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    welcome to XVII century enlightenment philosophy.
    human's capacity to be a rational being = god. hence natural law must be accessed now not through religious revelation, but through reason.
    it's not a coincidence that the big figures in enlightenment (e.g. Kant) had a christian-protestant upbringing, it shows.

    what would make up a good modern-day argument?
    maybe your best bet would be to go for the unsolved problems in science as a simple but sometimes effective argument.
    also, it's a fallacy to state that just because something can't be proven = it does not exist.

    In my experience the knowledge of god and the experience of faith is completely devoid of what you can rationally prove through the scientific methods that we have utilized for centuries now.
    It's a model we have adopted. Other models of induction exist, btw.
    Still, I think god cannot be explain through our self-imposed scientificist way, but through a purely subjective experience.
    There's some nice catholic philosophy to read on this. Think Aquinas.
    Now, because of my cultural background I am ignorant on all the big minds on oriental religions, such as Buddhism, shintoisim and other religions. that's another place to look into.

    tl;dr you're looking in the wrong direction for answers. It probably cannot be proved through what we consider logical and scientific.

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    These kind of discussions always develop the same way. Apologies to any replies I've ignored in this thread, but the way I see it, it's pretty useless.

    Ftr, LSI's and ESE's (Richard Dawkins) often have beef with God due to -Ne /+Ni PoLR.

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    For example,

    I haven't come across your argument before... and I'm pretty sure it wasn't inherent within me; which is why I'm asking you questions.

    But according to you, it is... How????

    How do we know when we've perceived something? (My original response/post to you that you didn't address)
    Because everything you come in contact with is just a re-contextualization. You cannot add true novel information into your processing. Every time you see something new, you give it meaning by configuring it in your brain based on what is already inherent within it. You are taking your conscious processing and pulling new information from your unconscious into your conscious awareness. See my thought experiment above... you apparently didn't read it.

    I've used this thought experiment before and will again. A friend brings an object that you've never seen before. It is a completely novel object to you. Yet the moment you view it, you still have a flash bulb thought. At first, you think to yourself "This has curves here, this could be some sort of engine here. These could be nuts, bolts, screws... wings..." Essentially, you are taking what you already know and are applying it to this new object to give it definition. In the future, after examining the object enough using your already inherent rules, you may give it its own distinct category in your mind. You are pretty much already bridging that together from the moment you see it. Essentially everything in your entire life you've ever viewed though has undergone this same examination and categorization. You take what you already know, apply it to the novel object or idea so that you can contextualize the object in your own terms. Everything you see, every person you know... all just manifestations of the self... things that you've contextualized using what is already inherent within from the very beginning of your existence
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    Here is a machine translation on an article I once wrote, although it is not a logical rationalization:

    The Supreme Being

    In his Metaphysica Lambda, the Greek philosopher Aristotle went in search of the Unmoved Mover. The idea here was that everything has a cause, but that there must be something that is not the result of something else, because the chain of cause and effect cannot go back to infinity. There is something that is the cause of everything else, but has no cause itself.

    If the above sounds too abstract to you: it is about the phenomenon that we tend to call 'God' in today's society. In a more anthropological, general and abstract sense, that is.

    Although some philosophers are critical about the concept of the Unmoved Mover, this principle is the starting point for many people to think about God. The question for them is not so much whether there is such a thing as a god, but especially what that god is and how it manifests itself. And that in turn leads to intense discussions, for example between atheists and believers. For example, there are atheists who believe faith in a creating god as unprovable and irrational nonsense. On the other hand, there are believers who find it perfectly logical that this Universe, which appears to be mainly complex in nature (but may not be at all), could never have arisen out of itself, and that something like a creative god (or gods) must have been.

    In the scientific debate, a select group in recent years has advocated the so-called Intelligent Design : the idea that certain characteristics of the universe and organisms are best explained as the work of an intelligent "designer". What that intelligent designer then looks like is briefly left out, but it is clear that it complies with the god principle.

    There is a lot of criticism to be made about the movement that is referred to as ID and its theories, but for me personally there is only one argument to deal with ID: Intelligent Design pretends to solve a problem: the problem that it involves be the Universe that cannot be explained by evolutionary theory or other scientific insights. This Universe would be so complex in nature that there must be an intelligent something like a god. The existence of a watch also presupposes the existence of a watchmaker, and God is that proverbial watchmaker.

    My simple objection is: if I accept the watchmaker's principle, I must also ask myself who the watchmaker's dad and mom are. Then I have to wonder who the parents of that are. And so on and so forth. Intelligent Design does not solve the problem, it creates a new problem! Unless of course you want to claim that God is the cause of all things, but you know for sure that he had no father or mother, let alone grandparents. But what problem does this solve that cannot already be solved by accepting the Universe as an Unmoved Mover? After all, we can reasonably assume that the Universe exists.

    Aristotle already said it: anankè dè stènai : it cannot be otherwise or it must end. Either to the series of causes and effects, or to the endless analysis in our search for God, because the scholars unfortunately do not know what exactly he meant. But both interpretations are relevant to this discussion.

    For me the solution is simple: as far as I can empirically perceive, the Universe itself is the Unmoved Mover. Any attempt to explain the Universe as the result of something that can be interpreted as a god principle does not solve the problem, but only makes it bigger. And attempts to scientifically explain the Universe as a result of something else are as yet only hypothetical theories for which there is no empirical evidence. The result is that at a certain point, due to a lack of information, we still have to make a choice: anankè dè stènai .

    I am fairly happy with the idea that the Universe is the cause of everything that exists but has no cause of its own. Does this mean that I am an atheist? Yes and no: I do not believe that the Universe was created by a creative god, but I do not rule out such a thing as God. According to many people I contradict myself now.

    One of the biggest obstacles to understanding reality is that people are inclined to elevate themselves to the measure of all things. Usually unnoticed and without malicious intentions. Without realizing it, we use ourselves as a measuring tape to measure other things. Mathematically, but above all teleologically , because we mainly want to understand the goal-directedness of everything. So we say that an elephant is large and a mouse is small. We implicitly conclude that God has human traits (such as the tendency for purposeful action) and creative power. We believe that the universe is ancient with its 14 billion years. But compared to the cosmic scale of the Universe or the microscopic scale of molecules and atoms, elephants and mice do not differ that much in size. God does not have to be anything that looks like a person or has creative power. And the Universe is perhaps elegantly simple and not ancient, but very young compared to the age it can reach, according to current insights. Insofar as there is already an autonomous existence of such a thing as time, because in my opinion the Universe does not exist in time and space (as most people implicitly assume), time and space exist in the Universe; the Universe is of a higher order than time and space. Our conclusions say much more about our 'ego-centric' natures than about the topics they should be about.

    There is a lot to say about the neurotic aspects of believing in a god and higher dimensions. Nonetheless, many people believe in a god, in gods, in multiple dimensions, in life after death, etc. If you are more sociologically or anthropologically inclined, you start to wonder what the intention is. It seems to me to go too far to say that believing is something schizotypal when a very large majority of humanity is concerned with it. Is there a way out of this dilemma?

    There is. By considering the divine as something that is a property of the Universe, and not so much something that is equal to it (pantheism) or above or beyond it (theism). If God, like time and space, is of a lower order than the Universe, we can make room for the mysticism that seems to be hidden in existence, without having to get stuck between religion and science, and we take a stand without having to take a stand.

    "Yes and no" I answered to the question of whether I am an atheist. You now know why.
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    Also I think if I were God, I would find planning and orchestrating everything all the time to be boring af. I would automate myself and make some parts of the universe semi-random, and have lots of different channel options going at the same time eventually, and then I'd just let it run on its own. Why would I want to know the ending?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Also I think if I were God, I would find planning and orchestrating everything all the time to be boring af. I would automate myself and make some parts of the universe semi-random, and have lots of different channel options going at the same time eventually, and then I'd just let it run on its own. Why would I want to know the ending?
    Great point that CS Lewis and Chesterton took on. God wants to be surprised. His curse is that he cannot be surprised. He wants to look at something and not see his own reflection in it. But if he tells people to not obey him , and then they disobey, that would be obeying him. It has to be a secret. He wants something that is not him.

    Otherwise a great mind has nothing to do and may as well watch his shadow on the wall all day.

    “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. " -Emerson

    And that Foo Fighters song:

    The only thing I'll ever ask of you
    You got to promise not to stop when I say when

    <span jsname="YS01Ge" style="font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif;">
    "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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    God is the Universe. Since the Universe has order, Cartesian dualism is false, and it's possible (though not a given) to create and find objective meaning outside in the world, never mind that mind and personality must be part of the grand order of things in order to reject dualism and thoughts cannot be epiphenomenal in an non-dualistic universe, it makes much more sense to say there is a God than to say there is no God based on the definition of a god despite the common logical argument that pantheism is atheism.

    It's also possible to be a god. Some organisms don't die, though all people that we know of have died as far as anyone knows. Bio-electro-chemical processes sustaining life of an organism are interesting and complicated and potentially reversible and capable of being prolonged indefinitely. I don't believe such processes have been transferred to some sort of "spirit" floating around in any case ever simply because Heaven is for dweebs but I wouldn't completely rule out such a phenomenon. Throwing lightning bolts, flying, turning invisible, reading minds, etc. is definitely possible but usually not cost effective once you take the actual means of doing "magic" things like that into account. People said lightning is a god, money is a god, etc. so being one with that is the same. So the Universe is God and if you channel it you can be a god, and if you go against it (via deception) you can go against God and go to Hell.
    Last edited by Metamorph; 09-09-2019 at 06:44 AM.

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    All non-pantheist gods are stupid because they amount to making a finite being infinite. For example, let's say there's an invisible guy walking around smiting people and making laws so when people die they can go to Heaven if they follow them or Hell if they don't. How does he turn invisible? How does he smite people? Where are Heaven and Hell? What happens when you die? Once you start looking at those questions, you could go kill God or run out of Hell or something like people actually did in various myths. On the other hand atheism still takes a static view of humanity and just removes Smiteman from the picture and gives you chaos and nothingness. Chaos and nothingness exist, but humanity has been to the moon and we've raised the recently-dead so I don't buy that people are fundamentally without agency in a doomed and meaningless universe or there's some fixed "human condition" similar to how people now live. We're not fated to happiness and rainbows if we sit on our buttocks either, but there is real and even potentially cosmic agency for people in non-Cartesian reality. I think you need a relationship with the Universe because that's the actual nature of things.

    If these are difficult to read, then, I sure hope these posts are nearly impossible to follow. I took so many pains for knowledge in an anti-elitist fascist country and it wasn't for nothing.

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    I am Christian which makes me Theistic, but I am not religious in the worldly sense. I believe God's existence is logically provable and I also believe the rules that he wants us to follow are also a priori, along with the fundamental reasons for these rules.

    I think I sketch of God's existence would look something like Descartes Ontological Argument:

    1. Our idea of God is an all perfect being. In other words, a being that has perfection in "all areas."
    2. Existence is a perfection.
    3. Therefore God must exist.

    Common Criticisms of this sketch
    1. Can't I assign the property of perfection to other things like unicorns and "deduce them into existence."
    Rebuttal: Well we can't picture a perfect being with our mind, we can only make generalizations. For a spaghetti monster, we can picture what a spaghetti monster would look like making it already flawed. Now, let's not get this confused with Jesus who I believe came as God within a human body. The human body in of itself wasn't God, but the being using it was. Why can't God use a spaghetti monster or a unicorn? I mean I guess hypothetically God could do that, but those things (the spaghetti monster, unicorn, etc.) in of themselves wouldn't be God.
    2. Isn't the idea of perfection kinda vague? Well not really. Descartes definition for perfection in of itself is a positive trait. For example, you wouldn't say weakness is a perfection, as weakness is merely the absence of power. A healthy food for thought would be to consider if we did consider weakness to be a perfection and figure out why this doesn't make sense.

    For a more rigorous proof, I invite you to check out Godel's Ontological Argument if you know modal logic.

    As for being Christian, I think this is at least a posteriori knowledge. There are many historical documents of Jesus's existence and his persecution. Along with his injuries, and sitings of him after he sustained these injuries (which would not be humanly possible based on the reported injuries).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    I am Christian which makes me Theistic, but I am not religious in the worldly sense. I believe God's existence is logically provable and I also believe the rules that he wants us to follow are also a priori, along with the fundamental reasons for these rules.

    I think I sketch of God's existence would look something like Descartes Ontological Argument:

    1. Our idea of God is an all perfect being. In other words, a being that has perfection in "all areas."
    2. Existence is a perfection.
    3. Therefore God must exist.

    Common Criticisms of this sketch
    1. Can't I assign the property of perfection to other things like unicorns and "deduce them into existence."
    Rebuttal: Well we can't picture a perfect being with our mind, we can only make generalizations. For a spaghetti monster, we can picture what a spaghetti monster would look like making it already flawed. Now, let's not get this confused with Jesus who I believe came as God within a human body. The human body in of itself wasn't God, but the being using it was. Why can't God use a spaghetti monster or a unicorn? I mean I guess hypothetically God could do that, but those things (the spaghetti monster, unicorn, etc.) in of themselves wouldn't be God.
    2. Isn't the idea of perfection kinda vague? Well not really. Descartes definition for perfection in of itself is a positive trait. For example, you wouldn't say weakness is a perfection, as weakness is merely the absence of power. A healthy food for thought would be to consider if we did consider weakness to be a perfection and figure out why this doesn't make sense.

    For a more rigorous proof, I invite you to check out Godel's Ontological Argument if you know modal logic.

    As for being Christian, I think this is at least a posteriori knowledge. There are many historical documents of Jesus's existence and his persecution. Along with his injuries, and sitings of him after he sustained these injuries (which would not be humanly possible based on the reported injuries).
    The problem with such arguments is that they confuse an Idea with a Thing that exists in reality. Also, "Existence is a perfection" is an aesthetic view (a matter of personal taste), not a necessary attribute of a thing that exists.

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    That's such a bad argument by my standards. It assumes Cartesian dualism and it assumes that traits are inherently positive or negative a priori. The absence thing is such an awful argument because I can say goodness is the absence of badness. For example, I had some gingko leaves that went bad (don't store gingko leaves in a jar, they don't dry out and will grow mold.) When they had no mold, they were good, but then they gained mold and went bad. Is God a foul being covered in mold?

    As to Cartesian dualism, if you believe Jesus was God, then Jesus was partially his body. No body, no Jesus, so using Occam's razor Jesus's body was part of Jesus. I'm not going to say all of Jesus because obviously God extends beyond that in Christian texts and I think all people extend beyond their fleshly bodies even without having to argue about Jesus or religion.

    I also don't find the idea of something being at least partially visible and being flawed convincing. So, if I have a blank piece of paper, that's the perfect work of art, but if I become the next da Vinci toiling for years, I'm actually the worst artist? Let's all go blind then so we can see no evil. Maybe Hell just means eternal existence and Heaven is where we don't exist, like Christian God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    That's such a bad argument by my standards. It assumes Cartesian dualism and it assumes that traits are inherently positive or negative a priori. The absence thing is such an awful argument because I can say goodness is the absence of badness. For example, I had some gingko leaves that went bad (don't store gingko leaves in a jar, they don't dry out and will grow mold.) When they had no mold, they were good, but then they gained mold and went bad. Is God a foul being covered in mold?

    As to Cartesian dualism, if you believe Jesus was God, then Jesus was partially his body. No body, no Jesus, so using Occam's razor Jesus's body was part of Jesus. I'm not going to say all of Jesus because obviously God extends beyond that in Christian texts and I think all people extend beyond their fleshly bodies even without having to argue about Jesus or religion.

    I also don't find the idea of something being at least partially visible and being flawed convincing. So, if I have a blank piece of paper, that's the perfect work of art, but if I become the next da Vinci toiling for years, I'm actually the worst artist? Let's all go blind then so we can see no evil. Maybe Hell just means eternal existence and Heaven is where we don't exist, like Christian God.
    Hmm your doubt for the validity of my argument based on the reasons you have put forward suggests a sense of impracticality within yourself. I believe unintuitive philosophical arguments may sound witty at first, but prove have very little application. Why do I say this? Let's go to the thought bubble:

    A man shows up and he says that there will be a huge battle in your homeland. He then asks you if you want to be bestowed enough power to protect you and your love ones at no cost at all to you. He also says without this power, many of your love ones will die. Assuming that you believe the man's offer, would you take the power? Most people would say yes. This is a sign of a priori assessment of power as a positive trait to have. Though I am not sure if you are going to be convinced by signs. Consider it valid posteriori knowledge.

    Now, I understand the point that you're making with regard to the the time contingency of the quality of perfection. But you fail to understand that timelessness is a property that can be assigned to an object or property. In fact, most people fail to understand is that the cardinality of the set of properties that can assigned to an object is at least similar to that of a countable set. Now what if we added continuity to our properties (i.e X is Y times more intelligent than Z) then the cardinality would be that of the real numbers. If we were to do that, it would be very hard to contest Descartes's argument. So in regards to your gingko leaves, the object's properties are not timeless, so this will affect the quality of the leaf. This is why we alter the definition of good every time we jump from object to object especially when we take time into account. However, to be a perfect being, you must have good traits in all areas (this is insight into Godel's ontological argument) all the time. I don't know what you think of Kant, but he also thought that you couldn't ever assess temporal objects if you did not have some notion of space and time.

    Hmm... As for your body argument. I am not completely sure what your getting at. Is a puppet a part of his master? Would a proxy be considered a part of the entity they are standing in for? For example, Athleticism is a property you assign to my body, not myself.

    Maybe read into Godel, you might be more satisfied with his rigor.

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    I've read Gödel long ago.

    Who's making the deal? If it's the Devil or a genie, we know how that goes. You gain the power, but you kill yourself with it by mistake since it can't be controlled, or it costs your family instead of you, or the government turns you into their pawn. I'd be incredibly suspicious of any mysterious person promising me a power. Anyways, why would I only take enough power to protect my family? Am I some sort of prepper now? It might be better to die than lose so much status, nights at concerts, days at galleries, cheap import beer, encyclopedias' worth of knowledge of sacred Nature, a life's story, arcing course of purpose. I'd probably try to kill him and take whatever he's hiding and stop the war, or win it at risk to myself for the future of my homeland and civilization. And if I can't take it, good riddance to one of the agents of destruction! And if I can't kill him, let me inspire all the land with the real power, Truth! Anyone who can give you such a power "cost-free" is one of the causes of your problems and doing a bait-and-switch and you know it.

    Many properties of a ginkgo leaf are effectively timeless. A ginkgo leaf comes from a ginkgo tree, and this is an inherent and not contingent property of them. Even after I destroyed them, their origins are still intact. The fact that a ginkgo leaf has two sections and not one is not a contingent property. The fact that molds grow in damp and dark places is not a contingent property. A contingent property is always contingent on something.

    I assign athleticism to people all the time. People who play sports and exercise are called athletic and people who participate in competitions like football matches and events like marathons are called athletes. I would call an athlete's body athletic rather than vice versa, since the same type of body could be achieved through, say, physical labor.

    Good is relative. Would a career as the perfect musician be ruined by having first been the perfect waiter? Oh wait, nothing is perfect in any way at all, except God, who does not exist. Let's destroy everything in the name of unio mystica.

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    You can’t logically rationalize Satan, the master of temptation and disguise, and you can’t scientifically prove “God”. Therefore, I believe they’re both evil and working together. Burn your local church today!
    ・゚*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:・゚

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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh meat View Post
    You can’t logically rationalize Satan, the master of temptation and disguise, and you can’t scientifically prove “God”. Therefore, I believe they’re both evil and working together. Burn your local church today!
    Satan is eminently rationalizeable, just start trying to out hipster a real hipster. Pathetic yes, but so is Satan. Now, by the same token, try to out priest a priest. You'll sadly be able to do that with quite a few of them but once you finally come across a real one you'll get what I'm getting at.

    You could also shock me right here and now if you pass a witch test. I have already sung false praises to Satan so as to prove my good faith to the fallen, can you sing false praises to Christ in turn while being as blatantly insincere as I was in my recorded blasphemy? Can ye even in jest say the words? I bet not. Prove me wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Satan is eminently rationalizeable, just start trying to out hipster a real hipster. Pathetic yes, but so is Satan. Now, by the same token, try to out priest a priest. You'll sadly be able to do that with quite a few of them but once you finally come across a real one you'll get what I'm getting at.

    You could also shock me right here and now if you pass a witch test. I have already sung false praises to Satan so as to prove my good faith to the fallen, can you sing false praises to Christ in turn while being as blatantly insincere as I was in my recorded blasphemy? Can ye even in jest say the words? I bet not. Prove me wrong.
    “The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
    An evil soul producing holy witness
    Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
    A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
    O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”

    ― William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

    Asking people to pass a "witch test" sounds like you learned it from an anime or some fantasy novel and not actual information based on history and the witch trials. You do realize that even a "possessed" person or satan himself would pass your "witch test" easily. I feel like you make a mockery of it all doing this. I may not consider myself a Christian anymore for my own reasons but I find this pretty offensive when you asked people to do this. Witch burnings were no joke. So many innocents killed in the name of religion. Many of them probably just for using herbs to help heal or something else very benign. Others because someone wanted their property and saw it as an easy way to get and then we have the ergot poisoning, schizophrenia and other mental illnesses.

    I also find it strange that you would blaspheme as a true believer. When I was one I would have never praised satan even as a joke and definitely not in arrogance in an attempt to get someone to praise god then to blaspheme him after. Something does not make sense about all this.


    2. Prayer Test
    Medieval wisdom held that witches were incapable of speaking scripture aloud, so accused sorcerers were made to recite selections from the Bible—usually the Lord’s Prayer—without making mistakes or omissions. While it may have simply been a sign that the suspected witch was illiterate or nervous, any errors were viewed as proof that the speaker was in league with the devil. This twisted test of public speaking ability was commonly used as hard evidence in witch trials. In 1712, it was applied in the case Jane Wenham, an accused witch who supposedly struggled to speak the words “forgive us our trespasses” and “lead us not into temptation” during her interrogation. Still, even a successful prayer test didn’t guarantee an acquittal. During the Salem Witch Trials, the accused sorcerer George Burroughs flawlessly recited the prayer from the gallows just before his execution. The performance was dismissed as a devil’s trick, and the hanging proceeded as planned.

    https://www.history.com/news/7-bizar...ch-trial-tests

    Is this what Catholicism is like now? Has it reverted to superstition and witch tests? None of the Catholics I know would ask such a thing of anyone. They also wouldn't praise satan to make a point.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Still missing the essential point @Aylen. Can you do it? If it's as easy as you say and with my allowance of blasphemy to boot than why not just do as I ask? It's just a few words typed out and posted here after all. Unlike most others who think as I do I will not post your confession all over social media as I have no presence there. The Shakespeare quote is actually quite fitting too. See, the "Death Cultists" (as I like to refer to them as) assume Christian morality to be true and then seek to warp and twist it to get "Christians" to do or admit to essentially anti-Christian falsehoods and actions. That they do so speaks volumes about how shallow their faith really is. Fucking "So" instinct...

    Plus let's get down to brass tacks. You ain't gonna get converts by opening with "All your gods and traditions are false, shit, and offensive to the one true God whom I just so happen to represent. Repent now or he's gonna kill you all and torture you for all eternity." You instead open with how they're getting it right in whatever way they are and then leading them from there. All religions have a "part" of the truth, but only Christianity has the full, complete, and unabridged version of it.

    As for that prayer test you mentioned. If honestly applied by a supportive and caring inquisitor than it would have worked out well. Sadly, people are people, and if they can use a thing like a "witch hunt" to their personal and political advantage they will do so with gusto 99 times out of 100. I mentioned it in another post in another thread but the legend of "Tamamo no Mae" is the prime example of what "ought" to have been in my eyes. She recited the words and performed the "holy" ritual perfectly and flawlessly. So much so in fact that she didn't even notice that her true nature was being revealed as she did so. As the ritual proceeded the truth was made manifest as she suddenly started sprouting her fox tails. Once all nine of them were manifested, well, not even the most hardcore skeptic could deny the truth. That's when they sent out kill teams to hunt her down. Because even with flawless recitation and performance, a nine-tailed fox is a nine-tailed fox just as a witch is a witch. The logic was sound all around IMO.

    If only we westerners had a similar myth I pray I am made aware of one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Still missing the essential point @Aylen. Can you do it? If it's as easy as you say and with my allowance of blasphemy to boot than why not just do as I ask? It's just a few words typed out and posted here after all. Unlike most others who think as I do I will not post your confession all over social media as I have no presence there. The Shakespeare quote is actually quite fitting too. See, the "Death Cultists" (as I like to refer to them as) assume Christian morality to be true and then seek to warp and twist it to get "Christians" to do or admit to essentially anti-Christian falsehoods and actions. That they do so speaks volumes about how shallow their faith really is. Fucking "So" instinct...

    Plus let's get down to brass tacks. You ain't gonna get converts by opening with "All your gods and traditions are false, shit, and offensive to the one true God whom I just so happen to represent. Repent now or he's gonna kill you all and torture you for all eternity." You instead open with how they're getting it right in whatever way they are and then leading them from there. All religions have a "part" of the truth, but only Christianity has the full, complete, and unabridged version of it.

    As for that prayer test you mentioned. If honestly applied by a supportive and caring inquisitor than it would have worked out well. Sadly, people are people, and if they can use a thing like a "witch hunt" to their personal and political advantage they will do so with gusto 99 times out of 100. I mentioned it in another post in another thread but the legend of "Tamamo no Mae" is the prime example of what "ought" to have been in my eyes. She recited the words and performed the "holy" ritual perfectly and flawlessly. So much so in fact that she didn't even notice that her true nature was being revealed as she did so. As the ritual proceeded the truth was made manifest as she suddenly started sprouting her fox tails. Once all nine of them were manifested, well, not even the most hardcore skeptic could deny the truth. That's when they sent out kill teams to hunt her down. Because even with flawless recitation and performance, a nine-tailed fox is a nine-tailed fox just as a witch is a witch. The logic was sound all around IMO.

    If only we westerners had a similar myth I pray I am made aware of one day.


    I was probably saying those words, in fluent Greek, before you were born. I have nothing to prove to you. I have freely admitted to being a witchy woman. if I say any words it is because they are mine and come from my heart, not yours.

    I have a "source of all things" within me. I am not defining the energy beyond that right now. I am not linking it to any specific religion. You do not know what my relationship to source is.

    I was you once, different denomination, same tactics. I proselytized with awkward fervor (and little knowledge) out of fear for my family and friends, when I joined a "born again" church. They finally got sick of it and an ILI talked some sense to me. I finally snapped out of it. It was like being under their spell but when it was broken I no longer feared for anyone's eternal soul.

    There are many Christians that believe Catholics, Orthodox Christians and many other religions are full of pagans and/or idolaters. In their eyes you, personally, are heading straight to hell no matter what you say or do. This is the main argument used to justify it. I even chose a Catholic friendly translation.

    "Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2 He came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, ‘Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God.’ 3 Jesus answered him, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.’[b] 4 Nicodemus said to him, ‘How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?’ 5 Jesus answered, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, “You[d] must be born from above.”[e] 8 The wind[f] blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.’"

    Beautiful words aren't they? Very nebulous and highly open to interpretation. Yet they damn most of the world to hell according to the so called "born again" that call themselves Christians too. If god has all these human like traits and failings he might find the "born again" Christians the most obnoxious. I know since I was one for awhile. They try to mask their hatefulness differently than other religions. "I love you but you're going to hell you idolaters." I am happy to be free of that kind of influence. It was one of the most insidious forms I have experienced since they make you feel both special and corrupt. Only their way can save. There is no other path to god for them so your water baptism means nothing in their eyes. Most Catholics I have talked to do not believe you need to be baptized in the same way they do. No matter who has ultimate truth I am covered under 4 types of baptisms now.

    I think maybe if you were serious you would approach someone in pm and not with these theatrics. If someone is open to what you have to say maybe then they will hear you out. You are not selling your religion very well when you also talk about zombie Apocalypse as if it were going to happen. You don't think the second coming will be Jesus zombie edition do you? I really hope not. :/

    Also, again with you trying to get people to blaspheme. What is up with that?
    Last edited by Aylen; 10-27-2019 at 12:23 AM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Repent now or he's gonna kill you all and torture you for all eternity.
    You must be amazing to have at parties, I would invite you for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh meat View Post
    You can’t logically rationalize Satan, the master of temptation and disguise, and you can’t scientifically prove “God”. Therefore, I believe they’re both evil and working together. Burn your local church today!
    You've seen through the demiurge.
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    it's not about "rationalizing god" or making sense of what god is by analyzing test tubes in a lab.

    it's about "rationalizing if existence of god is possible/reasonable", and if there is purpose to why we're all here.

    and to take it a step further. it's more about being open to the possibility vs trying to rationalize it.

    we're not that smart lol
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 09-18-2019 at 01:34 PM.

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    It is very interesting how much we have fallen in love rationalizing everything without knowing if our activities will produce results in all areas of reality. Maybe there is God complex in ourselves that we have to actively suppress. Always found it wierd when people start discussing God’s existence as if it is “concretely” provable. I find it wierder when people say God’s non existence is “concretely” provable due to how flawed of a bet that is.

    I gave you a test and you failed miserably. If you truly read Godel, you would have known of his incompleteness theorem, which states that there unprovable truths in mathematical logic. Sticking with a concrete conclusion on the topic of God’s existence, it should be known that you have completed a leap of faith, not of reason.

    What will the they do when curtain falls on their irrational conclusions? “God, you did not give me enough hints”, “How can sentence me for being bad when I can’t trust concept of morality”, “God, made me too flawed to deduce your existence.” God says “I have given you all that is required and more.” Then they are sentenced.

    Some might say even if this were to happen, they would be happy that they lead life of good philisophical thought and investigation. This mimics the words of failed gamblers who believe they know the trick to the system until they realize the system will not yield to their inferior abilities.

    For your sakes, consider if range of possibilities if you’re wrong. You can’t argue with the “I am.” See where your best bets lie and try to take the correct leap of faith.

    This is my final statement on this thread. Thanks for listening even if it appears as foolishness.
    Last edited by Investigator; 09-18-2019 at 10:54 AM.

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    Any attempt to rationalize either the nature or the existence of God immediately contradicts an important foundation of religious belief: conjuring up evidence for God's existence makes the notion of "faith" entirely morally vacuous and pointless.

    Religion is more likely poetry than science, at any rate. If there were evidence for this supreme consciousness called "God", such that it was something reified, that you could grasp either physically or mentally, then that creature wouldn't be divine.
    Last edited by xerx; 09-18-2019 at 06:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    It is very interesting how much we have fallen in love rationalizing everything without knowing if our activities will produce results in all areas of reality. Maybe there is God complex in ourselves that we have to actively suppress. Always found it wierd when people start discussing God’s existence as if it is “concretely” provable. I find it wierder when people say God’s non existence is “concretely” provable due to how flawed of a bet that is.

    I gave you a test and you failed miserably. If you truly read Godel, you would have known of his incompleteness theorem, which states that there unprovable truths in mathematical logic. Sticking with a concrete conclusion on the topic of God’s existence, it should be known that you have completed a leap of faith, not of reason.

    What will the they do when curtain falls on their irrational conclusions? “God, you did not give me enough hints”, “How can sentence me for being bad when I can’t trust concept of morality”, “God, made me too flawed to deduce your existence.” God says “I have given you all that is required and more.” Then they are sentenced.

    Some might say even if this were to happen, they would be happy that they lead life of good philisophical thought and investigation. This mimics the words of failed gamblers who believe they know the trick to the system until they realize the system will not yield to their inferior abilities.

    For your sakes, consider if range of possibilities if you’re wrong. You can’t argue with the “I am.” See where your best bets lie and try to take the correct leap of faith.

    This is my final statement on this thread. Thanks for listening even if it appears as foolishness.

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    If you believe that "God" is an observable feature of the universe, perhaps even considering "God" to be equivalent to the universe..."the whole", then I think belief in such a god is logically rational. But I would consider that unsatisfactory, as it is just playing with words (attributing to "God" what is already known by another name).

    If you believe that "God" is eternal and has no creator - why is this not a possibility with the universe (or multiverse if you prefer, although that ultimately amounts to the same thing)? In either case, something being eternal is not something that be definitively proved.

    It is nonsensical to say that the universe could have turned out differently with the same laws of nature. If the universe had turned out differently, than the laws of nature would have been different. It is also nonsensical to say that the universe has been created a particular way as opposed to being "random". Any isolated system can be defined absolutely, but it is not possible for an observer inside the system to do so. If the universe is an open system, then how could you determine if it is possible to create Something from Nothing?

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    I think the rationalization of God says more about a person than a person's rationalizations say about God. It seems people characterize, relate to, and justify the existence of god to serve their own projections of however they need god to be/act/judge.

    Need for relationship - relief from the anxiety of alienation. An orientation towards the ultimate, "as if" a form of interpersonal, embodied, or ecological relationship. Partner, womb, provider.
    Need for order - relief from the anxiety of chaos and the prospect of the impossibility of sense-making. Staking the claim that it's all intelligible.
    Need for value - relief from the anxiety that one's worldview is constructed around incidental or meaningless patterns. Staking the claim that existence is well-made and hence its manifestations are worthy of investigation and value.
    Need for direction - relief from the anxiety of being accountable with no guidance. "Leaving it in God's hands" "It's all according to God's plan"
    Need for expected returns - relief from the anxiety that the fruits of our conduct in this life are ultimately arbitrary. Good/Merit/Effort/Kindness will go unrewarded. Evil/Mediocrity/Apathy/Indifference will go unpunished. No one is watching, listening, or keeping track. The responsive god/universe.
    Need for meaning & motivation - relief from the anxiety that nothing is significant. That nothing lasts or makes a difference. Nothing is ultimately worthwhile or fulfilling. Ecclesiastes.
    Need for the new unknown - relief from the anxiety that one is treading already discovered territory and possibilities exhausted by materialism. Stagnation in dead ends.


    Edit: I forgot to include urges to identify with hierarchy, to serve, to worship/devotion, to annihilate ego consciousness and merge with "The All", to understand/reach enlightenment. etc etc. All these different orientations and urges generate different perspectives of the nature of God and different rationalizations for whether or not to believe.
    Last edited by inaLim; 10-28-2019 at 01:16 PM.

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    lol

    1) IEI's and SLE's have psychopathic tendencies and fall into Situational Ethics very easily. "If no one saw it then I don't feel guilty for it." Once the light turns off and there is no Natural Law to judge all behavior then there is nothing to produce conviction for the words they speak.
    Same can be said of SEE and ILI. You must have missed the memo.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    lol
    Same can be said of SEE and ILI. You must have missed the memo.
    Recall that the Superior Parietal area takes over from the Superior Temporal whenever actual examples are replaced by abstract variables such as A, B, or C. I'm suggesting here that Circuits of Thought in a Universal Mind subject to Mental Cause-and-Effect is the proper spatial context for moral reasoning over human beings
    You must have taken it personally to attempt an equivocation. That's exactly the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchback176 View Post
    You must have taken it personally to attempt an equivocation. That's exactly the problem.
    Just stating the obvious.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    To be clear, End. There is an original manuscript from 2006 that drew these conclusions. Consider yourself warned about them.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    I think it's strange to say that people cannot know God. There are people who have had strong inner revelations and callings. If you have an experience of an inner ultimate spiritual authority that will change the course of your life, then who are we to say that this wasn't God?

    Of course some will always say that it was just imagination. But if this "imagination" had that strong impact on you, labelling it like that is not gonna change the basic fact of the experience.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 10-26-2019 at 06:32 PM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post

    Of course some will always say that it was just imagination. But if this "imagination" had that strong impact on you, labelling it like that is not gonna change the basic fact of the experience.
    This was nicely explored in the movie "Contact", where the protagonist, a firm atheist, went on a Journey into outer space, yet when she returned home could not prove she went anywhere. Her rationality broke down and it was shown that it didn't matter or not if she had in fact went anywhere, it was that she was given such a powerful personal experience of her own revelation, that proving it scientifically was now beyond necessity anymore.





    This character is ENTj btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I think it's strange to say that people cannot know God. There are people who have had strong inner revelations and callings. If you have an experience of an inner ultimate spiritual authority that will change the course of your life, then who are we to say that this wasn't God?
    ...Who are we to say that it was God? I think saying that it was in fact God, and saying that you believe in God are two different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Of course some will always say that it was just imagination. But if this "imagination" had that strong impact on you, labelling it like that is not gonna change the basic fact of the experience.
    The strength of a conviction does not necessarily make it more true.

    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    This was nicely explored in the movie "Contact", where the protagonist, a firm atheist, went on a Journey into outer space, yet when she returned home could not prove she went anywhere. Her rationality broke down and it was shown that it didn't matter or not if she had in fact went anywhere, it was that she was given such a powerful personal experience of her own revelation, that proving it scientifically was now beyond necessity anymore.
    Kind of funny how a moment ago were saying that we should rely on "data", now you're saying that we should rely on "experience".

    I wouldn't say her "rationality broke down", that's actually kind of a disturbing way to put it. It was more that she had a strong belief or a faith in aliens existing, but she couldn't "prove" it. And it's this faith that drives her.

    I think that's kind of the point of emotions. It doesn't really have any kind of rationale for it existing, but it exists for the sole purpose of driving you into an action.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    ...Who are we to say that it was God? I think saying that it was in fact God, and saying that you believe in God are two different things.
    I'm just saying that there are inner experiences that match what one can call God. Belief has nothing to do with it.

    The strength of a conviction does not necessarily make it more true.
    It's not a conviction. You didn't understand my previous post. You can make a loose comparison to falling in love. It's also not a conviction and needs no proof. It's an inner power that sort of holds you in its grip.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post

    I was probably saying those words, in fluent Greek, before you were born. I have nothing to prove to you. I have freely admitted to being a witchy woman. if I say any words it is because they are mine and come from my heart, not yours.

    I have a "source of all things" within me. I am not defining the energy beyond that right now. I am not linking it to any specific religion. You do not know what my relationship to source is.


    I just got hit with flashbacks to The Thunder Perfect Mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post


    I just got hit with flashbacks to The Thunder Perfect Mind.
    Love that site. I have read it before. <3 I have a copy of the Nag Hammadhi Library but it is kind of thick and heavy so I like to read online. I found it much more interesting to read than the bible. You might find this kind of in synch. I love this poem and have posted on the forum before.


    The Return of Lilith

    Author: Joumana Haddad
    Translated by: Henry Matthews

    Wildcats shall meet with hyenas;
    goat-demons shall call to each other.
    There too Lilith shall repose,
    and find a place to rest.
    Isaiah 34:14

    I am Lilith, returned from her exile.

    I am Lilith, returned from the prison of white oblivion, lioness of the master and goddess of the twin moons. I gather in a cup what cannot be gathered, and I drink it, for I am the priestess and the temple. I leave no drop for no one, lest they think I have had enough. I copulate and multiply by myself to make a people from my own, and then kill my lovers to make way for those who did not know me.

    I am Lilith, the forest woman. I did not know a hopeful wait but I have known lions and true beasts. I impregnate all parts in me to weave the tale; I gather voices in my womb to complete the number of slaves. I eat my body so I am not accused of hunger and I drink my water so I am not thirsty. My tresses are long for the winter and my bags have no ceiling. Nothing quenches me and nothing fills me, and I return to be the lioness of the lost on earth.

    Long are my tresses
    Far
    And long
    Like a smile fading away in the rain
    Slumber after pleasure reached.
    My shivers are scars of shadows sometimes
    And gleams of the blade, at all times.

    I am the guardian of the well, the sum of contrasts. Kisses on my body are the scars of those who tried. From the flute between the thighs my song rises and from my song flows the curse, water on the earth.

    I am the two moons Lilith. The hand of every maiden, the window of every virgin. The angel of the fall and the conscience of light slumber. Daughter of Delilah, Magdalena and the seven fairies. From my lust mountains rise and rivers break. I return to injure the wisp of virtue with my water and rub the ointment of sin on the wounds of deprivation.

    I am the curse of past curses
    The enticer of boats so the storm will not abate
    My names bejewel your tongues when thirsty you
    Follow me as the touch follows the kiss
    And take me like the night on his mother’s breast.

    I am Lilith the secret of fingers that insist. I open the road and uncover dreams and lay bare the cities of manhood for my deluge. I do not gather two from each kind but I become them so the species will be pure from any virtue.

    The dreams are all open to me
    I am the conscience of light slumber
    I wear and shed the dream
    entice the boats away and don’t guide the storm
    I scatter the sky with the cunning of a cloud
    So no one gets my honey
    I have no home and no pillow
    I am the naked
    Who gives nudity the flower of its meaning.

    I am Lilith the cup and the server
    I came to say:
    More than one cup for me
    I came to say:
    The server is blind
    I came to say:
    Adam, Adam, you are busy with many matters but the need is one.

    Gather me
    The need is one
    Come gather me in the rain of your eyes
    Stab your mounts in my abyss
    Carve your features in the memory of my palms
    And breathe the tigress lurking at the drop of the shoulders.

    I am Lilith, the verse of apple. Books wrote me even if you did not read me. I am the unbridled pleasure the renegade wife the fulfillment of lust which brings the great destruction. My shirt is a window on madness. Whoever hears me deserves to die and whoever does not hear me will be killed by his remorse.

    I am the moon within
    Astray is my compass and migration my home
    No caller knocks at my door
    No house leads to my window
    And no window exists but the illusion of a window.

    I am not the stubborn steed or the easy ride, rather the shiver of the first seduction.
    I am neither the stubborn horse nor the easy steed, rather the debacle of the final regret.

    I am Lilith the destiny woman
    Salome’s last dance and the fading of the light
    I climb your night stone by stone every time the sun of absence bleeds the horizon
    I climb to set a dream to the table
    I delve into your vagabond mind
    I make room for my head in your sleep.

    For my blazes I climb up the stairways of the night
    And for your dreams
    I seek not certainty but obsession
    Not arriving but the pleasure of not arriving.
    Your night is my ladder to me
    And my hand to beneath the imaginary.

    I am the two genders Lilith. I am the desired gender. I take and am not given. I bring back to Adam his truth, and to Eve her ferocious breast so the logic of creation is appeased.

    I am the one who was conceived under the sign of ecstasy
    She whose presence rises
    She whose tongue is a beehive
    She who is a cake, eaten and kept
    She who is the crying hunger
    And who Limbo preserves.

    I am the arrogance of the two breasts
    Budding to grow and laugh
    To want and be eaten
    My breasts are salty
    So high that I do not reach them:
    Kiss them for me.

    Two lamps hint in two lights
    Budding so that their mischief may be forgiven.

    I am Lilith, the lascivious angel. Adam’s first steed, corrupter of Satan. The shadow of stifled sex and its purest scream. I am the shy maiden of the volcano, the jealous because I am the beautiful whisperer of the wilderness. The first paradise could not stand me. I was pushed out to sow conflict on earth and arrange in beds the matters of my subjects.

    My hand is the key to flame and the fierceness of hope
    Your bodies are firewood and my hand is the fireplace
    My hand is unbridled desire:
    With faith
    It moves mountains.

    I, the goddess of the twin nights, the destiny of the wise. The unity of sleep and wakefulness. I am the foetus poet. I slew myself and found her. I return from my exile to be the bride of the seven days and the destruction of future life.

    I am the seducing lioness. I return to slay the prisoners and rule the earth.
    I return to mend Adam’s ribs and rid the men from their Eves.

    I am Lilith, returned from exile to inherit the death of the mother to whom
    I gave birth



    Probably going to get asked to pass a witch test again for that one.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Love that site. I have read it before. <3 I have a copy of the Nag Hammadhi Library but it is kind of thick and heavy so I like to read online. I found it much more interesting to read than the bible. You might find this kind of in synch. I love this poem and have posted on the forum before.


    The Return of Lilith


    Probably going to get asked to pass a witch test again for that one.
    Yea, a little too in sync. Hmm.. IEI. Witch. Lilith complex... this is entrapment

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    It get's hard for a mere mortal like me to figure that shit out once it gets to this point. I mean, how many sects/denominations are we up to now? It's well over a thousand I'd wager. I'll need at least some cursory hints to narrow it down given that fact. Still, you're not in the "Shoot all Papists dead on sight" camp it would seem. That's a point in your favor on my end .

    Several thousands. Blah Blah, yes. But if there are so many then how can you be sure that urs is the right one?

    I've given you several cursory notes, maby you were not paying attention. Also being a 'mere mortal' such as yourself is a way of shifting blame, and responsibility. I'd be more careful about doing so, if I were in those shoes of yours.

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    @ashlesha

    Thanks for making this thread.

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