Are you saying that autism is somehow connected to sensing? Could you explain what you were saying.Originally Posted by mr provocateur
Are you saying that autism is somehow connected to sensing? Could you explain what you were saying.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Well, autistic people tend to have hypersensitive senses that are not readily digestible (although an organ is the communicator, it seems to be neurological). This sort of lines with Ni bases having Si role (you can check Jung).
I c an see the reverse in Si bases too. TIme domain connections may be seen as stressful to think about which result in occasional non-visionary stubbornness attitude.
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For me, Si-PoLR means that I am not confident in my ability to dress myself stylishly. If I didn't pay competent people to pick out my clothes for me, I'd look like the guy narrating this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR8cR75iKGU
It also means that I tend to ignore my health, and I hate the idea of having any kind of operation. I can definitely relate to EIE Steve Job's desire to fix his pancreatic cancer by eating apples, rather than having his liver replaced.
I've ignored broken bones rather than go to the hospital, and I tend to eat anything that fits in my mouth, without much regard to its taste or age.
I will say one thing: In recent years, I've come to appreciate the value of a clean and sparse house. I also tend to clean very thoroughly, when I do clean, and I bathe and change my clothes every single day. I'm not sure if that is Si-related, but it's what I do.
Also, my car is a mess. It gets washed when it rains. Someone once told me that I treat my Mercedes like a truck. Well, it's built like a truck.*
*
If you haven't read "The Appearance of Power" by Tanner Guzy I'd highly recommend it. Dude makes a living by telling men how to dress well and as books written by well-meaning and good faith experts are for those who have more time than money I'd give it a go.
He does bring up a very good point in that book that I fear you might be falling victim to. See, he emphasizes the importance of you telling your story through your own style and how most "professional stylists" treat their clients like mannequins they have to dress up "correctly". If nothing else I'd say read that book and then try to relate some of the lessons to them and see if that triggers them.
A good professional stylist would take your input enthusiastically. You'd finally be collaborating with them to take your look to the "next level" as it were. If they get mad than you know you need to find someone who doesn't get pissed when you want to contribute to the process over just being a mannequin they get paid to dress up like a glorified Ken Doll.
Slightly off topic, but not really: Thank god I am Si Ignoring and don't have to pay people to show me how to dress, lol.
Just keep it simple, neutral and appropriate for the occasion. You can't go wrong. You don't even need to buy a book. You just need to use your common sense.
You don't have to dress like you're going to a fashion runway. That's how they get you by the balls, and that "personal style" nonsense too. You don't need dressed up either.
It's a popular joke that ILI is just a code word for those who have mild Asperger's Syndrome. I will agree that for those unlucky enough to haveas a role or PoLr it tends to manifest as an utter incapacity to grasp the unfoldings of processes of time.
For example, my mother is an LSE and thus has. Those who have it vacillate between me going "Yeah that's exactly how you ought to say such a thing" and "We all know that's just a bunch of BS and I hate you for acting like it isn't you sophistic piece of shit"
Such "common sense" comes naturally to those within the "good" spots in their stack of traits. For those with it in the "bad" spots it's not so easy.
Neutral and "appropriate" is how most men dress IRL. You want to go to the next level though. To dress not merely appropriately, but ideally. To not be simply neutral and acceptable, but rather to make a statement that advances you within whatever hierarchy you find yourself inhabiting and, ideally, helping other men to do likewise as a truly masculine man is always reaching one hand towards the next rung on the ladder while reaching downwards to help the man right behind him keep up and climb ever higher even unto the point where said man they helped surpasses them.
Si PoLr in ENTj and ENFj Misconceptions
This is the most gamma thing I have read all day.Such "common sense" comes naturally to those with
Neutral and "appropriate" is how most men dress IRL. You want to go to the next level though. To dress not merely appropriately, but ideally. To not be simply neutral and acceptable, but rather to make a statement that advances you within whatever hierarchy you find yourself inhabiting and, ideally, helping other men to do likewise as a truly masculine man is always reaching one hand towards the next rung on the ladder while reaching downwards to help the man right behind him keep up and climb ever higher even unto the point where said man they helped surpasses them.
Using common sense is good judgement, especially when it comes to how to dress. Dressing ideally and making a statement is pointless if you aren’t prepared for all weather. For what the day brings.
And you can’t advance yourself or help another man up the ladder if you’re dressed like a rapper version of your grandma, and your chain weighs you down, just to to make a statement.
I do not suffer fools gladly.
This is true and even mentioned in the book I recommended. Wearing a 3-Piece Suit may make a statement, but it won't exactly help you surf better at a surfing event/you just wanna surf some waves. If you're invited to an "All White" Gala than you had better be wearing all white clothing even if other colors suit you better.
There is always an element of "common sense". There are always "rules" to be followed. However, only once one understand what the rules are can they be broken constructively. Great music and novels have been composed/written that went against the "rules", but I guarantee you those that pulled that off successfully were only able to do so because they knew what the rules were in minute detail and saw compelling exceptions where others didn't.
Yeah, that makes sense obviously. You want to be practical in that regard. And sticking to themes is "common sense" from that aspect as well, if you're invited somewhere, though I never will be invited anywhere like that 'cause I don't make enough connections, and am not business-orientated from that aspect.
Yeah, of course you need to follow rules, but yeah, you need to know how to 'break' them without making them inconsistent as well. Yeah, the "greatest" (in that sense) people always see some sort of detail/loophole that people miss, and they bend it to make it work in execution. You still need structure and a foundation, yeah, but you also need to understand things well enough to pull things off that others can't/don't see. That's how new trends are also made. I agree from that perspective 100%.
You sure you're not a Gamma? Because what you said is about as Healthy and Gamma as it gets. If anyone gets and understands how and why a given exception exists to a rule it's us (i.e. Gammas). When you combineand
with
you get an entire quadra of applied engineers. ILI/LIE's nail it materially and SEE/ESI's nail it socially. "Good Enough" is Perfect in the given sphere they focus on. For us Gamma's all that really matters is results. If we're healthy we take into consideration that we may be wrong while knowing that "taking no action" may well be the absolute worst decision of them all. That's not a controversy for us. Doing "nothing" may well be worse than fucking up intentionally. At least the "intentional" fuck up made a choice damnit!
Exceptions ought to prove rules however. They are outliers. Lottery odds against what is to be generally expected out of reality. We Gammas know of and respect such things, but also know and disrespect those who seemingly bank their life goals/plans/happiness/etc. on such things. Yeah, you might might get the ultimate happy ending if and only if X happens beyond my wildest dreams and if that happens to you great!
Lamentably, that won't happen. "Utopia" means "nowhere" for a darn good reason. Only in "nowhere" does it all work out perfectly. I also assume perfect psychological health. A broken SEE will earnestly think what amounts to a perfectly well adjusted ILI will just find her and unconditionally love her as she cheats on him for no good rational reason as the broken ILI will assume she'll just notice him because his
I could go on for the other types, but I stick to what I know and I'm an ILI seeking an SEE so this example of insanity comes from this perspective. I'd encourage others to post their own. I'd be particularly interested in what an ESE/LII or an LSI/EIE couple would come up with. I have such people in my life. I'd like to gather data on how they think and thus, how I might best try to help them achieve optimal happiness.
I never really thought of Gamma as Engineers but that makes sense. Yeah, being result orientated with the Te/Se and doing things, and keeping it rolling with the focus of the Ni/Fi is basically the “ethos” of Gamma as a whole, I’d say. I agree that taking no action is a waste of time, the worst decision. If you do something, then you can learn from it and you know where you went wrong. And then you can take it from there and re-do it/move on.
Yeah, exceptions to the rule are anomalies and not the norm. You can’t go by life expecting exceptions to make everything better. You have to be realistic, definitely, and think about the factors involved. If someone bought a Lotto ticket and won $2 Billion like Edwin Castro did, good for him. You will never copy him exactly. Nice things will happen, and so will crap things. That’s just how life is.
At the end of the day, life is a series of cause and effect events that make up the timeline of your existence. You can control some of the variables, but you will never control them all. In short, shit happens and your idealism gets a reality check because of it. You have to weather the storm and keep adjusting to ride the waves.
But yeah, you’re right. Realistically, it won’t happen. Even within relations (say, duals), you have to put in work, which is difficult because you have to “know” the person on an intimate level, which is very taxing in itself, and it usually ends in failure because both ends aren’t putting in the effort. Dualism in Socionics is overrated, and it’s treated as mystic and outside of the system by a lot of people as a completionism rhetoric. I’m terrible with relations, and they never last, and I don’t know how to form them, and I say stupid shit. Trying to maintain closeness tires me, I don’t know where I stand with people relationally a lot of the time. Too much effort for no pay off, most of the time.
The surface level says “it might work out, theoretically if we compliment each other”, but the actual reality says “no”. I don’t value building relations and can go long periods of time without interacting with anyone just fine. I don’t see the world as a series of connections, naturally, so maybe I am looking at this to one dimensionally. But that’s just my opinion on the matter at hand.
And to answer your other question:
I haven't considered Gamma, in part since the whole "SEE DEAD" meme to be honest. Yeah, I'm beating a "DEAD" horse at this point (geddit?), and also because I might be a Beta ST. The issue is the positioning of the functions within the psyche manifesting in the real world, against the theory. When I do a test, it's usually SLE > LSI > LIE > SLI in a similar order with every single one of them, even when you change the variables. So judging by that, there is an obvious propensity toward Te, Se, Ti, Ni in some order over Si, Fi, Ne and Fe.You sure you're not a Gamma? Because what you said is about as Healthy and Gamma as it gets.
I think the problem with people not typing as Gamma is the over-focus on "productivity" alone, especially within the Te ego types. But a part of what also "drives" productivity is the "willpower" of Se. Without combining either, regardless of type, especially for the Gamma extroverts, you won't get things done. You have to utliize your plan and ideas into the real world in order to be successful from that standpoint. Are there lazy bum Gammas who can't do either? Contrary to popular belief, yes.
You have people like Adam Strange, Tony Robbins, Jay-Z, Trump (oh dear, the pitchforks are coming out already, but I think he is Gamma), Leo DiCaprio, Cardi B, Adele on one end of the spectrum, and then people who aren't rich and famous but are still Gammas through and through, like the hikkikomori (unhealthy coping mechanisms with low Fe), or the closed-off “bitchy” judgemental people (more commonly linked to low/Ne PoLR) etc. You don't have to own ten yachts, five strip clubs, a casino and ten houses in five countries in order to be a Gamma in the same way you don't have to be a cult leader, start a revolution or run a cartel from jail in order to be a Beta.
People blow the stereotypes out of proportion due to bad translations, confirmation bias and their own poking fun at them (which I say, go ahead to show how ridiculous they are in reality).
If I was a Gamma type, I would most likely consider Gamma NT > SEE (you're probably asking why? If you type yourself as a "Beta" ST, wouldn't it make logical sense to type yourself as "SEE > LIE because of that Se base connection?") it's honestly because my Fi and Fe are weak. Are there pragmatic SEE people who have a good grasp of Te HA, and know how to use it and apply things well in reality? Of course. But SEE, to me, are the "social" version of SLE/LIE. They are good at navigating the social aspects of opportunities and exploiting them in terms of networking and using people to their advantage - "manipulating them" (I don't mean being selfish and manipulative [don't agree with the wording on how that term is specifically used in Socionics], but more in the sense of encouraging and persuading people to get things done) to promote their "works" and "plans" to maximise those opportunities.
They are much more adept in the social sphere (like you mentioned) because of the strong creative Fi and 4d Fe demo. They can work a room, and create a sense of unity, but at the same time connect with people on an individual, and much more personable level than an Fe base can, because they use that creative function like a deck of cards (versus the ignoring aspect of the Fe Base, who get relations but would rather make connections with a group on a global scale). They in a sense seem like they are "everyone's best friend", even when they are not. That works to their advantage from that aspec, due to their weaker logical functions and intuition.
Fi creative is more than people saying that they “like” or “dislike” things, tho an aspect of it, and having “strong” opinions. Having strong opinions per-se are not “Fi” as a function, depending on the focus. If the focus is on relations, then I guess you can say that is “Fi-like” to a degree. Fi is just relational Ti. Ti uses laws and rules based in the objective/logical sphere to justify their decisions, and Fi does the same thing, but based around values/morals and relations.
Am I good at Fi? Not particularly. Once I went to a music networking event, and I went for the seminars and I didn’t do networking/connections with the people there. Only the people who went to talk to me. I was more interested in the content of the seminars and learning from them than talking to people and selling my “brand” as it where. I had a concept and a vision for an album, but that didn’t materialize because I have lost interest in the album at the moment, due to a lack of motivation (I will come back to it, but I need to make/plan more songs). And I want to focus more on my novel at the moment because it has more of a foundation and an outline, and music isn’t my profession.
And Ti vs Te to me is (in a nutshell):
Ti - WHY ARE are things working this way? I think they are working this way because of this framework defining things.
Te- HOW ARE things actually working this way? I know things are working this way because of this data proving it is.
The Te base ignores the why, and focuses on the how, whereas the Ti base focuses on the why and ignores the how.
I mean, it takes me time to research things, and make sure that they are cohesive and make sense, but they also have to have some sort of "proof" or "real world implication" or "use" outside of just being a theory in my mind. I know that sounds kind of "contradictory" in a way for most people studying socionics, but in a way I use it as a tool outside of the actual theory (i.e. typing characters, typing people in real life to be the best fit etc). And I want to improve the theory in a way and cut out all the unproven bullshit. But you have people expanding, and using their own versions of the theory all the time. They are additive, rather than subjective, which makes it more difficult to cut through the crap. You have to learn more and sharpen the razor, you know?
I also tend to have a good encyclopaedic knowledge of musical genres, and have written papers on certain genres (i.e. reggaeton, nu-metal) before. I know a lot of obscure songs from reggaeton especially and have curated many lists from different eras, and can tell what songs are linked/sampled from what etc. I have “specialist areas” inside my mind that I like to be proficient in, even though I can act in the moment when I need to get things done.
I am excellent at solving problems and finding them. And offering solutions, and even fixing things up. I am proactive in that area whenever I can and need to be. People come to be as the problem-solver. Especially people who are more people and less technology orientated or don’t have a good grasp of modern technology. I have thought about offering/assisting people in “tech issues” (i.e. how to work a computer, common computer problems, etc) in the form of a weekly class at a community center. Maybe in the future, I dunno.
Ni valuing in a Gamma sense is more like measuring the "entropy" of events (not society as a whole, not like Beta) and how they change over time, to see how they can become more efficient in the end game (towards the goal), like for example (X should be happening today, Y should be happening tomorrow, and Z in two weeks). It evolves over time, into something tangible (e.g. when X, Y and Z come together by the end of the month properly, and I do the process to finish it off, I will have my sourdough loaf [the end goal] by then).
Beta on the other hand, is societal focused because they are Fe valuing. They don't care about "the loaf" (object) as a tangible, finished product in the same way, they just want to share the loaf and use it as a way to move people emotionally towards the goal (say, the goal is to build a house, the mentality is more like "if everyone is fed and restored, we can all build this bakery together, and we can make more bread so everyone stays happy"). It's individualism (Ni-Fi) vs community, common goal striving in a sense/community based/“common good” roots. (Ni-Fe).
As for Si, I watched a video with an LSE in it and almost fell asleep. There’s concrete and then there’s CONCRETE. Drywall. Si-Ne is a lot more “hollow” compared to the Se-Ni axis. After observing and processing some people who are typed “Delta”, I understand why they are called the “normies” within the Socionics realm. The detailed ennui function. Getting too lost in the details bogs me down a bit.
And I know that it’s not exactly linked to a Socionics type, but the concept of “experiences”, especially in something like a wedding, you could clutch at straws and argue that it is loosely linked to “Si” in a way, if you use Sociotype.com’s description:
Introverted sensing is an irrational, introverted, and dynamic information element. It is also referred to as Si, S, experiential sensing, or white sensing. Si is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail. Si focuses on tangible, direct (external) connections (introverted) between processes (dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects.
The whole point is to be married through the ceremony, that’s the endgame. You don’t need to make a statement, or overly idealise and follow to the letter everything that’s laid out in order to have an experience. I know this is miserable, but you want to save as much money as you can if you get married, and not waste it all on the day. You’re only going to wear that expensive dress and suit once. I know that they say “your wedding is meant to be the happiest day of your life”, but they don’t look at the long term. What about after your marry? You’re meant to “stick together” afterwards. If you don’t, it’s a big investment wasted, especially without pre-nups if you divorce.
The whole motivational speech thing that Delta types especially seem to be drawn to, and leaving notes around is arbitrary. If you actually want to do something, you need to make your own willpower, and have the drive and desire to finish it. You can’t actually idealise the idea nd brainstorm what is possible. You are the catalysts for that, not someone else. Not ideas, not encouragement.
Am I critical of things? Is water wet? Do I like to point out flaws, but also how things could be bettered? Yes. Do I give constructive advice from that aspect? Definitely. Tonight, I was talking to my Dad about how Chelsea football club could be improved, and what the new owners are doing wrong, and what the old owners did right, and about how throwing money at a club and not having a vision and investment in making it grow doesn’t work because you aren’t actually having a plan to put forward, or nurturing the new talent in the club (i.e. the under 18 teams, giving those guys a run in the first team, the ones that show potential anyway, introducing them into the team as one of the focus points, and letting yourself save money on buying untested/unproven players from big name clubs).
Chelsea have had issues with that, e.g. blowing £100 MILLION on Enzo, who’s done barely anything this season; £110 MILLION on Caicedo, who’s barely got a chance to pay and around £50 MILLION on Lavia, who’s been out injured for most of the season. They also have issues with loaning players out, and not bringing them back again, or selling them on too early (e.g. Mo Salah who has done great things for Liverpool, Rudiger, who was the most skilled defender, and even Diego Costa in his heyday).
Ever since Chelsea have obliterated their team since the ownership change of Abramovich over to Clearlake, Chelsea have dropped in quality considerably. They have went from being in the top 5 over the last five years, down to 12th last season and are currently at 10th in the table right now, with nine more games to play. They have 43 points now, and the maximum they can get (if they win everything, which is unlikely) will be 70. The only hope now is to win 6 of those games, if they want to end up in the European places (even the Europa League) and hope that the other clubs slip up around them enough to let that happen.
The current model for Chelsea is unsustainable and will continue to effect the club in the long term if they keep it up, but enough about that for now. I’ve said my part. I could talk all night about he failings of Chelsea, but that would bring us too off-topic.
But another side note, there are other side factors such as subtype, general cognitive development, etc that influence types, and I also get that people combine enneagram with Socionics and if it well as they say it does, occasionally LIE 8 can come across looking more “Se-like” and SEE 3 can come across looking more “Te-like” based on those descriptions, but that’s another topic for another day, but yeah, I fell asleep last night typing this and saved it to finish today. I’l add more to this later and talk later but those are all my thoughts for now.
@End
Last edited by DEAD; 05-31-2024 at 03:10 PM.
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