I have an observation about ESEs/ESFjs

[FreelancePoliceman]

When they’re young, they seem naive, perceptive, and non-confrontational — “nice”; they don’t rock the boat, and seem too timid, almost, to act rude. By their mid-30s, though, they’ve developed some very definite ideas about people and other things, and they’ll murmur irreverent thoughts to their friends. By their mid-40s it’s difficult for them to restrain themselves from mentioning these impressions. Then as they age further (and especially once they retire) they just stop caring, and they delight to deluge strangers with an endless stream of opinions about the world.

[Spencer]

When they’re young, they seem naive, perceptive, and non-confrontational — “nice”; they don’t rock the boat, and seem too timid, almost, to act rude. By their mid-30s, though, they’ve developed some very definite ideas about people and other things, and they’ll murmur irreverent thoughts to their friends. By their mid-40s it’s difficult for them to restrain themselves from mentioning these impressions. Then as they age further (and especially once they retire) they just stop caring, and they delight to deluge strangers with an endless stream of opinions about the world.

I have an ESE friend (f, 23) who's already in that phase. She changed in the past few years; listened a lot to Bill Burr podcasts and now I can't spend a day with her without hearing her trashing about women :/. Those commects come from nowhere. We're cooking and then comes some negative commect about a cool female lead from a random movie and how that's related to #metoo. She expects people to agree with her or confirm her bad mood. But wtf we where cooking and having a good time and then that.

I don't mean to say Bill Burr is a woman hater or anything! It's more like she gathered all sorts of opinions that are not necessarily her own but from people she respects without the shades of gray that the people had in their thinking.

Before, she stood up for others and defended their interests but had to endure a lot of criticism. Now she is bitter about almost anything. As if she's searching for something to confirm her feelings.
I agree that they're very naive when they're very young or at the beginning of their career. Disillusionment hits them hard.

[FreelancePoliceman]

I have an ESE friend (f, 23) who's already in that phase. She changed in the past few years; listened a lot to Bill Burr podcasts and now I can't spend a day with her without hearing her trashing about women :/. Those commects come from nowhere. We're cooking and then comes some negative commect about a cool female lead from a random movie and how that's related to #metoo. She expects people to agree with her or confirm her bad mood. But wtf we where cooking and having a good time and then that.

I don't mean to say Bill Burr is a woman hater or anything! It's more like she gathered all sorts of opinions that are not necessarily her own but from people she respects without the shades of gray that the people had in their thinking.

Before, she stood up for others and defended their interests but had to endure a lot of criticism. Now she is bitter about almost anything. As if she's searching for something to confirm her feelings.
I agree that they're very naive when they're very young or at the beginning of their career. Disillusionment hits them hard.

That’s spot-on, I think, and reminds me of my ESE family members. Re. bitterness, I considered mentioning that, but I wasn’t sure if that was just specific to my family. I remember my mother, for instance, being much more laid back and “nice” when I was a kid — generally pleasant. But in the last few years she’s absorbed more of the rantings of my father, and will publicly complain about “the gay agenda” or “the weed-smoking hippie liberal agenda” and such in response to, say, seeing a gay character on her favorite TV show. She also seems paranoid in a way that everything is something dangerous — schools are indoctrinating kids to be atheist Democrats, various foods (vegetable oil, potatoes, MSG, etc.) will kill you, she’s of danger of being shot if she goes in a black neighborhood. As you said, it’s like she’s constantly searching for reasons to validate her insecurity. I also agree that it’s related to disillusionment. She’s been hit down so many times it’s really taken a toll on her. I think it’s difficult for her to feel happy, on some level, but she doesn’t know how to feel anything differently, consciously at least.

On a lighter note, her also-ESE mother/my grandmother recently talked to a high school friend of one of her sons. When she learned he was unmarried and not seeing anyone, she asked disapprovingly “so are you gay then or what?” (To be clear, my grandmother’s an unpleasant woman and I’m not suggesting she’s at all representative of ESEs.)

[Rebelondeck]

@FreelancePoliceman Some of what you describe is a normal process of gaining confidence with oneself, and the theme can be applied to all types. ESEs do get fixed ideas about things and have a tendency to focus on information that supports what they believe is true - a sort of tunnel vision. However, their endless streams of opinions can be engaged and challenged, and they seem to welcome it; if a better rationalization (that they can understand) is presented, ESEs will normally change their stances immediately. One shouldn't assume that ESE opinions are cast in concrete (like some Ips that I know ) or that they're preaching because the real objectives of their boisterous deluges are likely "confirmations" because most Ejs seem to constantly have that nagging thought in the back of their minds: "What if I'm wrong?"......

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

Nothing new under the sun... Ej's want ego bosted subjective dictation. What ever floats their boat I guess.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

ESEs are naive-ish and superficially nice like that with others - and can be horrible victims to Ni powerplays but remember they also have four dimensional Se which really, really helps out in day to day life and helps balance that out. I think the forums tend to see them as like naive easily hurt housewives a lot because there is a lot of Ni on internet forums but the real living world has tons of Se in it, and they do it well. I feel like socionic forums especially really under-estimate Se a lot, or they are just hyper-focused on the criminal aspects of it.

lol @ forum NTs/NFs crying victimishly about something that SF/ST types do easily with one hand tied behind their back.

[FreelancePoliceman]

lol @ forum NTs/NFs crying victimishly about something that SF/ST types do easily with one hand tied behind their back.

Hm?

[Exodus]

I could definitely see that happening as a result of developing Ti. It may not apply in all cases though.

[Cosmic Teapot]

@FreelancePoliceman, I have an acquaintance who studied pedagogics and then worked in an institute for statistics on schools and educations. She helped designing questionnaires which she then analyzed and evaluated for research papers. Those would find their way into politics and organizations that decide the fade of our school system. She witnessed how much corruption and data manipulation there actually is and decided to reorient her career by studying computer science. She was frustrated by what she saw in her institute but no obvious signs of crudeness or more prejudice than I see as usual for ESEs, in her case.

[Sol]

people with age feel higher status to be more assured. also women become more aggressive with hormones changes
mb those changes are more noticable in S-E types as they are more open and direct in expressions

[Finaplex]

That’s spot-on, I think, and reminds me of my ESE family members. Re. bitterness, I considered mentioning that, but I wasn’t sure if that was just specific to my family. I remember my mother, for instance, being much more laid back and “nice” when I was a kid — generally pleasant. But in the last few years she’s absorbed more of the rantings of my father, and will publicly complain about “the gay agenda” or “the weed-smoking hippie liberal agenda” and such in response to, say, seeing a gay character on her favorite TV show. She also seems paranoid in a way that everything is something dangerous — schools are indoctrinating kids to be atheist Democrats, various foods (vegetable oil, potatoes, MSG, etc.) will kill you, she’s of danger of being shot if she goes in a black neighborhood. As you said, it’s like she’s constantly searching for reasons to validate her insecurity. I also agree that it’s related to disillusionment. She’s been hit down so many times it’s really taken a toll on her. I think it’s difficult for her to feel happy, on some level, but she doesn’t know how to feel anything differently, consciously at least.

On a lighter note, her also-ESE mother/my grandmother recently talked to a high school friend of one of her sons. When she learned he was unmarried and not seeing anyone, she asked disapprovingly “so are you gay then or what?” (To be clear, my grandmother’s an unpleasant woman and I’m not suggesting she’s at all representative of ESEs.)

So basically she searches for Ne and gets negative hits that satisfy that need ie : paranoia......and the closed mouth agenda becomes more prevalent as they age.

[Finaplex]

ESEs are naive-ish and superficially nice like that with others

I have a close ESE friend who is exactly this way. In their 50s, and very nice with people, almost dapper? sometimes. HellLoOOooo how ARE you?

It can make me cringe, yet its so obviously welcoming that it puts people at ease around him. Think my friendly neighbour Mr Rogers.

Having said that...he also manages a multi million dollar Community Arts Center and Theatre and flies all over the country as a top theatre exucuative. Makes well over 150,000 dollars a year and has budget demands of millions and a large staff. Like to underestimate him would be a mistake. And yes, he is ESE there is no doubt in my mind (a personal collection room of plastic theatre food from around the world? trips across the border to buy discounted cheap Candles..... there is no doubt what sociotype would do this.).

- and can be horrible victims to Ni powerplays but remember they also have four dimensional Se which really, really helps out in day to day life and helps balance that out. I think the forums tend to see them as like naive easily hurt housewives a lot because there is a lot of Ni on internet forums but the real living world has tons of Se in it, and they do it well. I feel like socionic forums especially really under-estimate Se a lot, or they are just hyper-focused on the criminal aspects of it.

The really want to see the best in people which is a alpha SF thing over all.

As far as the second part, Se is only punching people in the face and gold chains, this is the common misconception. I don't think most people have the faintest idea what Se looks like in people because the world is generally obsessed with dysfunction and only see the dysfunctional Se.

lol @ forum NTs/NFs crying victimishly about something that SF/ST types do easily with one hand tied behind their back.

Yup.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I don't get the hm comment... I mean, what I said was kinda mean but true, and I was also poking fun of myself, since I'm NF type and I know very well due to how my brain is wired, physically objective things (like both Se & Te are - Te is external dynamics of objects and Se is external statics of objects) are very draining for me personally. I get exhausted easily when to a lot of people its like I didn't do anything. Even when I was physically fit I was this way...I still try to work at it though, but its definitely not a natural strength and it shows. My mom is 4D-SE ESE and she just easily flows through the physical objective nature of life much better than me.

However I'm so good at sizing people up like almost instantly and narcissistically seeing right through them and how they are generally lmao. I know how mine and somebody else's energy is going to match with 4D Fi...and I know what to say to somebody almost all of the time to either get them on my side or at least be neutral and leave me alone, but my point was the real world just has a bunch of Te/Se crap that has absolutely nothing to do with that. So a lot of times I think forum NF/NTs will complain about something and make it too much of an interpersonal issue when it actually has nothing to do with that, or it does kinda- but we are overly exaggerating that aspect of it, when the real problem is our Se or Te is just too shitty and we really need logical and physical assistance with something, not emotional or social (we are the best therapists anyway). okay sorry I'm probably talking too much. I need to get a real life. <3