24 informational elements

[Smilex]

Hi Hotel,

THis isn't my model. It exists. I just write about it and with the lack of previously given names to a few things (at least to my knowledge), I'm naming a few things.
About limiting and liberating (or enabling)... Every type in socionics is defined by either the quality negativist or the quality positivist. Each of these sociotypes is both defined by and separated from each other by functions. Each of these functions have qualities. If a function changing from abstract to concrete changes the related type from negativist to positivist it is reasonable to give this quality a name and a natural name for this quality is liberating or enabling. For the opposite, a natural name is limiting.
All these things already exist in socionics. I'm just annoyed that nobody has bothered to write anything about them.

[Exodus]

Hi Hotel,

THis isn't my model. It exists. I just write about it and with the lack of previously given names to a few things (at least to my knowledge), I'm naming a few things.
About limiting and liberating (or enabling)... Every type in socionics is defined by either the quality negativist or the quality positivist. Each of these sociotypes is both defined by and separated from each other by functions. Each of these functions have qualities. If a function changing from abstract to concrete changes the related type from negativist to positivist it is reasonable to give this quality a name and a natural name for this quality is liberating or enabling. For the opposite, a natural name is limiting.
All these things already exist in socionics. I'm just annoyed that nobody has bothered to write anything about them.

Regardless of whether it's "your model" or not, I would appreciate a clearer answer. As you may know, I've extensively characterized the possible structures implicit in socionics. https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/socionics_math

How does "a function changing from abstract to concrete change the related type from negativist to positivist"? If you change EIE's Ni to Si then it becomes an ESE, is that what you mean? Actually if you change any individual function into the opposite it will reverse the negativist/positivist dichotomy. Is limiting a property of a function or an element?

Besides naming things, you're also making a lot of empirical claims, some of which don't really work with classical socionics. SEEs "defined by slow careful initiatives"? LIEs "defined by slow, meandering activity"? That doesn't make any sense, SEEs and LIEs are some of the most restless and fast-acting types.

[Smilex]

Regardless of whether it's "your model" or not, I would appreciate a clearer answer. As you may know, I've extensively characterized the possible structures implicit in socionics. https://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/socionics_math

How does "a function changing from abstract to concrete change the related type from negativist to positivist"? If you change EIE's Ni to Si then it becomes an ESE, is that what you mean? Actually if you change any individual function into the opposite it will reverse the negativist/positivist dichotomy. Is limiting a property of a function or an element?
Besides naming things, you're also making a lot of empirical claims, some of which don't really work with classical socionics. SEEs "defined by slow careful initiatives"? LIEs "defined by slow, meandering activity"? That doesn't make any sense, SEEs and LIEs are some of the most restless and fast-acting types.

You're disappointing me.
You don't turn an ENFj into an ESFj by painting over a function with another one. That's not how people work. That's ridiculous to the point of being pointless to discuss. The border between ESFj and ENFj is when Fe coalesces from an abstraction into a concrete form as they gain experience and confidence in the function. Simultaneously the other traits change and the association changes from Si to Ni though this is the least perceptible part of the change as relative functional strength between these two qualities. This border is what a function is and the sides of this define what the function does. It's very simple and self-evident.

ESFps are a process type. I understand if you don't know many of them personally but they are in socionics defined as progressing step by step without leaping to the results. They are also a taciturn type. THey proceed without internal guidance in their activity and as such their progress in their activities is experimental, slowly progressing. ESFps are also classified as a careful type. This is both according to theory and according to reality. THey just have their own way of being careful. They're very selective in their choices.

ENTjs avoid all activity. THey are an intuitive type. They prefer others do the activity. ENTjs therefore do not define the activity part of the group they are associated with. This is analogous with quadras. Criticizing this is the same as criticizing that ENFps are part of a quadra that values Te. THey are just a group member who complements this. ENTjs complement meandering activity.

Have you ever read a quadra description? They are very strained in how they try to unite types that are completely different under a label. This work is analogous. As such this carries the same type of weaknesses but also brings in new understanding. Which is the point.

I think you're being wilfully ignorant. But I can understand the disrespect. I am partially also satirizing for Aushra's work is worthy of parody. But I encourage you to go and study quadras and maybe come back to this thread in a few years. The point stands.

[Adam Strange]

ENTjs avoid all activity. They are an intuitive type. They prefer others do the activity.

I think what you are doing is very interesting and is certainly worth exploring, but I have to disagree that ENTj's avoid all activity. At least, I don't.

I got jobs as a machinist and a welder so I could learn how to make things, and then I bought lathes, mills, grinders, and welders so I could make anything I wanted. I learned how to make telescope mirrors and lenses, and built interferometers to test them. I replaced the plumbing in my house, replaced the electrical wires and panels (and it passed inspection), dug the trenches, insulated the garage, replaced the roof myself, and then disassembled the engine of my car at 300k miles and rebuilt it in the driveway one summer.

I have to admit, I now prefer to have other people do work for me now, but only because it is more efficient, not because I don't like to work with my hands. Professionals can usually do a better job than I can when I'm first learning how to do something, and I now make money at a high enough rate that doing something myself that I could pay someone to do only loses me money.

I hate to do nothing. It drives me crazy. I'm happiest, I'm most in a Zen state of mind, when I'm actually doing something physical. My biggest problem nowadays is that I spend all my time in conversations, either showing people the way ahead or putting out fires and making minor course corrections, none of which involves physical activity, and it is taking a toll on me.

[Smilex]

I think what you are doing is very interesting and is certainly worth exploring, but I have to disagree that ENTj's avoid all activity. At least, I don't.

I got jobs as a machinist and a welder so I could learn how to make things, and then I bought lathes, mills, grinders, and welders so I could make anything I wanted. I learned how to make telescope mirrors and lenses, and built interferometers to test them. I replaced the plumbing in my house, replaced the electrical wires and panels (and it passed inspection), dug the trenches, insulated the garage, replaced the roof myself, and then disassembled the engine of my car at 300k miles and rebuilt it in the driveway one summer.

I have to admit, I now prefer to have other people do work for me now, but only because it is more efficient, not because I don't like to work with my hands. Professionals can usually do a better job than I can when I'm first learning how to do something, and I now make money at a high enough rate that doing something myself that I could pay someone to do only loses me money.

I hate to do nothing. It drives me crazy. I'm happiest, I'm most in a Zen state of mind, when I'm actually doing something physical. My biggest problem nowadays is that I spend all my time in conversations, either showing people the way ahead or putting out fires and making minor course corrections, none of which involves physical activity, and it is taking a toll on me.

I understand your criticism but an ENTj is not a person. It's a theoretical type whereas you are an individual. What you're saying is that you have high capability and ability to enjoy spatial activity, by definition Si. You're claiming most happiness when engaging in the ENTj POLR. That's kinda... weird according to theory.

[Adam Strange]

I understand your criticism but an ENTj is not a person. It's a theoretical type whereas you are an individual. What you're saying is that you have high capability and ability to enjoy spatial activity, by definition Si. You're claiming most happiness when engaging in the ENTj POLR. That's kinda... weird according to theory.

I am a Gamma raised by Deltas. Every day is Backwards day for me. I even married an SLI for her Si. Shoot me now.

In all fairness, I know enough LIE's to see that they bridge the spectrum from "actively doing" to 'asking for help" with doing things. I attribute the differences to sub-types and the relative strengths of Ni and Te.

[Smilex]

I am a Gamma raised by Deltas. Every day is Backwards day for me.

In all fairness, I know enough LIE's to see that they bridge the spectrum from "actively doing" to 'asking for help" with doing things. I attribute the differences to sub-types and the relative strengths of Ni and Te.

I find this easy to understand but Aushra would've had a hell of a time trying to explain this. Probably resorting to some talk about masks.