Famous People and Celebrity Benchmarks

[jewels]

Random celebs. These are my guesses.

Sheryl Crow, ENFP?, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyXBKUf1OAA

Enrique Iglesias, ESFP? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcZVpaVn-eM

Shakira, ESFP?

Norah Jones, ISFP, INFP or ISTP? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnolN...elated&search=

The Killer's lead singer seems ENFJ, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVCkSMwaGGc

Brandi Carlile ESFP? ISFP? ENFP? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZYuA8evZio

[717495]

So I know Rick did something like this a while back, and posted it on Wikisocion. This one should be simpler as it will be more casual and within this thread. Though I have one rule since this is in thread form:

Please do not have arguments within this thread about the types of people. You can quote the typing from this thread and make an initiating declaration in a new or other thread, because I want people to be focused here on the task at hand. You may however make clarifications to your typings, ie. if someone in a different thread convinced you to do so. Just no arguments here please. Even if you disagree, don't make a declaration of disagreement, therein initiating an argumentative response.

So it's simple. You just fill out the following list with your ideas of (famous) people who fit as a benchmark. Remember, a benchmark is a person that fits the general characteristics of a certain type very well, and who many others of that type will more likely easily identify with, rather than identify with someone whose type is more hazy. Try as hard as you can to complete the list (eventually), associating all people with all 16 types, as it will make your understanding look more complete:

ILE -
SEI -
ESE -
LII -

SLE -
IEI -
EIE -
LSI -

SEE -
ILI -
LIE -
ESI -

IEE -
SLI -
LSE -
EII -

[Krig the Viking]

Are we sticking to real people, or are we allowing fictional characters?

[717495]

Well if you think a fictional character is a "benchmark" representation of a type, then sure. You may also post just one person for each type if you wish. I'm aware that it does take some thought to collect a list of good representations, even if its just thinking of one for each type, so take your time.

[Krig the Viking]

Oh, I've got a whole file on my computer of my own personal benchmarks. The main problem is weeding out the weaker typings and the people you all wouldn't know.

[Timeless]

Yes, show me some female SEIs por favor.

[Krig the Viking]

Okay, here's my list. I'm reasonably confident in all of these. Obviously, the Alpha Quadra list is a little bigger than the others.

ILE - Adam Savage, Weird Al Yankovich, Tim Burton, John Cleese, Jim Halpert, Shay Carl
SEI - John Candy, Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, Pam Beezly, Shay Carl's Wife (does she have a name?)
ESE - Kristen Bell, Allison Mack, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Bill Clinton, Eddie Murphy, Robin Williams, Bill Cosby, Keira Knightley, Adrien Brody, Michael Palin, Claudia Black, David Boreanaz
LII - Eric Idle, Michael Shanks, Emily Deschanel, Zachary Quinto, Fitzwilliam Darcy, Leonard Nimoy

SLE - Megan Fox, Josh Holloway
IEI - Andy Kaufman, Marilyn Monroe,
EIE - Oprah Winfrey, Bono, Salvador Dali, David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Ronald Reagan
LSI - Christian Bale, Hillary Clinton, Gina Torres, Michael Jordon

SEE - Rosie Perez
ILI - Woody Allen
LIE - Bill O'Reilly
ESI - Sharona Fleming (Monk)

IEE - Michael J. Fox, Wayne Brady,
SLI - Harrison Ford, Richard Dean Anderson, Mark Harmon, Red Green, Humphry Bogart,
LSE - Arnold Schwarzenegger,
EII - David Duchovny, Richard Gere, Jeremy Irons, Liam Neeson

[Marie84]

Pretty much agree with Huginn and Krig so I won't add any of theirs


ILE - Tina Fey, Ellen Page, Bill Maher, Albert Einstein
SEI - Ray Romano, Taylor Swift, Josh Groban
ESE - Buddy Valastro, Kelly Clarkson, Nia Vardalos
LII - Thomas More, Carry Anne Moss, Nicole Kidman

SLE - Madonna, Winston Churchill, Jimmy Kimmel
IEI - Arthur Rimbaud, Leona Lewis, Gwyneth Paltrow, Edgar Allan Poe
EIE - Jane Fonda, Charlize Theron, Martin Luther King
LSI - Russel Crowe

SEE - Elizabeth Taylor, Scarlett Johanson, Gerard Butler
ILI - Natalie Portman, Steven Soderbergh, David Lynch
LIE - Julia Roberts, C.S. Lewis, Conan O'Brien
ESI - Meg Ryan, Christopher Nolan, Kate Winslet

IEE - Rachel McAdams, Elijah Wood
SLI - Wayne Gretzky, Spencer Tracy, Grace Kelly, Steve McQueen
LSE - John Wayne, Mariska Hargitay, Aaron Eckhart, Cindy Crawford
EII - Matthew Broderick, Gail Russell

[Jarno]

ILE - Einstein
SEI -
ESE -
LII - Carl Jung

SLE - Mike Tyson, Madonna
IEI - Femke Halsema
EIE - Oprah Winfrey, Gordon Ramsay
LSI - Peter R de Vries

SEE - Elvis Presley
ILI - Warren Buffet, John Travolta
LIE - Bill Gates
ESI -

IEE -
SLI -
LSE - Arnold Schwarzenegger
EII -

[Azeroffs]

I think this thread deserves a sticky, or maybe create a locked thread which we could just have people that everyone/most people agree on.

[somavision]

I've included ones that other people have doen that I agree very strongly on, but left some where I agree with them, although I havn't looked into the person enough to be very sure.

ILE - Tim Burton
SEI - Pedro Almodóvar
ESE - Nigella Lawson
LII - Mark Mothersbaugh, David Byrne

SLE - Mike Tyson, Madonna, Idi Amin, Johnny Knoxville
IEI - Andy Warhol, Adam Sandler
EIE - Tom Cruise, Oprah Winfrey
LSI - Russel Crowe, Christopher Langan

SEE - Lady Gaga, Sylvester Stallone
ILI -
LIE -
ESI -

IEE - Richard Ayoade, Aldous Huxley, Dom Joly, Sacha Baron Cohen, Kylie Minogue
SLI - Harrison Ford, Grace Kelly, Ian Hislop
LSE - Gregory Peck, Arnold Schwarzenegger
EII - Carl Rogers, Jeremy Irons, Louis Theroux, David Duchovny

I don't know what Gamma's are.

[Morcheeba]

Tom Cruise is in no way an EIE, he's ESE. And a benchmark no less? And everyone knows that EIE's can't stand Oprah, so let's leave her off the list. You can keep Jane Fonda, Salvador Dali, and Freddy Mercury.

[717495]

Even if you disagree, don't make a declaration of disagreement, therein initiating an argumentative response.

+

Tom Cruise is in no way an EIE, he's ESE. And a benchmark no less? And everyone knows that EIE's can't stand Oprah, so let's leave her off the list. You can keep Jane Fonda, Salvador Dali, and Freddy Mercury.

=

Tom Cruise is in no way an EIE, he's ESE. And a benchmark no less? And everyone knows that EIE's can't stand Oprah, so let's leave her off the list. You can keep Jane Fonda, Salvador Dali, and Freddy Mercury.

[Jarno]

And everyone knows that EIE's can't stand Oprah

But they do like ******?

[silverchris9]

Let's talk about some extremely obvious representatives of certain types, fictional or real-life:

Daria-ILI
Keats, Shelley, Yeats-IEI
Michael Jackson-Beta NF (I think IEI, but he's pretty obvious at least with the beta NF-ness)
That character Michael Douglass plays in Wall Street-SLE
Bender from The Breakfast Club-SLE
Claude Frollo-LII
Einstein-ILE
Kant-LII

Any others?

[Crispy]

Claude Frollo-LII

Wow this guy loves alchemy and gypsie-rape as much as I do.

[silverchris9]

Wow this guy loves alchemy and gypsie-rape as much as I do.

Incredible.

[Krig the Viking]

I agree with the ones you posted (other than Daria, Keats, Shelly, and Yeats, who I don't know enough about to tell either way).

Here's some that come to mind:

Doc Brown (Back to the Future) - ILE
Adam Savage - ILE
Weird Al Yankovich - ILE
Fitzwilliam Darcy (Pride and Prejudice) - LII

[xerx]

Antonio Salieri (Amadeus) - LII

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[FDG]

Richard Feynman - ILE
Baron Munchhausen - LIE

Feyman is a stereotypical LIE...

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Marie84]

The Russian Socionics type representatives haven't really been contested, except for maybe Napoleon and Robespierre whose type has been debated (that I've seen at least).
So I suppose they'd be safe to use as benchmarks

Real people
Jack London - LIE
Victor Hugo- ESE
Georgy Zhukov- SLE
Aldous Huxley- IEE
Maxim Gorky- LSI
Theodore Dreiser- ESI
Fyodor Dostoyevsky- EII
Jean Gabin- SLI
Alexandre Dumas- SEI
Honoré de Balzac- ILI
Sergei Yesenin- IEI

Fictional
Don Quixote- ILE
Stirlitz & Sherlock Holmes- LSE
Dr. Watson- EII
Hamlet- EIE

I'll post my own later on maybe...

[UDP]

Mr Rochester - LSE (from Jane Eyre)
Jane Eyre - EII

[silverchris9]

The Russian Socionics type representatives haven't really been contested, except for maybe Napoleon and Robespierre whose type has been debated (that I've seen at least).
So I suppose they'd be safe to use as benchmarks

Real people
Jack London - LIE
Victor Hugo- ESE
Georgy Zhukov- SLE
Aldous Huxley- IEE
Maxim Gorky- LSI
Theodore Dreiser- ESI
Fyodor Dostoyevsky- EII
Jean Gabin- SLI
Alexandre Dumas- SEI
Honoré de Balzac- ILI
Sergei Yesenin- IEI

Fictional
Don Quixote- ILE
Stirlitz & Sherlock Holmes- LSE
Dr. Watson- EII
Hamlet- EIE

I'll post my own later on maybe...

eh... I totally buy Balzac as ILI, but I don't buy Victor Hugo as anything other than an Ni-ego, and certainly not Ni-polr. I mean, I'm sure there are aspects of Hugo that typify the ESE, in sort of an external way... but he's unquestionably an Ni-ego, and almost as unquestionably beta. EIE is a far better typing for him. Also Hamlet isn't exactly right... but if Hamlet had a type, it would be EIE.

I want to point out that I'm not faulting the Russian socionics people as socionics people--I'm just disagreeing with their readings of literature as an English major. I think they missed some important things about both Hamlet and Hugo (and obvious things in the case of Hugo). Now, that said, obviously there are things about Hugo that are emblematic of ESE, and clearly Hamlet (if you read him as the classic Colridgean "man who thought too much") needs a swift Se kick in the pants (maybe). But I think when you explore these people in their totality, a different picture emerges.

My 2 cents.

[Sol]

obvious for one is not so for other

[xerx]

Don Quixote- ILE

Quite a few (in Gulenko's school) Russians think Don Quixote is EIE. The fact that so many EIEs mistype as ILEs might be related to it.

[xerx]

Achilles - IEI (I know you think he's SLE)

I think he's SEE and Agamemnon may be EIE.

[Beautiful sky]

Quite a few (in Gulenko's school) Russians think Don Quixote is EIE. The fact that so many EIEs mistype as ILEs might be related to it.

Don in Russia is ILE
Hamlet is EIE

[Gilly]

I think he's SEE and Agamemnon may be EIE.

Yes to Agamemnon as EIE; Achilles could probably be taken as either Se dominant but IME the Myrmidons' mentality of tight exclusivity, unquestioning loyalty and aloof autonomy seems like a typical manifestation of Beta irrational Aristocracy.

[Mattie]

Yes to Agamemnon as EIE; Achilles could probably be taken as either Se dominant but IME the Myrmidons' mentality of tight exclusivity, unquestioning loyalty and aloof autonomy seems like a typical manifestation of Beta irrational Aristocracy.

I don't really like fictional benchmarks, but I did just read through the Iliad and Odyssey, and had posted some guesses for fun in another thread that seemed to have died before I got there, so I thought I'd post them here.

Achilles: SeTi
Agamemnon: TeNi (Though, now that you mention it, FeNi doesn't seem too far-fetched)
Ajax: SiTe
Diomedes: TiSe
Hector: FiSe
Helen: FeNi?
Menelaus: SeFi
Nestor: NiFe
Odysseus: NiTe
Paris: SiFe
Patroclus: TiSe?

[Gilly]

Odysseus is a pretty classic LIE. Hector I'd lean Delta, maybe LSE; he's sort of the classic golden child of their society. Paris is probably SiFe; makes sense as Hector's supervisee. Helen is definitely either EII or IEI if you ask me. Patroclus is probably a pretty archetypal IEI. IMO Menelaus (SLE) and Agammemnon (EIE) are a classic Beta Extrovert pair: territorial, instigative, uncompromising.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Mattie]

look.to.the.sky: did you reach that conclusion yourself, that Odysseus is an LIE, or did you read it somewhere by chance?

I said that he was NiTe, not TeNi. I don't put a lot of stock into typing fictional characters since they are completely under the control of an other, not working mind of their own. It was more for fun than to find models or archetypes, which is what this topic is for, but I figured I could get away with a small thread-jacking

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Mattie]

Ah sorry, I misread.
So, there's a fashion to type Odysseus as an LIE "because Expat said so" (see Gilly's post), this is absurd and should get out of people's minds, because there is an infinite number of arguments against it.

I don't think TeNi is ridiculous enough to be thrown out, and I understand that you are sensitive to appeals to authority when people state their opinions, but this might not be the case. I proposed NiTe because I felt he he was more active with his than he was with anything else, to me signalling -creative. If someone suggested SiTe, I wouldn't completely throw it out of the window either, though it seems unlikely. When reading the Odyssey, I felt Odysseus was fixed on , wanting to receive it and have it observed by others. The / presence with him seemed too active to be in leading/suggestive positions respectfully. I wouldn't make any claims for any of these characters to be givens or models of any type, but it's fun to think about since mythology is the root of all our archetypes.

[silverchris9]

Yes to Agamemnon as EIE; Achilles could probably be taken as either Se dominant but IME the Myrmidons' mentality of tight exclusivity, unquestioning loyalty and aloof autonomy seems like a typical manifestation of Beta irrational Aristocracy.

My reasoning for going LIE over EIE for Agamemnon is mostly based on the scene (in Book 3 or 4 I think) in which Zeus sends him a dream or something and he emotionally overreacts and when he tries to encourage the people, he only succeeds in panicking them, which seems like Fe fail to me. Also, it seems like he fails to provide Achilles with Fe (in Book 1), but now that I think about it, that could be stubbornness rather than not knowing how to do so.

Also, if you consider Aeschylus' Oresteia (granted, not the Iliad, not even Homer), in that one, Agamemnon is obviously Fe-non-valuing.

Agreed that Achilles works as either Se dominant, and to the Myrmidon analysis. I'd add that his complaint against Agamemnon really seems like Fe-seeking over offended Fi, and that Athena's advice about not killing Agamemnon seems like a sort of archetypal scene of Ni advising Se (insofar as it is consequence based, not morality based). Athena seems ILI.

Why IEI/EII for Helen? I'd never guess EII for her; I've always thought Alpha SF.

Look.to.the.sky, great point on Hector. ESI fits perfectly for him. And I also hesitate about typing fictional characters, but a) these characters are largely archetypal and are therefore ripe, imo, for typing archetypally (what sorts of people are these, socionically and otherwise), and b) great literature, especially great representative/objective literature, has a great capacity to accurately render human beings, and those accurate renderings presumably include socionics type. So I'd be much less cautious about typing Hector and Achilles than, say, Grey's Anatomy characters (because they just randomly change their personalities based on the needs of the plot for the week. Ugh). Also, Helen and Paris are both Alpha SFs, imo. I'd go with SEI for Paris, for sure. I think ESE for Helen over EIE, but both make sense. Also, my literary socionics thread has never really been alive or dead; I just use it as a repository of my socionics-related thoughts about literature or literature-related thoughts about socionics (same thing?).

[Marie84]

eh... I totally buy Balzac as ILI, but I don't buy Victor Hugo as anything other than an Ni-ego, and certainly not Ni-polr. I mean, I'm sure there are aspects of Hugo that typify the ESE, in sort of an external way... but he's unquestionably an Ni-ego, and almost as unquestionably beta. EIE is a far better typing for him. Also Hamlet isn't exactly right... but if Hamlet had a type, it would be EIE.

I want to point out that I'm not faulting the Russian socionics people as socionics people--I'm just disagreeing with their readings of literature as an English major. I think they missed some important things about both Hamlet and Hugo (and obvious things in the case of Hugo). Now, that said, obviously there are things about Hugo that are emblematic of ESE, and clearly Hamlet (if you read him as the classic Colridgean "man who thought too much") needs a swift Se kick in the pants (maybe). But I think when you explore these people in their totality, a different picture emerges.

My 2 cents.

To be honest I don't have a lot of in-depth knowledge about all the Russian Socionics type archetypes to argue for or against, so I suppose it's possible that Hugo was an EIE

[FDG]

What? Anglo-Saxon people can't properly understand/interpret Greek literature. So probably Pinocchio is the only one allowed to be right in this (rather unique) case.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request