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Thread: Greater attraction to Activity and Illusionary relations than to Dual

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    Default Greater attraction to Activity and Illusionary relations than to Dual

    Per the title, is that the product of dysfunction, given that a dual relation is meant to effectuate typological completiton? In shunning it for immediate, unchallenging and comfortable stimulation?

    Perhaps it is that dual relations are most rewarding but most taxing - whereas based upon the descriptions of Illusionary and Activity relations - they are gratifying without having to do too much to gain it; and happily require that participants of the respective dynamics, separate so that they don't either overstimulate the other in the case of Activity partners or because accomplishing a task of any great significance with Illusionary partners, is described as an impossibility - and that lesiurely frivolity is all that is feasible.

    Specific to my type, the ILI, I find SEEs (sorry to any SEEs) unbearably hedonistic, hyperactive, superfical, myopic and whorish (male or female). Whereas I'm far more endeared by ESIs and their manner, as they seem much more elegant, considered, attentive to detail, artistic, mature, calm, asethetic, stylish, introspective (as introverts of course) channelled and peaceful. And I don't see any reason for myself to have a bias against SEEs in favour of ESIs - although my first crush as a nine year old was for an ESI. But I see much of those traits in other ESIs that I've met. Similarly, I cannot tolerate SLEs, whereas LSIs seem much more thoughtful and strategic. I attribute my preference to a secondary Se lending itself to being a tool to the person rather than governance of them. Primary Se users are inescapably childish in their energeticness with very short attention spans to me. I'd like to know if I could possibly improve that perception.

    Relative to IEEs, it's obviously for the comfort of sharing the same primary function, while feeling simultaneously somewhat productive, how ever fleetingly, for training one's mobilising function with their creative function, while the mutual primary function serves as a mediator or translator.

    From what I can tell, it seems that I'm more comfortable training my suggestive Se with those who only use it in service of a stronger function and gain from seeing a primary function in common, being used to translate or subordinate one's mobilising function as a creative function in the Illusionary partner.

    Ultimately, is it normal for dual/semi dual relations to generate psychic unease, can it be lessened or done away with and is it symptomatic of neglecting Se?

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    I would go as far as to say what you are experiencing is probably the norm, especially if you haven't found a dual that's "just right" yet and have managed to be intimate with them. I still feel this unease with some IEIs sometimes, even though I've had good experiences with them at other times.

    Actually attempting to enter deeper relationships with all of these different relations has changed my perceptions, and also dealing with life, and observing others who can't deal with life. A way to quickly change your perception is to realize that your life might be significantly harder if you have to experience entire swathes of humanity as being autistic cunts. It's far easier to realize that you're probably just a cunt too and learn to get along.

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    I think the consensus is that people generally aren't attracted at first glance to dual partners. In many respects one's dual is their complete opposite, and there's not generally much to "relate" to in terms of how each thinks. But the idea is that this difference is complementary and stimulating, whereas other pairings are more likely to develop friction or can come to feel stagnant.

    My own experience, for what it's worth, is that I don't really pay much attention to ESEs at first; they live in completely different worlds, and to the extent I think of them they seem to me generally superficial and obsessed with petty concerns. But interacting with them is pleasant. The experience obviously differs from each dual pair to the next, but IME LII-ESE duality manifests mostly through pleasant conversation and lighthearted interest in the other -- and maybe the ESE feeding the LII. And ESEs are frequently intelligent in their own ways -- this probably sounds really odd, but I know an ESE who's the president of a philosophy honors society on campus. I wouldn't have really considered ESEs to be interested in such subjects if I'd just stuck to my initial impressions of them and never gotten to know any.

    Re. SEEs being hedonistic and whorish, wouldn't you say it's admirable? They're straightforward and know exactly what they want; can you say the same for yourself? My experience of ILIs is that they themselves are the greatest hedonists of all when given the chance, and worse, are secretive in this respect, disregarding ethical rules for themselves while insisting on their applicability to others. Take sex -- Balzac himself courted a married woman for several years. They frequently pig out on fine food and drink, and I've known ILIs to drop hundreds of dollars for two days' worth of expensive food. If you are ILI, I'd guess you have a few habits which ought to preclude your characterization of SEEs.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 10-01-2019 at 04:38 AM.

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    Maybe , possibly. I must say that there is something mildly icky about illusionary's weaker functions as a wholesome combo. However, at least I tend let it pass by and never truly criticize face to face. Peaceful at least.

    Activity tends to be very easy to laugh at each other. However this duality is sometimes quite eh.
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    I find SEEs unbearably hedonistic, hyperactive, superfical, myopic and whorish

    I think these are all accurate descriptors except for myopic (in the sense of unimaginative or lacking intellectual insight, nearsighted is true). I dont think thats true unless theyre unhealthy. The SEEs I know thirst for insights and knowledge (a combo of Ni seeking and Te hidden agenda) and theyre often intelligent (especially emotionally intelligent which is taken for granted) and well read on many different subjects. Se isnt just about being a roid rager dominating everything, its also a function of perception that takes in reality unfiltered. Facts are a staple of reality.

    Im not for sure that Im SEE (ExFx and not ESE, fo sho), but just thought Id chime in with that. Speaking from the SEE perspective, Im not attracted to LIEs beyond friendship and not really friends with many to begin with, but I share your attraction to ESIs. Im not particularly attracted to illusionary though. I find that Im highly attracted to my semi dual instead. All of my exes have been ESI or IEI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    Per the title, is that the product of dysfunction, given that a dual relation is meant to effectuate typological completiton? In shunning it for immediate, unchallenging and comfortable stimulation?

    Perhaps it is that dual relations are most rewarding but most taxing - whereas based upon the descriptions of Illusionary and Activity relations - they are gratifying without having to do too much to gain it; and happily require that participants of the respective dynamics, separate so that they don't either overstimulate the other in the case of Activity partners or because accomplishing a task of any great significance with Illusionary partners, is described as an impossibility - and that lesiurely frivolity is all that is feasible.

    Specific to my type, the ILI, I find SEEs (sorry to any SEEs) unbearably hedonistic, hyperactive, superfical, myopic and whorish (male or female). Whereas I'm far more endeared by ESIs and their manner, as they seem much more elegant, considered, attentive to detail, artistic, mature, calm, asethetic, stylish, introspective (as introverts of course) channelled and peaceful. And I don't see any reason for myself to have a bias against SEEs in favour of ESIs - although my first crush as a nine year old was for an ESI. But I see much of those traits in other ESIs that I've met. Similarly, I cannot tolerate SLEs, whereas LSIs seem much more thoughtful and strategic. I attribute my preference to a secondary Se lending itself to being a tool to the person rather than governance of them. Primary Se users are inescapably childish in their energeticness with very short attention spans to me. I'd like to know if I could possibly improve that perception.

    Relative to IEEs, it's obviously for the comfort of sharing the same primary function, while feeling simultaneously somewhat productive, how ever fleetingly, for training one's mobilising function with their creative function, while the mutual primary function serves as a mediator or translator.

    From what I can tell, it seems that I'm more comfortable training my suggestive Se with those who only use it in service of a stronger function and gain from seeing a primary function in common, being used to translate or subordinate one's mobilising function as a creative function in the Illusionary partner.

    Ultimately, is it normal for dual/semi dual relations to generate psychic unease, can it be lessened or done away with and is it symptomatic of neglecting Se?
    Gulenko has said dual relations aren't the most "relaxing" (implying always a passive cake walk) at all - you would be looking at "identity relations", if you are still looking for "considered, attentive to detail, artistic, mature, calm, asethetic, stylish, introspective". (BTW introspective people are the intuitives not extroverts, extrotims are just the tims that have high energy; ILE and LIE are not very sociable at all, in their most regressive state they are autistic people with a lot of adventurous). The thing about dual relations is that they are the "most engaging relations" out there, but they come with the risk that when neither party understands/respects either sides then the opposite nature becomes torturous. (Contrary to popular interpretation duality can be either ultra great & ultra sucky).

    No offence but, you are clearly not "dualised" because you have a shallow understanding of SEEs if they are simply: "unbearably hedonistic, hyperactive, superfical, myopic and whorish (male or female)". Compared to you ILIs they are experts in politics, the interpersonal world ruling through chaos - being ultra charming one time and entirely destructive severing relations the next, at times going back and forth between the two but bizarrely being on top of things. There is a lot SEEs are privy too but you don't get to notice because you see things from the opposite end, you don't get to notice that they are actually more open-minded and pragmatic paying attention to everything - whilst you lie to yourself saying that "you only pay attention to things that matter" (it's a common self esteem defense mechanism introtims have when extroverts get annoyed with the low energy/focus introtims have).


    I forgot to add, "identity relations" are interesting on novelty terms but after sometime you get to realise how boring they are, the enjoyment is never appreciated unless either parties finds themselves with new and interesting information and perspectives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Re. SEEs being hedonistic and whorish, wouldn't you say it's admirable? They're straightforward and know exactly what they want; can you say the same for yourself? My experience of ILIs is that they themselves are the greatest hedonists of all when given the chance, and worse, are secretive in this respect, disregarding ethical rules for themselves while insisting on their applicability to others. Take sex -- Balzac himself courted a married woman for several years. They frequently pig out on fine food and drink, and I've known ILIs to drop hundreds of dollars for two days' worth of expensive food. If you are ILI, I'd guess you have a few habits which ought to preclude your characterization of SEEs.
    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post

    Re. SEEs being hedonistic and whorish, wouldn't you say it's admirable? They're straightforward and know exactly what they want; can you say the same for yourself? My experience of ILIs is that they themselves are the greatest hedonists of all when given the chance, and worse, are secretive in this respect, disregarding ethical rules for themselves while insisting on their applicability to others. Take sex -- Balzac himself courted a married woman for several years. They frequently pig out on fine food and drink, and I've known ILIs to drop hundreds of dollars for two days' worth of expensive food. If you are ILI, I'd guess you have a few habits which ought to preclude your characterization of SEEs.
    By all means, sure - but to generalise for a moment by citing the archetypal stereotype of them - they're incredibly loud and animalistic about it. When I think of all of the bimbos who take selfies everyday, or the infernal social media 'influencer' - SEEs are the first people I think of. I'll state, that the difference in my opinion, between they and the fifteen other types, is that, while the others may succumb to hedonism just as we may also succumb to escapism - it's as though hedonism is their master, the highest good and some ideal to strive after, rather than maybe what is merely a creative outlet, a means to forget or distract from other facets of living.

    If they were required to live ascetically, because it would benefit people in their lives and because all that could be afforded were the bare essentials - I'm convinced that a great many would devise some halfbaked justification for partying every weekend and buying lavish clothes.

    By the way, these are who I think of when I contrast by extremes:

    The wholesome and sweet ISFj fcxzdg.jpgas compared to the predatory and opportunistic ESFp 5fsfgcs.jpg

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    I tend to like mirrors myself, which I always said before knowing about Socionics, what a mirror type was or that a partner of mine just so happened to be a mirror type. I always used that word, "mirror". I think it's different for everyone, what they are willing to work with, if they need a more balanced relationship, etc. I tend to like having a lot of mutual/deep understanding with a partner, but with some differences to make it more interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    No offence but, you are clearly not "dualised"
    If I was dualised, obviously I wouldn't be asking whether or not its dysfunctional of me to shun them in favour of other relations...


    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    because you have a shallow understanding of SEEs if they are simply: "unbearably hedonistic, hyperactive, superfical, myopic and whorish (male or female)". Compared to you ILIs they are experts in politics, the interpersonal world ruling through chaos - being ultra charming one time and entirely destructive severing relations the next, at times going back and forth between the two but bizarrely being on top of things. There is a lot SEEs are privy too but you don't get to notice because you see things from the opposite end, you don't get to notice that they are actually more open-minded and pragmatic paying attention to everything - whilst you lie to yourself saying that "you only pay attention to things that matter" (it's a common self esteem defense mechanism introtims have when extroverts get annoyed with the low energy/focus introtims have).
    I really do, because I only think of them as party animals who have to 'live in the moment' or act on impulse; even if they squander the potentality of future outcomes by doing so, for being too restless to just merely remain an observer.

    If you could direct me to real life examples of those who are more principled about application of their primal and excitable energy, that'd be swell. Perhaps this is particular to each of the sexes, because I fail to see how the unflattering traits don't apply to a lot of female SEEs, just by aggregation of all of the ones that I've met and know of. Though, then I think of the Justin Biebers of the world and determine that they're guilty of it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    open-minded and pragmatic paying attention to everything
    Or fail to recognise the cyclical or recurring nature of events (Ni) to instead pattern seek, but just expend energy needlessly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    (it's a common self esteem defense mechanism introtims have when extroverts get annoyed with the low energy/focus introtims have)
    You would have a point, if my harsh criticism was directed at *all* extroverts - which it isn't. I recognise the value of the outward proactivity that is common to a lot of them - it's just that I find the primary Se kind, to be easily distracted by the new and shiny novelty, without taking stock of what is already ascertained and start to establish dichotomies, frameworks, categories or starting priniciples to apprehend the new (like any good judger ^^) rather than addressing it bare or empty-handed and subsequently being lost to each new development, because they don't seek to formalise or categorise them to therefore compare (like Ne dominants relative to abstract concepts).
    Last edited by DrNefarioious97; 10-02-2019 at 12:30 AM.

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    most probably mistyping
    if you decide by a small number of people - nontypes factors may influence higher
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    By all means, sure - but to generalise for a moment by citing the archetypal stereotype of them - they're incredibly loud and animalistic about it. When I think of all of the bimbos who take selfies everyday, or the infernal social media 'influencer' - SEEs are the first people I think of. I'll state, that the difference in my opinion, between they and the fifteen other types, is that, while the others may succumb to hedonism just as we may also succumb to escapism - it's as though hedonism is their master, the highest good and some ideal to strive after, rather than maybe what is merely a creative outlet, a means to forget or distract from other facets of living.
    As opposed to escapism? How is the one better than the other? And isn't "escapism" really a form of hedonism anyway?

    If they were required to live ascetically, because it would benefit people in their lives and because all that could be afforded were the bare essentials - I'm convinced that a great many would devise some halfbaked justification for partying every weekend and buying lavish clothes.
    I don't think it's the SEE way to attempt rationally justifying their desires. But regardless, SEEs aren't inherently financially irresponsible. They're human, after all, and generally able to keep themselves alive and housed. I imagine that they might be more inclined than other types to see money as a means of satisfying needs/desires rather than something which should be continually accumulated, but that's no great sin.

    By the way, these are who I think of when I contrast by extremes:

    The wholesome and sweet ISFj fcxzdg.jpgas compared to the predatory and opportunistic ESFp 5fsfgcs.jpg
    From my perspective, the SEE looks intelligent, socially comfortable, and as if she knows what she wants. The ESI seems passive, lacking an interesting personality, and as if she'd crumple in a tense situation.

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    SEEs can be deep and interesting ppl just like everyone else.

    1) ppl mistype others based on stereotypes and not on socionics IMs
    2) the more different you are from a type, the more you focus on and misinterpret their superficial qualities

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    If I was dualised, obviously I wouldn't be asking whether or not its dysfunctional of me to shun them in favour of other relations...
    Introspection is progress so there is that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    I really do, because I only think of them as party animals who have to 'live in the moment' or act on impulse;
    I see you haven't met any or perhaps you only think of them as being a caricature. I do not think you understood this part of my quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman
    There is a lot SEEs are privy too but you don't get to notice because you see things from the opposite end, you don't get to notice that they are actually more open-minded and pragmatic paying attention to everything - whilst you lie to yourself saying that "you only pay attention to things that matter"
    They always pay attention to the world and embrace all that is happening; there is always a lot that is happening to the world and they are always paying attention and embracing numerous opportunities from business, to information - educating themselves on anything interesting them, always learning about life. (HIGH IQ SEE (or S types) are mistaken for intuitives under the prejudice that "S" don't think about ideas). SEE think about the future but from the style of ENTPs with Ne never following any structure embracing new information as it arises in an adhoc way.

    BTW the "future" is not a real place but rather a projection upon reality that arises from the interpretative perception intuitives have. Intuitives don't see the world as it is, but rather they are projecting their insights - there you can find crazy and genius insights in that "off" view - but most people are average so you just get "off" views in the average.

    In real life you find that socionists have been slightly wrong - "sensorics" think about the future but through making projection based on a direct perception of the world. They make future plans, as real people do, through reading data about the world as it is. It's different from the intuitive/interpretive reading between the lines projection onto the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    even if they squander the potentiality of future outcomes by doing so, for being too restless to just merely remain an observer.
    Again this perception is wrong, because you are undermining extrotims, Extroverts have to be "active" to be sufficiently stimulated. Their path towards the future is always in the moment taking advantage information as it arises in the stream of consciousness quickly taking advantage and acting on hot opportunities that can easily disappear.

    You'll find ENTP (ENXX in general) annoying because they believe in acting on the information they've just gotten and running away with it. These guys will confuse you because socially they are introverted, they even seem "introverted" because as intuitives they have an interpretive view of the world - they never pay attention to the world as it is (being inside their heads). However that high energy, restlessness is why it can be difficult to fro introtims to work side by side with extrotims.

    They find the measured approach introtims have under-stimulating and frustrating, just as you find reacting seemingly "senselessly" over-stimulating and frustrating.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    If you could direct me to real life examples of those who are more principled about application of their primal and excitable energy, that'd be swell. Perhaps this is particular to each of the sexes, because I fail to see how the unflattering traits don't apply to a lot of female SEEs, just by aggregation of all of the ones that I've met and know of. Though, then I think of the Justin Biebers of the world and determine that they're guilty of it too.
    Viktor Gulenko types Blair and Trump as SEE, it makes sense once you stop thinking of SEEs as only idiots, Boris Johnson is another SEE. I believe these are the types of SEEs that defy your stereotype.

    SEEs enjoy theatrics it's part of their social maneuvering that really doesn't make any sense if you are weak in E/Fe, but then again not all theatrics are created equally. You are going to find crappy and masterful displays.







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    I think that ESI example pic you posted is really EII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh meat View Post
    I think that ESI example pic you posted is really EII.
    I agree. She has a Delta Infantile look.

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    My activity relation is ALL THE TIME. It's hard to keep up with them.

    My mirror is a good relationship if you like talking about your math homework together. That's something pals are good at, not romantic partners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh meat View Post
    I think that ESI example pic you posted is really EII.
    I was considering saying something about that in my post, but A) you can't be 100% certain of typing someone through a single photo, and B) I didn't think the OP would accept my retyping her from a single photo. My comment was meant to hint at my thoughts about it; essentially, that passive dreamlikeness isn't an impression ESIs give off. They're more ice queens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    My experience of ILIs is that they themselves are the greatest hedonists of all when given the chance, and worse, are secretive in this respect, disregarding ethical rules for themselves while insisting on their applicability to others. Take sex -- Balzac himself courted a married woman for several years. They frequently pig out on fine food and drink, and I've known ILIs to drop hundreds of dollars for two days' worth of expensive food. If you are ILI, I'd guess you have a few habits which ought to preclude your characterization of SEEs.
    I have been researching Theodore Millon's work. He seemed to be ILI. Regarding his private life excerpts: he was really like that in his inner circle burning money on glorious happenings in his inner circle and being quite festive. He seemed to be some sort of extraverted subtype (and he typed him self having narcissistic characteristics) as he had very little shame over it.
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    Attraction is largely animalistic and seems to have more to do with upbringing and influences than it does type. Illusionary relations can be quite good but Activity partners can be rather challenging when it comes to doing critical (to both parties) activities together over a sustained periods of time. I've had relationships with duals that didn't work out and I'm not naturally attracted to dual personalities but in hindsight, a dual has been my best partner by far. When it comes to matters of the heart, it can be almost impossible to set aside one's desire and focus on need (or what's good for oneself). For me it was simple luck that I ended up and remained with a dual - and I repeat that I can only say that in hindsight because for a long time, I questioned the relationship.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Attraction is largely animalistic and seems to have more to do with upbringing and influences than it does type. Illusionary relations can be quite good but Activity partners can be rather challenging when it comes to doing critical (to both parties) activities together over a sustained periods of time. I've had relationships with duals that didn't work out and I'm not naturally attracted to dual personalities but in hindsight, a dual has been my best partner by far. When it comes to matters of the heart, it can be almost impossible to set aside one's desire and focus on need (or what's good for oneself). For me it was simple luck that I ended up and remained with a dual - and I repeat that I can only say that in hindsight because for a long time, I questioned the relationship.......

    a.k.a. I/O
    @Rebelondeck, I agree that some Dual relationships are hard to start.
    I'm working with a male ESI on a large automotive project and at first, the guy seemed to be working in opposition to me. Plus, as males go, he's not a very manly or attractive guy, and I assume that he's representative of his type (so females of his ilk might easily be missed by me). However, as the weeks have gone by, he and I have begun working in almost perfect harmony. I don't know how I appear to him, but I'd say that I inspire the team to future, guaranteed solutions, and he is the one who goes out and finds components and arranges meeting times and keeps everyone informed about progress. I can't express how valuable this guy is to the project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    As opposed to escapism? How is the one better than the other? And isn't "escapism" really a form of hedonism anyway?



    I don't think it's the SEE way to attempt rationally justifying their desires. But regardless, SEEs aren't inherently financially irresponsible. They're human, after all, and generally able to keep themselves alive and housed. I imagine that they might be more inclined than other types to see money as a means of satisfying needs/desires rather than something which should be continually accumulated, but that's no great sin.



    From my perspective, the SEE looks intelligent, socially comfortable, and as if she knows what she wants. The ESI seems passive, lacking an interesting personality, and as if she'd crumple in a tense situation.
    If that's an ESI that would be the harmonising subtype variant that has Alpha values since traditionally in socionics it's assumed that assertive and even domineering qualities are exclusively beta and gamma.

    I know that traditional socionics is unable to diagnose an IJ SF that's soft and sweet - they assume those are exclusively either SEI or EII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    If that's an ESI that would be the harmonising subtype variant that has Alpha values since traditionally in socionics it's assumed that assertive and even domineering qualities are exclusively beta and gamma.

    I know that traditional socionics is unable to diagnose an IJ SF that's soft and sweet - they assume those are exclusively either SEI or EII.
    Subtypes, blah. I’m skeptical of their validity/usefulness, honestly. But to clarify, I wouldn’t say ESIs don’t ever seem “sweet”, but “soft” I’m a bit more hesitant on — I suppose that depends on what you think that means. IIRC @ashlesha identifes as ESI; if she doesn’t mind being used as an example, I consider her a nice person, but she’s not someone who comes off in any way passive or as if she wouldn’t stand up for herself if provoked or offended.

    I think to the extent that ESIs ever do seem ‘passive’, they’re either contemplative or unsure what to do. SEIs have one sense of passivity in that they’re bad with pressure or a sort of objective view of the world; EIIs can seem passive in the sense that they’re often dreamlike and bad at Se. Even LIIs give off a certain sense of passivity; ILIs, too, in a different way. But while ESIs can be quiet and “nice”, I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that seems “passive" like this.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 10-02-2019 at 02:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    As opposed to escapism? How is the one better than the other? And isn't "escapism" really a form of hedonism anyway?
    Well, escapism doesn't have to be sensual. It can be as simple as choosing one thought in favour of another (''I'm in my happy place''). I don't think that you would consider reading books to be hedonistic - but certainly escapist, dependent upon the intent of the reader and obviously the genre of the book (if it's fiction or non-fiction).

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    From my perspective, the SEE looks intelligent, socially comfortable, and as if she knows what she wants. The ESI seems passive, lacking an interesting personality, and as if she'd crumple in a tense situation.
    Right, but the ESI allows themselves, dare I say, actively seeks out opportunities to be made vulnerable - which, more than impresses me, is incredibly attractive in the opposite sex especially, given that I wouldn't even know how to be receptive enough to my enviornment as a weak Se user, to allow my surroundings or other sensory stimuli to direct my emotions. Not only that, but have creative output with that very vulnerability that a SEE could never have. Sure, SEEs can be artistic, but its more flashy, loud and superficial dazzlement, without any profundity or poignancy. Maybe their manner would be a burden to you, but who you describe as preferring seems to be masculinised and exploitative. I ultimately prefer someone who's predisposed to vulnerability, as that selfishly (even if they're not vulnerable because of me) causes me to entertain the idea, that they trust me enough to be that way. Again, even if they would be visibly vulnerable with or without my presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    socially comfortable
    Aside from Fi inherently not being a *social* function, but one of expression - assuming that that's a correct premise anyway - I find that the ESI, much like EII, more than compensate for any percieved social deficit in a lack of outgoingness, for their emotional complexity and receptiveness. It's almost like the SEE would just use temporary emotional attachment dependent upon the expediency of the moment - and have no qualms about acting like they never existed if they're no longer opportune to them.
    Last edited by DrNefarioious97; 10-02-2019 at 07:37 PM.

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    I think it also depends on where you are in life. I know that for me the older I get the more I find my duals especially attractive.

    Besides that we should keep in mind that socionics is just one of many tools to interpret social relations. Your dual in socionics can very well be your conflictor in another typology and vice versa. If you try to makes sense of your interactions with other people with socionics only you're going to hit a wall at some point.

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    For me it all comes back to introversion/extroversion.

    For whatever reason throughout your life, you seem to prefer the introversion in another more. Its almost like two passing ships.

    Extroversion Se demands attention, pretty much always and all the time. Some people are just more inclined to fall into more introspective need for space, and usually that means psychological. You can be in the same room as your introverted activity partner and you would never feel put out by them for long as you both return to your respective spaces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    They always pay attention to the world and embrace all that is happening; there is always a lot that is happening to the world and they are always paying attention and embracing numerous opportunities from business, to information - educating themselves on anything interesting them, always learning about life. (HIGH IQ SEE (or S types) are mistaken for intuitives under the prejudice that "S" don't think about ideas). SEE think about the future but from the style of ENTPs with Ne never following any structure embracing new information as it arises in an adhoc way.
    I suppose that my point is that I, as an intuitive, only really value those who have future projections, about absences - what doesn't yet exist, why it doesn't and whether or what intervening circumstances there could be to have that changed. That their objectives relating to the future don't fluctuate for the unforeseen. That with strong enough Ni, they could plan for all contingencies, such that future plans don't alter at the whim of present circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    They always pay attention to the world and embrace all that is happening; there is always a lot that is happening to the world and they are always paying attention and embracing numerous opportunities from business, to information - educating themselves on anything interesting them, always learning about life.


    I don't doubt for a second, that ESFps, similar to, but perhaps to a lesser extent than ENTjs, can achieve a lot of material and financial success - but, I'm sure like most INTps, I don't measure success based upon accural of wealth or attainment of sensual pleasures, but on the accurate prediction of future trends and how to avoid the undesirable ones, executed or not. Obviously they recieve grants and must consider funding in some respect, but *scientists*, who INTps (albeit from MBTI) are dubbed, I don't think consider how rich they may or may not become as a litmus test as it were to how much of a success they are - but merely whether or not as scientists, they're proven to be right.



    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Viktor Gulenko types Blair and Trump as SEE, it makes sense once you stop thinking of SEEs as only idiots, Boris Johnson is another SEE. I believe these are the types of SEEs that defy your stereotype.

    SEEs enjoy theatrics it's part of their social maneuvering that really doesn't make any sense if you are weak in E/Fe, but then again not all theatrics are created equally. You are going to find crappy and masterful displays.






    I always thought that Trump was an ESTj, which is why Baldwin, who's another ESTj, was able to ape him on SNL so well. I consider Blair an ENFj in coinciding with the MBTI attribution of him and Boris maybe the only right one - but he seems like someone without a type. Fumbling, jittering and general dorkiness don't seem to be indicative of SEEs imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I agree. She has a Delta Infantile look.
    How about this: ISFP.jpg

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    ^ still looks EII: NF, infantile, Ne

    ESIs have a more piercing and intense gaze, subtly emotional but serious
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Subtypes, blah. I’m skeptical of their validity/usefulness, honestly. But to clarify, I wouldn’t say ESIs don’t ever seem “sweet”, but “soft” I’m a bit more hesitant on — I suppose that depends on what you think that means. IIRC @ashlesha identifes as ESI; if she doesn’t mind being used as an example, I consider her a nice person, but she’s not someone who comes off in any way passive or as if she wouldn’t stand up for herself if provoked or offended.

    I think to the extent that ESIs ever do seem ‘passive’, they’re either contemplative or unsure what to do. SEIs have one sense of passivity in that they’re bad with pressure or a sort of objective view of the world; EIIs can seem passive in the sense that they’re often dreamlike and bad at Se. Even LIIs give off a certain sense of passivity; ILIs, too, in a different way. But while ESIs can be quiet and “nice”, I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that seems “passive" like this.
    Subtypes will make sense to you the if you try to make socionics more logically consistent and then begin to understand the various ways the theory breaks.

    Nevertheless if after several years, or a decade even, socionics becomes nothing more than a quick shorthand to fit people into the 16 labels whilst conveniently ignoring failures or ignoring all aspects of the theory that undermine neatly placing people into 16 labels - subtype theories will never make sense. Some folks have been here for 14 years and they hold that view.

    But I digress, after sometime (years even) here you'll realise that there are numerous types of socionics and possibly you'll develop your own derivative variant as you try to make sense of the semantics practically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Subtypes will make sense to you the if you try to make socionics more logically consistent and then begin to understand the various ways the theory breaks.

    Nevertheless if after several years, or a decade even, socionics becomes nothing more than a quick shorthand to fit people into the 16 labels whilst conveniently ignoring failures or ignoring all aspects of the theory that undermine neatly placing people into 16 labels - subtype theories will never make sense. Some folks have been here for 14 years and they hold that view.

    But I digress, after sometime (years even) here you'll realise that there are numerous types of socionics and possibly you'll develop your own derivative variant as you try to make sense of the semantics practically.
    Perhaps I should rephrase; to some extent I think subtypes are “a thing”; DCNH is more specifically what I’m skeptical of. ESI-Fi vs ESI-Se for instance I think is a reasonable enough distinction to make; it’s just that at this point I begin to question its real applicability to anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    I suppose that my point is that I, as an intuitive, only really value those who have future projections, about absences - what doesn't yet exist, why it doesn't and whether or what intervening circumstances there could be to have that changed. That their objectives relating to the future don't fluctuate for the unforeseen. That with strong enough Ni, they could plan for all contingencies, such that future plans don't alter at the whim of present circumstances.
    Nah this is MBTI ego-wank material - no offence, I know because I used to indulge in it 8 years ago. Getting back to common sense, quite a large arbitrary number of people do love to be seduced by fantastical ideas and future projections - it's especially common for the young exuding with "teen spirit" (we can do anything the world is our oyster).

    Nevertheless for most people reality hits home when they realise that they are neither clever enough or competent enough to achieve anything, most people have bad plans, bad ideas, or fail to secure sufficient resources for collaboration (time, people, or money).

    Tenacity is a double edged sword - sure it can give people mental resolve to stick it through, but also it's a crutch for someone sticking with bad ideas. BTW it's not an T/Ni function within socionics but Temporal Intuition (T/Ni) adapts to a singular consistent vision towards the future. Rather it's L/Ti Structural Logic which is unwavering and fixated on singular objective despite anything that changes. INTP/ILI have Ti/Structural Logic as their second strongest function - it is the ability they have to defend their vision against all resolve.

    Socionics and MBTI are both Jungian derived but the differences gradually end up making the theories incompatible - despite looking similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    I don't doubt for a second, that ESFps, similar to, but perhaps to a lesser extent than ENTjs, can achieve a lot of material and financial success - but, I'm sure like most INTps, I don't measure success based upon accrual of wealth or attainment of sensual pleasures, but on the accurate prediction of future trends and how to avoid the undesirable ones, executed or not. Obviously they receive grants and must consider funding in some respect, but *scientists*, who INTps (albeit from MBTI) are dubbed, I don't think consider how rich they may or may not become as a litmus test as it were to how much of a success they are - but merely whether or not as scientists, they're proven to be right.
    Within Socionics SEEs are more likely to be wealthier than either LIE or ILI, MBTI ENTJs are usually SLE, LSE, and rarely but possibly SEE. LIEs are Researchers (NTs) they are unlike SFs, especially ESXX, driven by status, resources and material gain F/Se.

    LIEs as Researchers (NTs) are socially introverted, driven by "Ne" - goof ball ideas exploring the world, the "Te" makes them rational and logical they like knowing how and why things work but this is done on I/Ne Intuition of Opportunity.

    Carl Sagan is more socionics LIE


    Quote Originally Posted by DrNefarioious97 View Post
    I always thought that Trump was an ESTj, which is why Baldwin, who's another ESTj, was able to ape him on SNL so well. I consider Blair an ENFj in coinciding with the MBTI attribution of him and Boris maybe the only right one - but he seems like someone without a type. Fumbling, jittering and general dorkiness don't seem to be indicative of SEEs imo.
    If you want to understand EIE socionics ENFJs - look at ******, Robert Mugabe, and Slavoj Zizkek. EIEs are socially introverted with out there ideas, they are intuitive/interpretive on the world. They tend to be ideological and out there, being part of a greater vision - good or bad that's just down to the individual.

    Mao Zedong is another EIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Perhaps I should rephrase; to some extent I think subtypes are “a thing”; DCNH is more specifically what I’m skeptical of. ESI-Fi vs ESI-Se for instance I think is a reasonable enough distinction to make; it’s just that at this point I begin to question its real applicability to anything else.
    It's not Surprising why DCNH doesn't make sense to you - given your present framework which most likely take quadra values and model A as lacking issues.

    Nevertheless if you get to Gulenko's point of query about figuring out how best to interpret valuation and its evidence - it'll become apparent why DCNH exists as a frame work. He's split the perception of people into 4 levels:

    1 Active Level:
    Here people exhibit all the functions of the socion as it is deemed necessary to the active requirement of them. People are logical in circumstances were it makes sense to be logical "L", courteous in circumstances were it makes sense to be such "R"... etc
    2 Functional Level:
    Here people exhibit proficiency/prominence in a function contrary to what they are expected to value. This is recognizing "E" in logical types - eg LII when such types charm and inspire groups.
    3 Subtype Level:
    Habitual aura, a general attitude colouring the person's sociotype - Dominant is associated with enhancing EPF - more leadership attitudes, domineering qualities, at times micromanaging and controlling yet distorted through the underlying base sociotype values; beta and gamma aura is there around dominant subtypes.
    4 Sociotype Level:
    These are the base attitudes, underlying motivations for the sociotype that may not easily be apparent.

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    Illusionary is often quite comfortable cuz you are even more obviously protecting each other's polr and ease of communication can be better/easier than duality. However, from my pov as IEI it still lacks that special 'spark' that I have with SLEs.

    Activity is often lustful and exciting and energizing. Even if it's not romantic or sexual, activity partners always enliven me. It can be exhilarating for both partners hence the name 'activity' lol. More so than dual, which often IRL needs a lot of time to warm up. I've also noticed for duality to really stick, you often have to be around your dual in a variety of different social situations over the period of about three years- before the 'omg we are so compatible! let's get gay married' feeling kicks in. With activity and illusionary, this will happen much quicker usually- like more instantly, or over the period of 2 weeks as opposed to 2-3 years.

    And then there's semi-duality, where the mutual feelings of affection and 'love' is often the strongest out of all the intertypes relations, above even duality itself. With duality I think, these feelings have more natural doubt and need more physical/objective tests to prove how real the dual's feelings are for each other.

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    Is it just me or do people with big eyes get often mistyped as Se dom?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Attraction is largely animalistic and seems to have more to do with upbringing and influences than it does type.
    When I was younger I found myself attracted to women that, in hindsight were socionically incompatible with me. Which makes sense, because that is what socialization is about: the adoption of cultural norms. But the I got a midlife crises, got rid of my socializations and became more 'myself', and started to notice patterns in my attractions, not so much who I felt attracted to, but what types of women had been gravitating towards me all of my life. And that did make sense socionically! Hadn't I been that blind to women of compatible types trying to get my attention, I could have gotten laid a lot more often. And I can says for sure that LSEs and ILIs are in the Top 2 of women having shown interest in me.
    I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that. --- Pippi Longstocking

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