Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Help me sort out alpha/gamma values

  1. #1
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Help me sort out alpha/gamma values

    I'm going over these descriptions of alpha and gamma values to determine on which side of the divide I fall. Comment on this process as you see fit. Or don't.

    Types I'm considering are ILI and LII, with a slight alternative possibility of some delta or beta introvert type.


    Alpha: ILE (ENTp), LII (INTj), ESE (ESFj), SEI(ISFp)


    Alpha is characterized as Judicious, Merry, and Democratic by
    Reinin dichotomies
    .

    Valued elements:

    Ti and Ne


    • Alpha types are inclined to discuss highly theoretical concepts as a source of intellectual stimulation and fun rather than for their practical merits.


    Intellectual stimulation, yes. Fun? Not so much. Practical merits: maybe by a very broad definition of "practical". My patience has major limits but I don't draw the line at practicality most of the time.


    • Alpha types tend to value logically consistent beliefs and ideas, and behavior that is consistent with personal values.


    This sounds very generic to me and something almost anyone intelligent would agree with.


    • Alpha types typically follow through on their ideas in the form of group activity.


    I have a preference for getting stuff done myself and not creating unnecessary dependencies on others. Probably also related to introversion and NT club.


    Fe and Si

    • Alpha types tend to enjoy participating in groups where there is free exchange of positive emotional expression in an atmosphere pleasing to the senses.


    I feel like I agree with this to the extent almost anyone would and not any more specific sense than that. I mean, given the choice would anyone prefer to discuss things with a bunch of screeching harpies in a slime pit.



    • Alpha types are inclined to discuss stories told in detail and according to the sequence in which events happened, rather than "jump to the point" quickly.


    • Alpha types are inclined to show affection for others in the form of small practical services or gifts.


    None of this is really my style.



    • Alpha types tend to feel energized in the positive atmosphere of special events, such as public holidays, parties and special celebrations.


    Hard pass; such occasions often make me feel uneasy.


    Subdued elements


    Se and Fi


    • Alpha types prefer to avoid the discussion of controversial and unpleasant subjects regarding personal relationships while in groups, especially if leading to confrontations.


    I generally avoid the hassle of confrontation, but do so out of expedience and mental restfulness, not fear or more general aversion. I'm good at verbally defending my positions when the situation calls for it and can enjoy it surprisingly much; it's just a trump card I like to keep in hand until the moment of need arrives.



    • Alpha types are inclined to be tolerating of minor past misdeeds by others, giving priority to reconciliation and a convivial atmosphere.


    I'm pretty tolerant and forgiving, but it's not the atmosphere that concerns me. More like my desire not to get entangled in messy everyday affairs. I do keep something of a mental note of a person's character and let it affect how eager I am to interact with them.


    Ni and Te

    • Alpha types are less likely to make investments that require long-term commitment and upkeep. They prefer short-term investments that offer a reliable outcome with minimal involvement.


    Here's the first thing I kind of strongly agree with, but I suppose it could be an IP temperament thing.



    • Alpha types avoid taking direct life advice, preferring to experience and learn for themselves. They perceive people who try to give such advice as pedantic.


    I do dislike getting life advice and will typically discard it. Mostly because it's naive to think you can generalize over something as complex as a human life. This is partly just the NT type arrogance of not simply accepting that someone's ability to generalize can supercede my own.


    Group behavior


    Inclination for comfortable and pleasant group atmosphere, in the emotional, sensorial, and intellectual aspects.

    Not a fan of the "pleasant group atmostphere" thing. Again I don't seek out negativity for the sake of it, but the emphasis seems without merit here. The word "group" is especially dubious.


    An ideal Alpha group situation is the exchange of light-hearted jokes while discussing imaginative ideas, movies, or sometimes sports, all while enjoying pleasant food and drink.


    OK here we get to some stuff that actively irks me. I'm allergic to jokes and have a very testy relation to food and drinks. I'm selective about them on the basis of factors other than mere taste. I tend to regard movies and sports conversations as filler that serves as stepping stones to more interesting topics. They can start to irritate me when dwelled on too long.

    Narrating personal experiences usually takes the form of telling a joke; funny personal experiences are preferred over "serious" ones.
    The exchange of sober concrete details are avoided. If the group is playing a game together, the fun and jokes that go along with it are at least as important as the game itself.

    Please no. I'm serious as fuck.

    They avoid generating "heavy" moments; any dramatic expressions are limited in time, most often in service of a joke. Alphas are also perhaps the most likely types to participate in group use of mind-altering substances.


    I do avoid drama for reasons previously mentioned. Admittedly feigned confrontation is one of the few joke formats I appreciate. I rarely do drugs.


    Alpha discussions tend to go off on tangents, in whatever direction seems most interesting or funny at the moment. Unusual personal observations are common, resulting from the analysis of the idiosyncrasies or inconsistencies of everyday life.

    Not particularly averse to this part.

    If many in the group share the same observations, they are likely to express their agreement emphatically, so as to create a kind of "mental harmony" which enhances the group dynamic. If a new problem is encountered, it is expanded and developed in as many ways as possible, until some kind of satisfactory conclusion is reached.

    This is getting a bit abstract... I don't feel particularly drawn to this. I guess in all groups there is a continual attempt to find common ground, but I don't see the point for this especial emphasis. I generally prefer agreeing to disagree over forcing a concensus in place. Developing ideas to find synthesis can be worthwhile but my patience has limits. I'm generally averse to debates because they tend to go on forever.

    Alphas make no distinction between "insiders" and "outsiders", easily drawing people into a conversation once it has begun — though they tend to just as easily withdraw if the person is not receptive.

    This part is... not terrible. I'll give it a reserved yes.

    Likewise, they prefer to have the same behavior at work as at play; they find formal speech and dress to be pretentious, unnecessarily limiting, and even ridiculous.

    Again I'm fine with this part. Formality is not my thing.

    Alphas dislike the idea that there is something going on "behind the scenes", preferring to keep things (especially personal motivations) as open and straightforward as possible.



    When it comes to personal relations I would say this fits me. As mentioned before, I'm not into drama.


    Romance styles

    Romantic relationships usually evolve from sharing activities and interests for fun in a two-person version of the group behavior description above. Priority is given to keeping the partner happy in the sense of a good mood and amused on a daily basis, with avoidance of direct accusations or unnecessarily harsh criticism; relationships are seen as a source of day-to-day fun and happiness.

    Again not really feeling this emphasis on fun and happiness. I have complex ideas on happiness and aren't inclined to take its existence in a non-meta sense as a given. Meta-happiness is often reached by confronting challenges or even embracing loss.

    Focus on remembering dates of particular significance and celebrating them.

    No.

    Playful interactions are based around light teasing and making the partner laugh; intimate atmospheres are based on generating a comfortable, welcoming, cozy atmosphere.


    Again a very wrong emphasis to say the least.


    Perception of other quadras

    • Beta: Alphas tend to regard Beta types as "cool" and fun, although "fun" with a bit of an edge, and too often inclined to be a bit bossy; in social situations Alphas usually resign the lead to Betas on the basis that Betas "care more." At work, Alphas are inclined to regard Beta types as too single-minded and rigid.


    I don't care much for coolness and fun. Resigning lead to those who "care more" could be accurate, but could be an IP temperament thing, as could be the aversion to single-mindedness and rigidity.




    • Gamma: Alphas tend to regard Gamma types warily, as stand-offish and emotionally cold or even hostile, especially in work situations, as well as inclined to play favorites with those they know better or are attracted to. Alphas tend to see Gamma types as too harsh in their words and generally unimaginative, boring, and too worried about the future, as well as having a mean streak of unforgivingness and vindictiveness.

    I don't mind coldness. Hostility, vindictiveness and playing favorites (without good reason) would be another matter (see aversion to drama).


    • Delta: Alphas tend to regard Delta types as kindly and creative, but a bit too serious in their ideals and principles and too demanding of the same from others.


    As said before I'm not averse to seriousness.

  2. #2
    queentiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 3w4
    Posts
    509
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I mean avoiding drama, viewing confrontation as a "hassle" - likely LII > ILI
    "You're king and you're queen
    You're strong and you're weak
    You're bound but so free
    So come and join me
    And call me Harley
    And we'll make a scene"

    LIE-Ni
    3w4-7w8-8w7 sx/so


  3. #3
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What would a more typical ILI attitude towards confrontation be like in your views?

  4. #4
    queentiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 3w4
    Posts
    509
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well I'd say ILIs would be more likely to take on confrontation and maybe even view it as a good thing (they are Se dual seeking after all). The attitude you have seems more in line with Se PoLR in my opinion.
    "You're king and you're queen
    You're strong and you're weak
    You're bound but so free
    So come and join me
    And call me Harley
    And we'll make a scene"

    LIE-Ni
    3w4-7w8-8w7 sx/so


  5. #5
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Don't get me wrong, there are times when I feel very good about taking on matters of contention. I just don't waste the effort on everyday affairs. I choose my battles strategically.

    I could see it being a Ni thing, but it's entirely possible that you're right and it is that simple. I'm just gonna go through the gamma descriptions too before I decide.

  6. #6
    queentiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 3w4
    Posts
    509
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antimattter View Post
    Don't get me wrong, there are times when I feel very good about taking on matters of contention. I just don't waste the effort on everyday affairs. I choose my battles strategically.

    I could see it being a Ni thing, but it's entirely possible that you're right and it is that simple. I'm just gonna go through the gamma descriptions too before I decide.
    I mean LIIs have 4D Ni soo....
    "You're king and you're queen
    You're strong and you're weak
    You're bound but so free
    So come and join me
    And call me Harley
    And we'll make a scene"

    LIE-Ni
    3w4-7w8-8w7 sx/so


  7. #7
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    That argument goes both ways. According to dimensionality theory it's not possible to tell quasi-identicals apart by their function strengths because they are the same. I don't know if I believe in dimensionality but the premise of that particular claim is intuitively obvious and almost trivial even outside of the theoretical framework: when you look at two introverts from the same club, you're obviously going to see a lot of similarities. Hence why the focus on quadra values is more appropriate and hence why I made this thread.

  8. #8
    queentiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 3w4
    Posts
    509
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antimattter View Post
    According to dimensionality theory it's not possible to tell quasi-identicals apart by their function strengths because they are the same.
    Not true. In terms of dimensions there are still very clear differences between the two 4D functions, the most obvious being the lead is valued whereas the demonstrative isn't. The demonstrative is taken less seriously, viewed as a sort of game and it supports your creative Ne.
    "You're king and you're queen
    You're strong and you're weak
    You're bound but so free
    So come and join me
    And call me Harley
    And we'll make a scene"

    LIE-Ni
    3w4-7w8-8w7 sx/so


  9. #9
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah I said function strengths, values are different matter. We're not disagreeing on anything major here.

  10. #10
    queentiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 3w4
    Posts
    509
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antimattter View Post
    Yeah I said function strengths, values are different matter. We're not disagreeing on anything major here.
    I'm glad, I thought I was going to have to add you to the no hopers list for a second there haha.
    "You're king and you're queen
    You're strong and you're weak
    You're bound but so free
    So come and join me
    And call me Harley
    And we'll make a scene"

    LIE-Ni
    3w4-7w8-8w7 sx/so


  11. #11

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    10,988
    Mentioned
    981 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    to understand your values is much easier by IR effects. people of which types give you higher irrational sympathy as friends
    you may use my IR test and to type people near you IRL. the 2nd is longer, but better way

    ignore Reinin's trait as those are bs
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  12. #12

    Default

    I'm not an experienced typer or forum poster or anything like that, but you seem like you value the Si/Ne valuing parts of Alpha, and value the serious Te/Fi values of Gamma. I think you should consider SLI, and delta quadra in general.

  13. #13
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ValidUsername View Post
    I'm not an experienced typer or forum poster or anything like that, but you seem like you value the Si/Ne valuing parts of Alpha, and value the serious Te/Fi values of Gamma. I think you should consider SLI, and delta quadra in general.


    I've definitely had thoughts along those lines, but I would sooner be an EII with relatively well developed Ti and Te, explained by:
    - male gender roles
    - professional focus
    - autism durrrr

    I HIGHLY doubt I could be a sensory type. Intuition is just about the most constant factor in my personality (speaking of the good and the bad aspects)

    Extrovert types are also out for similar reasons.

    and… tbh I would kinda be inclined to say the same of T... it's really a stretch to diverge from NT club typings...

    Having delta-ish values could likely also be the result of growing up in a delta-centric and predominantly Te valuing family.

  14. #14
    Simo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    As an LII who had experienced the same conflict (LII vs ILI), I will give you my thoughts as food for thought instead of typing you (and who knows you may be neither of those two types ).
    but first you may want to check out WSS quadra descriptions as well: here

    1. I'd say you may want to think of the ignoring function: for LIIs it is Te which means LIIs are good at evaluating actions from Te perspective yet they'd rather explore an interesting idea/possibility (Ne) even if it is not productive or going to generate a good return, as for ILIs whose ignoring function is Ne, even though they perceive different possibilities, they'd rather go with the one that's likely to yield the highest return on investment and ignore the rest.

    2. the approach to Ti (dominant vs demonstrative): LII build structures/systems whereas, ILI critique or find the flaws in structures/systems.

    here are quotes taken from WSS LII's and ILI's profile:

    Central to the LII is their coherent structure of laws and principles through which they formulate an understanding of the world around them. LIIs are motivated by a need to analyse and make sense of their experiences, abstracting from them certain rules or regularities and drawing them into a consistent, theoretical framework. For them, truth is the pinnacle of understanding and such truth can only be reached if everything accepted fits together and makes perfect internal sense. Only then can their structure possibly be correct.
    a system claiming it has everything neatly ordered and understood is a red target that the ILI will likely attempt to dismantle. With an artful command of logical reasoning, the ILI can quickly look for the flaws in a theory and poke it full of holes. After undermining the logical integrity of a theory, the ILI is unlikely to offer a new structure in its place.
    3. Fe dual-seeking vs PoLR: LIIs even though bad at creating a positive emotional atmosphere, they really appreciate it and are bothered by negative atmosphere. whereas ILI with Fe polr don't seem to notice such atmosphere and may make comments that ruin it without being aware. (similar thing can be said about Se dual-seeking vs PoLR)

    That's it for now as I have to leave
    Hope it was beneficial

  15. #15
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I appreciate the attempt to help

    1. I'd say you may want to think of the ignoring function: for LIIs it is Te which means LIIs are good at evaluating actions from Te perspective yet they'd rather explore an interesting idea/possibility (Ne) even if it is not productive or going to generate a good return, as for ILIs whose ignoring function is Ne, even though they perceive different possibilities, they'd rather go with the one that's likely to yield the highest return on investment and ignore the rest.

    again, this doesn't clear things up for me because you're basically saying that ILI and LII are good at almost the same things. values seem to be where the major difference lies...

    about being concerned with "return on investment", I can only see this applying to me if I interpret the phrase in very broad terms, e.g. a time investment in learning socionics theory that leads to the return of knowing oneself better… in the typical business-minded sense I have little appreciation for it.

    2. the approach to Ti (dominant vs demonstrative): LII build structures/systems whereas, ILI critique or find the flaws in structures/systems.

    these seem like complementary and almost mutually implicative (i.e. one required for the other and vice versa) to me. bringing me back to the thesis that LII and ILI have the same strengths and do largely the same things with different values-related goals. at heart I identify more with the critic role, although also with one where the old system is torn down and a new one is erected in its place. If I had to guess how ILI look at this, it's that they reject the system without having much interest in rebuilding it, instead defaulting to something more traditional and time-tested.

    3. Fe dual-seeking vs PoLR: LIIs even though bad at creating a positive emotional atmosphere, they really appreciate it and are bothered by negative atmosphere. whereas ILI with Fe polr don't seem to notice such atmosphere and may make comments that ruin it without being aware. (similar thing can be said about Se dual-seeking vs PoLR)

    tentatively I would say I don't care for atmosphere much, but I do care for a general sense of peace and respect that enables optimal discourse and constructive cooperation. maybe I am hairsplitting by distinguishing those two. or maybe this is Fe vs Fi.

  16. #16
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Gamma: LIE (ENTj), ILI (INTp), SEE (ESFp), ESI (ISFj)

    Gamma is characterized as Decisive, Serious, and Democratic by
    Reinin dichotomies
    .
    Valued elements
    Te and Ni
    Gamma types take a longer-term view regarding efficiency and profitability, giving lower priority to the short term. Likewise, they tend to aim at the broader benefits of decisions, rather than only at those affecting themselves, giving them an inclination for self-sacrifice.

    I'm definitely into long term thinking and broader benefits. The definition of efficiency and profitability that I uphold tends to be broader than the conventional sense, though.

    Gamma types like to talk about where present trends are leading in terms of potentially profitable events and undertakings.

    Again I'm interested in the direction of trends, but profitability sounds too narrow.


    Gamma types tend to give more value to ideas and concepts that are firmly connected to factual information.

    Factuality is definitely a plus, but not something I strictly stay limited to. I just try to be aware of it when I speculate and to make the same clear to others.

    Fi and Se

    Gamma types take a hard-line approach regarding ethical principles and the punishment, even revenge, on those who break them.

    Punishment and revenge are not my style because I don't like to dwell on past matters. I don't get bogged down on sunk costs, neither in business matters nor in personal ones. The important thing is always how to effectively move forward. I have a strong moral compass, but also one that is adaptable, flexible and situationally aware to an extent.

    Gamma types place high value on personal loyalty, once they feel a close relationship has been established.

    I don't very often meet people that seem worth staying loyal to. Loyalty is definitely not something I establish lightly. When I do, the loyalty can carry quite a bit of weight though.


    Gamma types like to discuss personal relationships in a realistic manner and are skeptical that "jerks" can ever become "nice people", for instance.

    Kinda fits me, but sounds generic to me.


    Subdued elements
    Fe and Si
    Gamma types don't tend to form or maintain groups based on fun, emotional interaction, but only take groups seriously that perform some common productive activity or discuss serious topics.

    Sounds fair.

    Gamma types reject the idea that it's best to avoid confrontations so as not to spoil the mood of those present, they prefer directness in settling or at least discussing disagreements.

    I like directness, but there aren't a lot of issues that I get worked up over to the point of raising confrontation. I don't really think of it as a "mood" thing, but I have a general sense that conflict should be a last resort.


    Gamma types have difficulty relating to emotional atmospheres connected to "special dates" such as public holidays.

    Correct.

    Ti and Ne
    Gamma types do not see much point in deeply analyzing ideas that they see as having little practical application or connection to reality.

    There are limits to my patience, but here I am, discussing Socionics of all things. The intellectual masochist in me does get attracted to these fringe ideas that don't easily hold up to factual scrutiny.

    Gamma types are more inclined to speculate and discuss possible developments of present circumstances, or how these came about, than to speculate or analyze alternative scenarios or possibilities.

    Really not sure about this. I generally have a broad interpretation of "possible developments" in this context.

    Group behavior
    Groups made up of primarily Gamma types tend to be small in size; perhaps 6 at most. Laughter and very obvious displays of emotion are subdued, instead, there is a lot of smiling, amusement with ironic and witty remarks or, when serious subjects or not very happy personal experiences are discussed, a serious demeanour. Even such small groups tend to split into smaller ones; perhaps 3 is the ideal "group" size for Gammas.

    I certainly prefer the gist of this over that of the alpha group description.


    Group discussions are focused on exchange of information and ideas on subjects of mutual interest, discussing and planning activities together, or on personal experiences. The latter are usually discussed not with the purpose of making people laugh or to boast one's position but to get an insight into the lessons to be drawn from such experiences.

    Not bad.

    Gammas usually dislike being "drawn" into larger groups where loud exchanges of jokes and quick shifting of one subject to the other are the norm, as in a large dinner table in an informal environment, especially if the group is also somewhat "artificial" as in work colleagues or business partners where personal relationships weren't really spontaneously formed. In such situations, Gammas will tend to focus on the persons sitting immediately near them in order to engage them in more individual conversations or will tend to remain mostly silent, not really participating in the group atmosphere, making the impression of being "introverts" in the everyday meaning of the term.

    Yeah this all sounds very familiar.


    Once a group is formed, it tends to be wary for some time of "newcomers", being neither exclusive nor inclusive on purpose.

    The cautious ambivalence here is actually something I strongly relate to, more so than the corresponding part in alpha which I did also mark as green.

    Conversations often focus on trends regarding material and yet personal issues, such as career prospects and developments, success or failure of financial investments and enterprises, and the future prospects of romantic relationships, as well as the reasons for the failure of past ones. In more light-hearted moments, such talks get a "bawdy" flavor with some slight teasing.

    Some of this sounds a bit too dry. I might hit off a conversation on such mundane topics but only with the hopes of moving on to something more exciting in terms of... life lessons and the like.

    Other subjects tend to focus on internal work politics from the point of view of how it jeopardizes general efficiency, the nonsense of bureaucracy, and how to be better than competitors.

    Same as the above.

    Romance styles
    Gammas usually have little time for "romance" in the "wooing" meaning of the term; relationships tend to develop rather as the meeting of two individuals interested in a relationship and each other. Elements of "courtship" or "romance" are seen as rituals with less meaning than the feelings involved. Relationships, also friendships, usually develop from exchanges of information, ideas, personal experiences of special significance, and mutual help, proceeding to activities together.
    Gamma romantic interactions tend to focus on the longer-term prospects of the relationship in terms of definition, that is, for instance, even if it is to be a temporary relationship, this should be more or less clear, or at least in one's mind, from the beginning. General impatience with flirting for flirting's sake, or for fun; approaches and moves are made with a purpose, which may be altered down the road, nonetheless.

    I'm definitely impatient with rituals and flirting. Just want to move things forward, or quit. Kinda bipolar in that regard. I can't find the middle ground without bouncing between the extremes and this has threatened relationships of mine before.

    Assumption that sexual innuendo and approaches are backed by some sort of emotional attachment. Once a relationship is established as being romantic, interactions tend to focus on physical and somewhat tough interplay and innuendo. Playful power-games, focusing on intensity of interactions and feelings.

    Sounds good. My feeling about such things is generally "what the hell is it worth if you don't mean it". Yet relationships hardly seem worth it if they don't get to that point.

    Perception of other quadras
    Gammas tend to perceive Alpha types as creative, generally well-meaning, and friendly and pleasant people, especially as a group, as a first impression. Later, Gammas tend to see Alphas as lacking ambition in the longer term, overly concerned with sensorial pleasure and comfort, and overly demanding of, and sensitive to, external emotional expression without making much effort to focus on deeper feelings involved.

    Most things on that list do annoy me.

    Gammas tend to regard Beta types as driven, ambitious people with a sense of purpose and who can get things done, usually with very strong views, as in political issues or ways of approaching work, which Gammas tend to see as not backed by sufficient factual confirmation and therefore too ideological. Gammas also may regard Betas as two-faced when bent on achieving a goal, and too concerned with their social status, and that of others, within any given social group.

    Social status... Now here we have a bit of a can of worms. I generally think that status has to be about taking a moral high ground, contributing to an ideal, because in the limited sense of just "having the most fun posessions" I have trouble respecting it. So I guess it would be accurate to say I reject the beta variant of it, but whether what I do respect instead is gamma is up to interpretation... hell it could be delta.

    Wanting factual confirmation and being averse to ideology, otoh, sounds good.


    Gammas tend to perceive Delta types as kindly, well-meaning and creative people, but perhaps too present-focused and lacking ambition with a longer-term perspective, as well as being overly welcoming and forgiving of people whom Gammas may regard as undeserving.

    Again I don't strongly identify with the hypercritical interpersonal aspects of the gamma descriptions, so I'm ambivalent here. I'm also not always super ambitious in the conventional sense. My ambition is often limited by the nagging, recurring question of "ambition towards WHAT?"

  17. #17
    matter begone Antimattter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    TIM
    EII Male (WE EXIST)
    Posts
    24
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Antimattter Today 11:33 AM

    it's not my first preference in any situation to change the world to adapt to me rather than the other way around but that seems the appropriate stance here

    Antimattter Today 11:32 AM

    I guess I keep coming back to this wholistic realization that I'm simply LII but there is so much in socionics that doesn't work well in the context of that typing

    Antimattter Today 11:24 AM

    uncertainty could just as well be N as F, btw. maybe that even works better

    Antimattter Today 11:22 AM

    I suppose what I do is mainly speculation on how the system works, which is more Ne ish. whereas speculation as to how to apply it given a fixed working hypothesis would be more Ni / Te

    Armalite - Report Shout Today 11:19 AM

    maybe I'll be able to suggest something better if I see more of you

    Armalite - Report Shout Today 11:19 AM

    ic ic

    Antimattter Today 11:18 AM

    extrovert typings are out, but thanks

    Antimattter Today 11:17 AM

    and then there's the possibility of this simply being ID block Te and me being a model citizen individuated person, venturing outside my original quadra clique

    Armalite - Report Shout Today 11:17 AM

    ILE was my first impression, but I also don't know you at all besides this exchange

    Antimattter Today 11:09 AM

    but I think my style is to make the certainty explicit and make more implicit reference to uncertainty, so maybe Te with implied Fi values…

    Antimattter Today 11:08 AM

    phrasinggg

    Antimattter Today 11:08 AM

    F is in a sense a gaping hole wanting to be filled by T, but at the same time rejecting the too heavy handed approach of the function with the same i/e aspect

    Antimattter Today 11:06 AM

    in the context of that new post in my thread where I explore being EII, I think what I wrote here has some Fi thrown in... topics of fear, uncertainty, rejection of the certainty of T... I do that kind of thing a lot

    sorta relevant chat conversation. order is from bottom to top.
    You're the Turbo Killer - You're the Turbo Killer - You're the Turbo Killer

  18. #18

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,798
    Mentioned
    268 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I see alpha LII for you in the sense that while alpha quadra as a whole is superficially 'merry' and jovial and tells jokes (and gamma is the opposite - overly serious grimdark motherfuckers), LII is like the black sheep of the alpha family in the sense that is the alpha type most likely to be stern, serious and logical themselves- but also responds very well to other people's Fe. There are subtle idiosyncrasies in your typing style that make me think you are alpha over gamma though (like capitalizing certain words and certain emotional undertones in your post that you are subconsciously, not necessarily consciously aware of).

    I'm not sure about the subtle differences yet between generally valuing Fe yourself vs only tolerating Fe if you are a gamma ILI and your SEE dual is demonstrating you on how to lessen the weakness it impacts, maybe somebody else can explain. I am personally confused by this because a SEE's Fe is often so good it can appear that it's in their ego function. My own Fi as IEI doesn't even really feel this way, though it's very strong- it feels much more 'in the background' than a SEE's demonstrative function lol.

    Since types are based on stereotypes and generalizations anyway no matter how complicated one tries to be with socionics- the 'wholistic realization' is the one that is the most important. I don't think this is a matter of you being 'simply LII' as the ultimate pretty ribbon on your entire identity as a human being or anything lol but yes there is only 16 types and if you fit that one the best over-all you fit that one the best.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •