I understand your frustrations. It’s certainly a lot of work and management for the ethical types but also the ethical types are understanding and patient so it’s a good exchange.Originally Posted by Finaplex
I understand your frustrations. It’s certainly a lot of work and management for the ethical types but also the ethical types are understanding and patient so it’s a good exchange.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
You would have to be a fucking Saint to put up with LSEs.
HahaYou would have to be a fucking Saint to put up with LSEs.
I am patient. I love people. I don’t hold onto being upset. I move on from frustrations easily. I value the bond more than some silly words no matter how meaningful words have an impact on others. To me each person is unique and no one can help it.
One has to be a saint to deal with ILI not LSE
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I wonder
Do you joke?
What sort of humor do you find interesting?
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
The kind that makes me laugh.
In rural areas, I think you see this because they learn it from their parents and paternalism is kind of the "cool thing." They may have a thin veneer of some biblical or personal reason for this, but most of them are too disconnected from the medieval thinking that spawned this to believe in any sense beyond a sort of loyalty to their clan.
Betas are most homophobic? I thought Betas were also the ones most likely to be SJWs that fight for gay rights. Perhaps Betas just shine the most compared to the other quadras so you notice a homophobic Beta more than the other ones.
But I think it's the opposite. Delta is the quadra most likely known for conservative Christianity and there are a lot of homophobic str8 male LSEs wearing business suits and tacky cowboy hats lol. It's true many IEEs stick up for gay rights....but then they secretly laugh at the gay guy not being able to play sports well with their SLI/LSE family members.
In the purest and rawest way, I agree that Gammas are the least likely to be homophobic and just not give a shit either way if somebody is gay or not. That's kind of the highest ideal, it's a non-issue as somebody having blue eyes or being left-handed.
I'm probably heterophobic in the sense that I don't feel like I fit in well with typical str8 bar culture. Not that I always feel at home in some gay bar with a corny rainbow flag but if I'm being honest with myself, yeah I'd most likely fit in there better than I would a str8 people bar. And the str8 people I do tend to get along with are the uppity liberal ones from colleges. I'm pretty on the fence about the SJW thing but 97% of the time I would get along with a 'SJW' more better than I would some homophobic redneck dude. I've noticed women who are like Kim Davis giving me dirty looks when I go to Wal-Mart lol. But I think this conflict is interesting.
I'm probably anthropophobic then, lol.
Anyway, I find that people should be extra careful for not mixing up phobia, philia, and hate.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Blegh.
Straight people are gross.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Ooh @Kim have you seen Pose on Netflix? I think you would like it a lot, it's about gay and trans people of color living in the 80s during the heights of the AIDS crisis. I just finished the season.
I might make a post about it.
That looks great! Thank you!
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
I don't blame people forattitudes that they have because they were never challenged.
Yeah I grew up in a small shitty rednecky town too. I would ideally like to live somewhere more urban and hip and gay- as cliche as that sounds. Maybe other redneck gay guys would like it here, but... I was happier living a more liberal city.
I remember complaining about being bullied or harrassed growing up, and it was always my fault for 'being the fag' and not their fault for being assholes. Even many therapists I had tried to spin it like that. I wasn't trying to be their friend enough, or trying to be 'cool' enough. But I was never into guns or doucebag str8 boy rap music. /shrug =D
But a few months ago, I stalked one of my bully's facebook pages out of curiosity- and he said how guilty he felt and he knew he was a piece of shit, and how his girlfriend 'made him a better person.' I think something probably happened where the hate he had caught up with him. So I think part of him knew what he did was wrong... and it's not just about boys like him, but the authority structures of the world that enable and protect that kind of thing. That is why Trump is so dangerous of course. It's not about Trump, but about how he casts a buff spell on every white redneck str8 moron in a 50,000 mile radius etc.
I see many rainbow pride flags in my town now, and although it's rednecky and white trash-like - it's also really gay friendly now on top it for the most part. But it all feels too little, too late for me personally- that's why I'm still bitter and why I won't give up the fight either. I needed this humanitarian feel-good crap when I was a bullied, insecure and horribly depressed gay teenager in grade school and high school who didn't want to be gay. I didn't get 'it's okay to be gay' until I was 17- but I needed it the most when I was 13. People have this fear and paranoia bout 'sexualizing' kids that age but the thing is, being gay of course is more than the sex. It's the culture, the lifestyle, the way of life, the attractions.
Similar to when you talked crap about Eckhart Tolle for his appearance. I remember.
Stop projecting, BnD.
EII-INFj / INFP / Strong E4 and 9 energy / Melancholic-Phlegmatic / Musical-Intrapersonal-Spatial / Kinky-Sensual
On the flip side, which types are likeliest to be gay?
Not type relatedOn the flip side, which types are likeliest to be gay?
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
ESI men perhaps?On the flip side, which types are likeliest to be gay?
You sound kind of overly harsh/bitter when you talk about the Beta scheming thing but I think you are spot on. I am a Beta P but I find myself scheming like that often. LoL I mostly do it though if I feel trapped inside a Delta organization and the only way out is for me to manipulate others. As if I used honesty or anything non-scheming/obsequious, I'd just make things worse for myself. So we Betas can be like that for good reasons.This applies more to Beta Js but still.
Pretty sure homophobia, like racism, has more to do with ignorance more than anything.
The trouble is that you can make any kind of correlations. You can say "I know someone who eats oranges a lot that are homophobic. It must be that eating oranges make you homophobic."
People are barking up the wrong tree when they go "It's the Betas! No, it's the Deltas!" quadra warz which is ironically just yet another stereotyping and prejudices. It doesn't have anything to do with the root of homophobia or any other prejudices.
Prejudices are ideas, and they're not necessarily rooted in persons. Prejudices can be created, prejudices can be transfered to others. And prejudices can be ended with the right ideas.
They will never be ended though. There will always be stupid people around believing in them and unwilling to change. They can be reduced, but never fully eliminated, like religion. Bad ideas spread faster than people can learn their way out of them. Many people don't want to take the time. They are lazy, indifferent, create counter systems of thought, like anti-intellectualism for example, to resist reducing their own ignorance.
Probably, and stereotypes might sometimes be rational or necessary.
However, I can think of two situations where people could be prejudiced:
1) is "Well all the gay people that I've met so far have been bad. That's been my experience, so who are you to tell me otherwise?".
and 2) is "Well I don't know any gay people, but I'm sure that they're bad."
1) is clearly lacking in imagination, but 2) seems to be entirely made up of imagination. However on a closer inspection, 2) is selective imagination, and it does not consider any other alternatives. One can imagine, for example "Well if gay people can be bad, then can they also be good?" "How can ALL gay people be bad? There must be others that are good. If they were bad, then what causes them to be bad?" etc, etc. Curiosity is what dispels prejudices.
So I think that prejudices are conclusions that you make when you don't consider any alternatives to incomplete information. You might jump to a conclusion and say "That's Ne PoLR!", but I don't think so. I think that almost anyone has the capability to rationally think up of an alternative. It's just that for some people, it might be difficult to think up of different things and different scenarios, as that takes a lot of effort.
The fact that someone connects such a difficult sociological issue with socionics rises a lot of questions. This, obviously, has nothing to do with socionics but with general openness, empathy, IQ and the background, upbringing of the person. It's really disturbing that someone would connect this with a type, homophobia is not a joke and is not related to typology whatsoever. It's a deep rooted important and complex issue of the modern world that needs to be solved by means of empathy and education. My theory is... once, if every single person had to come in a contact with someone from minorities, they would behave differently to them. I think it should be mandatory for high school students to help and meet people from minorities who have been bullied for their race, orientation or other differences, to see what it really feels like to be prejudged and humiliated for being who you really are. This thread itself is a manifestation of ignorance and mockery of something, that should NOT exist in the 21st century.
"really disturbing someone would connect this with type" - That's how we learn sometimes. Asking questions no one wants to ask. Thinking thoughts that are forbidden. Doesn't mean they're "right" in any way. But it's necessary sometimes.
You are concluding without evidence. Bring examples and reasoning for why Socionics has "nothing" to do with it please. Cause that is what we do in the 21st century. Openly discuss ideas and reason.
We know as a fact that Socionics can predict parameters such as empathy and general openness to a good extent.
And no. Homophobia is not a joke. Nobody said it was. Socionics isn't a joke either
Yes she was concluding without evidence but her intuition on the matter is true, a lot of reductive approaches to socionics that generate easy answers aren't rooted in fact but rather anecdotal conjectures.
The more cultures one get's exposed to the more it becomes apparent that some values aren't type related at all. Furthermore, the more you honesty try to type people, the more you'll honestly realise that shoehorning labels doesn't work (to many contradictions and overlaps) - unless you personally want to retard your socionics.
You should always consider the possibility that something could be wrong. If you don't, then ironically it's dogmatism which is what creates prejudiced thinking.
Anyway, if you're saying that homophobia is determined by Socionics types, then you're essentially saying that homophobia is genetically determined, or at least it's set in stone since birth. Then you're going to have to explain how the mechanism of it causes homophobic behavior. If it is genetic, then which gene causes it? And so on and so forth.
Also it's not much use saying that you have predicted something, and then it has accurately predicted! Because then it could have just been a lucky guess, or you're not setting the boundary for the timeline for when the person will supposedly become homophobic. I'm sure that you're also not counting all the times when the prediction has been wrong and the person was not homophobic.
Anyway, I don't think that it's a good idea to think that something like homophobia is set in stones and is deterministic. I would agree with @Freya's general sentiment that it has mostly to do with education. It's mostly something that happens in society after birth, which can't be determined by birth.
i want to provide feedback here
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Upbringing involves the era when you live too, the people you meet on your road, not just your family and cultural environment. I was raised a catholic, never had a problem with gay couples, contraceptives, abortions, like most catholics do, that's all due to the millennial influences I've been breathing. My ESI muslim ex was born and raised in London, he for sure incorporated the muslim strict environment as well as the extreme openness of the city, all in his upbringing.
True. It depends how willing you are to expose yourself to new things as well as the millennial, because in every era there are things which can be brought to light for the sake of humanity.
A Muslim ESI who had also incorporated London openness? That would be an interesting paradox... Can you maybe say what it was like?
Because I have also seen this paradox before. ESI is attracted to the modern way of things and new experiences and diversity, but will try to stay faithful to their childhood family and beliefs as well, it can be really confusing in their relationships as adults. (If bringing up things about your ex is too unpleasant feel free to ignore)
@Zero, no problem at all. He's one of the people I love and care for the most, no bad feelings left, we just came to the realization we were not going in the same directions, our own problems brought us together initially, he's been my shoulder for some 2 years, but after we recovered a bit, eventually we figured out we were better without each other.
He suffered from some mental illness, panic attacks and some hallucinating states..., I think it's even due to the contrast you highlight. He was veeeery attached to his home environment, to his mum (he would listen to everything she suggested), he loves his lil nephews more than anything else, and in the same time he was all about discovering the newest trends in what he liked, a big passion of his, and get his hands dirty doing illegal stuff... he was an atheist though, I mean, I'd often mock his islamic background, and he would be like "just let's sit here with my Buddha statue and candles and meditate", lol. He was not religious, didn't care of that, yet had the best insights into humans I've ever seen in a guy. He'd point out the core of someone in 2 words (not always flattering)... that was a bit shallow to me, but he was always right. He was very judgemental too, but I always thought it was for fun more than anything, in fact most of his "harshest" opinions changed after time... and he's never been a homophobic, in fact he had some gay tendencies himself, which I found very charming
Hm... Dunno about that. My LSI mom would be much more likely to point out that regardless of how she personally views homosexual people, the fact is that people who live in the country we live in wouldn't easily if ever accept such things given how extremely religious and still quite 'conservative/patriarchal' most people around here are, while my ESE father especially given that I tend to speak much more supportive of LGBTI+ people, would be more likely to hide his judgements on the matter even if he personally is much more religious and tends to follow 'common sense' of his culture much more.
Also, in my uni friend group, one that is often most troubled by people scorning others for the labels attached to them is IEI friend who is at this point only tangentially tied to the group (mostly because she gets along with me and the ESI friend -who himself is gay-) so I can see that she would find it most pointless that what is it the matter to anyone that who loves who. Also, most homophobic and in general making Nazi 'jokes' person that became too toxic (and had other stuff going on) that he got kicked out of the friend group was an ILI, while aforementioned ESI friend is a pretty open about it gay guy, so hm.
Dogmatic usage of a concept against groups of people to speak out and vent about one’s experience suffering under dogmatism against groups of people.Making leaps and bounds here people!
I think it might be particularly likely for some types who are typically “straight” in their type’s gender and “strict/conservative”, if they were raised in an unprogressive area. Like sure, I could easily see a bi-curious SLE male in a socially precarious situation in a super strict Muslim community using the popular opinion of homophobia in that situation to leverage themselves. That’s sort of extreme though and similar toxic dynamics would be going on with other types. I’ve personally experienced homophobia from all quadras. If you’re bitter and venting here though, I get it. (: Just kidding, it’s actually just a bad use of butthurtness. Pun exactly intended.
Certain types are more likely to be in your face, articulate harsh stances, get into active conflict about them... on top of that more likely to be motivated to get to the top of power structures that happen to enforce these kinds of positions (among other things). Doesn't mean Betas are more or more likely to be homophobic, all we can really say it that they're going to be louder about when they are.
I'm just now reading an article about how a big reason why gay people were accepted so fast in the mainstream, is that gayness isn't inherently visible at first like being black or overweight or disabled or other 'minority status' so people come to know the person first THEN they realized they were gay. They already liked them (or not) in the first place, and simply being gay doesn't change that for most people.
But this isn't always true, of course. (Why are all news articles so Delta IEE-ish?) When I was younger especially, I was a very 'obviously ******y fag gay' and you knew it instantly you saw me - or knew it the moment I tried to play team sports or try to talk about cars. People that lived all the way in Alert, Canada could tell I was fag. And I could never be like the popular macho gay that was subtle about being gay, I was just always an obnoxious in your face ****** like the Beta I am =D. I think gayness does have an external objectivity to it in a sense, it's just not really always about internal feelings. With some men you clearly know right away the millisecond you meet them, and some you don't. Some gay guys have faggy voices, others sound just like an average manly man you would meet anywhere. This is why there is tops and bottoms.
In fact, I have gotten this a lot in my life 'I don't like bnd because he's gay, I don't like him because he's TOO gay.' Yeah, I am definitely too gay.Guilty as charged. But some guys are over the top gay - other people just need to deal. They need love and acceptance as much as the cool, subtler ones. The over the top gays are a big reason why the macho, more cool guys are accepted anyway!
I recently watched a documentary about Stonewall and a group of white gay men who did not want to be associated with gay people of color and trans people. White privilege still goes a long way.I'm just now reading an article about how a big reason why gay people were accepted so fast in the mainstream, is that gayness isn't inherently visible at first like being black or overweight or disabled or other 'minority status' so people come to know the person first THEN they realized they were gay. They already liked them (or not) in the first place, and simply being gay doesn't change that for most people.
But this isn't always true, of course. (Why are all news articles so Delta IEE-ish?) When I was younger especially, I was a very 'obviously ******y fag gay' and you knew it instantly you saw me - or knew it the moment I tried to play team sports or try to talk about cars. People that lived all the way in Alert, Canada could tell I was fag. And I could never be like the popular macho gay that was subtle about being gay, I was just always an obnoxious in your face ****** like the Beta I am =D. I think gayness does have an external objectivity to it in a sense, it's just not really always about internal feelings. With some men you clearly know right away the millisecond you meet them, and some you don't. Some gay guys have faggy voices, others sound just like an average manly man you would meet anywhere. This is why there is tops and bottoms.
In fact, I have gotten this a lot in my life 'I don't like bnd because he's gay, I don't like him because he's TOO gay.' Yeah, I am definitely too gay.
Also, it's astounding how afraid people are when their gender perceptions are challenged. It's like they go into panic mode: OMG I CAN'T TELL WHAT GENDER YOU ARE OR IF YOU ARE GAY OR STRAIGHT OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING DOWN! NATURE DID NOT WANT THIS YOU HAVE A PENIS YOU CANNOT DO THIS PLEASE THINK OF YOUR PENIS!
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
That makes sense.I'm just now reading an article about how a big reason why gay people were accepted so fast in the mainstream, is that gayness isn't inherently visible at first like being black or overweight or disabled or other 'minority status' so people come to know the person first THEN they realized they were gay. They already liked them (or not) in the first place, and simply being gay doesn't change that for most people.
But this isn't always true, of course. (Why are all news articles so Delta IEE-ish?) When I was younger especially, I was a very 'obviously ******y fag gay' and you knew it instantly you saw me - or knew it the moment I tried to play team sports or try to talk about cars. People that lived all the way in Alert, Canada could tell I was fag. And I could never be like the popular macho gay that was subtle about being gay, I was just always an obnoxious in your face ****** like the Beta I am =D. I think gayness does have an external objectivity to it in a sense, it's just not really always about internal feelings. With some men you clearly know right away the millisecond you meet them, and some you don't. Some gay guys have faggy voices, others sound just like an average manly man you would meet anywhere. This is why there is tops and bottoms.
In fact, I have gotten this a lot in my life 'I don't like bnd because he's gay, I don't like him because he's TOO gay.' Yeah, I am definitely too gay.
When I was younger I watched a series called "Queer as Folk US" and in it there was a Justin Taylor who I now know was IEI. He was also "in your face faggy fag gay". And his lover Brian Kinney was SLE.
What you explained now gave strong flashbacks of the Tv series to me.
@Kim
I think everybody is gross. I don't really think gay people hold the higher moral ground either at all, but I do think a big part of the 'movement' has been proving the obvious lie that straight people do not have moral authority either. Most discrimination against gays has been done in the 'when people do shitty things in life, they don't think they're not righteous- they think they have the right' thing. If I'm a lustful pedophiliac demon with horns, then my only destiny is to have an anvil fall on my head, right? My only right in life is then to be terminated, because it's the RIGHT thing to do. That's why people who are so concerned they are in the 'right' are often so damn scary.
The IEE I know that does this, I don't think she does it maliciously either at all so I'm not that offended by it. But you're right, probably not quadra related...
*hugs Kim*
Everybody is kind of gross, but straight people are more gross. And white people. And Cis people.@Kim
I think everybody is gross. I don't really think gay people hold the higher moral ground either at all, but I do think a big part of the 'movement' has been proving the obvious lie that straight people do not have moral authority either. Most discrimination against gays has been done in the 'when people do shitty things in life, they don't think they're not righteous- they think they have the right' thing. If I'm a lustful pedophiliac demon with horns, then my only destiny is to have an anvil fall on my head, right? My only right in life is then to be terminated, because it's the RIGHT thing to do. That's why people who are so concerned they are in the 'right' are often so damn scary.
The IEE I know that does this, I don't think she does it maliciously either at all so I'm not that offended by it. But you're right, probably not quadra related...
*hugs Kim*
I am really trying to be as generous as you are, especially living in a conservative rural area. I don't blame people for
attitudes that they have because they were never challenged. But I have spent four years having conversations and trying to explain and really, the pervasive lack of basic decency and empathy is so frustrating. How is it not obvious that people who are different don't choose to be? How dense and self-absorbed can you be?
I really need to get out of here...
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
The term "homophobia" is just a made up ad hominem to shame and silence those who do not support homosexuality or the depravities of the LGBT community (even if they don't actually mind homosexuality in and of itself). The left's most used weapon is their use of shame tactics, which puts the Puritans to shame in it's magnitude.
Yeah they do it. Its basically a dinner bell for the idealists to come and save them from their stupidity. Funny when the idealists are basically the same way in a more subtle way.
I (along with many who believe it is wrong) believe the ACT of homosexuality is wrong; just like the ACT of murder, or the ACT of cheating, or the ACT of lying etc...
We aren’t saying we hate the PEOPLE, just the ACTION is unacceptable... And just because someone is born with a predisposed tendency makes it right.
Ex: If I was born with a predisposition to lie it doesn’t mean lying is right.
Many of you guys don’t understand that disagreement doesn’t necessarily equate to hate/homophobia.
^^^^^
This is Ti type rationalization so I’d imagine betas would be inaccurately labeled as “homophobic” plus the Se would make them more vocal about it vs weaker/undervalued Ti types have a tendency to be more emotional and intolerant of alternative views or speak up against it (like deltas that oppose it stay quiet about it)
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