Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Socionics negativism vs. negativism as a result of unhealthy psyche

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    158 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Socionics negativism vs. negativism as a result of unhealthy psyche

    How can one tell a difference between a true socionics negativist and someone who's negative because of being unhealthy? Say people who are depressed or have depressive structure of their psyche, wouldn't they appear to be nagativists in the socionics sense as well, even when it would be inaccurate for the theory? Or people who are constantly bragging about things because of their own inner insecurities or lack of self awareness and other unhealthy and socionics unrelated motives for their behavior?


  2. #2
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1,893
    Mentioned
    158 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Negativism is baggage that someone acquires due to bad experiences and or bad upbringings and or medical conditions. To imply that it's inherent within some aspect of information processing would be incorrect. Type's data processing algorithms influence the perception of negative events and how they would be rationalized but doesn't themselves create the insecurities, negativity, etc......

    a.k.a. I/O

  3. #3
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,725
    Mentioned
    250 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If you remove the value judgments from negativism / positivism, and set aside whether it actually even has anything to do with Socionics, I'd call myself a negativist. I say this because I tend to see where something is broken and needs to be improved. I tend to assess the distance from where something is (a project, a concept, a product) to where it can go in order to make it complete, realized, functional, whatever.

    Sometimes this can rub people the wrong way. Even if I give affectively neutral or positive feedback, someone may want to shield another person, or themselves, from this kind of information regarding lack or indicating the potential for further work and refinement, even if the information was directly requested.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

  4. #4
    mindless Aeris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    nowhere important
    TIM
    heartless
    Posts
    481
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I have been thinking of socionics negativism as just being orriented on fixing problems more than pushing advantages, not pessimism or seenig the world all dark and grim, that can happen to anyone.
    I'm thinking about ILE-SEI, ILE tend to make others feel uncomfortable, it's the SEI who smoothes things over, the negativist fixing the atmosphere problem. ILI will warn the SEE of the possible problems to come from their endeavor and work at fixing it. Some need to be more vocal about the problems they see, others simply fix quietly.
    Seeing too many problems, or too little advantages can make anyone depressed I think.

    *Advantages is probably not the best word, but I couldn't think of anything else.

  5. #5
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,359
    Mentioned
    215 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    If you remove the value judgments from negativism / positivism, and set aside whether it actually even has anything to do with Socionics, I'd call myself a negativist. I say this because I tend to see where something is broken and needs to be improved. I tend to assess the distance from where something is (a project, a concept, a product) to where it can go in order to make it complete, realized, functional, whatever.

    Sometimes this can rub people the wrong way. Even if I give affectively neutral or positive feedback, someone may want to shield another person, or themselves, from this kind of information regarding lack or indicating the potential for further work and refinement, even if the information was directly requested.
    I'm similar, but more towards something (a conceptual something) is missing rather than broken. But still the something needs to be improved thing. How can I/you/we get a better picture of what we're talking about? When we look at it from this way, what are we missing? or how does it differ from when we look at it this other way? What could be chipped away yet leave us with a clearer picture of the underlying concepts involved? What doesn't fit right? etc.

    In conversations where there's misunderstandings happening, I can get obsessive over trying to figure out what's missing, what am I forgetting? what am I getting wrong? What can I change/improve that would make mutual understanding easier? Sometimes I'll even show a written conversation to one or more uninvolved people in as neutral a manner as possible, so I can see what they catch from it that I might have missed.

    Decision making is quite difficult for me, as I'm typically hesitant to make a decision as I feel like I'm risking forgetting or excluding something useful/important. Most of my opinions tend to be "on the one hand, but on the other hand" type of things, or "in one context, but in another context". An idea/opinion/pov might be useful here, but not necessarily useful there. I'll get accused of being too relativist, but then I think...is it relativism or is just that we've not dug deep enough to find the underlying value that both (or more) sides could spring from?

    I totally agree with you that this can rub people the wrong way. People want to feel supported, empathized with, and validated. And mentioning, even in passing, the parts of a situation that they missed...or even the mere idea that there may be parts they've missed... can easily feel like invalidation, criticism, and judgment.

    Note: I don't think all of the above applies to all negativists, as it would more likely be negativist combined with some other personality related aspects (such as combined with Ne, holographic-panoramic thinking, e6, etc)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  6. #6
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,725
    Mentioned
    250 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I totally agree with you that this can rub people the wrong way. People want to feel supported, empathized with, and validated. And mentioning, even in passing, the parts of a situation that they missed...or even the mere idea that there may be parts they've missed... can easily feel like invalidation, criticism, and judgment.
    Yeah, afaik people are more likely to pay attention to negative things than positive things, so even if you're overall validating, the bits that are "negative," no matter how delivered, will stick harder. Also, some people don't have the ego strength to withstand much nuanced feedback, especially if they confuse themselves and their value with their progress at something.

    Note: I don't think all of the above applies to all negativists, as it would more likely be negativist combined with some other personality related aspects (such as combined with Ne, holographic-panoramic thinking, e6, etc)
    A lot of it does sound more 360 degree-ish than I can conceptualize. I see things as unfolding in a linear way.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

  7. #7
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,359
    Mentioned
    215 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    A lot of it does sound more 360 degree-ish than I can conceptualize. I see things as unfolding in a linear way.
    yeah, to me yours sounded more like there's a path/target that's been/being strayed from. In socionics terms, more algorithmic than holographic.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    London, Europe, Earth
    TIM
    maybe iee
    Posts
    31
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    "Positivists initially pay attention to what is present in a situation (what exists, what is there) what can realistically occur"


    "Negativists pay attention to aspects of the situation that are insufficient or lacking" So also what realistically can't occur then...



    Positive and negative examples of each....



    Positivist (positive) Little Timmy has a nice voice, he could be a singer one day....


    Positivist (negative) Where did you get that toy Timmy? Did you steal it from one of the other boys?


    Negativist (positive) Timmy doesn't have many books; I'll buy him some more


    Negativist (negative) Timmy will never be a scientist, he doesn't have the brains...

  9. #9
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    4,051
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    if you talk with my dad he'll say I'm a negativist, if you talk to people I work with they'll say I'm a ball-breaker, and my friends use to think of me as pollyanna... sooo

  10. #10
    MrInternet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    TIM
    ILI-C
    Posts
    4,295
    Mentioned
    116 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well I guess negativist and positivist simply refers to (+) and (-) statements. 'Everything is bad' is a positivist statement, whereas 'Everything is not bad' is a negativist statement. Maybe be careful to bind it to optimism and pessimism.
    Last edited by MrInternet; 07-29-2019 at 10:53 PM.

  11. #11
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    4,051
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    so if u use negative interlocutions you're a negativist... hmmm

  12. #12
    MrInternet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    TIM
    ILI-C
    Posts
    4,295
    Mentioned
    116 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    so if u use negative interlocutions you're a negativist... hmmm
    Yeah, positivists focus on what's present and negativists focus on what's missing. If they choose to focus on the positive or negative is another thing. I don't believe in Reinin dichotomies overall, but positivist/negativist has got to be the most absurd of those.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    13,160
    Mentioned
    1229 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Reinin's traits may to be the result of unhealthy psyche
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  14. #14
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    25,914
    Mentioned
    664 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I'm similar, but more towards something (a conceptual something) is missing rather than broken. But still the something needs to be improved thing. How can I/you/we get a better picture of what we're talking about? When we look at it from this way, what are we missing? or how does it differ from when we look at it this other way? What could be chipped away yet leave us with a clearer picture of the underlying concepts involved? What doesn't fit right? etc.

    In conversations where there's misunderstandings happening, I can get obsessive over trying to figure out what's missing, what am I forgetting? what am I getting wrong? What can I change/improve that would make mutual understanding easier? Sometimes I'll even show a written conversation to one or more uninvolved people in as neutral a manner as possible, so I can see what they catch from it that I might have missed.

    Decision making is quite difficult for me, as I'm typically hesitant to make a decision as I feel like I'm risking forgetting or excluding something useful/important. Most of my opinions tend to be "on the one hand, but on the other hand" type of things, or "in one context, but in another context". An idea/opinion/pov might be useful here, but not necessarily useful there. I'll get accused of being too relativist, but then I think...is it relativism or is just that we've not dug deep enough to find the underlying value that both (or more) sides could spring from?

    I totally agree with you that this can rub people the wrong way. People want to feel supported, empathized with, and validated. And mentioning, even in passing, the parts of a situation that they missed...or even the mere idea that there may be parts they've missed... can easily feel like invalidation, criticism, and judgment.

    Note: I don't think all of the above applies to all negativists, as it would more likely be negativist combined with some other personality related aspects (such as combined with Ne, holographic-panoramic thinking, e6, etc)
    I'm definitely positivist.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  15. #15
    Number 9 large's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Baking bread
    TIM
    ESTp 7w8 Aries Sp/Sx
    Posts
    4,306
    Mentioned
    241 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fay View Post
    How can one tell a difference between a true socionics negativist and someone who's negative because of being unhealthy? Say people who are depressed or have depressive structure of their psyche, wouldn't they appear to be nagativists in the socionics sense as well, even when it would be inaccurate for the theory? Or people who are constantly bragging about things because of their own inner insecurities or lack of self awareness and other unhealthy and socionics unrelated motives for their behavior?
    socionics negativism just means you talk in negations.
    e.g. you say i am not sick today, instead of saying i feel fine today.

    it has nothing to do with negativity as in feeling down, bad or depressed.
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

  16. #16
    Uncle Ave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    5,074
    Mentioned
    170 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I find it easiest to tell by how you anticipate situations. If your first thought is to minimize the negative before getting into something, that's a negativist attitude. If it's how to maximize the positive, that's a positivist attitude.

    It is not defined as being in a negative or positive place psychologically.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

  17. #17
    Seed my wickedness PseudoRandomBSGenerator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Executing Satanic rituals
    TIM
    ILE-H LEVF/omnibeta
    Posts
    6,940
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Expectations seem more modifiable for negativists and are probably more direct in aggression. Positivists usually raises their hands and swallow the pride and change the point of view.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •