Let's talk about Homophobia + Aristocracy and Democracy

[Zero]

It's an issue which has been on my mind for a long time. I don't identify as LGBTQI but it has always been interesting for me from a scientific and social point of view.
From my own observations democratic types are less sensitive about sexual preferences and differences, and the most homophobic people I have met were betas. Not unnecessary to point out that I was born and raised in an Islamic dictatorship, yet from a very young age was OK with such matters.
I think aristocratic types have more potential for being homophobic.

***might have mentioned it at some point in the past, so excuse me if I'm being repetitive, just making a comeback after a long time away from the forum.

[Adam Strange]

I think I once saw a Socionics definition of “Aristocracy” as being more willing to assign traits previously associated with a group to an individual, if they believe that an individual belongs in that group.

This seems to me to be prejudicial thinking, in the sense that it “pre-judges” a person by association, rather than taking that person as an individual.

In one sense, it is lazy thinking, and in another it is “quick and frequently accurate” thinking. If you see a tiger, it is probably a good thing to have some prejudices regarding its most likely behavior.

(Even though I am in a democratic Quadra, I initially use previous associations to pre-judge people. I do keep an open mind to new information, though, and so am always willing to modify my prejudices if facts or circumstances dictate.)

The problem that many minorities face is being associated with negative traits, since assigning negative traits to a group is an effective way to exclude that group from sharing in the resources of the majority group.

Trump does this all the time. He isn’t the President of the U.S., he is a divider of society, for the purpose of increasing the wealth of the established. What most people who support him don’t understand is that he doesn’t consider them to be in his own group. His actions make that abundantly clear, to those who aren’t blinded by their fear of losing status (and therefore access to resources) themselves.

All societies seem to create minority groups within themselves. Every country has them. The minorities fight back against this external labeling of themselves by attempting to rename themselves periodically. Negroes became blacks, who became African-Americans. This relabeling can help give the minority access to new considerations and new associations, but the real solution is to change the way that resources are allocated.

After all, ideally, you would not choose whether or not to feed and clothe your children based on their handedness ot hair color.

[Beautiful sky]

I’ve always had friends from all walks of life. Usually what attracts me is warmness. If someone is warm to me and understands my level of sensitivity they are mine to keep.

Yes I did attempt to befriend a gay guy with similar interests as myself at the Farmers market but he was on the sprawl and I was in his way. Some people need to be in a relationship to be happy.

Delta may make judgements and fun of people however that doesn’t equate to how they feel about individuals. They are more about what is theirs, as in their relationships and will proudly wear them.

[Zero]

I think I once saw a Socionics definition of “Aristocracy” as being more willing to assign traits previously associated with a group to an individual, if they believe that an individual belongs in that group.

This seems to me to be prejudicial thinking, in the sense that it “pre-judges” a person by association, rather than taking that person as an individual.

In one sense, it is lazy thinking, and in another it is “quick and frequently accurate” thinking. If you see a tiger, it is probably a good thing to have some prejudices regarding its most likely behavior.

(Even though I am in a democratic Quadra, I initially use previous associations to pre-judge people. I do keep an open mind to new information, though, and so am always willing to modify my prejudices if facts or circumstances dictate.)

The problem that many minorities face is being associated with negative traits, since assigning negative traits to a group is an effective way to exclude that group from sharing in the resources of the majority group.

Trump does this all the time. He isn’t the President of the U.S., he is a divider of society, for the purpose of increasing the wealth of the established. What most people who support him don’t understand is that he doesn’t consider them to be in his own group. His actions make that abundantly clear, to those who aren’t blinded by their fear of losing status (and therefore access to resources) themselves.

All societies seem to create minority groups within themselves. Every country has them. The minorities fight back against this external labeling of themselves by attempting to rename themselves periodically. Negroes became blacks, who became African-Americans. This relabeling can help give the minority access to new considerations and new associations, but the real solution is to change the way that resources are allocated.

After all, ideally, you would not choose whether or not to feed and clothe your children based on their handedness ot hair color.

the whole video can be related to the topic but just the part he points out at 7:15 (in case you don't want to listen to all of it)

[Zero]

I’ve always had friends from all walks of life. Usually what attracts me is warmness. If someone is warm to me and understands my level of sensitivity they are mine to keep.

Yes I did attempt to befriend a gay guy with similar interests as myself at the Farmers market but he was on the sprawl and I was in his way. Some people need to be in a relationship to be happy.

Delta may make judgements and fun of people however that doesn’t equate to how they feel about individuals. They are more about what is theirs, as in their relationships and will proudly wear them.

well I know EIIs who seem and maybe are ok with LGBTQI, because they believe in humanity, "the humanist", known as "dostoyevsky" who even tried to understand and believed in the humanity of murders, criminals, etc. The type's philosophy of existence perhaps is to bring more warmness into relations.

Still often EIIs have or agree with the aristocratic standpoints for example: ok love whoever you want, that doesn't harm humanity, but why are you also sucking marriage which is a tradition between a man and a woman into your own socio-cultural movement? I knew a bisexual EII once who was against gay marriage because it is a disgrace to traditions.

Also about

Delta may make judgements and fun of people however that doesn’t equate to how they feel about individuals. They are more about what is theirs, as in their relationships and will proudly wear them.

I think judging and making fun of people does equate to you causing trouble for them in the long run, therefore does say something about how you feel about them or how you will make them feel about themselves. But very true about Delta.

[Beautiful sky]

well I know EIIs who seem and maybe are ok with LGBTQI, because they believe in humanity, "the humanist", known as "dostoyevsky" who even tried to understand and believed in the humanity of murders, criminals, etc. The type's philosophy of existence perhaps is to bring more warmness into relations.

Still often EIIs have or agree with the aristocratic standpoints for example: ok love whoever you want, that doesn't harm humanity, but why are you also sucking marriage which is a tradition between a man and a woman into your own socio-cultural movement? I knew a bisexual EII once who was against gay marriage because it is a disgrace to traditions.

Also about
I think judging and making fun of people does equate to you causing trouble for them in the long run, therefore does say something about how you feel about them or how you will make them feel about themselves. But very true about Delta.

That’s possible that the EII was against traditions. But remember that EII battle shame and agonize over their flaws. Take a transexual EII who feels himself to be a man yet can not open up emotionally to his close relationships (parents).

My parents are Gamma irrational pair and they were often more traditional and unforgiving than I. I don’t think that they would ever accept anyone in the family that comes out as gay and my ILI mother may either attempt to sweep it under the rug, say “it’s shameful don’t talk about it” or would try to change your own views of yourself by many guilty manipulative tactics like convincing you to do things her way or the way that she sees them to be correct. Playing politics.

I think the level of acceptance in Delta comes from their culture (doesn’t everybody’s?” Certainly my ESI aunt (born in the 1940s) and I view human sexuality differently. She is certainly against having gay people in society. I think that the world without diversity is boring.

[Adam Strange]

"If God hates gay people, why does he keep making them?"

[Chae]

i remember one russian socionics article (might have been parfenov) branding beta as the most bigoted quadra 😅

personally i'd think... wouldn't beta rile the most for a social cause i.e. against oppression and discriminatory bias? it really depends on what group they are part of, though. what branch of historical ideology you belong to is everything in beta, that is what makes them aristocratic.

[Adam Strange]

Beta quadra may strive the hardest for social position, and social position is what gives you access to resources. But any person who is afraid of losing their social position can denigrate other people as being sub-human.

Here is an article from one of the most crowded countries on earth (and therefore, where resources for survival are most fought over): https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...olence/587041/

It is worthwhile to remember that Delta quadra is very concerned about respect and being respected, which is also a form of social position.

[Aramas]

It's an issue which has been on my mind for a long time. I don't identify as LGBTQI but it has always been interesting for me from a scientific and social point of view.
From my own observations democratic types are less sensitive about sexual preferences and differences, and the most homophobic people I have met were betas. Not unnecessary to point out that I was born and raised in an Islamic dictatorship, yet from a very young age was OK with such matters.
I think aristocratic types have more potential for being homophobic.

***might have mentioned it at some point in the past, so excuse me if I'm being repetitive, just making a comeback after a long time away from the forum.

Democrats and aristocrats have an equal capacity for homophobia. The Democratic quadras can at times have a very despotic mindset that outstrips the aristocrats and their shenanigans. Aristocrats are usually mindful of organizing and ordering competing factions without letting any one have all the control. Democrats on the other hand expect monolithic adherence to a singular entity. Look at France during the Reign of Terror period if you want to see Democratic quadras gone bad.

Oddly enough, you are correct, and I agree, that Betas in my experience are the most openly homophobic and aggressively against people who don't fit their norms. I can't understand why myself. What causes such a strong emotional reaction in these people? It's possible, though, that while Betas are the most obviously homophobic, other quadras have the same degree of homophobia, but aren't as combative with things they disagree with. Betas tend to have fairly strongly held principles and they get mean when they see other people not toeing the line with what they see as right.

I imagine that the Beta quadra just has a very reactive immune system. Anything that doesn't fit the plan or the vision must be exterminated to preserve the goal.

[Skepsis]

Men create(d) god(s) and religions surrounding them to control groups of people, especially for things pertaining to survival, like war and reproduction. Sin was one of those imaginary concepts that was attached to homosexuality because basically it doesn't lead to reproduction and heaven forbid, people enjoy orgasms and bodily pleasure with people they are attracted to. You are supposed to save yourself for the mind blowing existential orgasm known as heaven, or for an eternal existence of tranquility; take your pick. It is hard to control people who do what feels right and good to them on a personal level. It jeopardizes the hierarchy and authority.

[roger557]

All you need is love....

[Aramas]

Men create(d) god(s) and religions surrounding them to control groups of people, especially for things pertaining to survival, like war and reproduction. Sin was one of those imaginary concepts that was attached to homosexuality because basically it doesn't lead to reproduction and heaven forbid, people enjoy orgasms and bodily pleasure with people they are attracted to. You are supposed to save yourself for the mind blowing existential orgasm known as heaven, or for an eternal existence of tranquility; take your pick. It is hard to control people who do what feels right and good to them on a personal level. It jeopardizes the hierarchy and authority.

Basically, it's hard to centralize when people are doing what they want. Therefore obedience is the only true morality.

[Aramas]

Beta quadra may strive the hardest for social position, and social position is what gives you access to resources. But any person who is afraid of losing their social position can denigrate other people as being sub-human.

Here is an article from one of the most crowded countries on earth (and therefore, where resources for survival are most fought over): https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...olence/587041/

It is worthwhile to remember that Delta quadra is very concerned about respect and being respected, which is also a form of social position.

So in other words, you're saying that beta homophobia is just a way of jockeying for position by engaging in exclusive behavior. That makes a lot of sense. It didn't make much sense to me as a thing in itself. Some Betas are not homophobic at all and some are gay themselves. But homophobia as a method for reducing competition for positions in a hierarchy does make sense.

Respect isn't really a thing though. Everyone has a different set of behaviors they define as being respectful.

[Singu]

"In my experience, gay people have been X."
"In my experience, Betas have been X."

Honestly, how is it helpful to fight stereotypes with stereotypes? This is so idiotic that I wonder if people still have functioning brains.

The entire point of stereotypes is that it's based on your own limited observations, or lack thereof. It cannot, for instance, imagine that gay people could also be X, Y, Z... Because that's sort of an abstract imagination or abstract logical rules that's not based on any observations.

[Adam Strange]

So in other words, you're saying that beta homophobia is just a way of jockeying for position by engaging in exclusive behavior. That makes a lot of sense. It didn't make much sense to me as a thing in itself. Some Betas are not homophobic at all and some are gay themselves. But homophobia as a method for reducing competition for positions in a hierarchy does make sense.

Respect isn't really a thing though. Everyone has a different set of behaviors they define as being respectful.

The root of all conflict is competition for resources to propagate your DNA molecules at the expense of other propagators of different DNA molecules.

It is sometimes advantageous to form temporary alliances with other DNA molecules, but when push comes to shove, we are programmed to ensure that our code (and that of our offspring) survives.

Consequently, peace endures as long as the resources hold out.

I was surprised to learn that half the population thinks there will be a world war in the next ten years. This is totally unnecessary. We have plenty of stuff, and the potential exists to use it and distribute it more efficiently. Some billionaires might have to accept less, though.

Perhaps they could be persuaded to a more equitable distribution of resources if their choice was between "liberty, equality, fraternity" and the guillotine.

[The Reality Denialist]

"If God hates gay people, why does he keep making them?"

God is wavering between masochism and sadism.


I just don't care because all I know that I'm straight who has too low drive to even think about it. I think the world would find its peace if we stop procreating and ended up extinct but that is just me.

[Skepsis]

God is wavering between masochism and sadism.


I just don't care because all I know that I'm straight who has too low drive to even think about it. I think the world would find its peace if we stop procreating and ended up extinct but that is just me.

Only the Abrahamic "true" god. There are countless "gods" out there and many aren't as evil as this one.

[Skepsis]

It is the power of the largest monotheistic religions which has led to their ownership of all of the gods and making their god the only acceptable one. It even affects how we think about gods. Very few talk about the kind of god they believe in, it is biased by monotheism, the "one true god" and other means of thought control.

[Skepsis]

Basically, it's hard to centralize when people are doing what they want. Therefore obedience is the only true morality.

Only the morality of dogmatic belief systems. There are other forms of morality.

[Bento]

It's an issue which has been on my mind for a long time. I don't identify as LGBTQI but it has always been interesting for me from a scientific and social point of view.
From my own observations democratic types are less sensitive about sexual preferences and differences, and the most homophobic people I have met were betas. Not unnecessary to point out that I was born and raised in an Islamic dictatorship, yet from a very young age was OK with such matters.
I think aristocratic types have more potential for being homophobic.

***might have mentioned it at some point in the past, so excuse me if I'm being repetitive, just making a comeback after a long time away from the forum.

It depends on the upbringing, not on the sociotype or reinin dichotomy. Socionics is nice and all but useless when people try to apply it to complex matters like homophobia.
IME most alphas I've met are vegans but that does not mean that alphas are more likely to be vegan. It's a coincidence. Or if I try really hard: a correlation. But not a causation like alpha=>vegan

[Beautiful sky]

All you need is love....

I second this. Life is too short. Be who you are.

[Finaplex]

@ op, yup.

[Aramas]

The root of all conflict is competition for resources to propagate your DNA molecules at the expense of other propagators of different DNA molecules.

It is sometimes advantageous to form temporary alliances with other DNA molecules, but when push comes to shove, we are programmed to ensure that our code (and that of our offspring) survives.

Consequently, peace endures as long as the resources hold out.

I was surprised to learn that half the population thinks there will be a world war in the next ten years. This is totally unnecessary. We have plenty of stuff, and the potential exists to use it and distribute it more efficiently. Some billionaires might have to accept less, though.

Perhaps they could be persuaded to a more equitable distribution of resources if their choice was between "liberty, equality, fraternity" and the guillotine.

What if you don't want offspring?

[Tallmo]

I think most men are homophobic, whether they admit it or not. I am also slightly homophobic, although I do have gay friends.

It is natural to be homophobic if you are a man because masculinity is a lot about repressing your feminine side and projecting it onto women, so you don't really want to be too involved with feminine men, because they are not "real men", by this standard.

[Beautiful sky]

I recall driving somewhere far with an LSE friend a few years back and him mimicking the stereotypical gay and flamboyant gestures and me laughing at his antics and him saying “I have nothing against gay men, MY BUDDY is gay.” That is Delta ST for you. The NFS are “give me people to love on.” But if I were to hear them express negative and degrading comments I would react with moral inappropriateness. I would tell him “it’s rude, unkind, what if YOUR own child was gay would you behave in such a harmful manner?” I would come down hard like Judge Judy

[Adam Strange]

What if you don't want offspring?

@Aramas, two things.

One, your particular line of DNA will terminate. Your direct line has been reproducing for 4.5 billion years, but that's not to say it will continue to do so.

Two, you will probably die with lots of toys. (Kids are expensive, but in my own opinion, worth it.)

[Finaplex]

I recall driving somewhere far with an LSE friend a few years back and him mimicking the stereotypical gay and flamboyant gestures and me laughing at his antics and him saying “I have nothing against gay men, MY BUDDY is gay.” That is Delta ST for you. The NFS are “give me people to love on.” But if I were to hear them express negative and degrading comments I would react with moral inappropriateness. I would tell him “it’s rude, unkind, what if YOUR own child was gay would you behave in such a harmful manner?” I would come down hard like Judge Judy

Yeah this is why delta STs are annoying because they are always needing/wanting consciously or subconsciously these ethical corrections and I have no care to spend life doing this for them. I think this is how they relieve stress and deal with power and hierarchies. Its a way of mocking, yet at its heart not believing their own mocking. Joking, not joking. Sorry, not sorry.

[Finaplex]

I think most men are homophobic, whether they admit it or not. I am also slightly homophobic, although I do have gay friends.

It is natural to be homophobic if you are a man because masculinity is a lot about repressing your feminine side and projecting it onto women, so you don't really want to be too involved with feminine men, because they are not "real men", by this standard.

its not really a phobia, its stupid to be called a phobia. its more of a "ick" factor. Its icky to them and makes them uncomfortable. And almost a decade of being out I don't blame them. I actually don;t tell people because it turns into more of a hassle then its worth. I also cringe when I see people coming out on TV and what-not, because basically what you are doing is saying Hi I'm Jon and I like dick. Its not really anyone's business. The trouble is that when people are moving past the small talk phase in their time together you do need to start talking about your personal life and that is, at least for me, where the trouble starts.

The thing that gets me is when there is a very masculine man who is also gay, because then there is this potential threat that exists.

[Beautiful sky]

Yeah this is why delta STs are annoying because they are always needing/wanting consciously or subconsciously these ethical corrections and I have no care to spend life doing this for them. I think this is how they relieve stress and deal with power and hierarchies. Its a way of mocking, yet at its heart not believing their own mocking. Joking, not joking. Sorry, not sorry.

I understand your frustrations. It’s certainly a lot of work and management for the ethical types but also the ethical types are understanding and patient so it’s a good exchange.

[Finaplex]

I understand your frustrations. It’s certainly a lot of work and management for the ethical types but also the ethical types are understanding and patient so it’s a good exchange.

You would have to be a fucking Saint to put up with LSEs.

[Beautiful sky]

Yeah this is why delta STs are annoying because they are always needing/wanting consciously or subconsciously these ethical corrections and I have no care to spend life doing this for them. I think this is how they relieve stress and deal with power and hierarchies. Its a way of mocking, yet at its heart not believing their own mocking. Joking, not joking. Sorry, not sorry.

I wonder

Do you joke?

What sort of humor do you find interesting?

[Beautiful sky]

You would have to be a fucking Saint to put up with LSEs.

Haha
I am patient. I love people. I don’t hold onto being upset. I move on from frustrations easily. I value the bond more than some silly words no matter how meaningful words have an impact on others. To me each person is unique and no one can help it.

One has to be a saint to deal with ILI not LSE

[Finaplex]

Haha
I am patient. I love people. I don’t hold onto being upset. I move on from frustrations easily. I value the bond more than some silly words no matter how meaningful words have an impact on others. To me each person is unique and no one can help it.

One has to be a saint to deal with ILI not LSE

I'm not saying words have anymore, or less impact, and I'm not equaling words with Fe. LSE don't use these types of words for multiple reasons. EII are supposed to be the positivists. EII are supposed to have the Ne optimism. In delta, everyone is expected to at least want to participate in Te and therefore if some reason is stopping you, then something is wrong with you, from the perspective of the the other deltas. This is on a spectrum, we all know the rediculas messy IEE types and their clean up your messes SLIs (or the other way around happens too).

Grab an oar, we are all paddling. This is a delta motto. And if you can't paddle, then someone will do it for you, but then at least you need to listen to their supreme instructions and do things their way.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm not saying words have anymore, or less impact, and I'm not equaling words with Fe. LSE don't use these types of words for multiple reasons. EII are supposed to be the positivists. EII are supposed to have the Ne optimism. In delta, everyone is expected to at least want to participate in Te and therefore if some reason is stopping you, then something is wrong with you, from the perspective of the the other deltas. This is on a spectrum, we all know the rediculas messy IEE types and their clean up your messes SLIs (or the other way around happens too).

Yes the Ne optimism shows up in my words when I say “well at least he’s trying!” Or “well at least he’s a great cook!” Look at the bright side lol

[Finaplex]

I wonder

Do you joke?

What sort of humor do you find interesting?

The kind that makes me laugh.

[Finaplex]

Yes the Ne optimism shows up in my words when I say “well at least he’s trying!” Or “well at least he’s a great cook!” Look at the bright side lol

See this really interplays nicely into my own dynamic with LSE, especially at work, because I have to work with lots of ST types in my chosen industry. We work great together, but when they start to get cloudy and moody like this I have zero desire to help them see the bright side of things, as I can also get equally as cloudy. We mutually just can't help each other here. I just dig in harder to what I'm doing at work and think to myself that nothing is permanent. This impermanency allows me to sail by work place troubles and focus on what needs to be done in real time and set aside my feelings towards things (smoother sailing lies ahead...eventually).

I just don't use the same metrics in life when judging people as LSE do, so I find myself not caring about what they judge about people.

[Beautiful sky]

See this really interplays nicely into my own dynamic with LSE, especially at work, because I have to work with lots of ST types in my chosen industry. We work great together, but when they start to get cloudy and moody like this I have zero desire to help them see the bright side of things, as I can also get equally as cloudy. We mutually just can't help each other here. I just dig in harder to what I'm doing at work and think to myself that nothing is permanent. This impermanency allows me to sail by work place troubles and focus on what needs to be done in real time and set aside my feelings towards things (smoother sailing lies ahead...eventually).

I just don't use the same metrics in life when judging people as LSE do, so I find myself not caring about what they judge about people.

You don’t have to help them with anything. They value static relationships. That means just be there and with their mood be patient and let them complain. It will pass.

Hi LSE. How you doing?
LSE says bad etc
Aww feel better soon okay!! I’ll see you tomorrow MY Friend

[Finaplex]

You don’t have to help them with anything. They value static relationships. That means just be there and with their mood be patient and let them complain. It will pass.

To much of a concession to be honest. I will put up with this stuff for only so long, eventually I'll just quit the job. I have done this a number of times for this reason. The staticness is fine but if you are going to be fucking bitchy all the time about Te and Fi stryfe then I'm outty 5 hundo. I am a very patient man, to a fault, but at the same time I will eventually snap show if I have to hear negativity all the time (I can get negative myself so...two negatives don't make a positive). About 3 months is my maximum.

This also ties into why Deltas fail at Fe, because what they fail to notice is their "problems" are a form of negativity and being negative is like a cancer, especially in a work place. This negativity really is a call for dual information...

[Beautiful sky]

To much of a concession to be honest. I will put up with this stuff for only so long, eventually I'll just quit the job. I have done this a number of times for this reason. The staticness is fine but if you are going to be fucking bitchy all the time about Te and Fi stryfe then I'm outty 5 hundo. I am a very patient man, to a fault, but at the same time I will eventually snap show if I have to hear negativity all the time (I can get negative myself so...two negatives don't make a positive). About 3 months is my maximum.

This also ties into why Deltas fail at Fe, because what they fail to notice is their "problems" are a form of negativity and being negative is like a cancer, especially in a work place. This negativity really is a call for dual information...

Fair enough. Sounds like you have it down.