ESE and EII illusionary/Mirage relations (ESFj and INFj)

[Beautiful sky]

My ESE sister and I always always always have problems with planning and communication when we start on a project together

[Beautiful sky]

To think that knowing Socionics would help my sister and I but it never fails we always have fights during the start of a project and we just had one yesterday. If we could only agree to not work together

[Rebelondeck]

There must be significant baggage contributing to the disconnect because these two types can usually communicate and or find some common ground even though they may have completely different lifestyles and perceptions. The examples that I've seen of this relationship have all been civil......

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

ESE and EII is one of those Mirage relationships where the Erotic Attitudes are in synch, so it would normally be pretty good, especially between members of the opposite sex.

[ooo]

agreed^

does anyone remember reading somewhere (I think it was some Gulenko.. ?) that rational types are better suited with their semi-duals, while the irrationals are better suited with their mirage?

I remember reading so, and although EII and ESE are both rationals, I've experienced a very good compatibility with the ones I've met, I used to have a ESE bestie, one of the best friends I ever had.

[The Reality Denialist]

Talking with mirage is like talking to a void while getting some nice echoes.

[MrsTortilla]

What is the nature of the fighting? How does it start and who instigates it?

[Beautiful sky]

What is the nature of the fighting? How does it start and who instigates it?

I am planning a party for my daughter. I tell her and she said she wants to help and asks what she can do. I told her to take it easy and not take up too much work. She says “why don’t we host it at a local park, I GO there all the time.” I agree and she says “we can go reserve early in the morning.” I get a call one week before the party that the space is for rent with the city.” I am scrambling to find a new place having trusted her that she was right and having told Everyone to go there. Last minute I decide she texts me “why don’t we go to this other city.” I tell her off for being no help and sending me on a wild chase for a park and being no help when I trusted her to be through. She takes no responsibility and says she’s not the one planning this. I am upset and she texts me that she wants to make FUN Jell-O shots at an INFANT’s party. I told her this is not a frat party. Arg

[MrsTortilla]

I am planning a party for my daughter. I tell her and she said she wants to help and asks what she can do. I told her to take it easy and not take up too much work. She says “why don’t we host it at a local park, I GO there all the time.” I agree and she says “we can go reserve early in the morning.” I get a call one week before the party that the space is for rent with the city.” I am scrambling to find a new place having trusted her that she was right and having told Everyone to go there. Last minute I decide she texts me “why don’t we go to this other city.” I tell her off for being no help and sending me on a wild chase for a park and being no help when I trusted her to be through. She takes no responsibility and says she’s not the one planning this. I am upset and she texts me that she wants to make FUN Jell-O shots at an INFANT’s party. I told her this is not a frat party. Arg

That sounds incredibly frustrating. I can relate because I go through similar situations with my ESE mother-in-law. She will make a plan and then not have made sure it’s actually possible and you will find out at the last minute. One year she told me she wanted to cook my favorite foods for my birthday dinner. I told her she didn’t have to, but she insisted. So I told her what foods I love (simple to make) and cleared my birthday night and didn’t schedule anything with other friends or family. Then the night before my birthday she calls and says nonchalantly that she’s not making me dinner after all because she has plans with another friend. Arrrrgggh! This kind of thing is typical for her. I feel for you.

[Beautiful sky]

That sounds incredibly frustrating. I can relate because I go through similar situations with my ESE mother-in-law. She will make a plan and then not have made sure it’s actually possible and you will find out at the last minute. One year she told me she wanted to cook my favorite foods for my birthday dinner. I told her she didn’t have to, but she insisted. So I told her what foods I love (simple to make) and cleared my birthday night and didn’t schedule anything with other friends or family. Then the night before my birthday she calls and says nonchalantly that she’s not making me dinner after all because she has plans with another friend. Arrrrgggh! This kind of thing is typical for her. I feel for you.

Thank you. Finally someone who understands me. I think it’s because you and I like Te planned actions. My husband would have obsessed and planned every aspect until completion.

[Capitalist Pig]

I am upset and she texts me that she wants to make FUN Jell-O shots at an INFANT’s party. I told her this is not a frat party. Arg

your sister sounds fun, she single?

[Beautiful sky]

your sister sounds fun, she single?

She’s married C-pig but her LSI husband does nearly everything for her. She’s been a stay at home mom for 20 years

[Beautiful sky]

She just wants to be a lovable bonvidant

[Beautiful sky]

She gets enthusiastic over a new fun idea, avoids unpleasantness of work and planning, hides during a conflict and can’t brush it away, responsive to help when she’s the one who’s supported to be helping and just wants to flirt and Be merry. I’m so the opposite. I’m serious, I like planning, I don’t stay mad or upset for long, I keep the occasion and appropriateness in mind (probably due to my aristocracy nature). And I don’t want others to help if possible because I always feel like I am burdening others

[Lord Pixel]

There was an attractive girl I met at Starbucks one time I'm sure was ESE. She was a stranger but I ended up getting her phone number.

It all started when she came to a table I was sitting at, the table was empty except for me she asked me if it was ok for her to sit at the table. I told her yea. When she sat down a couple seconds went by and then I asked her what would have happened if I told her no she can't sit at the table. She laughed and responded and then shortly we were full blown into a conversation filled with jokes and details about her life. I found out where she went to school, what project she was working on where her parents were from, what she was doing tomorrow. She found out that I was drawing people around us so she asked me to draw a picture of her and then gave me puppy dog eyes, she was Fe-ing essentially, which was weird for me to see someone express puppy dog eyes to someone they just met. After awhile I told the girl I would have to leave once my ride arrived. She told me I should just stay at the cafe with her as a joke, again I felt like she was sort of coming full on a little bit without revealing interest. All this had happened before she even found out my name. We kept talking and periodically I would look out the window to check if my ride showed up. After the girl seen me do it a number of times she yelled " DO YOU WANT TO LEAVE?!" and she yelled this with an uncomfortable smile. I was so shocked how someone could think it was ok to take that tone of voice with someone they just met, or I guess this was my Fi completely misunderstanding her Fe reaction, and I looked at her very confused and she seemed to look like she was trying to calm down with a smile. I responded confused but she seemed as if that behavior is not weird for her and like she almost could not even control it. My guess is that's the nature of spontaneous Fe, maybe she didn't even know she would respond that way. So that was one moment where her Fe shocked me. Also she showed me a video that she thought I would be interested in and I told her "Oh yea I seen this before." And she said to me "Awwww, you're supposed to say you've never seen this before." Is that Fe? Social etiquette or protocol, polite norms? Either way I was confused that she wanted me to lie to her to be polite. This was a ramble but these were some of the first impression issues I had with an ESE I randomly met, and I think they were maybe Fi/Fe issues.

TLDR- Met ESE at starbucks, her Fe shocked and confused me.

[Chthonic Daydream]

what is your question

If a train leaves Dresden at 6:43:52 PM and it's raining, what is the socionics type of the engine?

[Bento]

If a train leaves Dresden at 6:43:52 PM and it's raining, what is the socionics type of the engine?

engine must make video for correct type identification

[consentingadult]

If a train leaves Dresden at 6:43:52 PM and it's raining, what is the socionics type of the engine?

If a train leaves Dresen at 6:43:52 PM, it is 3 minutes and 52 second overdue, which means the engineer must be an SLE who doesn't take orders from anyone, not even from LSI time table planners, i.e. he doesn't give a fuck about adhering to the time schedule and implements his own. It then logically follows that the engine must be IEI.

[Adam Strange]

If a train leaves Dresen at 6:43:52 PM, it is 3 minutes and 52 second overdue, which means the engineer must be an SLE who doesn't take orders from anyone, not even from LSI time table planners, i.e. he doesn't give a fuck about adhering to the time schedule and implements his own. It then logically follows that the engine must be IEI.

A reversal of the ideal arrangement. Usually it is the forward thinking and insightful IEI guiding the irresistibly powerful SLE engine.

[Moou]

As long as they aren't my obvious conflictor or quasi-conflictor, IDGAF. Socionics types can't explain everything, and life's way too short to limit yourself to one out of 16 types based on a single personality theory. That's dumb.

[consentingadult]

My ESE sister and I always always always have problems with planning and communication when we start on a project together

I'm currently working at a company restaurant where the chef is ILE and the sous-shef is ESE. It's a complete nightmare and total communication breakdown. They are good chefs when it comes to their cooking skills, but they suck as managers and I'm frustrated by their incompetence in planning and efficiency. Especially the ESE takes his incompetence out on the recipient of his half baked orders/instructions. Less experienced cooks clearly expose his lack in management skills, which is why he needs experienced cooks by his side, just to save his ass, so his incompetence isn't brought out in the open.

So what happens: while I normally excel in exceding expectations, I purposely slow down and start giving less and less, not giving a fuck anymore. Fortunately they hate my guts as much as I do hate theirs, so next week I'm rid of these retards.

[Beautiful sky]

Why doesn’t my sister respond to things in terms of facts.

Fact: Los Angeles water system is extremely reliable and safe to drink right out of the tap.
She: I am getting a filtration system installed.
Me: we have the best water system
She: yeah but it tastes funny
Me: it has minerals. Minerals give a funny taste but our bodies need minerals.
She: I want it to be clean
Me: it IS clean

[Beautiful sky]

So we had a huge family party on Friday. My SEE niece thought she saw a little blood on my nieces shirt and points it out to my ESE sister. My ESE sister has a hysterical anxiety attack runs to her car starts shouting and screaming. My husband approachs me and asks what happened. I told him she went from happy to hysteria and ran to her car and affected the environment of fun so much that she got everybody else to run after her to sooth her. My husband looks at me and says “I could not live with that! From happy to screaming.” I told him to try to ignore it. She comes back in and I go over and sit with her. Nothing is wrong with her child. She puts her to sleep and I take my niece and lay her down in a comfortable baby stroller. Yeah welcome to living with an ESE. You never know when she’ll go from happy joking to screaming

[Delilah]

*expired*

[Bento]

what do you mean by
"have a need to control/manipulate the space around them (and around me!) in ways that I find excessive and wish to halt. "

What exactly have you told them? They need to understand the source of your discomfort and you need to give them alternatives to how they can behave around you without causing you stress. Usually they'll do what they can but only if it's reasonable. So make it reasonable.

edit: "reasonable" in the sense of explaining your position with Ti. It's not an implication of you being stupid

[Sol]

any S tends to control S region as space
if you have S too (seems such as SEI) then you compete
also if that "ESE" is Se alike SEE - then you being SEI have higher irritation by the way they contol space
also any human who you do not like much by IR or other reasons may annoy you higher by anything, including space control

[Delilah]

@Bento: I've seen/noticed physical space interference with several ESE i know, like they will interfere in your personal space. Most recently this happens with my landlady, who keeps showing up at my door at random times even tho legally she needs to notify me and can't just expect to be let in simply because i'm being polite. I told her she needs to let me know in advance and not just crowd my space at random, this seemed to go over her head. That's one simple example, hope it makes sense, and i'm sure i'm being reasonable about it.

[Bento]

@Bento: I've seen/noticed physical space interference with several ESE i know, like they will interfere in your personal space. Most recently this happens with my landlady, who keeps showing up at my door at random times even tho legally she needs to notify me and can't just expect to be let in simply because i'm being polite. I told her she needs to let me know in advance and not just crowd my space at random, this seemed to go over her head. That's one simple example, hope it makes sense, and i'm sure i'm being reasonable about it.

You definitly are. That's terrible of your landlady
Holding your ground and not letting her in unless she "plays by the rules" is the only way I can think of. But that's easier said than done because I'm not in your position.
Imo Alpha's can be a bit sneaky it the sense that they bend the rules. ESEs can do that, too. I don't know whether they are not aware of this or just selfish. I'm completely powerless against that.
What would happen if you insist on being notified before you let her in? Is she someone who would kick you out?

[para]

I had two classmates of those types who got along very well together - but EII could often get tired of the influctions of the ESE, who seemed to lack the control of the procedural situations and really was more in line with how people ''felt''. So a mirage relation. EII clearly noticed the lack of T more in ESE than the other way around, at least from an external POV.

[Rebelondeck]

ESEs are usually quite attuned to other people's needs; although they're often tenacious and do like to control the day-to-day agenda, they're normally quick at recognizing boundaries. Most ESEs will tell you quite clearly from where they're coming and to where they're going while EIIs have a tendency to expect that others will divine everything out of the ether (those imperceptible EII hints). EIIs usually are the directors of these relationships while ESEs the workhorses, but EIIs need to state their requirements in very concrete terms and avoid preaching or giving ultimatums out of the blue, which can be challenges for them. These relationships have good potential but the difficulty is usually one-way communication.....

a.k.a. I/O

[silke]

what this relationship is like, with her being ESE and him being EII

[Marep]

what this relationship is like, with her being ESE and him being EII

He's not EII, not at all

[silke]

He's not EII, not at all

Given how much he likes to talk about relationships and their cooking, yes he is. You haven't watched much of their videos, have you?

[Marep]

Given how much he likes to talk about relationships and their cooking

No type related

[Beautiful sky]

Typical conversation between my sister and I. I am in the blue
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B59AFFA1-833D-4738-91B8-3F0035F076AF.png

[Beautiful sky]

My sister has a way of infecting others around her with her emotions and being the center of attention because she is and can be so emotionally expressive. At the Thanksgiving party she went into a cry expression and called upon one person at a time to tell them how much she loved them all the while crying and sobbing. Of course I am the total opposite of this as I’m very calm but I am affectionate so every so often I would hug her and encourage her not to have too much negativity. She did take a center role as I ran around and fed the kids and looked after the cleaning.

[Rebelondeck]

......we always have fights during the start of a project ......
......She takes no responsibility.....she wants to make FUN Jell-O shots at an INFANT’s party........
......she’s would drink have a merry time joke and sit on people’s laps and kiss them and joke. No serious work ethic......
.....She would get on the phone with her boyfriend and flirt all day.........
....enthusiastic over a new fun idea, avoids unpleasantness of work and planning, hides during a conflict and can’t brush it away, responsive to help when she’s the one who’s supported to be helping and just wants to flirt and Be merry......
.......and not help her son complete the project....
.....she went from happy to hysteria......
My sister has a way of infecting others.......

If these all apply to your sister, she's certainly not like any ESE that I've ever met. Is a mental disorder in the realm of possibilities?

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

So when ESE throws a fit someone needs to tell her that this makes no sense and offer an alternative way of dealing about it and give a reason in very concentrated manner and maybe ask clarifying questions. LII's handle this much better than LSI's.

Fe base is highly hysterical but ESE's need to listen clarifying words more than a direct blow of LSI.