Extremism is just a natural product of people being frustrated and feeling like they have nothing to lose, which is where a lot of people are at today thanks to anti-progressive policies and sucking the free market's dick. The purchasing power of average Americans hasn't risen at all for the past 40 years. People are trapped in debt. Most jobs available on the market pay shit and offer workers no dignity. The government with all its adherers to capitalism and the free market has been doing absolutely nothing to fix any problems. The establishment's #1 enemy has and always will be socialism which is where people forcibly seize assets from the wealthy elite, and they will do whatever they can to muddle the waters and cause the working poor to fight amongst themselves. All this shit ANTIFA and the Trump crowd fight over about like racism and immigration is just a big ruse that distracts people away from the more systematic problems.
Well first of all, socialism doesn't have to accomplished by a complete eating of the rich at the start. First step is for a socialist party to take power of the state, preferably through democratic means if possible. It is expected that will be some insurrection from right-wing nutjobs at the start so they must be dealt with first until things become stable. Then after that you begin to incrementally nationalize portions of the economy, starting with the biggest and most important ones like communication services and banks and then work your way down to smaller private companies. With the acquired resources taken from private enterprise the state will begin providing more social services like public transportation, scientific research, advanced education and advanced healthcare, which all help people as well as boost the economy in the long term. Wages will set at reason levels by the state instead of the free market so you won't see some people make billions while others get scraps. When socialism is achieved national projects will actually be able to be planned effectively and people lives will be able to be gradually and steadily bettered, as opposed to our haphazard and stagnate capitalist system we live in now.
Yes, you have the right to share your “observations” and “conclusions,” but because you admit that you aren’t “super knowledgeable,” then your thoughts simply shouldn’t hold much weight in the dialogue. PERIOD.
This is not CNN, who traffics in the same logical fallacies that you do > instead of treating competing views fairly—i.e., in proportion to their actual merits and significance—they are treated equally, i.e., giving them equal time to present their views even when those views may be known beforehand to be based on false or inaccurate information.
If two people are arguing the merits of childhood vaccinations and one person has a slew of peer reviewed/consensus mediated medical and scientific qualifications and a career in the field spanning 30 years and the other is nothing more than a deeply concerned first time parent voicing what they’ve seen in the case of their own child, then.... I mean, must I even finish this?
It would be absurd to pair these two as equally valid in their perspectives on such a broad, nuanced, complex topic and yet CNN traffics in this sort of shit DAILY. They give undo weight to an unsupported view that effectively diminishes the well supported view, which has the net outcome of imparting the false notion/impression that both views are equally flawed or that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. NOPE. Sometimes the extreme position is actually the correct one, and sometimes the entire spectrum of belief is flawed and incorrect, and the greater truth has yet to be considered or discovered. And this is where thinking critically (as opposed to shallowly and simplistically) comes into play.
Raver’s “logic” in action >
****** and the Nazis: All the jews should be exterminated.
Jews: But we don’t want to be exterminated.
Raver: Let’s take into account both sides of these extremes and reasonably meet somewhere in the middle.
Da fuck? How would it be “logical” and “reasonable” for half of the jews to be exterminated? Another thing, it’s not as if the Jews were actively pursuing the same or any form of aggressive agenda against the Germans and the Germans were just “standing their ground” and “fighting” back against an equal and opposite threat. Nah, ****** and the Nazis were the ones with the actual power (particularly in terms of social/political/militaristic might) and they were railing against a disenfranchised group without the wherewithal to adequately resist them.
John Rawls takes this principle into account in his theorising of the value of tolerating intolerance. For Rawls, there must be a “self-preservation” clause — i.e. if the intolerant are intent on destroying a society, that society has the right to suspend tolerance in order to preserve itself. As such, Rawls believes that the default state of a just (and therefore tolerant) society ought to be that it tolerates the intolerant, until it has any reason not to do so. I tend to side with this frame of thought, in that it doesn’t stifle free speech, but it also doesn’t allow for the most intolerant extremes to destroy everything and everyone due to their having been tolerated.
What you need to learn to wrap your head around is the notion that some forms of extremism are completely wrong and others are not wrong at all, even if they are extreme. I’m not arguing that extreme leftism is correct and right and blameless but what you won’t do is create a false balance that supports the misguided belief that the truth must always lie somewhere in-between the two opposing sides. That’s FALSE. Sometimes, one side is definitely wrong or significantly more wrong, to the degree that the other side may not receive as much focus and attention, which, DUH, makes sense. It would be retarded to give the same attention, admonishment and punishment to both a child who pinches their classmate in response to being pinched and one who stabs their classmate in the neck with a pair of scissors because the teacher asked them to share. And let’s be super fucking clear here, it is the right wing extremists that are running around with scissors.
You want to talk all of this “blah blah” about both sides of the extremes being “a part of the problem” and that we must all work together to form a solution and that’s all fine and well. But guess what? As far as the right wing extremists are concerned, one faction is explicitly hateful and violently so (to the degree that they comprise the overwhelming amount of deaths caused by extremism) and another faction at the very least wants a significant portion of the population to be/remain socially, financially and politically disenfranchised for the sake of an all white ethnostate. And we’re supposed to work with that? Lol Stop with this “both sides” bullshit because it doesn’t reflect what is actually going on and who or what is the actual problem. And if you don’t know what's actually going on, LEARN.
Last edited by Alonzo; 07-12-2019 at 11:19 AM.
lol You mean the family that won't even let you go outside to burn in the sun?
On a personal note, @Raver, your support of prepubescent, identity fucked, emo nutters like the above who—incidentally, its mother must've gotten better at ridding its Day of the Week panties of the dagger like, encrusted skid marks partly responsible for its angsty, "edgy" temperament seeing as how it's become more vocal as of late—to refer to themselves as "Neo-Nazis," doesn't speak well of you. Lots of Uncle Tom/Tio Tomas vibes going on with you that strike me as particularly self-loathing and pathetic.
This is your truth >
That person ain't "white"; furthermore, I've seen you and at best, you are off-white/white approximate, but still easily mistaken for "the help" or some migrant day worker. I don't get people who support belief systems and ideologies that actively and aggressively work against the interests of them and their own people. A lot of your distant cousins are at the US Southern Border, as we speak, being treated like utter shit by racist, bigoted, prejudiced right wing nutjobs no different in thought than run away abortions like @Vizany. If I'm being completely honest, a significant part of the "hostility" you've received from me, stems from the idea that a clear, multi-ethnic person of color would prostrate himself in front of those that would see him disenfranchised or dead.
I think there's some resentment that some established (i.e. having lived in the USA for multiple generations) Hispanic Americans might feel toward more recent immigrants. A sense that they haven't "earned their dues". Not that I agree with this line of thinking, but I've noticed it on occasion with people I've known whose families have already been in the US for at least a few decades.
Your views are no different than the far-rights', because you believe that people of different races and ethnicities inherently don't get along, so you believe that immigration should be restricted if not outright abolished. This view basically justifies attacks and harassments of minorities, because it's their fault for merely existing and being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
How did you see my picture? I never posted it on the forum, lol. Unless you count that time when I went to a meet up 6 years ago and my picture was posted by someone else, but it was eventually removed.
Anyways, if you went through the trouble of looking for my ancestry that I posted on this site then you might as well post the up to date information:
So basically I am 68% European, 23% Native American, 7% African, 2% West Asian
I don't think I've ever claimed to be "white" in this forum lol, I've said many times that I'm mixed race and I've never hidden it. I know very well if I went to the stormfront forums and claimed I was white on these results, that they would laugh and mock me regardless of my physical appearance, but I never sought to be a part of people with those kind of views. I've read the stormfront forums out of curiosity enough to know that I would be treated like any other colored person for being a mongrel so you're pretty much preaching to the choir here.
I have no clue why you keep mentioning @Vizany to me, maybe his posts triggered you. He's a teenager and his views will change as he grows older so you constantly attacking him directly is not cool at all. What is your ethnicity though @Alonzo? You've mentioned before you are 3/4 ethnically Swedish, 1/4 of something else? But then you mentioned you were half viking/half mandingo? Just be completely open and say it. I never actually saw your picture, but I heard from others that you looked African when you posted your pic and quickly took it down? Just say what you are already, are you a quadroon? a mulatto? something else? There is no shame in hiding it, embrace your mixed race heritage like I have instead of beating around the bush.
Anyways, lets talk about my views on immigration in US/Canada/Australia/NZ because it affects me directly as a Canadian. My immigration views on these countries are pretty much center right conservative. I am against mass immigration/open borders into these countries because I believe if we let in too many people, it will put a drain on our infrastructure and our quality of life. I do believe that letting in too many immigrants can worsen our 1st world standard of living, but letting in the right number of immigrants won't. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it for these countries, it's about sheer number of people entering the country that is both legal and illegal.
The same goes for the US as well, it's about receiving the right amount of legal immigrants so population in Canada and US does not get too high and overwhelm the infrastructure in our cities and deteriorate our standard of living like what is happening in California right now due to its homeless epidemic. So with the US, it's mostly about preventing illegal immigration and maintaining reasonable legal immigration levels. With Canada, it's similar, but more of an emphasis on maintaining reduced legal immigration numbers and less on illegal immigration since we have much less illegal immigration.
My center right conservative immigration views in the country I live in that I just mentioned to Alonzo are far right? Maybe to the far left that are open borders/mass immigration, but my views on reducing immigration in my country are quite common:
https://globalnews.ca/news/5397306/c...igration-poll/
I guess 63% of my country is far right for wanting to reduce immigration and keep it at controlled levels. The only people that promote mass immigration/open borders are far leftists to virtue signal about how self-righteous they are and neoliberal and neoconservative corporatists that want a steady flow of cheap labor to profit from.Sixty-three per cent of respondents to a recent Leger poll said the government should prioritize limiting immigration levels because the country might be reaching a limit in its ability to integrate them.
Just 37 per cent said the priority should be on growing immigration to meet the demands of Canada’s expanding economy.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
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1.) How the fuck do you know that "it" will change? I don't give a fuck about "it" being a teenager--there are plenty of non-trash teenagers and so that excuse won't cut it; I'm only tepidly interested in what "it" does now, and for right now, it's a cephalic dumpster baby and will be regarded as such.
2.) Whatever cotton-brained fuckwits told you that I've posted my pic on here before are even more dimwitted than you because I'd never do that. I talk way too much shit to be that stupid. lol But I did post a pic of my father to be VI'd, who was half ethnic Swede/half Brazilian (Cafuzo). My mother is an ethnic Scandinavian and Swedish national. Why the fuck would I feel the need to beat around the bush? In multiple places, I've said that I'm mixed race, proudly so. And for those capable of reading, I said that I was a Viking-Mandingo hybrid, which does not necessarily denote a half and half mixture. The only thing you need to know is that I'm big, blonde, blue and bronzed and still feel compelled to fight for people I don't phenotypically resemble, though we are genetically connected. Unlike you, I don't twerk for Neo-Nazis and those who wouldn't let my ass into the country if they had their way.
For the record, while I don't think any kind of socialism will work including your proposed democratic socialism because it's bound to be corrupted by a privileged elite in a worse way than capitalism is and it results in most just being poor and destitute. Regardless, I still respect these kind of far leftist views because they are well meaning and seek to help the lower and middle class. I consider myself a social democrat aka the nordic model in that I think capitalism needs to remain, but introduce socialist aspects to it in the sense of universal health care, free college, advanced welfare. To a lot of right wingers, economically I am far left, but socially I am far right to a lot of left wingers because of my views on immigration.
I'm a Canadian though so this does not apply to me. We have a lot of Chinese and Indian immigrants who are actually integrating quite well into my country. I'd like to see reduced numbers though like many of my fellow Canadians to encourage integration. 2nd or at the latest 3rd generation immigrant children do integrate well into the country, it's the 1st generation immigrants that fail to integrate into my country ime.
1. The way you view the far right as being sub-human is kind of frightening to be honest. Even though the far left disturb me in their behavior, I wouldn't ever relegate them to sub-human status, I'd want them to change their views and shift them towards the center left. The same goes for the far right as well to have them shift over to the center right. Anyways, I believe anyone's views can change at any age, it is not set in stone.
2. Lol, relax dude, I was just curious. I brought up your ethnicity because you kept bringing up mine so I thought it was fair game. I guess you can't handle the taste of your own medicine, lol. So it looks like you posted your dad's photo then, but whatever since I didn't see it myself. Alright, your 3/4 Swedish and a 1/4 Brazilian (which are mixed to begin with), that's pretty cool man. Anyways, it seems like you are obsessed with ethnicity and race more than me. In terms of immigration into my country I don't care about ethnicity, I care about reducing immigration numbers. I just find it amusing that this stance on immigration means I support neo-nazis and I'm alt-right. Anyways, if we are going by caricatures then I'm half mafia/half cartel so I guess that makes me more threatening then your viking-mandingo mixture.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
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@Raver It's hard not to like you. lol So I'll be exiting this thread.
You advocate ethno-states, like Germany staying ethnically German and Italy staying ethnically Italian and so on. That's pretty far-right.
Also right-wing/conservatives don't say that different races and ethnicities don't fundamentally get along, but they would say that perhaps immigrants should try to integrate and don't try to cause any trouble. Or they would advocate monoculturism but say multiethnicity is fine.
My beliefs are ethno-states within Europe, Africa and Asia, but monoculturalism/multiethnicity within US, Canada, Australia, NZ. If that makes me far right on immigration with certain countries and center-right on immigration on other countries then I am fine with that distinction. It's important to note that I advocate social democratic (nordic model) economic policies, legalized weed and legalized prostitution that are seen as far leftist policies. If you want to label me as far right overall then that is your prerogative, but it only fits me on a few specific niche issues where as I lie elsewhere on the political spectrum in regards to other issues. Overall, I probably lean towards left-libertarian or centrist depending on one's viewpoint.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
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“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
Ne-IEE
6w7 sp/sx
6w7-9w1-4w5
Yeah, Germany tried that once, and it failed.
Also how is it even possible in principle? Surely, even if immigration is completely restricted, foreigners can still live in the country. And during that time, people might get into relationships or get married and have mixed-children. Or should the state forbid international marriages like North Korea does? What would happen to those children? Should they be deported or something?
@Raver I take it that you're opposed to identity politics when the left-wing is accused of doing it; not to put words in your mouth, but people in your camp will typically express sentiments along the line that identity politics is divisive and racist. Yet the notion that a whole country should preserve the purity of its ethnic identity is inescapably a form of racist identity politics. Please explain why holding these two views at the same time isn't inconsistent and incoherent.
I think he just means that he wants other countries to keep the demographics that they have, not that he wants ethnic cleansing. It's true that places like Germany haven't historically been places that take in a lot of immigrants like America has and that it doesn't seem like the cultures and economies of those countries can handle large amounts of new ethnic groups coming in and not assimilating like certain regions of American can. However, aside from Germans just taking all the refugees and putting them in the wrong places, I don't think there needs to be any policies to actively ban new groups from coming in. Refugees actually don't tend to like Germany and countries like that with very narrow and well-defined cultures because they just thought they'd move to Germany, get a cute little German house in the Alps with a German car, and otherwise live exactly the same way they would've in their home country under better conditions, which is not true.
I think he just recognizes that ethnicity isn't race so much as culture combined with ancestry and sees that as a shortcut to stop disastrous policies like bringing tons of refugees who don't even want to be there into European countries haphazardly, or George Soros buying out Hungary. I think having official ethic policies is a horrific idea but ethnicity can be a good guideline (not hard rule) in many cases and Raver isn't a career politician or a bad person so I'm not going to start throwing stones at him. Also, if you just demonize anything vaguely conservative, you are a far-left extremist by definition, though that's not necessarily a problem depending on demographics. There are some people I wouldn't expect to have any conservative views because of their environment and who also aren't bad people like the antifa groups are.
To be honest with you guys, I really don't want to debate immigration in this thread, I think we did more than enough of it in the last thread and I've gotten sick of it. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this as we'll likely never reach a consensus.
However, to answer the question @xerxe asked, I'm not going to deny that identity politics is happening on the right just like it is on the left and I'm going to leave it at that.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
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They are in the process. Only around 30% of their economy as of now is state owned compared to Cuba's 75%. Right wingers there had a fit as usual about handing over their goodies and attempted to sabotage the state. Transiting to socialism is always rough in the beginning but in the end is superior to capitalism.
I think populism from the left and right is fine as they are both useful in different ways. I understand that populism from the left and right have underlying identity politics tied into it. I support populism from both the left and the right, but not identity politics specifically even though identity politics is intertwined with populism at times. If populism was less about identity politics and more about unifying against wealthy business interests then it would be a lot more effective IMO.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
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It's more likely that these people are unaware of the reality of being an ethnic minority, for that they're an ethnic majority. Or ironically they don't notice any trouble for being blessed with living in a multi-ethnic or multicultural society.
The fact is that ethnic minorities exist in virtually any countries, and to say that there should be only one ethnicity within a country would be to deny their entire existence.
This whole thing seems more likely a case of "homogeneity envy" where they have fantasies that homogeneous societies are beautifully cohesive and conflict-free and everybody gets along in a beautiful utopia. Of course that isn't actually the case, and if that were so, then everybody would automatically agree with everything and there'd be no need for democracy or laws or the court or anything. The fact is that those artificial laws and institutions exist for the very purpose of resolving conflicts.
It's a simple fact that plurality is good for the society and progress. But conservative-minded people would rather foolishly sacrifice progress for apparent stability.
I'm not saying that unlimited immigration is the way to go, because that might destroy the culture. However gradual immigration is obviously the sane policy for any modern countries.
Supporting one or a few aspects of identity politics is not the same thing as supporting every single aspect of identity politics. I can support identity politics within the right by saying homogeneity for Europe, Asia and Africa. I can also support identity politics within the left by saying minorities deserve equal rights to everyone else. However, I can reject identity politics on the right if it means minorities should be treated as second class citizens. I can also reject identity politics on the left if it means minorities should be given special treatment superseding that of the majority. This isn't a black and white issue like you are trying to paint it as because it has a lot of nuances and grey in it.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
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An example of giving racial majorities special treatment is racial segregation like what happened in the US in the past. Controlling immigration on who you let in at your country is not an example of special treatment because they live outside of your country and are not citizens. Once they legally move into the country then they will be given the same treatment as everyone else living in that country.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
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6w7 sp/sx
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Social democracy is only feasible in Europe because of the profits companies in those countries are able to extract to from the cheap labour and resources from places like Africa. Providing all those social services while still being under capitalism's inefficient distribution of goods is immensely costly and relies on exploiting places outside the given country's borders. Social democracy is fine for the places able to have it but it is not a feasible option for the whole world, nor does it fix the core issues of capitalism.