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    Default Patient-psychotherapist relationship

    What is the best relationship (or very good) for a patient-psychotherapist relationship? ( Identical, Extinguishment, Mirror, Mirage, other?)
    ( I am EII)
    Last edited by Hannnah; 11-24-2019 at 03:46 PM.

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    IDK, but I’d also like to find out.

    Identicals can share information most easily of all types, but their solutions are the same as yours. If your solutions are failing, chances are that theirs will, too.
    The exception would be if your problems stem from not fully realizing your potential as a type. In that case, their best contribution would come from being an example, more than discussing things with you.

    I have a Mirror (ILI) shrink, and his method of thinking is jarring sometimes and his solutions are not solutions. He helps mostly through encouragement.

    I had a Mirage GF (LSI) who offered some insight into my old PTSD, but one insight in three years is not a great track record for a shrink.

    I have never had any insights relating to my psychological problems from my Extinguishment partners (LII). Objective reality insights, yes. Psychological insights, no.

    I met a Benefit shrink who seemed horrible.

    You might want to not choose a shrink based upon ITR’s, but rather just go with a professional IEI who has a great understanding of other people (they almost all do have this on some level) and see if their advice is at all useful.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-24-2019 at 01:11 PM.

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    The most trust inspire duals.
    So the more personal contact is important for the method - the more these IR should be useful.

    Also when you tune to dual's personality and partly introject it, this improves the contact with own unconsciousness and this should reduce any neurotic symptoms. The human irrationally feels better and also consciousness may get useful ideas to rationalize and such stabilize this.

    Such psychotherapy may remind more relations of friends than a medicine. Rogers developed in this direction. It may give positive medical results - what was needed.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I think my therapist may be my identical and she's helped me more than anyone, though I haven't really been to consistent therapy until now due to either losing insurance/quitting job, moving or the therapist sucking. I've come across some pretty bad/unprofessional therapists and you don't need to have a master's in this state.

    Rogers's style is called person-centered therapy and it's pretty commonly used or at least implemented in therapeutic styles
    Last edited by thegreenfaerie; 11-24-2019 at 02:08 PM.

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    According to the depth psychologists dual is bad. The reason for this is that they cover up your weaknesses too well, so they don't make you grow. Instead they override your inferior (suggestive) function, making you stay in your comfort zone.

    I found the source.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 11-24-2019 at 02:33 PM.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Yeah @Tallmo , to me having a therapist who seems to have more of a grasp and understanding of my own psyche is helpful (potential identical). It helps more to see how someone similar to myself is able to make things work too. Of course any therapist should be empathetic and free of being overly judgmental, which unfortunately, is not always the case. I've heard of and witnessed some wild and harmful stuff. Though, different styles and approaches do work differently for different people.

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    Your conflictor. In case you have difficulty to show anger... It works and fast and can be done even if the other party does not know about it... so no need for professionals.

    If you want to exchange worldview level information talk with kindred.

    If you want patronizing talk with your supervisor.

    Identicals are usually too uninteresting unless they have something to offer you. Then it will be great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Your conflictor. In case you have difficulty to show anger... It works and fast and can be done even if the other party does not know about it... so no need for professionals.

    If you want to exchange worldview level information talk with kindred.

    If you want patronizing talk with your supervisor.

    Identicals are usually too uninteresting unless they have something to offer you. Then it will be great.
    Great post, Heretic 007. Quoted for Posterity.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    If I ever go to a therapist it has to be a Jungian. Because depth psychology has pretty much changed my life and made me realize things I could never have figured out myself.

    The fact that I got into depth psychology is almost enough of a reason for me to seek a therapist. It is that good (or bad). Of course not the only reason.

    I have decided that there are certain challenges I need to take on at this point and that I will not seek a therapist until I've seen how it turns out.

    There are Jungian therapists here where I live, but they are very few. I've met some of them briefly at a seminar. I think they are IEE, ILE, maybe LII and LIE. There can be more of them I am not sure. So I can't be too picky with the type.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Idk about dual being bad, I don't know if it's the best though, but at least for me dual advice usually feels like someone confirming the things in the back of my head, like I am hearing solutions that I feel vaguely familiar with but now they are stated clearly, and that's what makes it click("I always knew that but it makes more sense hearing someone say it out loud"). I guess because those thoughts formed in the back of my mind I might not feel so sure or confident about, not knowing if they are the right answer, but hearing someone speak confidently about them and back them up makes me think I'm on the right track and gets rid of alot of anxiety and insecurity about them.
    But yea if they do the work for you then it won't help you get better at it for sure. It just feels like they are telling you something you secretly already know, which for me feels pretty validating.

    Idk, everytime I hear conflictor advice I immediately get exhausted, I will admit conflictor presence can make you a little better without you knowing it, but their advice, nah, it has never worked ime. I can't tell you how many Se filled motivational videos I watched on the internet and just feel completely defeated after watching them instead of motivated "HARD WORK! WORK HARD! PUSH YOURSELF!" as I feel 1D Se cringing in the background, and I don't feel the desire to be that way even though I can be envious of people who are like that, while with Te advice even when overwhelming I still think I need to be that way more while feeling it'll never happen.

    But of course the best would be an identical whose already solved your problem, and their solution might make you face palm and say "DUH!".

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    Mirrors, Duals and Identicals. In that order.

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    LSEs seem to be able to slap EIIs in the face with doses of reality without making it hurt - if you could ever find one who has chosen psychotherapy as a profession......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LSEs seem to be able to slap EIIs in the face with doses of reality without making it hurt - if you could ever find one who has chosen psychotherapy as a profession......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Lol. That’s not likely.

    That would be like finding an IEI stock broker.

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    The best therapist I had was probably my Activity partner. I liked her criticisms of me, she wasn't too nice and sweet but she also wasn't a total sadistic asshole either like so many the-rape-ists.

    Many therapists just enjoy being around vulnerable people that need help because they like preying on them. (under the societal illusion that they are 'helping' but really they are just throwing tampons at Carrie with the other girls.) It's a predatory-prey relationship where they get off on you being so honest and open and vulnerable with them but they don't tell you really anything weak about themselves, or the shit they do say is just blue-pill PC crap that protects only them and their career and is never a TRUE vulnerability - that's why I dislike most therapy.

    However I understand that a therapist needs to be more closed off and less open with you and more uh detached or something/as that's kind of a balancing ground for the therapy to actually work. There has to be a top and bottom, so to speak. You are there for therapy after all, you are not there to make a friend or just have somebody agree with you and not challenge you. So I won't say I even liked the LSI I had all that much, but I disliked her the least out of all the others. <g>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lol. That’s not likely.

    That would be like finding an IEI stock broker.
    LIE kindergarten teacher
    ILE funeral director
    SLE charity worker

    Their destiny intertwines and what could possibly happen...
    Coming this Christmas movie theater near you:
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    Last edited by CoViD Spurdo 007; 11-28-2019 at 12:37 PM.
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    I think this is a very interesting concept.

    Of the counselors I’ve been able to type, I’ve had ILI-Ni, IEE-Ne, and possibly ESI-Fi.

    I got along the best with ESI, although we didn’t actually do much therapy lol. we had more coffee conversations than anything else.

    The ILI was probably the best one as she both listened with care and shared techniques with me. I didn’t get a ton out of our sessions though, so I moved on.

    The IEE was the therapist from hell. She seemed nice initially but then talked over me and invalidated me until I was red in the face and asked to leave.

    My opinion on the best intertypes for therapy?

    It depends on what you’re in need of.

    Most often if you’re in therapy, you’re in need of psychological relief. And for that, a healthy dual is impeccable. An even-subtype mirror may be good as well (I.e. I’m EII-Ne, so an even mirror for me would be IEE-Fi).

    Or you may be trying to understand what your issues are, or what’s at their root. For that, an identical, a lookalike, or a contrary may help. I added Contrary because although they are in the opposite quadra, they understand you on the dimension of rationality and their thought process is complementary to your own (which matters more than you might think!). That plus similar strengths and understanding in my experience puts them in a good position for a healthy therapy relation.

    Or you’re looking to understand what’s going on in an acquaintance or loved one’s head. In general, intuitive types are likely to have a plethora of insight on this due to their natural leaning toward figuring out what makes people tick. However, you may also be looking for efficient ways to deal with people you find difficult, in which case a dual or even-subtype illusionary can psychologically fortify you.

    Or maybe you just want someone to talk to, and vent. For this, I’m inclined to say Illusionary or Beneficiary. Make sure you got a good subtype though.

    Lastly, if you’re in need of some good advice that takes more than your own worldview into account, I’m inclined to say try looking for a semi-dual or benefactor.

    I write this based on my own experiences, so take with a grain of salt. ☺️
    Last edited by PinKDiGiT18; 08-23-2020 at 01:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    The IEE was the therapist from hell. She seemed nice initially but then talked over me and invalidated me until I was red in the face and asked to leave.
    Most of the "therapists" I've encountered were Deltas who couldn't understand me at all. They spend all this time trying to make me do ridiculous exercises like writing lists of things I like about myself, and other annoying crap. I don't need to learn to count to 10 and take 10 deep breaths like I'm some kind of raging idiot.

    I don't know how to find a therapist that's good for me — or if a therapist is even what I need. Someone suggested I look for a psychoanalyst (someone for helping with unresolved trauma), but that sounds quite expensive for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oath of solitude View Post
    Most of the "therapists" I've encountered were Deltas who couldn't understand me at all. They spend all this time trying to make me do ridiculous exercises like writing lists of things I like about myself, and other annoying crap. I don't need to learn to count to 10 and take 10 deep breaths like I'm some kind of raging idiot.
    lmao @ writing a list of things/counting to 10

    i'd say the most ideal should be ur dual/identical that's been through similar situations, have similar cultural backgrounds as u... pretty much really/deeply understand where ur coming from

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    Had one or two conversations with an ESI shrink, she wanted to date me, should have done it, but was not ready for relationships this time (maybe she should have worked a bit with me before) chemistry was great, from sexual to psychological, she just did not get me speaking in abstractions which could have been interesting material to analyze from a socionics POV, but i did not know it this time.
    She was also very impressed about my thinking style and style of operating in general, i guess this kind of setting just brings a close personal distance into the game were duality becomes obvious.

    Had another one being ESI or maybe EII/LSI, was also very wholesome.

    Then i had this EII woman, she basically castrated me for Delta values and told me i had BPD instead of letting me accept my giftedness which the ESI before put a great effort into.
    She propably even got the BPD idea from myself because my Te suggesitive was just too convincing to her, bad basis for this if you tend to think of yourself as ill because of a former 'Münchausen by Proxy' treatment.
    Still cause a lot of damage to me, trying to reconcile me with abusive people, automatically taking my ex gfs side and low key guilting me into admitting that 'the relationship was harmful for both of us' instead of naming it as her being abusive and working on fixing that damage.
    So yes, she sucked, i should have fucked the first ESI and for some of them i do not have their types and it is to long ago.

    So to stay on topic, i think same Quadra Relationships in general are the best, they are symmetric and you share valued functions and values in general.
    A therapist from another quadra will most likely steer you into that direction and there is a risk of you being in a asymmetric relationship with them which makes the intearaction potentially more harmful and/or less effective depending on who is in the weaker position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    According to the depth psychologists dual is bad. The reason for this is that they cover up your weaknesses too well, so they don't make you grow. Instead they override your inferior (suggestive) function, making you stay in your comfort zone.

    I found the source.
    I think the depth psychologists are kinda right and wrong here. Duality makes you dependent to some degree but also allows you to develop your strengths which makes you more desirable. So you become kinda dependent and independent at the same time. That's the nature of real interdependence and mutuality. Your dual is the food from which your ego is born.

    Sure, separation causes anxiety and you have to learn to do some things on your own that they did for you, but with a strong and whole ego that's been supported and balanced, you're more likely to succeed. In other words, you leave prepared and on good terms ready to face life.

    Ideas like the ones in that link stem from a mindset that life is supposed to be difficult and austere. And putting two identicals together? That seems like sadism to me, although maybe unconscious.
    Last edited by Aramas; 08-23-2020 at 07:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    I think this is a very interesting concept.

    Of the counselors I’ve been able to type, I’ve had ILI-Ni, IEE-Ne, and possibly ESI-Fi.

    I got along the best with ESI, although we didn’t actually do much therapy lol. we had more coffee conversations than anything else.

    The ILI was probably the best one as she both listened with care and shared techniques with me. I didn’t get a ton out of our sessions though, so I moved on.

    The IEE was the therapist from hell. She seemed nice initially but then talked over me and invalidated me until I was red in the face and asked to leave.

    My opinion on the best intertypes for therapy?

    It depends on what you’re in need of.

    Most often if you’re in therapy, you’re in need of psychological relief. And for that, a healthy dual is impeccable. An even-subtype mirror may be good as well (I.e. I’m EII-Ne, so an even mirror for me would be IEE-Fi).

    Or you may be trying to understand what your issues are, or what’s at their root. For that, an identical, a lookalike, or a contrary may help. I added Contrary because although they are in the opposite quadra, they understand you on the dimension of rationality and their thought process is complementary to your own (which matters more than you might think!). That plus similar strengths and understanding in my experience puts them in a good position for a healthy therapy relation.

    Or you’re looking to understand what’s going on in an acquaintance or loved one’s head. In general, intuitive types are likely to have a plethora of insight on this due to their natural leaning toward figuring out what makes people tick. However, you may also be looking for efficient ways to deal with people you find difficult, in which case a dual or even-subtype illusionary can psychologically fortify you.

    Or maybe you just want someone to talk to, and vent. For this, I’m inclined to say Illusionary or Beneficiary. Make sure you got a good subtype though.

    Lastly, if you’re in need of some good advice that takes more than your own worldview into account, I’m inclined to say try looking for a semi-dual or benefactor.

    I write this based on my own experiences, so take with a grain of salt. ☺️
    I had a therapist like your IEE one at one point. She constantly contradicted and invalidated me, and always supported the main person I had a problem with. She was either EIE or ILE, or maybe SLI. She had a very soft feeling but steely at the same time. Silk glove that conceals the iron hand. I never really wanted her as a therapist, but she pulled me into her range when I needed some help with necessities to keep attending school. There was a red flag of criticism at the beginning of the relationship, and I didn't feel right about it, but I didn't have a choice if I wanted to get the help offered to students who needed it. She was pretty perfect when it came to meeting all the technical requirements of her job and defending her position, so there was nothing I could have done about what I saw was basically abuse in itself. I came to her taking about how I had basically been fucked with, and she continued fucking with me herself by "trying to get me to see his perspective." Basically. And trying to make me like him. It was probably the most terrible experience I've had with therapy. I'm not inclined to do it again.

    Side note: I've also known an IEE who would totally pretend to be on your side but always gave me the feeling of being on someone else's side and somehow managed to subtly guilt me. Some bitches are good at manipulation. No matter how long I live i doubt I'll ever understand all that crap.
    Last edited by Aramas; 08-23-2020 at 07:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    The best therapist I had was probably my Activity partner. I liked her criticisms of me, she wasn't too nice and sweet but she also wasn't a total sadistic asshole either like so many the-rape-ists.

    Many therapists just enjoy being around vulnerable people that need help because they like preying on them. (under the societal illusion that they are 'helping' but really they are just throwing tampons at Carrie with the other girls.) It's a predatory-prey relationship where they get off on you being so honest and open and vulnerable with them but they don't tell you really anything weak about themselves, or the shit they do say is just blue-pill PC crap that protects only them and their career and is never a TRUE vulnerability - that's why I dislike most therapy.

    However I understand that a therapist needs to be more closed off and less open with you and more uh detached or something/as that's kind of a balancing ground for the therapy to actually work. There has to be a top and bottom, so to speak. You are there for therapy after all, you are not there to make a friend or just have somebody agree with you and not challenge you. So I won't say I even liked the LSI I had all that much, but I disliked her the least out of all the others. <g>
    So true. Therapy is like an opportunity for endless narcissistic supply. You have someone in the palm of your hand who has already been broken and because of the nature of the relationship has to basically open up to a stranger and be vulnerable to them. It's a recipe for disaster because the client has weak defenses and the therapist doesn't have to be vulnerable themselves. The therapist occupies a position of authority also.

    And yeah the false front of "trying to help" while being thrown to the dogs. I'm familiar with that one. Sometimes think you're better off with Cujo than these little Umbridges. At least everyone knows Cujo is out to get you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I think the depth psychologists are kinda right and wrong here. Duality makes you dependent to some degree but also allows you to develop your strengths which makes you more desirable. So you become kinda dependent and independent at the same time. That's the nature of real interdependence and mutuality. Your dual is the food from which your ego is born.

    Sure, separation causes anxiety and you have to learn to do some things on your own that they did for you, but with a strong and whole ego that's been supported and balanced, you're more likely to succeed. In other words, you leave prepared and on good terms ready to face life.
    Well, I am obviously more negative about duality than you. I don't think duals make you grow. They keep you balanced as long as they are present. In therapy it is problematic because the patient needs to develop and solve his problems himself. The dual will just give you the illusion that problems have been solved, but they haven't. When you are on your own again the spell is broken and nothing has changed.

    The thing is that you are not prepared after being with a dual. When you are with a dual you are not even aware of your type weaknesses that much. Duality is a bliss. It's kindof like paradise.

    I know that duality can feel great and all that, so in that way it can have a positive impact.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Well, I am obviously more negative about duality than you. I don't think duals make you grow. They keep you balanced as long as they are present. In therapy it is problematic because the patient needs to develop and solve his problems himself. The dual will just give you the illusion that problems have been solved, but they haven't. When you are on your own again the spell is broken and nothing has changed.

    The thing is that you are not prepared after being with a dual. When you are with a dual you are not even aware of your type weaknesses that much. Duality is a bliss. It's kindof like paradise.

    I know that duality can feel great and all that, so in that way it can have a positive impact.
    We just disagree lol. I think the jungians like many others fail at understanding paradox, so they can't see but one perspective. Socionists are a bit too rosy about duality in many cases, and it seems like jungians think of it as the infantilizing devil lol.

    In my own experience, duality has been quite helpful and useful for growth, but also a touch and go kinda thing. I've noticed myself gravitating more in the direction of duals in recent months and years unconsciously by noticing things like that after the fact. It's an intriguing phenomenon. I have had even a few duals want a relationship with me, but I didn't quite feel the chemistry or libido. Duality is a subtle influence because they live in your unconscious. I think also part of the problem is that I had a conflictor dad. Our desires often go back to our parents it's true I've come to think. I feel a powerful drive to ILEs but it ends up being a world of pain if I try to close that distance. Duality would be good but it seems my unconscious hasn't been conditioned to desire it. So those relationships while having a positive effect on my life have nonetheless been fleeting.

    After growing up with a conflictor parent, it's like a part of me has become attached to pain and doesn't want to part with it. I know it sounds weird but that's how it feels. I know it has a negative effect on my health and well-being but it's hard to stop that momentum.

    Duality is more pleasant but it's like the intensity of the dark side emotions in conflict are addicting -- without them I don't feel like I'm alive or exist because I've lived with them so long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I had a therapist like your IEE one at one point. She constantly contradicted and invalidated me, and always supported the main person I had a problem with. She was either EIE or ILE, or maybe SLI. She had a very soft feeling but steely at the same time. Silk glove that conceals the iron hand. I never really wanted her as a therapist, but she pulled me into her range when I needed some help with necessities to keep attending school. There was a red flag of criticism at the beginning of the relationship, and I didn't feel right about it, but I didn't have a choice if I wanted to get the help offered to students who needed it. She was pretty perfect when it came to meeting all the technical requirements of her job and defending her position, so there was nothing I could have done about what I saw was basically abuse in itself. I came to her taking about how I had basically been fucked with, and she continued fucking with me herself by "trying to get me to see his perspective." Basically. And trying to make me like him. It was probably the most terrible experience I've had with therapy. I'm not inclined to do it again.

    Side note: I've also known an IEE who would totally pretend to be on your side but always gave me the feeling of being on someone else's side and somehow managed to subtly guilt me. Some bitches are good at manipulation. No matter how long I live i doubt I'll ever understand all that crap.
    Wow. I concur with that last sentence. I hope since then you’ve found better connections and healthier people to aid you. What you described with your IEE is exactly to a T what happened with mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    Wow. I concur with that last sentence. I hope since then you’ve found better connections and healthier people to aid you. What you described with your IEE is exactly to a T what happened with mine.
    They probably just wanted to collect a paycheck lmao.

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    My therapist self-types as IEI (I am guessing Ni subtype with a strong e5 head fix...) I used to think he was LII. I get the sense that he finds me a bit strange but amusing. He has been the most helpful therapist by far. The other person that can follow my train of thought effortlessly is my close ILI-Ni (also strong e5 head fix... we act as each other's sound boards).
    Last edited by Stance; 08-24-2020 at 12:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lol. That’s not likely.

    That would be like finding an IEI stock broker.
    I think you stereotype too much. You can find Delta STs in teaching, counseling and professional development. Some Delta STs care a great deal about and others very much like to teach ().

    I have been to a lot of mental health professionals and generally don't find them helpful. It's because they're not in my life and can't provide active assistance. They can't help me with action. The therapy realm of talking doesn't connect to action because it's like my mind and body are severed.

    Also there's not much variety where I am.

    Mental health in US is like the rest of medicine, it's an industry to make money off patients, and in the true spirit of capitalism that means don't heal them because then they will stop paying. People don't do it intentionally so much as it's the entire system that does it.

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    It's a recipe for disaster because the client has weak defenses and the therapist doesn't have to be vulnerable themselves. The therapist occupies a position of authority also.
    The Regina Hurt person I told you about before would be like 'I am shy about singing in front of a stage. See, everybody has problems. Now then, tell me about the time you were sadistically sexually abused so I can use that against on you and get off on it while pretending to society that I'm a good person.' Like as if experiencing a little stage fright was at the same level of the heavy serious crap she wanted you to reveal. And sadly, her manipulations often worked, because she actually does have a very good external reputation in the superficial by-the-book sense. But yeah it was pretty repulsive. She also would try to anger and emotionally abuse/belittle you enough in hopes that you would assault her so she could then press charges. This one didn't work as much, but it didn't stop her from trying.

    "I really care about you, you can tell me." (minor tells her personal things) "Okay now I am going to try to escalate you to a higher security prison."

    Also @Aramas what you said about identicals being sadistic, I feel that. I think especially male and female IEIs can sort of be sadistic with each other, and it can be dangerously subtle and kind of like socially trying to sabotage each other while having the facade of innocence. Female IEIs have drained my mental health too much where I stay away from them lol. Maybe you could sort of say 'it doesn't work because it's two like charges and putting batteries in a game boy backwards' but it's not quite that simple.



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