019 at 11:10 PM.

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    @coeruleum, I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned an idea of UBI. I’m skeptical of it. Rent control is another matter, and I’m generally in favor of it, but it really needs to be paired with many other reforms to how cities in the States deal with matters of housing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @coeruleum, I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned an idea of UBI. I’m skeptical of it. Rent control is another matter, and I’m generally in favor of it, but it really needs to be paired with many other reforms to how cities in the States deal with matters of housing.
    People need to be able to drive rent prices down or this will be used to make an actual ghetto. As a sort of inverse of minimum wage, minimum wage and maximum rent, I believe it would be great. In fact, I think all non-disability unemployment handouts could be replaced with raising the minimum wage. Restrict welfare handouts to the disabled, employed/self-employed, legal guardians, and emancipated minors, raise the minimum wage, and add maximum rent based on unit features. Almost all exploitation is the result of people not making rational economic decisions out of fear, ignorance, or ressentiment, so mandating minimally rational economic decisions is a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    If making people apply for work before they get welfare is right-wing, then that doesn't mean it's not true. @FreelancePoliceman's idea of universal basic income and rent control seems like it'd work out similarly mathematically, because instead of fixing prices and working for income, you'd be fixing a basic living income and making people work for determining the price of goods, which should at least assure people don't starve, but I think would have major issues causing people to be ghettoed in poor locations which in turn restricts, but does not eliminate, access to good work, so I think I have to go with the more superficially right-wing-sounding one. Plus, Scandinavians are literally debating ethnic nationalism. A limited degree of right-wing economics is still much further left: "You're lazy, get a job" vs. "your kind doesn't belong here, go back to your country."
    You probably don't know this but I'm middle-eastern. The shit you said in that thread reeks of ignorance and racism.

    I'd never move to the US or Europe because I don't need to, and I have more western values than the average person here. The people immigrating from North Africa are going to Europe, because believe it or not, Europe is the closest stable region to them. You really think millions would rather leave their homes, move to a new country with a different set of values, just to live on basic welfare?

    The richest Arab states in Asia mostly consist of expats, only 11% of the population in the UAE are locals. There are no barriers to residency beyond having a job, but this makes it harder to integrate people into a dying culture because they don't even have to know the language to live here. We have our own issues when it comes to population. I wish we have an easier path for citizenship, but the reality is these countries cannot support more people in need. They are very young and inexperienced, and they have pissed away a lot of the oil money due to bad management. It's also doubtful that these countries will have that many highly educated expats if they didn't have the money to support an economy filled with high salaries. With the current economic climate and the low price of oil, things will become even harder for the coming generations. UAE is essentially in a recession since 2014 and there are no indications that things are getting better. Lots of people have left the country or have been laid off.

    At some point the majority of my colleagues were from the US or the UK, but with the new lower salaries and rising prices (+new taxes), most of these individuals went back to their home countries (some of them were here for 10+ years). The new signings are mostly from Asia, other Arab countries, South America, or Africa. These people will take a lower salary, because they are still making at least five times what they make back at home.

    In all honesty you don't seem very experienced to speak on policy.

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