Typology Random Thoughts

[Ikite iru]

"The problem withs MBTI aficionados is a misunderstanding of the word "Types" , it is used as synonymous of "Personality" which is a big mistake. Unfortunately that mistake is common in all typologies including socionics. The way one behaves doesn't necessarily reflects one's psyche and information treatment, it all happens at the "cognitive" level at least in Model A. But people (even pros) can't help but to describe these TIM in terms of behavior '"they are xyz, they do xyz" etc, that's profiling..."

@godslave: I'm going to answer you here because the message is probably going to be a bit longer. The question about what is personality and what is type should probably be one of the more important questions to address as people can have hundreds, if not thousands of personalities and it's easy to just categorize all of it into small groups when you don't really have a tight framework to work with. I barely watch videos about MBTI, but I did notice that they often claim: this is Fe or that and there's absolutely no proof to any of it. this is how ENFJ and ISTP will interact but how did they even get these predictions? I doubt any person has hundreds of relationships that they can observe each day. Even Jung, how many people has he really observed. I can go to the internet and read countless of comments, I probably have more access to how humans behave by just simply being able to access the internet, which Jung didn't have. In typology, there are a lot of subjective claims that are presented as facts but I cannot help but think that 90% of it is just specific traits that a person just happens to have. It really is like Astrology in a lot of aspects but instead of saying you're confident and creative because you are a sagittarius or gemini, people say you are creative and chaotic and quirky because you are an ENFP, even though the majority of the population doesn't behave like that at all, because they can't afford to behave like that due to their life circumstances.

[godslave]

"The problem withs MBTI aficionados is a misunderstanding of the word "Types" , it is used as synonymous of "Personality" which is a big mistake. Unfortunately that mistake is common in all typologies including socionics. The way one behaves doesn't necessarily reflects one's psyche and information treatment, it all happens at the "cognitive" level at least in Model A. But people (even pros) can't help but to describe these TIM in terms of behavior '"they are xyz, they do xyz" etc, that's profiling..."

@godslave: I'm going to answer you here because the message is probably going to be a bit longer. The question about what is personality and what is type should probably be one of the more important questions to address as people can have hundreds, if not thousands of personalities and it's easy to just categorize all of it into small groups when you don't really have a tight framework to work with. I barely watch videos about MBTI, but I did notice that they often claim: this is Fe or that and there's absolutely no proof to any of it. this is how ENFJ and ISTP will interact but how did they even get these predictions? I doubt any person has hundreds of relationships that they can observe each day. Even Jung, how many people has he really observed. I can go to the internet and read countless of comments, I probably have more access to how humans behave by just simply being able to access the internet, which Jung didn't have. In typology, there are a lot of subjective claims that are presented as facts but I cannot help but think that 90% of it is just specific traits that a person just happens to have. It really is like Astrology in a lot of aspects but instead of saying you're confident and creative because you are a sagittarius or gemini, people say you are creative and chaotic and quirky because you are an ENFP, even though the majority of the population doesn't behave like that at all, because they can't afford to behave like that due to their life circumstances.

I agree with all that ! Indeed, some people confound Typology with divination or something.

I would say that the best way to know about the Human condition is to observe its depiction through Arts, literature, plays, movies of the Great repertoire of Humanity throughout history, it's our cultural Legacy as human beings. That's where Jung found and developed his ideas of Archetypes etc...

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

intuition is perception of the unseen and this is related to perceiving what other people are going through. the sensing function seems to be related to people overextending their boundaries over what belongs to others while being entitled and dismissive about it smehow not understanding or refusing to how u affect others bc u think its fake. like some guy who said smth like "if laid hands on me im beating them up cuz thats how i was raised idc" like ur not a 4 year old idk how u think this makes u look. everyone has had thier boundaries violated somehow and this is rather mild and unjustifactory. ofc some ppl will keep violating u in "small" so tyo say ways that are actually violating until u start crumbling while they pretend they didnt do anything too. and in fact this can be u in this case cuz ppl shouldnt live in constant fear about what u can get pissed off about when its actually not a big deal + fucks up their functioning if they have be so concerned about it. no other people's functioning doesnt get fucked up when they have to NOT physically harass you consisntely over time after you told them no. this happenned to me personally. but this is not what u;re complaning about.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

Se is the function of gaslighting? kinda true and makes sense. it focuses on external (extroverted) sensory stimulus (again u get sensory stimulus from the external environet) which disconnects u from urself and is related to force. and being forced is how u disconned from urself. this is also related to why SxEs can be so fake and performative. gaslighting and abusing ureslf to be "cool" and "manly/womanly/"whatever ur ideal is and not appear waek. objective IMPULSIVE impressions bc intuition can take time and effort, seeing beyond the surface. also why cool can become goofy

Si egos related to maybe "natural" personal impressions that dont go much beyond. example those guys who yell at u for minor inconviences and "survive" riding a train and complain about how hard life is, then also complain about how anyone trying to change or improve or do meaningful things is fake and goofy. then u crash a car they gave u thats a bad crash on accident but ur paranoid and they start giving an emotional speech about how at least u're ok. but when u destroy items on accident or dont do things on schedule or whatever bs they yell at u, opress u, starve u, abuse u whatever whatever and its fine bc ur not dead but ur dying and they are taking away opportunities away from u living ur life. Se egos can also do that thinking its discipline. well N types can totally do that too

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

some ILE thoguht i vibed like i really wanna be away from ppl or smth. she was actaully right but at the time i didnt think she was. cuz my brain was crushed i was using ppl to stimulate my thought process cuz i felt like i was gonna die if i was alone so to say. using other ppl to reflect myself on and process. mb thats what "extraverts" mean was another thought. but i strained so much to learn to mask and became dependent on others in the first place partially at least maybe bc of how much i was masking. my ESI teacher was a leo and she said how she thought she wanted to be alone but tried it and realized she couldnt take it to be away from ppl too much. but my sun isnt leo and im autistic AND MBTI INFJ. but someone said my natal chart was of an extravert if thats even a thing and idk if he was right.

[SacredKnowing]

[Today 06:25 PM] SacredKnowing: @Distance Tom Cruise isn't in socionics. He's Psychopath.
[Today 07:00 PM] Adam Strange: Lol. Yes, psychopathy does tend to swamp sociotypes, but I still think Cruise is an Alpha SF.

[Distance]

[Today 06:25 PM] SacredKnowing: @Distance Tom Cruise isn't in socionics. He's Psychopath.
[Today 07:00 PM] Adam Strange: Lol. Yes, psychopathy does tend to swamp sociotypes, but I still think Cruise is an Alpha SF.

Good call category. His holy cow is scientology, and holy cow 🐄, his sacred cow is magical thinking.

Overall he has had ethical standards his whole life, like priest hood aspirations as a teenager and note: wanting to serve others in this service.

I think the "type" can be reckless and given his bent in his magical sacred service it has crazified him to the max in his judgment.

I'm referencing his shutting the oxygen off on his passenger so the plane could fly higher out of the storms. His callous belly laughing about it means he lives in another world.

People in occulthood are away from accounting to reality. Your emotions are not set right to right things.

That's my theory for it.

Anyway thanks for the thought.

[Distance]

Good call category. His holy cow is scientology, and holy cow , his sacred cow is magical thinking.

Overall he has had ethical standards his whole life, like priest hood aspirations as a teenager and note: wanting to serve others in this service.

I think the "type" can be reckless and given his bent in his magical sacred service it has crazified him to the max in his judgment.

I'm referencing his shutting the oxygen off on his passenger so the plane could fly higher out of the storms. His callous belly laughing about it means he lives in another world.

People in occulthood are away from accounting to reality. Your emotions are not set right to right things.

That's my theory for it.

Anyway thanks for the thought.

[godslave]

I'm ILI...



...from a certain point of view ! When I chose to seriously nitpick I vibe a bit like a ILI.

[Distance]

When the towers burned in New York from the terrorist attacks, the firefighters were upset and bewildered why people were jumping off the building in droves, they saying please stop, don't give up, don't despair, shouting STOP! at the thawicking of bodies hitting the awnings.

Some thought it was suicide because of the horror and gave up.

That is an ST way of thinking in terms of walking in other shoes, not knowing that they were overcome physically from the physics of the problem, because people don't just dive off a building unless they absolutely have to.

[godslave]

When the towers burned in New York from the terrorist attacks, the firefighters were upset and bewildered why people were jumping off the building in droves, they saying please stop, don't give up, don't despair, shouting STOP! at the thawicking of bodies hitting the awnings.

Some thought it was suicide because of the horror and gave up.

That is an ST way of thinking in terms of walking in other shoes, not knowing that they were overcome physically from the physics of the problem, because people don't just dive off a building unless they absolutely have to.

Again, most of these theories engage a lot their author own psychology (projecting ad universalis...)

[Distance]

Again, most of these theories engage a lot their author own psychology (projecting ad universalis...)

Care to elaborate?

[godslave]

Care to elaborate?

I was just illustrating one of the possible reasons for people to make the wrong decisions under a certain conditions (like for instance extreme stress) is cognitive dissonance.

Now, my little comment was just my opinion on some psychological theories, I think a lot of them are ought to be thought of as philosophical. Indeed, like Nietzsche would say, every philosophy engages its philosopher meaning that it works for him (or her) better, there is no universality to someone's philosophy. Likewise in many theoretical psychology, there is the assumption that we all "tick "the same and if there is one thing Jung has taught use is that nothing can be further from the truth, temperaments do exist and what works for and/or in some might not work in others. Some Psychological Ideas often become like ideology or philosophical movement in which the founder of these Ideas (like for Instance Freud, Jung, Adler or Lacan) becomes like a "maître à penser" or guru like figure. So we must be careful with all that. It's not different than Theoretical Astronomy, it's interesting but most of the time doomed to an existence confined in the field of possibilities.

Nowadays, we have cognitive sciences and real empirical metrics and tools that actually show in real time what is really going on in our "mind". Modern Psychology and sociology are quite different from what they used to be a century ago.

[Ikite iru]

I think Jung had the right idea, but many of his descriptions were still rather vague and he ultimatively didn't even work with the concept of 16 types. I would have liked to interview him and ask him in more detail what he thought the types were because I think people fall into other categories (conservative/traditional/progressive/empathetic/realitstic/empirical/concrete/abstract/pragmatic) regardless of the type they have and there are many arguments and conflicts due to the differences in these temperaments even when people have same type.

even regarding ITR, I think there are some people who are simply better at maintaining relationships than others. stability can also be influenced by factors that are unrelated to anyone's type, like the environment you are in.

[godslave]

I think Jung had the right idea, but many of his descriptions were still rather vague and he ultimatively didn't even work with the concept of 16 types. I would have liked to interview him and ask him in more detail what he thought the types were because I think people fall into other categories (conservative/traditional/progressive/empathetic/realitstic/empirical/concrete/abstract/pragmatic) regardless of the type they have and there are many arguments and conflicts due to the differences in these temperaments even when people have same type.

even regarding ITR, I think there are some people who are simply better at maintaining relationships than others. stability can also be influenced by factors that are unrelated to anyone's type, like the environment you are in.

Maybe ChatGPT 5 or 6 will be able to clone his mind and that will be the closest to real Jung that you can get. You could then ask him whatever you want and have answers that the real Jung would have most likely give.

Of course Jung Bots probably exist but that's just accessory compared to what is to come. Imagine an Holographic AI like in Star wars like, or even better like Jor-El Superman like hologram (btw this name was a reference to one the Abrahamic God names "EL". Jor-EL reminds me of Archangels names Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Azrael etc...). It could take the aspects and the Mind of any Great figure of Humanity !

^ This technology is around the corner of time, you and I will see in our lifetime !

[SacredKnowing]

Of course Jung Bots probably exist but that's just accessory compared to what is to come. Imagine an Holographic AI like in Star wars like, or even better like Jor-El Superman like hologram (btw this name was a reference to one the Abrahamic God names "EL". Jor-EL reminds me of Archangels names Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Azrael etc...). It could take the aspects and the Mind of any Great figure of Humanity !

This is not the correct etymology for why angel names end in ʾel. In Hebrew, names are a short sentence, and ʾel is the Hebrew word meaning God, gods (rare, maybe 4 times in the entire Hebrew bible), or power. Michael means "Who is like God"? (rhetorical question, with the dagger held in its mouth: nobody!). Gabriel means "my strength is God" and Raphael means "God, please heal!". No other angel name has been revealed (certainly not the last name you gave), and so the Holy Catholic Church sorts other angel names as unknown territory.

[godslave]

This is not the correct etymology for why angel names end in ʾel. In Hebrew, names are a short sentence, and ʾel is the Hebrew word meaning God, gods (rare, maybe 4 times in the entire Hebrew bible), or power. Michael means "Who is like God"? (rhetorical question, with the dagger held in its mouth: nobody!). Gabriel means "my strength is God" and Raphael means "God, please heal!". No other angel name has been revealed (certainly not the last name you gave), and so the Holy Catholic Church sorts other angel names as unknown territory.

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's why I said "this name [Jor-EL] was a reference one the Abrahamic God names "EL"" . But you're right it wasn't clear enough.

Hebrew is a semitic language and as such it's quite similar to Arabic in which many names are like you said "short sentences" or meaning. For instance every arabic first name ending with -Allah like Adulallah (The adorator/slave of God (Allah)) , Nasrallah (the victory of God), Khairallah (The benefit of God), SaifAllah (The sword of God) etc.... Same with the "din" (religion) suffix like Aladdin (the elevated (high) religion) , Nourddine (the light of the Religion), Azzedine/Izzuddin (The prestige of the religion).

Archangels have the same names in the Bible and the Quran. As for the names revealed, Azrael is supposed to be the name of the Archangel of Death even if in Islam it is referred to exclusively by its function, again the Archangel of Death (Malak al Mawt) not by his name. So you see even if if you didn't intend to comment on the last name of the Archangel I mentioned the way I just did, you were right.

[Distance]

If this explanation holds water, then i identify with introverted feeling, by way of generation of moving in closer and away, in a calculus of character, and knowing character in of itself; though i'm not sure of the discriminatory nature of it barring Fe feeling types from this relationship effect. F high means F high, whether in the front or backside of cognition with Fi/Fe.

He is Fi PoLR in his own words.

Food for further thought.

[Distance]

I gave Disturbed an idea of filling type code in his TIM, any code, being in his type thread, but all's you are going to get is a like reaction from him, but i mentioned elsewhere that if Fi you'll vibe away from it like a repulsion of a magnet, push away and pull toward you, and if Ti it would be a negation in paring it down why it does not work in consistency with a control.

[godslave]

I'm not Batman I'm not Conan I'm not Kenshiro, no...

 

I'm freaking Sara Crewe !!



https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3733...-h/37332-h.htm

[Ikite iru]

Jack always looks so on the edge in these thumbnails geez. Does anyone even listen to them? whenever I watch one of these it's usually "EIE lead with intuition, so they are interested in novel concepts yadda yadda yadda", stuff that you can read up in 5 minutes. man, the state of typology is grim. he seems like such a nerd, and I don't mean that as a criticism, it's just who he is, but it makes me wonder how many people he has actually observed and how much of the stuff he claims to "explain correctly" is actually just imagination and theory and not based on reality.

[SacredKnowing]

Attachment theory was developed by John Bowlby and later expanded by Mary Ainsworth.

There could be a connection between constructivist dichotomy and dismissive-avoidant attachment and the emotivist dichotomy and anxious-preoccupied attachment. But who knows?

[godslave]

Jack always looks so on the edge in these thumbnails geez. Does anyone even listen to them? whenever I watch one of these it's usually "EIE lead with intuition, so they are interested in novel concepts yadda yadda yadda", stuff that you can read up in 5 minutes. man, the state of typology is grim. he seems like such a nerd, and I don't mean that as a criticism, it's just who he is, but it makes me wonder how many people he has actually observed and how much of the stuff he claims to "explain correctly" is actually just imagination and theory and not based on reality.

I do. I haven't missed a single video of his youtube channel. I've downloaded all his videos on socionics except his typing sessions videos but I've watched them all, some several times. In fact, I have a well organized "WSS file" on my computer, I update it each time he make a new video. I've also downloaded his website just three days ago. I like to collect stuff, I'm a bit of an archivist. Also, I'm a big socionics litterature consumer too.

I like Jack, I've followed his personal evolution and growth. That said, I struggle to clearly see his ILE-ness, it's not that obvious to me. I mean, promoting socionics and making a business out of it is fair enough. However, advocating it with such zeal without any criticism for such a long time, and without contributing to its enhancement by for instance integrating new ideas at the fundamental level (system) and experiment them, isn't typical of an ILE-ish mind. I mean, unnecessarily renaming Reinin Dichotomies (albeit with funny terms) just for the sake of it is not enough, that's peanuts for NeTi Ego imho.

Also, the fact that he seems to struggle a bit with his explanations sometimes. Normally, when you hear a Ti creative talking you have a sense of crystal clearness with no hesitation, a sense of total control in the articulation of thoughts (remember 4DTe +3DTi <-->), I don't get that with Jack. That said, maybe what I've just described is more of an ST and LIE thing... (Personally I find LIE and SLE logic the most fluid and comfortable to read and hear...). Also, I have reasons to believe that he hasn't read Jung properly. That's a bit of a problem especially in the context of differentiation between MBTI and socionics which is one the main reasons behind the creation of his rather entertaining and informative "Explain correctly" serie !

But that's just me and I have very very high standards in general !

[Ikite iru]

@godslave: what's funny is that I'm currently still wrtiting this article about IEI's and I mention this desire to catalogue. I think the difference between your Ni and my Ne is that I just simply can't stand repetitive information. I'm really noticing that with Jack as he is essentially repeating the same points in a lot of videos it's really unpleasant to me. Dunno if he wants to create a beginner video series.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dai...uthanasia.html

This is a weird case. Dunno how to feel about it. I've read the story a couple of times over the last months and had a feeling she might do it.

Beek decided she wanted to die after a psychiatrist told her 'there's nothing more we can do for you' and that 'it's never gonna get any better', The Free Press reported.

I don't have anything against the procedure in itself but this seemed...preventable. i think she was an IEI btw. I'm mentioning the type because it is the first to try new things and then after time it gets normalized. Looking at the low birth rates in western nations, I wonder if this will be a more common phenomenon when people are older and without family

[godslave]

@godslave: what's funny is that I'm currently still writing this article about IEI's and I mention this desire to catalogue. I think the difference between your Ni and my Ne is that I just simply can't stand repetitive information. I'm really noticing that with Jack as he is essentially repeating the same points in a lot of videos it's really unpleasant to me. Dunno if he wants to create a beginner video series.

Indeed, I'm not a fan redundancy either when I interact with people but I can tolerate it although I'm very aware of it. Now, it is true that Jack's renaming of some Reinin dichotomies seemed kinda redundant because they don't add meaning and/or clarity, on the contrary they add confusion. That said, I have a typical method of studying interesting abstract stuff*, I would say that there are two main phases in that process :

Phase 1) to explore all the sources I can find on the subject including people's opinions and work on that same topic in order to have a global vision of it and thus a better understand it (and when I say "people" I mean like Jean-Luc Godard would say "The professionals of the profession" !).

Phase 2) kicks in when I feel like I accumulated enough data on the subject and I naturally start to crash test the logic of these ideas and concepts to verify if they hold water and make sense. That's when I become quite critical and might surprise people because up to that moment, I was going with flow and basically learning like a disciple .

 

When it comes to practical stuff, well I just practice the hell out of it until I master the thing. For instance, about 25 years ago, I've took upon myself to memorize the entire Quran, it took me about four years or so. At the same time I was learning electric guitar and was a bit of a metalhead/fusion/Progressive fan. I am a really a walking contradiction/ chameleon.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dai...uthanasia.html

This is a weird case. Dunno how to feel about it. I've read the story a couple of times over the last months and had a feeling she might do it.

Beek decided she wanted to die after a psychiatrist told her 'there's nothing more we can do for you' and that 'it's never gonna get any better', The Free Press reported.

I don't have anything against the procedure in itself but this seemed...preventable. i think she was an IEI btw.

Sad story indeed. The problem with that procedure is the fact that it violates the Prime Directive Hippocratic Oath . Furthermore, we can't help a mentally ill person to die just because that person is suffering mentally. I mean preventing suicide is one of the main point of psychiatry. So from that standpoint it's a nonsense and an insult to the Medical profession. That said, If the person is atrociously suffering physical pain and the chances for that person to get better are 0% then I am for that act of empathy. I mean we do it everyday to some family members, namely our pets, without it bringing moral or ethical controversy, on the contrary we find that "Human".

[Distance]

Indeed, I'm not a fan redundancy either when I interact with people but I can tolerate it although I'm very aware of it. Now, it is true that Jack's renaming of some Reinin dichotomies seemed kinda redundant because they don't add meaning and/or clarity, on the contrary they add confusion. That said, I have a typical method of studying interesting abstract stuff*, I would say that there are two main phases in that process :

Phase 1) to explore all the sources I can find on the subject including people's opinions and work on that same topic in order to have a global vision of it and thus a better understand it (and when I say "people" I mean like Jean-Luc Godard would say "The professionals of the profession" !).

Phase 2) kicks in when I feel like I accumulated enough data on the subject and I naturally start to crash test the logic of these ideas and concepts to verify if they hold water and make sense. That's when I become quite critical and might surprise people because up to that moment, I was going with flow and basically learning like a disciple .

 

When it comes to practical stuff, well I just practice the hell out of it until I master the thing. For instance, about 25 years ago, I've took upon myself to memorize the entire Quran, it took me about four years or so. At the same time I was learning electric guitar and was a bit of a metalhead/fusion/Progressive fan. I am a really a walking contradiction/ chameleon.

Sad story indeed. The problem with that procedure is the fact that it violates the Prime Directive Hippocratic Oath . Furthermore, we can't help a mentally ill person to die just because that person is suffering mentally. I mean preventing suicide is one of the main point of psychiatry. So from that standpoint it's a nonsense and an insult to the Medical profession. That said, If the person is atrociously suffering physical pain and the chances for that person to get better are 0% then I am for that act of empathy. I mean we do it everyday to some family members, namely our pets, without it bringing moral or ethical controversy, on the contrary we find that "Human".

What makes you think you are Fi in your ego, or even being ethical at all?

You go thru everything here at 16T, line by line by line by line distilling statements down contrasting and comparing, looking for discrepancies like a calculator, standing neutral in position, ensconced in a depersonalized vacuum, refereeing the parts of datum to systems of things.

High criticality to making systems of things, that make sense to you, only.

F is character systems, and theory of mind approaches looking how someone might do something or why they might do something, or why not. It is standing in another shoes, not standing in your own.

That bit about my 9/11 input about the jumpers jumping to their death and your possibility of cognitive trauma, making 100's jump out of cognitive dissonance doesn't lend well to making them jump, rather than heat, smoke and flames. People will wait to be rescued until they can't be rescued, not freak out and jump, en masse. Note en masse, as a qualifier for this.

That looks like T type thinking, not personal in your shoes calculating.

[Socionics Is Not A Cult]

“The only function of Socionics is to make astrology look respectable. Nothing so disappoints deserting rats as a ship which refuses to sink.” ― Gulenko

[godslave]

Thank you very much for your time and insights sir !

What makes you think you are Fi in your ego, or even being ethical at all?

What makes you think that I think that I am Fi in my Ego ?

You go thru everything here at 16T, line by line by line by line distilling statements down contrasting and comparing, looking for discrepancies like a calculator, standing neutral in position, ensconced in a depersonalized vacuum, refereeing the parts of datum to systems of things.

High criticality to making systems of things, that make sense to you, only.

F is character systems, and theory of mind approaches looking how someone might do something or why they might do something, or why not. It is standing in another shoes, not standing in your own.

Yes, I mean it depends on which system you are referring to. For instance in Socionics the so called "F" in general is about "energy" either within objects (Fe) or between objects (Fi). Here the word "object" includes human beings of course. Now, theoretically "standing in another shoes" is not the matter of just one Information aspect in the sense that it involves other Information aspects. As a matter of fact our Ego functions esp the lead is very empathetic in the sense that it understand the value of said function in everybody regardless of which IE it is. Furthermore, as you know, there are different kinds of Empathy and like I said, even a T type can be empathetic (It's of the Human condition regardless) :

That bit about my 9/11 input about the jumpers jumping to their death and your possibility of cognitive trauma, making 100's jump out of cognitive dissonance doesn't lend well to making them jump, rather than heat, smoke and flames. People will wait to be rescued until they can't be rescued, not freak out and jump, en masse. Note en masse, as a qualifier for this.

That looks like T type thinking, not personal in your shoes calculating.

/I take note that you are very attentive to what people say in this forum and you can bring back old stuff as a reminder . Keeping track of what you think is the essence of people in general is a good skill that can be handy in various situations. I would say that it is even better if one is willing to be open about the initial image of said person. Otherwise one can fall in the trap of one's own biases especially confirmation biases. That can also be a scary faculty to be honest (at least for me !) but since we are open minded here there is no risk for any kind of inquisition to happen.\

I was aware about the heat, smoke and flames. That's precisely why I brought cognitive dissonance. You might have explained the reason of that phenomenon better than me here. Indeed, your "en masse" term is key. Here you are touching on the subject of group behavior. At some point, if the group in making an "irrational" decision (from the perspective of an outsider) the whole group tends to follow. We can say that it's a kind of gregarious cognitive dissonance. That in fact might be an instinctive phenomenon at the level of group but that principle doesn't apply at the level of the individual outside the group. That said, it is obvious that some individuals within the group are more resistant to it than others. However I think that there is always a breaking point regardless of how resistant a person might be. I think it ties to one of our most archaic fear, namely the fear of ostracization.

This is a variant of a well known phenomenon that can illustrate what can appear to be a cognitive dissonance but is in fact a very rational decision all things considered...

[Enters Laughing]

What makes you think you are Fi in your ego, or even being ethical at all?

You go thru everything here at 16T, line by line by line by line distilling statements down contrasting and comparing, looking for discrepancies like a calculator, standing neutral in position, ensconced in a depersonalized vacuum, refereeing the parts of datum to systems of things.

High criticality to making systems of things, that make sense to you, only.

F is character systems, and theory of mind approaches looking how someone might do something or why they might do something, or why not. It is standing in another shoes, not standing in your own.

That bit about my 9/11 input about the jumpers jumping to their death and your possibility of cognitive trauma, making 100's jump out of cognitive dissonance doesn't lend well to making them jump, rather than heat, smoke and flames. People will wait to be rescued until they can't be rescued, not freak out and jump, en masse. Note en masse, as a qualifier for this.

That looks like T type thinking, not personal in your shoes calculating.

There's nothing empirical about Socionics - who are we to say that someone has a skill inappropriate for a type?

[Ikite iru]

Sad story indeed. The problem with that procedure is the fact that it violates the Prime Directive Hippocratic Oath . Furthermore, we can't help a mentally ill person to die just because that person is suffering mentally. I mean preventing suicide is one of the main point of psychiatry. So from that standpoint it's a nonsense and an insult to the Medical profession. That said, If the person is atrociously suffering physical pain and the chances for that person to get better are 0% then I am for that act of empathy. I mean we do it everyday to some family members, namely our pets, without it bringing moral or ethical controversy, on the contrary we find that "Human".

when I got diagnosed with MS last year, I talked with a bunch of people who had the disease for decades. even 20 years ago, there wasn't really good medication and if you got PPMS, which is the worse version, you were pretty much screwed. I talked with people who would openly tell me that they wished to have the option to end their lives and I totally understood them. when you have no autonomy and are completely dependent on others you should have an option to leave this existence with dignity. it's still not an option in germany. when a 29 year old women kills herself like this, it does make me wonder if society failed. I'm into typology and not a psychologist, I cannot know what went on in her mind and what let her to such a decision, but I cannot help but think that several institutions and people have failed her here, and it feels a bit dystopian to me when it would be an option to end your life on a whim in the future, especially when everything regarding the mental state is so subjective.

[godslave]

when I got diagnosed with MS last year, I talked with a bunch of people who had the disease for decades. even 20 years ago, there wasn't really good medication and if you got PPMS, which is the worse version, you were pretty much screwed. I talked with people who would openly tell me that they wished to have the option to end their lives and I totally understood them. when you have no autonomy and are completely dependent on others you should have an option to leave this existence with dignity. it's still not an option in germany. when a 29 year old women kills herself like this, it does make me wonder if society failed. I'm into typology and not a psychologist, I cannot know what went on in her mind and what let her to such a decision, but I cannot help but think that several institutions and people have failed her here, and it feels a bit dystopian to me when it would be an option to end your life on a whim in the future, especially when everything regarding the mental state is so subjective.

Unfortunately the only thing to blame here is the disease itself. I really like your perspective on that matter. Seeing this kind of tragedy as a collective failure is quite remarkable and speaks volume about your own empathy. I agree that the future of this planet will probably be favorable to all kinds of reforms and legislations that from our perspective could sound like dystopian. I mean, this world and its future are anxiogenic, more so since COVID and I'm afraid that the real psychosocial consequences of that period are yet to come and it affects several generations. I mean there is no doubt that the kids who have suffered the trauma of the lockdown will develop some pathologies in adulthood, that's a lot of kids. Not to mention climate change...

[Northstar]

Was watching the Yellowstone origin series 1923 (all three series are worth watching) and really liked the personality of the character Alexandra. Not sure which xNFP type I'd say she most resembles. Then again, who wouldn't like her, maybe it's more or less universal.

[Enters Laughing]

What makes you think you are Fi in your ego, or even being ethical at all?

You go thru everything here at 16T, line by line by line by line distilling statements down contrasting and comparing, looking for discrepancies like a calculator, standing neutral in position, ensconced in a depersonalized vacuum, refereeing the parts of datum to systems of things.

High criticality to making systems of things, that make sense to you, only.

F is character systems, and theory of mind approaches looking how someone might do something or why they might do something, or why not. It is standing in another shoes, not standing in your own.

That bit about my 9/11 input about the jumpers jumping to their death and your possibility of cognitive trauma, making 100's jump out of cognitive dissonance doesn't lend well to making them jump, rather than heat, smoke and flames. People will wait to be rescued until they can't be rescued, not freak out and jump, en masse. Note en masse, as a qualifier for this.

That looks like T type thinking, not personal in your shoes calculating.

Does you pointing out facts make you -leading, or is it more the case you are engaging in logical reasoning by pointing out discrepancies in a individual's behaviour in contravention of what dogma permits make you -leading? Or should your entire argument be dismissed because you are identify as -leading?

(I don't mean to be nasty, but I find these binary arguments ridiculous especially when there's no empirical data to point to).

[Distance]

Does you pointing out facts make you -leading, or is it more the case you are engaging in logical reasoning by pointing out discrepancies in a individual's behaviour in contravention of what dogma permits make you -leading? Or should your entire argument be dismissed because you are identify as -leading?

(I don't mean to be nasty, but I find these binary arguments ridiculous especially when there's no empirical data to point to).

This was between me and godslave. It has to do with typology, and patterns within typology. You come here to inject Big 5. Go right ahead. You've shown your attitude toward Socionics here on the forum, your utter disdain for it.

Burn it down is the vibe.

If you want to make a sounding board for your case no one is stopping you. But do not stop others because you claim the best truth.

[Enters Laughing]

This was between me and godslave. It has to do with typology, and patterns within typology. You come here to inject Big 5. Go right ahead. You've shown your attitude toward Socionics here on the forum, your utter disdain for it.

Burn it down is the vibe.

If you want to make a sounding board for your case no one is stopping you. But do not stop others because you claim the best truth.

Pointing something out only stops others if they desire to learn from it.

[Distance]

Pointing something out only stops others if they desire to learn from it.

Burn it down Subteih, no one is stopping you.

[Enters Laughing]

Burn it down Subtieh, no one is stopping you.

My primary concern here is that people don't follow something which has no evidence, rather than "burning it down". I don't need to say it's false when there's no evidence to say it's true.

[Distance]

My primary concern here is that people don't follow something which has no evidence, rather than "burning it down". I don't need to say it's false when there's no evidence to say it's true.

If you say so, Subteigh.

[Enters Laughing]

Burn it down Subteih, no one is stopping you.

Is this -lead emotional manipulation, or Genghis Khan Hidden Agenda?

[Distance]

Is this -lead emotional manipulation, or Genghis Khan Hidden Agenda?

Don't mirror the fanatics, Subteigh.