ESI/LIE Conversations

[Adam Strange]

I'm redecorating my house and I'm using an ESI-Se to help set the taste of the place. I can do the structure, but I need help with the appearance of things, and that's what she does very well. She moves furniture around and throws stuff out if it isn't useful any more. We're not at the stage yet where we're buying. She wants everything out first.

One thing I absolutely hate doing is paperwork. As a consequence, I have boxes and boxes of financial records sitting around, unorganized except roughly by year. The ESI wants to get rid of them, and I'm fine with that, as long as I don't need something for a future duel with the IRS. The ESI said, "I can't decide what to keep and what to throw out. Only you can do that."

"Right," I said, despondently. I'm not looking forward to spending time sorting through old papers when I could be making new money.

"Do I have to stand over you to get you motivated?", she asked.

"You know," I said, poking her, "I belong to a personality forum, and there are descriptions written about the two of us together where you are in a dominatrix costume standing over me with a whip."

She laughed. "They miss how this feels. I'm trying to help."

[Eliza Thomason]

I'm redecorating my house and I'm using an ESI-Se to help set the taste of the place. I can do the structure, but I need help with the appearance of things, and that's what she does very well. She moves furniture around and throws stuff out if it isn't useful any more. We're not at the stage yet where we're buying. She wants everything out first.

One thing I absolutely hate doing is paperwork. As a consequence, I have boxes and boxes of financial records sitting around, unorganized except roughly by year. The ESI wants to get rid of them, and I'm fine with that, as long as I don't need something for a future duel with the IRS. The ESI said, "I can't decide what to keep and what to throw out. Only you can do that."

"Right," I said, despondently. I'm not looking forward to spending time sorting through old papers when I could be making new money.

"Do I have to stand over you to get you motivated?", she asked.

"You know," I said, poking her, "I belong to a personality forum, and there are descriptions written about the two of us together where you are in a dominatrix costume standing over me with a whip."

She laughed. "They miss how this feels. I'm trying to help."

Adam, I am enjoying reading this thread which I haven't seen in awhile. The IRS papers: they are going to be DONE soon. At least put them somewhere poised for trash, for as soon as you have the reality confirmed that there will be no income tax anymore. : )

[Adam Strange]

Adam, I am enjoying reading this thread which I haven't seen in awhile. The IRS papers: they are going to be DONE soon. At least put them somewhere poised for trash, for as soon as you have the reality confirmed that there will be no income tax anymore. : )

@Eliza Thomason, that's exactly what we did. We filed the papers and bagged the receipts by year and threw out everything that was more than five years old.

Now, with every passing year, we will throw out the five-year-old papers. Feels good.

[Adam Strange]

While I was sorting paperwork today (see above post), I was talking to the ESI-Se about Socionics while she was selling my old furniture on Facebook Marketplace.

She hates to hear me talk about Socionics, because it interferes with her prejudice that every person can be any special kind of snowflake that they choose to be, and that nothing is predetermined. However, I'm kind of an asshole and I keep talking about it, although less than I used to when she first started working with me. Fortunately, she seems to forget nothing; she's a typical ESI. Lol.

So I've told her that our Quadra is all about money and contracts, and I'm all about cold hard facts and my ability to be ethical is fairly coarse-grained, in the sense that I'm fine with making laser weapons which will destroy humanity as long as I can make a profit from them. She is wonderful in the sense that she hasn't hit me with a shovel yet. I'm helped by the fact that she can see for herself how well we get along, so I think she's sold on the idea that there are some people out there, not necessarily types, who simply don't fight. She also is able to see the strained interaction that I have with my SLI son, and wanted to know how I felt about that. I told her that I liked and respected him, but the Supervision relationship that he and I have is one of the worst ITRs and it takes work and skill to stay on the sunny side of the street.

It also helps that I've hired other people for this project, and I know all their types and I tell her how their types will interact with both me, her, and with each other. She's beginning to see this stuff. But she's a CP e6, so she Doubts.

Sometimes, I can see the wheels turning in her head, when she is thinking about her past GFs.

She is a "Working" Dual with a different subtype than mine, and I've told her that I have a "Living" Dual, with the same subtype as mine. I can tell that she is intensely interested in this other subtype, and in seeing me interact with her, although she tries to hide this interest.

Today, a woman came to pick up a shelving unit that the ESI-Se posted for sale. The woman walked in the door, then said she had to do something with her car, and bounced out again. When she was out of earshot, I told the ESI-Se that the woman was an ESI-Fi, and the ESI-Se immediately stuck like glue to watch us interact.

The ESI-Fi came in again and I showed her the shelving unit, and she was enchanted. I said, "Do you like it? Really?"

"Yes! My husband and I just moved here and this will be perfect for our place. Why do you ask?"

Before I could answer, the ESI-Se said, "It belonged to his ex-wife and we're making a clean sweep." But that wasn't really the reason that I asked her if she liked it.

I said, "My ex picked this out, and while she normally had terrific taste, I never liked this."

"Well", said the woman. "In that case, I'll drop my offer to $20."

I laughed. "No way. You agreed to buy it at the asking price and you never go back on a contract."

She laughed. "You're right. I never break a contract."

She continued, looking at the ESI-Se, "Should we put this on your credit card or do you prefer cash? Because Cash is King."

The ESI-Se said, "The credit card works", and they completed the transaction and I loaded the shelving unit into her SUV.

As she was getting into the car, I asked her, for the benefit of the ESI-Se, "What does your husband do?"

The ESI-Fi hesitated for just a moment, since this question was outside what was strictly necessary for a mercantile transaction, but she decided that I was OK and answered, "He's a nuclear engineer."
I said, "Yay, Thinkers." She looked thoughtful, smiled, and then off she went.

I looked at the ESI-Se. She started to laugh with amazement. "You did that on purpose. To show me that she was my type. And her husband was your type."

"Yep. Notice she said, Cash is King, she never goes back on a contract, and she's married to a nuclear engineer. Pretty much classic."

The ESI-Se thought about this for a while. "How did you know she was my type? We look completely different."

I said, "It was something in her face. I can see it, but I can't explain it. But with practice, you can do it, too. And you'll need to, because my type is pretty rare."

[Adam Strange]

I'm paying an ESI who works for me enough so she can start investing. I introduced her to my investment guy and I showed her how her money can grow if invested, minus inflation, so she's going to have to watch out for fees and taxes and she should invest carefully but she can stand some risk at this point.

She thanked me and then said, "Do you think there will always be inflation?"

Gak. I didn't know where to begin to answer her and as I struggled to reply, she saw that she had asked a question which made her look massively ignorant, although it's my job to walk her through this process safely.

"Nevermind! Nevermind!", she said, waving her arms in defense. "Tomorrow! You can tell me tomorrow. Right now, we have paperwork to do."

Disaster narrowly averted, I guess.





Hey, in all fairness, when I asked her if I should see an ex-GF just for the sex because I was feeling horny at that moment, she didn't judge me. Or if she did, she kept it to herself and just said "No. That wouldn't be fair to her."

[PinKDiGiT18]

I'm paying an ESI who works for me enough so she can start investing. I introduced her to my investment guy and I showed her how her money can grow if invested, minus inflation, so she's going to have to watch out for fees and taxes and she should invest carefully but she can stand some risk at this point.

She thanked me and then said, "Do you think there will always be inflation?"

Gak. I didn't know where to begin to answer her and as I struggled to reply, she saw that she had asked a question which made her look massively ignorant, although it's my job to walk her through this process safely.

"Nevermind! Nevermind!", she said, waving her arms in defense. "Tomorrow! You can tell me tomorrow. Right now, we have paperwork to do."

Disaster narrowly averted, I guess.





Hey, in all fairness, when I asked her if I should see an ex-GF just for the sex because I was feeling horny at that moment, she didn't judge me. Or if she did, she kept it to herself and just said "No. That wouldn't be fair to her."

Ah, 1D Te at its finest. Sounds like something I would say.

Just a sign the duality is functioning.

[Adam Strange]

I've hired an ESI-Se Dual to help me redecorate my house, and we get along fantastically well, despite her being a 26 yo lesbian and me being a very hetero male who is over twice her age.

Yesterday, I hired a 60-ish female ESE lighting expert to recommend light placements in all the rooms. The three of us went through the house, with the ESI explaining what we were trying to do and what she thinks will be right for each room.

As she was leaving after giving her recommendations, the ESE said she was late for meeting her friends at a bowling alley, but she thought that the ESI and I would be very happy with the house in the future.

When the ESE was gone, the ESI laughed and said "She thought we were together."

"No. I doubt that. ...Well, maybe. We get along like a very compatible married couple."

"She was probing to find out if you were single, to find out if the field was clear for her."

I laughed. "That's possible. I've been talking to a lot of women who are older and are on dating sites, and the number of men who are my age, available, active, and not destitute is very small."

For some reason, the ESI went into deep Introvert mode when she heard that.

[PinKDiGiT18]

I've hired an ESI-Se Dual to help me redecorate my house, and we get along fantastically well, despite her being a 26 yo lesbian and me being a very hetero male who is over twice her age.

Yesterday, I hired a 60-ish female ESE lighting expert to recommend light placements in all the rooms. The three of us went through the house, with the ESI explaining what we were trying to do and what she thinks will be right for each room.

As she was leaving after giving her recommendations, the ESE said she was late for meeting her friends at a bowling alley, but she thought that the ESI and I would be very happy with the house in the future.

When the ESE was gone, the ESI laughed and said "She thought we were together."

"No. I doubt that. ...Well, maybe. We get along like a very compatible married couple."

"She was probing to find out if you were single, to find out if the field was clear for her."

I laughed. "That's possible. I've been talking to a lot of women who are older and are on dating sites, and the number of men who are my age, available, active, and not destitute is very small."

For some reason, the ESI went into deep Introvert mode when she heard that.

I can’t help but feel your decorator might be falling for you just a little bit, sexualities being as they are. If she has never had close contact with a dual, she is likely finding you to be emotionally dependable, which is ever so elusive and refreshing for Fi bases. Every time I read of your interactions with her I can practically hear her giving a sigh of relief that she’s found someone who is understanding of her.

[Adam Strange]

I can’t help but feel your decorator might be falling for you just a little bit, sexualities being as they are. If she has never had close contact with a dual, she is likely finding you to be emotionally dependable, which is ever so elusive and refreshing for Fi bases. Every time I read of your interactions with her I can practically hear her giving a sigh of relief that she’s found someone who is understanding of her.

@PinKDiGiT18, I don't think she's "falling for me", exactly. Rather, I think she's experiencing Duality, and that alone is seductive. We can't help but support each other's weak functions, and by doing so, each of us is relieved of worrying about those peripheral threats to our peace of mind that distract us from using our dominant functions to their full extent. She and I talked about that today.

I told her that she was going to have to pay taxes on the money she was being paid, and she got upset because she wasn't expecting to have to do that. I explained to her how her income will be reported to the IRS by my bookkeeper because, legal, and this surprised her because she thought that this job was "off the table" like her previous jobs and I said, No, you will make enough to pay taxes and I don't need another audit by the IRS (and then I told her about my other audits and their consequences and that's why I walk on the sunny side of the street now) and she got silent and when I asked her what was wrong, she said that she was afraid the IRS would come after her for previous years of unreported income and I said No, she was safe because her earnings weren't that great. Then she said that she was now afraid that she was going to have to learn all about tax law to defend herself (undefended Te) and I asked her if she thought I had to learn all about color matching or if I could just hire it out, and she got it. She doesn't need to learn Te taxes if she has an advisor she trusts. So, I covered her 1D Te.

Then, later, she told me again that she wanted to cook meals for me to get me to live more healthily and to protect me from myself. (She's seen me stirring instant coffee into cold water in a glass jelly jar with my finger and got out her phone to film it.) Well, having someone want to cook me a meal hits me in my weak Fi and I feel "grateful-loved-fearful-undeserving" like the five-year-old that my Fi actually is, and I don't know how to respond to that or how to defend against the intimacy that it represents because the five-year-old inside me was pretty fucked up by his mother's complete lack of Fi love and I get confused and Please stop saying that you want to cook for me and let's talk about something else.

So we cover for each other. But are we falling for each other? I don't think so. I don't have sexual feelings for her, and I'm pretty sure it's mutual, although our level of mutual trust is so great that, if circumstances were different, that would be a very short hop over the broomstick. We're much closer to being mutually understanding buddies right now. She also told me today that she didn't think she would marry a Dual. She said it kind of defiantly, and I said, "You might not", and left it there. But let me tell you, she's going to be measuring all her future relationships against what she's feeling right now.

I do think she finds me irritating at times. She sometimes swears and makes Alphas wince, but she told me to stop using the term "retarded" because it now has bad connotations, and when I quoted to her verbatim a conversation that I had with a racist in Alabama, she told me to never use the N-word, even in quoting, but to instead use the phrase "N-word". Lol. So she's correcting my morals, and she also told me not to tell people in real life exactly what I think of them. Which she has observed me doing several times, because then she had to intercede to smooth things over. She said she's done that several times. Maybe she has; I haven't noticed her doing this, but then, I guess I wouldn't.
Well, yes, she has done that, now that I think of it.

So we're helping each other. I know I'll miss her when she's done with this job. She told me that I have different vibes when she returns to the job after being away for a couple days, and I do feel a loss and honestly, I think I get subconsciously angry when she's not around, but I don't think we're "falling for each other." No. I don't think so.

[PunkSailor]

This is my favorite thread.

[Baqer]

This is my Favorite thread.

God I've stayed out of the gamma threads because i didn't think they were interesting, what a fool I was

[Adam Strange]

I and the 26 yo lesbian ESI-Se who is beautiful and who gives off Wonder Woman vibes walked to the Alpha-owned-and-run specialty food market to get lunch during a work break. We met my 34 yo LIE-0 investment counselor neighbor on the way, who gave her dirty looks and was polite but terse. I think he thinks we are together, and he clearly disapproves.

We shopped, bought our lunch, and the ESI said to me, "I'll be outside while you check out." I paid for my food and as I was leaving, one of the cashiers behind me said to the other one, "What's he got?"

Lol. He's got Duality, babe.

[Adam Strange]

The ESI redecorator spent the morning buying new stuff for the house, and then we spent the afternoon cleaning out all the piles of paper that I've accumulated. Financial records, memories, junk. She said she feels better when she's unencumbered by physical possessions, and I will, too.

I picked up one of those letters you get from your friends around Christmas which summarize their year and have pictures with the text. It was from my best ESI buddy in high school, and it had a picture of him with his ILI wife. I showed it to the ESI and said "This guy was my best friend in high school. That's his wife."

She looked at the picture of the guy. She could see that he had the same build, the same expression on his face as her. "You told me about him. He's the friend that you thought you'd find more of, when you went to college, but you never did."

I looked at the picture. "That's right."

[Adam Strange]

The ESI-Se redecorator keeps reminding me that she's a lesbian.

I know that. I know. She doesn't have to go on about it.

Today, she said she wants to have kids someday. She should. She's high quality.

[Beautiful sky]

The ESI-Se redecorator keeps reminding me that she's a lesbian.

I know that. I know. She doesn't have to go on about it.

Today, she said she wants to have kids someday. She should. She's high quality.

Lol does that mean you would have sex with her?

[Adam Strange]

Lol does that mean you would have sex with her?

I would be willing to have sex with her, and if that led to kids, then all the better, because the world needs more high quality people to solve its problems. But I'm 99.99999999% sure that she wouldn't have sex with me. She's not lying when she says she's a lesbian. I've seen the way she looks at women. And the way that some of them respond to her. It's like, hot and smokey and unbutton that blouse.

Honestly, I think she'd get a donor to have kids. She's only talking to me because I'm the first Dual that she's met, and my God, Duality is appealing.

[Beautiful sky]

I would be willing to have sex with her, and if that led to kids, then all the better, because the world needs more high quality people to solve its problems. But I'm 99.99999999% sure that she wouldn't have sex with me. She's not lying when she says she's a lesbian. I've seen the way she looks at women. And the way that some of them respond to her. It's like, hot and smokey and unbutton that blouse.

Honestly, I think she'd get a donor to have kids. She's only talking to me because I'm the first Dual that she's met, and my God, Duality is appealing.

Yes I know what you mean. You should have seen my ESI aunt and cousin the first time they met a dual. Their eyes and hearts stuck by the LIE. I am Fi and I observe relationships and attractions and that was so flame like.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

The ESI-Se redecorator keeps reminding me that she's a lesbian.

I wonder what would happen if you replied "me too"

[Adam Strange]

I wonder what would happen if you replied "me too"

I told her that she and I have a lot in common. For instance, we both like women.

She did not like that. I thought she'd laugh, but she was not amused for some reason.

[Adam Strange]

ESI-Fi (E9? E4?): “The more I make, the more I spend.”

LIE-Te (e8w7): “I think that’s pretty normal.”

............................

LIE-Te (e8w7): “I think you should get used to making lots of money. What are you going to do with it?”

ESI-Se (e6w7 CP): “I don’t spend much. I believe in living very minimally. Like, I want to fit everything I own into a backpack.
”Maybe you can show me how to invest it?”

LIE-Te (e8w7): “I can do that. The nuts and bolts of it, anyway. You’ll have to decide for yourself what you are comfortable with.”

[Adam Strange]

This isn't an ESI/LIE conversation, but this thread seems to be the most appropriate place to say this without starting a new thread.

At the moment, I have two ESIs in my life. One is an ESI-Se, and the other is an ESI-Fi. They feel very, very different to me, despite me liking both of them a lot.

The ESI-Se feels more like an Activity partner, as if she were an SEE, except she's not as flighty as SEEs.

The ESI-Fi feels more like an EII Semi-Dual to me, except she's able to influence me to do things, which the EIIs are not.

[Adam Strange]

ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think the whole world is going wrong and people are shit.

LIE-Te 8w7: I'm the opposite. I think that we can fix the world and that most people are basically good.

ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think people like YOU are what's wrong with the world.

LIE-Te 8w7: Maybe you can fix things. After all, you're the only person I listen to. You're the only person who seems to be able to get me to do things I don't want to do. Or stop me from doing things I shouldn't do. In return, I can provide you guys with some optimism and an assured, secure future.

ESI-Se CP 6w7: You can't do that. No one can do that. I don't need you in my life.

Editor's note: This is pretty typical of ESI-LIE conversations I've had, especially when the LIE is e8 and the ESI is e6. This is almost certainly why I'm still single.

Let me tell you one thing: LSI's are much more reasonable. They, at least, run on logic.

No, I'll add a second thing. Compared to most LIEs, I'm a fucking idiot.

[Armitage]

ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think the whole world is going wrong and people are shit.

LIE-Te 8w7: I'm the opposite. I think that we can fix the world and that most people are basically good.

ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think people like YOU are what's wrong with the world.

LIE-Te 8w7: Maybe you can fix things. After all, you're the only person I listen to. You're the only person who seems to be able to get me to do things I don't want to do. Or stop me from doing things I shouldn't do. In return, I can provide you guys with some optimism and an assured, secure future.

ESI-Se CP 6w7: You can't do that. No one can do that. I don't need you in my life.

Editor's note: This is pretty typical of ESI-LIE conversations I've had, especially when the LIE is e8 and the ESI is e6. This is almost certainly why I'm still single.

Let me tell you one thing: LSI's are much more reasonable. They, at least, run on logic.

No, I'll add a second thing. Compared to most LIEs, I'm a fucking idiot.

Thanks for sharing your story, I find it very enlightening.

Regarding Climate Change, I too would be offended when people say "everything will be alright", because such thinking undermines the need to take action. Rather I would hear about solutions to convince me why things might end okay. Or even better yet, how I can take action myself to contribute to a solution. I'm not an ESI, but as a fellow Gamma those are my two cents.

Also, you're repeatedly saying that you don't want to help people who you don't know. But how can you be sure of that, if you haven't tried it yet? Te-users need a meaningful goal to strive towards too. If not, we tend to earn a lot of money, only to burnout when we realize money is meaningless when we have no-one to share it with.
If anything, message her that you would like to see the work that she's doing, not just hearing about it. And tell her that you would like giving it a shot yourself. Take a weekend off to visit her in Detroit and join her at her work with disadvantaged people.That way you show to her that you're making an effort to see things from her perspective as well. You might even redeem yourself from "asshole" status when you start connecting to the people you help and find out how rewarding it can be.

Heck, you might even come across some nice lady yourself there. Work, work, work definitely has not been the place to find the person you're looking for, and dating apps and websites tend to be rather superficial. So, there's no better place to find the person who you're looking for than when you explore that which your Dual loves most of all. If anything, it would be a good opportunity to nurture your Fi, which you seem to have neglected for quite long.

Sorry, if I sound rather direct, but I'm a LIE and Dutch. Directness is in my culture, I'm afraid, haha. ��

[Adam Strange]

I hired an ESI-Se Decorator to fix my house, because I sure as hell can’t do it alone. She hasn’t worked specifically as a paid decorator before, but I’ve seen the interior spaces that she has arranged, and they are both appropriately Gamma, which is important to this boy who was raised Delta and wants to get back home, and they are extremely comfortable and tasteful. IMO.
Plus, she’s available for a while and we get along.
Today, she pointed to a wall and said, “That has to go.” So my son and the other Destructor Crew members got the chop saws and sledge hammers and they all took down the wall. It was a huge amount of work.
After the ESI left for the day, my son said, “Dad, you were right about her not having many other jobs. She’s amazed that I get here early and work late. She’s clearly not used to working.”
I said, “Well, it’s not because she doesn’t want to work.”
“No, I didn’t mean that. She jumps right in and she’s learning how to wire and lots of other stuff. But she gets worn out after a few hours. I guess it’s because she has a Master’s in Psychology.”
I said, “It’s because she hasn’t had to work manual jobs. Her parents are well off and she’s not really had to work. Plus, she’s been supported by the State for the last few years.”
He said, “She seems like a Flower Child.”
He was referring to her loud laugh and innocent, wide-eyed approach to life.

“Here, let me show you something.”
I went over to a bookshelf and got down a book.
“When your mother and I were newly married, before you were born, dude, she gave me this book and we read it together. It has a test in it.” The book was Keirsey’s Please Understand Me.
I opened the book to a bookmarked page and said, “Here. Read these two paragraphs.”

Next to the title The ENTJ “Fieldmarshal” was my name, penciled in. A result of one of the tests we took. Under that, it read:

“The ENTJ is a natural “fieldmarshal,” that is, he’s itching to get his hands on several “armies” so that he can marshal his forces and conduct the “war” as it should be conducted. If our ENTJ is in charge of any kind of enterprise, however small, his temperament dictates that he run it as he would his armies – with an eye to long-term strategies and their derivative tactics, logistics, and consequences. In startling contrast to this, the fieldmarshal is enamored by the “flower child,” the bucolic artist ISFP, tranquilly ensconced next to Walden Pond! Perhaps the ENTJ wishes a spouse who will share with him or her the quiet of the forest and field far from the madding crowd, thus separating home from work by a great, insulating distance.”

“Flower child”, my son said aloud, and stopped.

“When I first read that passage, newly married to your mother, I thought it was bullshit. I said, “This book is complete bullshit.” I couldn’t imagine me being with a woman who was a flower child.”

“Well,” he said, “you said something to her a few days ago that really pissed her off. She was mad all day.”

"Do you remember what it was?"

"No."

“Neither do I. I expect that will happen to you with your Duals, too. Duality is not a guarantee that people will get along.”

“OK. Enough of this. You ready to fix these pipes?”

[Eliza Thomason]

...
I went over to a bookshelf and got down a book.
“When your mother and I were newly married, before you were born, dude, she gave me this book and we read it together. It has a test in it.” The book was Keirsey’s Please Understand Me.
I opened the book to a bookmarked page and said, “Here. Read these two paragraphs.”

Next to the title The ENTJ “Fieldmarshal” was my name, penciled in. A result of one of the tests we took. Under that, it read:

“The ENTJ is a natural “fieldmarshal,” that is, he’s itching to get his hands on several “armies” so that he can marshal his forces and conduct the “war” as it should be conducted. If our ENTJ is in charge of any kind of enterprise, however small, his temperament dictates that he run it as he would his armies – with an eye to long-term strategies and their derivative tactics, logistics, and consequences. In startling contrast to this, the fieldmarshal is enamored by the “flower child,” the bucolic artist ISFP, tranquilly ensconced next to Walden Pond! Perhaps the ENTJ wishes a spouse who will share with him or her the quiet of the forest and field far from the madding crowd, thus separating home from work by a great, insulating distance.”

“Flower child”, my son said aloud, and stopped.

“When I first read that passage, newly married to your mother, I thought it was bullshit. I said, “This book is complete bullshit.” I couldn’t imagine me being with a woman who was a flower child.”

“Well,” he said, “you said something to her a few days ago that really pissed her off. She was mad all day.”

"Do you remember what it was?"

"No."

“Neither do I. I expect that will happen to you with your Duals, too. Duality is not a guarantee that people will get along.”

“OK. Enough of this. You ready to fix these pipes?”

I like that book. I also like Gifts Differing, a lot. They are the best of MBTI. In my experience, using the best of MBTI, such as these books, to gain undeerstandign of MBTI, leads to a different understanding of MBTI than you get from online sources. Specifially, I think the 4 letter types tend to be the same as Socionics when you learn MBTI by books, and if you learn MBTI online, you tend to have issues translating MBTI 4-letter types directly into SOcionics 4-letter types - you instead focus on the use of specific functions, and may translate an ISTj into an ISTp. Do you find that they tend to transfer directly, as they do for me? For me, whatever MBTI type I gave a person is alsways turns otu to be the same in Socionics.

But Socionics is FAR superior to MBTI of course.


You son's reaction sounds consistent to SLI for me. My SLI husband also listens openly to new information, but he tends to hold to "conservative", or previously-held-view, as long as possible, particularly concerning long-held views, and he is relieved for any inconsistensies he perceives that prevent him from having to adopt a new view. [in the above case, I can see how your son would need to see more interaction to understand that an ESI being able to be miffed all day does not normally threaten the dual relationship (business or otherwise) but may instead it may show she feels safe and comfortable enough to be miffed. Particularly in a situation where you are paying her!] My husband does use the new information he receives to, in his own time, with his own contemplation - that includes his own reasearch as well as new information that comes to light, to change his viewpoint. He has surprised me a couple of times with this, when, after he has resisted some new idea or view I have presented, I just take the view of "each to his own", and continue to accumulate more knowledge in the new direction or mystery, and he hangs back and watches (kind of covertly, with no pressure from me) and he researches in his own way. Then he sometimes has, in big ways I did not expect, fo rhis very own reasons, later concedes fully or partially to the new direction of thought or views that I am taking. Any departure of views that remain I feel make sense in what I know of him.

I love how it ends up we are on the same road but gettign to our destination in different ways. It's like we are trying to uncover what the truth is on parallel but differning paths. In that way it is like when we watch a movie together. In a given scene, if he makes any comment, it is always evident that we were looking at COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things in the SAME scene. Every time.

(I meant to write just about how your son is like my SLI husbsand, but I veered off into Duality. I find your duality stories heer intersting because I know duals in the other Quadras but not Gamma.)

[Adam Strange]

I’ve been infrequently dating a married-but-separated ESI-Fi for about 16 months. The first ten months were spent exchanging texts on Match.com. We go out to eat and go for walks. It’s very platonic, but she’s the only Dual I’ve run across who is both attractive and even slightly interested in dating. Although our “dates” are about 3-5 weeks apart.

Two weeks ago, she texted me and said she wants to go to Chicago for a couple days, together. I thought, “Great! This could be fun.”

I have some trouble understanding her texts. She’s ESI-Fi, and she thinks the world is centered on herself. For example, she’ll say things that are snippets of conversations she’s had, but will omit the context. I’m supposed to just know what she means.
So I know a lesbian ESI-Se who is sympathetic to my attempts to date the ESI-Fi and I sometimes use her for translation. I’ll show her a text from the ESI-Fi and will tell her what I want to say and she suggests the phrasing.
Shades of Roxanne.
But it has gone great. The ESI-Fi becomes more fluid and responsive in text when the author is the ESI-Se. Lol.

Anyway, I sent the ESI-Fi an itinerary of things to do in Chicago and didn’t hear from her for a week. I asked the ESI-Se to review my text to see if my approach was wrong and she said it seemed generally ok.

”But she hasn’t responded to me for a week!”, I said.

”Yeah, I’ve noticed that,” said the ESI-Se, with a hint of disapproval in her voice.

Having 1D Fi means I’m fucking clueless when it comes to knowing what I can expect from romantic partners. So maybe I’m not asking too much if I expect an SO to actually respond to me when I speak. I’ve read that Gottman says this is the cornerstone of good relationships, but I’m not putting this into practice.

Maybe the ESI-Fi is not the girl for me.


*EDIT*
Now that I think about it, she’s displaying classic “avoidance” symptoms. I told myself that she was just getting over her trust issues that resulted from two bad marriages. She seems to like being hugged when I’m there. But you know, even avoidant people need love. Just not very often, and on their own limited terms.
I already went through an Avoidant relationship with my ex-wife. There’s no need to repeat this.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

I’ve been infrequently dating a married-but-separated ESI-Fi for about 16 months.

I read this and knew immediately this wasn't going to end well. I don't want to seem patronizing but when I see your posts on here I always feel a little sorry for you. You sound like someone who wants to be close to someone but can't quite figure out who you should trust.

You really show me suggestive Fi in action.

Having 1D Fi means I’m fucking clueless when it comes to knowing what I can expect from romantic partners. So maybe I’m not asking too much if I expect an SO to actually respond to me when I speak. I’ve read that Gottman says this is the cornerstone of good relationships, but I’m not putting this into practice.

Maybe the ESI-Fi is not the girl for me.

This further illustrates my point.

Now that I think about it, she’s displaying classic “avoidance” symptoms. I told myself that she was just getting over her trust issues that resulted from two bad marriages. She seems to like being hugged when I’m there. But you know, even avoidant people need love. Just not very often, and on their own limited terms.
I already went through an Avoidant relationship with my ex-wife. There’s no need to repeat this.

It sounds like from what I read she isn't interested in anything long term. Just my 2 cents.

[Eliza Thomason]

I don't know if I agree that this means it's ending or she is disinterested. Maybe. But you definitely never want her to feel sorry/pity for you at all. And also this is certainly the most wrong time of all to correct her on her relationship skills. I do think you just have to sit tight and wait. If you press in, she will pull away. Especially if she is getting scared because of the reasons she gave (her past). So let her be alone since she seems to need that now. It's hard, but it's better than pushing her further. If she sees you are giving her space, she can get comfortable with having the space she wanted, but the big gap should eventually make her curious, and lead to a desire to close it a bit. The curiosity will escalate if she contacts you and finds no sign that she caused any desperation. So just be patient, and seek peace in the waiting.

If you want to understand this romance-dance with one of a pair pulling away from the other, and you want to do well the only thing that works to get her back vs. push her further away, get the book "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson, and he will explain this strategic situation perfectly. See reviews on Amazon. A lot of happy readers. It will give you confidence and hope while you wait. The "technique" in this book saved my sis-in-law's marriage when she was at a simlar crossroads, with a husband turning bored/disintersted (it got him back, and they are still together many years later). Also I recommeneded it to someone here on 16T, when she was unhappily in the same spot, and she got the book, did what was instructed and she said it worked exactly for her! I was so glad for her. (I forget her name here, but i think fox-something). Álso the author tells of how he learned this technique by his wife using it on him in their early dating years, and they are still together many, many years later, too. (Don't let her, or maybe ESI-Se, either, see or read the book. Mystery is everything with this.)

[Adam Strange]

I told this ESI-Se female that I've been occasionally dating an ESI-Fi who doesn't seem very interested in maintaining the relationship. I've been going slow because the ESI-Fi has had two bad marriages and a bad divorce lawyer, etc., etc. and maybe she needs time to heal and to begin to trust again.

The ESI-Se said "Bullshit. I think you should date someone else, rather than wait around forever for something that's never going to happen."

Wow. Timber said that "things happen fast around LIEs", but I think he was referring to work stuff. I'd say that relationship stuff happens fast around ESIs. But I guess if you are an Fi-dom, you spend a LOT of time processing information about relationships. So, you can have the answers ready when needed.

[Eliza Thomason]

I have another series of thoughts to add, regarding your thoughts/concerns that dear ESI-Fi may be an Avoidant Type, which you would understandably want to avoid, since you had a previous long experience with that, which you naturally desire to avoid repeating.

What I want to say is that it likely should take thought, observation, and much time getting to know her to determine whether she is an actual Avoidant Type, or, simply a normal type experiencing needs/desires to act avoidant at times, especiallyt at times when things naturally trigger her past problems with the previous negative relationships.

These triggers are naturally going to happen when she is considering getting deeper in intimacy, especially when/if she is considering a first big step. Which she must have been considering as a desirable step to take at the moment when she suggested an overnight trip with you. But her having second thoughts about getting in deeper in your relationship means a hesitation is normal, considering her past she needs to resolve. [She likely triggered big fears with her suggestion that would/might be a natural going-deeper step, fears that her strong Fi now needs to process alone, resulting in her "rudely" not communicating with you about this change of mind, and whatever it involves for her).

And likewise, you feeling really bad, and even feeling a bit of a sense of betrayal (betrayal is the most painful thing there is) when this hurdle is suddenly and inexpicibly thrown in front of mid-race* is totally understandable, but, for the strategic reasons explained in great detail in the above-mentioned book, your next move in this game of romance is very important, and you want to make big efforts to hide that particular natural reaction from her at this time, keeping your cards close to your chest and wearing your poker face.

If/when she gets over this trigger, IMO, the next triggers that show up should go much easier and easier, and be less and less severe, once she knows what your response to her pulling away is (which is: "easy", and makes her feel safe). For someone with past relationship trauma it is very important not to push the start of intimacy; you need to be extremely patient about that and properly respond to her unforeseen (should be temporary) barricades she throws up like this. Because she IMO is very likely in active healing, thorough your relationship, it is probably a very good sign that triggers happen, because they need to come out in order for her to heal from them, so that she can move forward. Which is the goal!

But you hold a Trump Card, one that can easily result in the Big Jackpot, and that is that this is a Dual relationship, and duals, being in proximity and just simply being your easy, normal authentic selves in each other's company is the most psychologically healing of all relationships. Really! Your relationship and time spent together, (and likely, your friendship with the lesbian ESI-Se is also working this way for you two), even when just texting, is more deeply healing to you both, in a way better, way faster, and way more effective way than would be CBT therapy sessions or expensive long therapy with a psychiatrist! And way more fun.

I think I have heard you express before the desire not to wait about too long for the intimacy in a relationship to begin, so you will consciously need to develop patience here. But the healing will happen with the two duals spending time together. So just let her take her natural Agressor role of your pair, and play the majestic Queen, who is the final authority on exactly when all things are to happen, and you, her Loyal Subjert, who embraces his humble role, wait for her authorative word (timing, etc.) without questioning it, and I think, when it begins to go deep, you will be in it for good. And you will rejoice that it was well worth the wait!

[Hopefuly I haven't jumped to any wrong conclusions here, invalidating what I have opined on, since everything I know about this relationship is just from this thread!]

I want to emphasize my point that while certain episodes may make her seem to be an Avoidant Type, what you are seeing may possibly only be the necessary avoidant behaviors displayed while she is working through triggers to the past that must come out in order to be healed. So there is a difference between avoidant behaviors and Avoidant Personality, and you don't want to misunderstand whatever the reality actually is. Two very diffrent things. One to be avoided, one to be patient about while it is worked through.

Not that I know a lot about Avoidant Personality. What I do know a lot about is Narcicisst Personality Disorder, having lived life with an NPD for many years (the vast bulk of those years, ignorant of the NPD reality, making me the perfect victim to it). Besides that experience, I have read very extenisvely the intellectual and respected works of Dr. Sam Vaknin, NPD, on the subject, and in more recent years, I have watched piles of expert Dr. Ramani videos on NPDs, so I truly do know the NPD subject. And to segway the above topic and this, we live in Narcissistic times, with much of our world run by NPDs, so we are surrounded, and like Avoidant Types vs. avoidant behaviors, it is also easy to confuse NPD types with just narcissistic behaviors (which we all have, to one degree or another). (see in red, below!)


*which, in turn, makes you mindful of other inexplicable things she has done, like, as you described above, telling a thing while leaving out the entire context. Which is confusing! But that one is easy. You ARE her Dual, and you can laugh it off and be frank and tell her how confusing this is to you, like, "Hey! You left out the context! How am I supposed to get that?!"

Which is also a very loving thing, because behind that frank statement, you are actually saying: "I am listening to you, because you are so important to me, in every way, and I want to understand everything you say, because everything about you matters to me. So please, enlighten me to your ways, O my Dual, who is opposite of me in every way/function, excepting our j/p preference!"
___________


Yes, it takes work for Duals to get off the ground, and for the connection to be sealed, but at least you have been granted the Socionics aforeknowledge that once the connection is made, it becomes harder and harder, practically impossible to sever. It's a pretty permanent tie! Worth the work for sure! So I discern that maybe for you a big part of this work will be patience, particularly magnified and painful to give at times such as these. To sacrfice (or put off), to die (temporarily) to your great desire by granting her the great gift of patience, is heroic. And who doesn't love a man who lays down his life for her? Really, that is the stuff of the ultimate romantic hero.

___
And so now, in this little paragraph, I want to take the opportunity to segway into a statment that I am glad to have the opportunity to make, because it is the truth, and I like to state the truth. The LYING MEDIA of our times - - and that Media of today is in fact exactly PERFECTLY described 2000 years ago, by the Apostle John, in the Book of Revelation, in the form of a [I]very[/] strange creature, so strange that it all these centruies of Bible study by the most excellent and most intelligent theologians of all times it can ONLY be recognized in these very days - - THAT lying Media, that likes to repeart and repeat what they KNOW are LIES**, because, they know that if you repeat a lie often enough people will think it is the truth, and they are unrepentant liars and they can only lie. One of the many, many lies they like to repeat and repeat, so that you can believe it on that basis alone, is that President Donald J. Trump is an NPD. He is NOT, which is why NO true NPD expert is EVER interviewed saying that he is an NPD. Everybody has narcissitic behaviors. SLEs included. Our President Donald J. Trump is NOT an NPD.

**The Media has been on this lying mission with determined unrelenting constancy for decaades. They are the enemy, and they do not have our good in mind. Never, never forget the most timely quote, nor the context of when and where it was made, of former CIA Director William Casey's "We will know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."
_________

[Great]

ESI: *existential worry about climate change*
LIE: Everything is going to be fine.

Sometimes I don't want to share my worries with LIE because I feel brushed off.

[Adam Strange]

ESI: *existential worry about climate change*
LIE: Everything is going to be fine.

Sometimes I don't want to share my worries with LIE because I feel brushed off.

Would it be better to hear that we'll all be dead in fifty years and there's nothing, absolutely nothing, that you can do to change that fact?

Forty-three percent of humanity is busy punching holes in the hull of the Titanic as it is sinking.

[Great]

Would it be better to hear that we'll all be dead in fifty years and there's nothing, absolutely nothing, that you can do to change that fact?

Yeah, you do have a point. Makes me wonder if I'm expecting too much.

[Adam Strange]

When I and my "ideal" ESI-Se CP e6w7 female Dual go out to buy stuff, people assume that we're together. Personality-wise, we're an almost perfect match.
She just told me that she likes it when her SO's are sexually aggressive.

So what's stopping me? Not the fact that she sleeps with women. I don't care about that.

Maybe it's the fact that she's 26 and I'm older than her father. That might be it.

FML and my ethics.

[Adam Strange]

I’m almost done with working with an ESI-Se on redecorating my house. She set out a vision that I like and appreciate and it’s being implemented.

She said she wants to work with me on future projects. I’m up for that because we work well together.

She’s kind of a perfect Socionics and Enneagram match for me, and she’s got a Secure attachment style. She said she feels protective of me and I definitely have her back. I told her that if I had two wishes, they would be that I would be 29 and she would be straight. We both laughed at the impossibility of this.

Well, I was laughing on the outside, anyway.

[Adam Strange]

I've been paying the ESI-Se redecorator a lot, compared to what most people make.

I'm 1D Fi so I have trouble assigning value to things, including my own actions. Worst case, I've asked myself if I'm grooming her for future sex, but I don't think the evidence bears this out. I'm attracted to her ESI-ness and her mental health, and not her body, believe it or not. Besides, she's a lesbian so there's no real potential there.
Instead, I think I'm paying her a lot to keep her around (she's e6w7 and tends to wander, and God, I like having her around), and also to bring her up closer to my own level of earning. (Gamma is a democratic Quadra.) Not everyone realizes just how much money there is out there, so I'm helping her get used to making a lot. I'm not sure how much she's going to make as a social worker, which she's training for.

She said that, as part of her training, the U of M is going to send her to Detroit to work with disadvantaged people. Her father is an immigration lawyer and her mother is a therapist, so she has been immersed in a culture of caring.

I said to her, "I respect that. Helping people, that is. Personally, I could help them, but I don't want to."

She thought about that for a minute. "That's because you're an asshole."

The funny thing is, while I am an asshole, or can certainly play one well*, I didn't feel like she was exactly condemning me when she said that.



*

No, come to think of it, I actually, naturally, am an asshole. It's "human" that I'm trying to play well.

I told her, in a moment of weakness, that my being an asshole is why I need her around; to mitigate my worst tendencies. She scowled at me and then she laughed.

I'm falling in like with her. Friendship is when you know exactly who the other person is, and you like them anyway.

[Grendel]

pingas

[Adam Strange]

I don't normally obsess over what people think of me, but I can't seem to let go of the fact that an ESI 6w7 called me an asshole and said that I'm what's wrong with the world.

Not that she's wrong. No.

I'm just wondering if I should try to be a better person. How would that even look?

[Adam Strange]

I’ve been sinking into depression for the last few days. I can feel it. The ESI-Se who said I’m an asshole is going to start grad school this week and that will be the end of our contacts for a while. Months, maybe a year.

She called me this morning and said she starts school tomorrow. She sounded nervous. She said she wants to come over for an hour and talk about life, the universe, and everything.

My depression just vanished. She has said that being around me calms her down. Maybe she needs me the way I need her.

If you could bottle Duality and sell it, you’d be a very rich individual.

[Adam Strange]

LIE: "All my life, I've been trying to excel. I've always wanted to be better than the average person and to stand out in some way. Maybe this was due to being told by my parents that I didn't measure up to their expectations, but in any case, I've had to work really hard to achieve the things I've done."

ESI: "What you really need is simple affirmation that you're worth spending time with."

LIE thinks, "Damn, she's right. That's the essential lack that runs through my entire life. But that's not all I need. I also need a smart, attractive babe who thinks for herself."