24 informational elements

[Smilex]

There exists a chirality between these three viewpoints. So actually the number of viewpoints is expanded to 6 when you create the analogy of the model A.
Original choice was to perceive Ne etc. and choose the accepting-creating as the secondary grouping and leaving the limiting-liberating issue as implicit.

So why care about this? This was a choice, not necessity. But doesn't it work? Isn't this 'the best' choice?
Well. The theory claims that dual relatoins are 'the best' based on how they correlate within the model A. But if model A is a random choice, are dual relations really the best? And best for what? Aushra focused on marriages and such to gain popularity for the system. A good marketing ploy to be sure, but truth? Maybe. A claim that you have the secret to choice of 'best' relationships is pretty powerful. So why then all the excuses in the system? Why don't dual couples appreciate each other more? To quote Gulenko: "But because of this lack of conflict the result is that your dual seems to fade into the background when amongst other people. They seem to be too simple and ordinary, and thus not deserving of your attention. "

Eh? Aushra's choice ignores the axis of motivation. Within socionics there exists the dichotomy of positive - negative... directly related to the experience of happiness. If you choose Ne, Ni and so on as your functions but choose opposite chirality for your model A... You have the primary position of the grid as your liberating function, what creates joy for you. What you prefer, what you seek. THen your second position in the grid would be your limiting function, what you understand must exist as your personal limitation. If you look for your 'best relationship' based on this chirality you find a person whose informational function completes your own, Ne still seeks Si and so on. But you also find a relation who likes what you like! Someone who actually likes complementing you! This partnership in socionics is called an activity partnership.

In real life I see more successful marriages that are activity partnerships than I do ones that are duals. If socionics aimed to really teach us on how to find good relationships and make them work, it would focus on teaching us how to enjoy activity partnerships,how to get the most out of them and also how to accept their negative sides and how to avoid letting those negatives destroy the partnership.

In dual relationship meanwhile while complementary relations exist and there is better communication in the relationship, the relationship always has a measure of abuse. What limits one partner liberates the other. There's a continuous fight to redefine the partnership based on what you enjoy and a continuous irritation from having to accept the other partner venturing into a part of the relation that weakens you. These relations do have plenty of positives and they are important but they are related to better communication instead of better happiness.

So isn't it possible to be happy in a dual relationship? Yes, of course it is... by imposing the relationship through the combination of functions that maximizes your positivity, which incidentally maximizes the negativity experienced by your partner. Great, now you're idolizing a slave-relationship where the other is captured by your whims.

Incidentally you get the same choices of complementary couples in two different ways. Complementing through Ne and model A is the same as complementing through Liberating intuition and a model that puts accepting or creating as the first function on the model grid.

Complementing through Ne and having the first grid position be a liberating function is the same as complementing through Accepting sensory and having the first grid position be a liberating function.

And likewise the mirror complements are complementing through liberating intuition and having the first grid position be your introvert function. Or complementing through accepting intuition and having the first grid position be an introvert function.

These 6 psyche models are all analogous and equivalent to model A but lead to different perspectives and conclusions.

Likewise you can instead of quadras have analogous groupings of four types:
option 2) ENTp-ISFj-ISFp-ENTj etc.
or option 3) ENTp- ISFj-INTp-ESFj.

If you consider the group of ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj... let's start by thinking what happens with them on a playground. The group has individuals that are highly energetic and dominate the physical space enjoying the physical activity and then you have individuals that just stay back and observe what's happening.

This group leads to the ENFp-ISTj-ISTp-ENFj. As the ESF-types expend their energy they either get tired or hurt. This leads them to have to stop their actions and be frustrated and emotional while the IST-types consider this situation to prove that they were smart to conserve their energy and now as the clever ones they can do whatever they want as the playground is free.

The third group is naturally ENTp-ISFj-ISFp-ENTj. The ENT-types start to find ways to enjoy the inactivity and throw wild ideas. The ISF-types, having run out of ideas start they fall into a routine of boredom and dutiful action, continuing out of momentum.

Finally the fourth group ESTp-INFj-INFp-ESTj. The EST-types start to mobilize on their grand ideas enforcing new actions. The excitement of it all relieves the INF-types from their duties letting them just observe an enjoy the show.

...

Finally the the ENTp-ISFj-INTp-ESFj and groups of this ilk. ... This particular group is defined by careless initiatives and careful responses. The rationals dominate the physical sphere and a large number of local patterns exist in activity while ideas are allowed to be creative and wild.

ESTp-INFj-ISTp-ENFj. This particular group is defined by increasing forcefulness of initiatives and increasing bravery and gambling of the responses. A period of gathering momentum. Forcefulness and irrationality dominate physical activity while rationals focus on ideals and ethics. Random violence, moral outcries and philosophical codification.

ESFp-INTj-ISFp-ENTj. Defined by slow careful initiatives and reliance on trends allowing for great liberty of responses. Irrational kindness and rational codification of ideas and science. Increasing desire to teach and better mankind.

ENFp-ISTj-INFp-ESTj. Defined by experimental initiatives with increasing intricacy and demands and increasing selectivity in accepted responses. High productivity defined by rational thinking doers and creativity of ideas from irrationals. A situation of unexpected consequences, things getting out of hand.

[Smilex]

The first post in this thread was serious. The second was more light-hearted but true.
Now I'm just kind of riffing...

Considering the groups defined by limiting or liberating functions, and complement each other through introversion /extroversion...

This group contains the conflict, dual and quasi-identical sociotypes.

We have the first group...
ENTp - ISFj - ISFp - ENTj ... Let's call this group Dawn.
This group is carefree, but decreasing carefree, democratic, business-like, sincere, yielding also increasing yielding. It is defined by liberating intuition and it's complement, limiting sensorics in their concrete well developed forms and by limiting thinking and its complement, liberating ethics in their abstract forms. This group is defined by free informational space. Any environment which encourages brainstorming will turn into this. The hot temperaments shout their ideas with glee but also a bit of fear of missing their opportunity. Any activity is done by the cold types and as such the group is slow, but still forceful in the actions as the sensory types are limited in their choice of action. Getting anything done is precious and so carries a high cost. Wages are allowed to rise and this increases business-mindedness and increasing costs decrease the carelessness.

ESTp-INFj-INFp-ESTj - Let's call this group Noon
This group is careful and increasing careful, aristocratic, business-like, sincere, yielding also decreasing yielding. It is defined by Limiting thinking in it's concrete form and its complement, liberating ethics also in the concrete form. Likewise its defined by Liberating sensory activity in its abstract form and its complement, limiting intuition, also in the abstract form. 'If you want something done, you have to do it yourself' is what drives the hot temperaments to action. There is no longer faith in the ideas that created the thought processes that are now pushing them to action. Business-minded planning drives the activity now. The operating environment is getting dangerous, forced and cutthroat. Productivity is high but variety is limited. Careful planning precedes every activity. The cold temperaments are pushed out of the direct physical engagements. This gives them freedom to give to dream, learn, make art and enjoy.

ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj - Let's call this group Dusk
This group is careful, but decreasing careful, democratic, passionate, cold and obstinate, also increasingly obstinate. It is defined by liberating sensory and it's complement, limiting intuition in their concrete well developed forms and by limiting ethics and its complement, liberating thinking in their abstract forms. Plentiful physical resources, freely available, increasingly cheap labour define this group. Physical activity is high causing high stress levels to the cold temperaments, who become increasingly frustrated by the pointlessness of it all. Demands for conservation of resources start to rise as productivity is depleting the resources. Intellectual criticism of prevailing conditions dominates the academic sphere.

ENFp-ISTj-ISTp-ENFj, let's call this group midnight.
This group is carefree and increasing carefree, aristocratic, passionate, cold, obstinate, also decreasing obstinate. It is defined by Limiting ethics in it's concrete form and its complement, liberating thinking also in the concrete form. Likewise its defined by Liberating intuition activity in its abstract form and its complement, limiting sensory, also in the abstract form. The hot temperaments find themselves in endless arguments over poorly developed concepts fighting over what is right and what is wrong. Very little gets done. The impossibility of getting their voices heard allows the cold temperaments time to focus on their own concerns and do what they want the way they want. As everything seems pointless, they find that things have exactly the worth they give it, motivating few, but creative and well-thought out physical creations.

...

One could quite easily argue that this group correlates better with the business cycle than quadras do and as such I hope this interests some of you.

[Smilex]

This post reserved for discussing the groups defined by accepting and creative informational elements complementing each other through positivity or negativity.

These groups consist of activity, contrary and conflict relations.

ENFp-ISTj-INFp-ESTj ... Let's call this group Plants.
Creating concrete ethics and abstract accepting intuition complementing accepting concrete thinking and creating abstract sensory.
Rational thinking sensory
Irrational ethical intuition
Tactical and increasing
Emotion-creating but decreasing
Aristocratic

This group combines the slow stepwise controlled rational change of plans into actions with the sequential outbursts of rapid moody behaviour trying to find out how to relate to the slowly progressing events. As the process continues, more and more is at stake as the results start to come evident. The rational behaviour becomes more intense while the irrationals quiet down seeing that the moment is past, starting to take in the new balance. This group is about a slow evolution that creates a variety of experiences with the opportunity of experiencing this growth (or degeneration). The slowness of the process liberates the cold temperaments that get to fully enjoy the experience while the same slow pace pains the hot temperaments. As the process of rational progression gains pace, the system itself gains power and becomes self-important. The original meaningful idea lost. Simultaneously the irrational types feel more and more detached and distanced from their own goals as they are cut off from both the connection to the reason of the activity and unable to change the fait accompli.



ENTp-ISFj-INTp-ESFj ... Let's call this group Herbivores
Accepting concrete intuition and creative abstract thinking complementing creative concrete sensory and accepting abstract ethics
Rational ethical sensory
Irrational thinking and intuition
Tactical but decreasing.
Creation-creating and increasing.
Democratic
The sensory dimension is dominated by rapid, self-serving production of results for the sake of results. The repetitive systematic environment gives opportunity to the irrational intellectuals to slowly ingest and digest what is happening and process the events thoroughly to give well thought out commentary on the circumstances. The plentiful action is freeing and exciting to the hot temperaments but tiring to the cold temperaments. This group is about making or getting a large impression as well and focus on repetition. This creates a self-assuredness in this group allowing the individuals a feeling of importance and power, safety in their choices and roles.

ESTp-INFj-ISTp-ENFj. ... Let's call this group Carnivores.
Creative concrete thinking and accepting abstract sensory complementing accepting concrete ethics and creating abstract intuition
Rational ethical intuition
Irrational thinking sensory
Strategic and increasing
Creation-creating but decreasing
Aristocratic
The group combines the irrational process of proceeding into action, well thought out but hasty and variable in the execution with the strong emotional connection of the rationals that slowly dissipates into detachment, witnessing the random results. As all types start with great conviction and the physical activity is random and unpredictable this group has a great likelyhood of causing pain, both emotional and physical. While significant and surprising positives are also created, people have a tendency of assessing the risk of loss greater than the possibility of gain. The decrease of social relations gives more importance to what is viewed as important by the individuals themselves. The individual's particularities are strongly shown in this group and as such the likelihood of forming small subgroups is significant.


ESFp-INTj-ISFp-ENTj. ... Let's call this group Detritivores.
Accepting concrete sensory and creating abstract ethics complementing creating concrete intuition and abstract accepting thinking
Rational thinking intuition
Irrational ethical sensory
Strategic but decreasing
Emotion-creating and increasing
Democratic
This group is in the physical realm defined by slow, meandering activity that progresses towards a sense of satisfaction combined with rapid throwing of ideas resulting from the variability of available stimulus. There's a sense of weak ability to cause things to happen and a feeling of low self-importance, decreasing contact to what is considered important, a loss of the perceived self and a rise of speculation. A focus on experimentation. The decrease of self-importance allows for greater sociability which excites the hot temperaments but simultaneously crushes the cold temperaments. Low self-respect, and lack of class may be thrown around about this group.

[MrsTortilla]

This post reserved for discussing the groups defined by accepting and creative informational elements complementing each other through positivity or negativity.

ENTp-ISFj-INTp-ESFj
Rational ethical sensory
Irrational thinking and intuition
Tactical but decreasing.
Emotion-creating and increasing.
Democratic

And so on.

ESTp-INFj-ISTp-ENFj.

ESFp-INTj-ISFp-ENTj.

ENFp-ISTj-INFp-ESTj

If I am in a group with ILE there’s bound to be trouble! ;-)

But seriously, I found your first post quite interesting. I think I am most attracted to my Activity partners in a sort of electric and helpless sort of way.

[Smilex]

If I am in a group with ILE there’s bound to be trouble! ;-)

But seriously, I found your first post quite interesting. I think I am most attracted to my Activity partners in a sort of electric and helpless sort of way.

Thank you. Got you your ENTp-ISFj group fleshed out. Enjoy!

[MrsTortilla]

Thank you. Got you your ENTp-ISFj group fleshed out. Enjoy!

Haha what I meant was trouble in a not good sort of way. :/

[The Reality Denialist]

If I am in a group with ILE there’s bound to be trouble! ;-)

Well, at least the group is not called carnivores.

[MrsTortilla]

Well, at least the group is not called carnivores.

[BasicallyGod]

If you consider the group of ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj... let's start by thinking what happens with them on a playground. The group has individuals that are highly energetic and dominate the physical space enjoying the physical activity and then you have individuals that just stay back and observe what's happening.

This group leads to the ENFp-ISTj-ISTp-ENFj. As the ESF-types expend their energy they either get tired or hurt. This leads them to have to stop their actions and be frustrated and emotional while the IST-types consider this situation to prove that they were smart to conserve their energy and now as the clever ones they can do whatever they want as the playground is free.

The third group is naturally ENTp-ISFj-ISFp-ENTj. The ENT-types start to find ways to enjoy the inactivity and throw wild ideas. The ISF-types, having run out of ideas start they fall into a routine of boredom and dutiful action, continuing out of momentum.

Finally the fourth group ESTp-INFj-INFp-ESTj. The EST-types start to mobilize on their grand ideas enforcing new actions. The excitement of it all relieves the INF-types from their duties letting them just observe an enjoy the show.

I have come to a conclusion of my own that these 4-groups were significant before, but from a different approach route:

Each of these groups are "comfortable visitors" to a certain adjacent quadra.

As an example, none of the types from ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj are Deltas, but none of them have a PoLR in the Delta quadra. Hence, you could say that the "comfort quadra" of this group is Delta.

The group of comfortable inhabitants of Delta, as such, is extended by these types: ENFp, INFj, ISTp, ESTj and ESFp, INTj, INTp, ESFj

This extended group could be considered to be more relevant to real observed situations than the quadras themselves, because quadras attract people who are comfortable in them as much as they attract people who are native to them.

However, "extended comfort quadra" is at the same time a battleground between the types from the "visitors" and much less comfortable to the quadra's native types than the original quadra, due to supervision from the visitors.

In reality I would expect a dynamic along these lines to unfold:
- a group of native quadra members attracts each other
- visitors from adjacent quadras to which the quadra is comfortable get attracted as well
- the group is now less comfortable to the original members
- the original members find themselves needing to ward off the visitors to make it as good as "the old days"
- it's possible that the group will choose a side in the battle between opposing visitors and turn into an alliance of two adjacent quadras instead

[Smilex]

I have come to a conclusion of my own that these 4-groups were significant before, but from a different approach route:

Each of these groups are "comfortable visitors" to a certain adjacent quadra.

As an example, none of the types from ESFp-INTj-INTp-ESFj are Deltas, but none of them have a PoLR in the Delta quadra. Hence, you could say that the "comfort quadra" of this group is Delta.

The group of comfortable inhabitants of Delta, as such, is extended by these types: ENFp, INFj, ISTp, ESTj and ESFp, INTj, INTp, ESFj

This extended group could be considered to be more relevant to real observed situations than the quadras themselves, because quadras attract people who are comfortable in them as much as they attract people who are native to them.

However, "extended comfort quadra" is at the same time a battleground between the types from the "visitors" and much less comfortable to the quadra's native types than the original quadra, due to supervision from the visitors.

In reality I would expect a dynamic along these lines to unfold:
- a group of native quadra members attracts each other
- visitors from adjacent quadras to which the quadra is comfortable get attracted as well
- the group is now less comfortable to the original members
- the original members find themselves needing to ward off the visitors to make it as good as "the old days"
- it's possible that the group will choose a side in the battle between opposing visitors and turn into an alliance of two adjacent quadras instead

Thank you. That's good insight.
It's really rare to see text of this quality on this site.
Before completely signing on to the concept of delta-friendly types though I'd have to point that subtypes are a huge issue in what really happens for any alpha or gamma in a delta environment. That's kind of a part of what you described as the conflict happening though so I guess you thought of that too.

[Computer Loser]

Thank you. That's good insight.
It's really rare to see text of this quality on this site.
Before completely signing on to the concept of delta-friendly types though I'd have to point that subtypes are a huge issue in what really happens for any alpha or gamma in a delta environment. That's kind of a part of what you described as the conflict happening though so I guess you thought of that too.

Do u have any suggestions when u have a group of mixed quadras?

I remembering working for different groups at the same company.

Group 1 i felt like we were on the same page
Group 2 i felt like things were more disorganized (though still workable)

Would u try to move away to another group, or were there any kind of socionics-related solutions to this

[Smilex]

Do u have any suggestions when u have a group of mixed quadras?

I remembering working for different groups at the same company.

Group 1 i felt like we were on the same page
Group 2 i felt like things were more disorganized (though still workable)

Would u try to move away to another group, or were there any kind of socionics-related solutions to this

It's complicated.
It also depends on what you're trying to do.
If the job means nothing to you, just befriend whoever you feel like you would most like to work with after you're gone from that job.

If you want to achieve something in that place of work, then it's difficult to find the optimal path. And the optimal path might also be unethical so there's also questions of how far you're willing to go.

Are you willing to purposefully smoke out unwanted individuals to improve the function of the work space?
Are you willing to change your principles to fit in with a power clique?
Are you willing to work harder hours than some other maniac just to shine more?
Understanding socionics is good and all but using socionics at the workplace can lead you into some anti-social/sociopathic acts.

I'll tell you what though. While I was mentoring younger doctors, one of the things I always tried to impress upon them was that they should always look for a place where they feel welcome. That's the place that will help them thrive.