@Pyre : Myers Si = Socionics Si (loosely, since they are incompatible systems). If you'd like to show it doesn't, that would make sense. However, you seem to now be agreeing, which is perfectly fine. All this was to help newbies come from MBTI to Socionics. That's why I wrote "Te" a couple posts back. When you wrote "My point/opinion still stands otherwise," and we understand your point to be that I wasn't making sense, then you would be wrong, yes, since you clearly understood...right? lol.
Last edited by cactagon; 08-26-2020 at 04:22 AM. Reason: improper tag
Not even loosely. Si in Jung/Socionics is about "innervation phenomena", inner sensations like muscle tension, headache, hunger, weakness, vertigo, sensuality, sexual sensations, ~ "body sensations" etc. Also inner sensations as reflected from the environment, impressions from nature etc.Originally Posted by cactagon
Si in mbti is flawed and they seem to be speaking of something totally different.
Also, if you look at the descriptions and type names then there seems to be no switch for introverts between mbti and socionics.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
@Tallmo : Yes. Even very loosely. You think cuz you got Si that you is an authority now? Lettuce be less ethical and more logical, since facts matter in this particular instance. Observe:
If we were take an official article on MBTI, namely <https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-...-attitudes.htm > the definition of Si becomes:
"Compares present facts and experiences to past experience. Trusts the past. Stores sensory data for future use."
Isn't it a curious thing that on < http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...verted_Sensing > it is written that a DEFINING feature of Si dominate people is that they "are able to distinguish previously experienced aesthetic sensations from new ones," almost as if they stored their sensory data, as MBTI writes, or even that they must've compared present facts and experience to past experience...allowing them to....distinguish between previously experienced sensations? lolol
More so, < http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ation_elements > provides us with a definition of Si being "information [that] is [about] one's continuous physical exchanges with one's environment." Do you not see a loose comparison? The act of comparing present facts and experiences to past experience (as MBTI writes), given the Socinoic definition of Si being information, or a function that is in continual flux with their environment, well, now, is the horse dead yet? Any Alpha, any human child can see a pattern.
There is a j/p switch only for introverts, when coming from MBTI to Socionics.
This friendly, Te advice should never be discounted. It is an incontestable fact. I'm jus waiting for someone with Fi to say thank you for being so helpful. Like daymn, yall got ur heads up ur butts when you literally reference your own self-evident knowledge as an objective reason.
Last edited by cactagon; 08-26-2020 at 05:12 PM. Reason: improper tag
Most people get their MBTI type from taking the tests, and IIRC most of those tests just score you on I/E, N/S, T/F, and J/P. So if a Socionics LII takes it and doesn't say they have a messy desk (all those J/P questions), they'll get INTJ or NiTe lol. Given how poorly MBTI seems to define the functions anyway, and given how LII has strong Ni and Te, reading the descriptions won't necessarily create an issue.
My point is j/p switch is informative just to show people the functions don't match, but it's not going to be the case that all introverts just need to j/p switch to get their socionics type. Even introversion/extroversion is more restrictive in MBTI, so more social socionics introverts may type as MBTI extroverts.
@Smilex lol to give me a "general strategy tip" in the form of a tautological "Usefulness is also individual" is, again, not efficient and anti-Te. Obviously Te is a dynamic element, changing for every situation. You wrote so much just to say "useful for me," which, AGREES with @NightHawk when she mentions the "letting off steam/circlejerk."
At this point it's obvious that you are as useless as the other one. Start again. You know nothing.
Typical loser mentality. I never claimed to value Te, just that you and this article have none. Retype yourself, or spend your time wisely and in your strengths, like HomeGoods.
To the audience at large. While cactagon fails in basic literacy, others may be able to note that I never talked about his/her valuations. He/she is fighting against his/her own hallucinations and inadequacies.
Drawing support from a crowd? Typical loser tactics. Very Trump-esque. When you wrote "you are as useless as the other one," you are commenting on WHY you're here writing to begin with, to defend that this article ISNT lacking objective utility, along with yourself. You have been challenged, henceforth you QQ. To then write you "never talked about [my] valuations," well, were dealing strictly with Te, so in calling me useless, well, bruh, I don't even value utility, but I know when it's lacking fo sho. Is you dumb? Start again.
Last edited by cactagon; 08-26-2020 at 05:28 PM. Reason: eque->esque
It's funny because it's true.
@Tallmo : To say I'm "stretching things" is an admission of a partial truth, which more definitively makes you wrong and me right. There is a loose connection, whether you like it or not. As an SEI, Te shouldn't be your cup of tea, so your failure to understand this makes sense. I don't speak in opinions like all 3 of you just have. Nothing self-evident can be used to substantiate any claims, otherwise it's called hearsay, which, at least in America gets thrown out of court. You're right to conclude that the author is describing a dynamic element, which of course, by nature, accounts for, and is subject to, the changes in it's environment, a change from present to past or past to present, right? Just like the official Myers Briggs definition. What's more, not any type will "remember" past details of its dominant element. Fourth dimensionality allows for temporality, sure, but Ne most definitely does not remember details sharply, as it deals primarily with the cultural images as they ARE, not in relation to as they WERE. You're all wrong and it's okay. A simple thank you will suffice. God bless the newbies who have to argue against everybody's years worth of opinions, "obviouslys" and other self-evident bs. God also save the Queen.
In considering the "type patterns" of both systems, there IS a j/p switch only among introverts. Nobody has refuted this with logic. Caso cerrado.
@Synchrony : I'm glad you agree. When you write, "it is a generally accepted idea that there is a J/P switch in the introverted types and that there is a loose connection between the functions of the two systems," I couldn't agree less tho, since that's why were on this thread. Did you read what @Tallmo wrote? NO loose correlation. I don't fit into "the only people who [u] have seen argue this point," which happens with subjective experiences. A lot of what you wrote repeated what I posted, but it's good to see confirmation.
@onfireee : You begin with "Archetypes," and what follows is naturally wrong, given your incorrect premise. Of course a Craftsman doesn't transform into a Police Officer. In dealing with "type patterns," we are only looking at the first two dominant elements. As @Synchrony repeated, "The definitions and applications are going to be different because they are different interpretations and models." Were we to look at anything BUT the first 2 dominant elements, there is no smooth transition. You wrote "drop the functions talk," but here you've missed the point. That's exclusively what were dealing with, the first 2 functions of each that create a "type pattern," NOT an archetype. As I showed Tallmo, these functions LOOSELY share similarities, allowing for a comparison between "type patterns." Both systems DO NOT describe "the same archetype" as you misunderstood. Considering anything but the first 2 elements will result in confusion...which should've been pretty obvious
Ok so here are some key differences between ISTP vs. ISTJ archetypes u find in MBTI:
ISTP (The Craftsmen)
1. have an adventuresome spirit, they are attracted to motorcycles, airplanes, sky diving, surfing
2. they do no believe in or follow rules and regulations, as this would prohibit them to “do their own thing”
3. adaptable and spontaneous
ISTJ (The Duty fulfiller)
1. Strongly felt internal sense of duty
2. They are “good citizens” who can be depended on to do the right thing for their families and communities.
3. Tend to believe in laws and traditions and expect the same from others, They’re not comfortable with breaking laws or going against the rules
In summary:
--ISTP is more of the rebellious, dare-devil, lemme-do-my-own-thing type while
--ISTJ is more of the boy scout that follows the rules and respects the laws and tradition.
Now let’s compare to the socionics archetypes and see which one fits better with which:
SLI/ISTp
Common social roles
1. The quiet individualist who marches to his or her own drumbeat, cultivating eccentric, yet enjoyable interests and pretty much ignoring everything else.
2. Mr. or Mrs. down-to-earth, who takes a dry and simple attitude towards everything, deflating all excitement and elevated emotions and sentiments.
LSI/ISTj
Common social roles
1. The policeman or referee who keeps a sharp eye on how well people are adhering to the rules and takes it upon himself to correct or punish deviants.
2. The career bureaucrat or administrator who rises through the ranks of traditional administrative structures (government organs, large corporations, and other large, hierarchical structures), carefully performing his duties and winning in the long run.
It's pretty obvious, boys and girls.
Drop the functions talk (again bc MBTIs are flawed)
Both systems are describing the SAME ARCHETYPE across both systems. If u J/P flipped it'd be like getting some major plastic surgery
EX: Say one is ISTP and u J/P flip.... You'd get a completely different archetype in socionics - a craftsmen transforms into a police officer???
Last edited by Computer Loser; 08-27-2020 at 04:58 PM.
I finally read through the original posts and a lot of it does make sense. Impressive work and some of the best content on this forum.
Respect is one of those magical things that when given, adds more to the glory of the giver than the receiver.
@Northstar is an LSI acting like he a big SLE. Monkey see money do. I breathed life into this meecrob article!
Cool reasoning, little ILE.
What's hilarious is that someone also made a monkey reference:
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...71#post1422271
Can you even type, bro? Fix your TIM. LSI's are cool, no need to feel supervised tho cuz I'm not ILE. We're Kindred homiee. Did you forget our videochat? LSI's have a much more difficult time changing their opinions than an SLE with dynamic 4D Te ...(see what I did there?)... Also, this article is getting more attention than it deserves. Model-L is the future:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...2cFEy2Vk/edit#
Wait a second, when did we ever videochat?
Some Ne crept into this description, which is a frequent issue in this paper. I'm wondering if the authors have a good grasp on Ni to begin with.Then there's the "Concretizing" pair of Ni→Se. Ni (“Insight”) is the intuitive grasp of acquired psychic percepts which produces a sense of probability & temporal trajectory -- filtering down the range of one's potential choices into focused intentions. Se (“Drive”) is the mobilization of available energy towards forcefully engaging with the physical environment to project one's will against contravening forces -- injecting the “power” into “will power”. Ni guides Se impulses with awareness of longer-term goals & consequences, while Se brings about Ni aspirations, concretely manifesting one's intentions in the world against the odds. This pair is about anticipating future eventualities and actively shaping the course of events.
Ne potentials is also just as much about filtering down as it is about expanding outwards. I think the issue with including to much expansion has other cofactors. Pairing with Te-Fe being one of them. Increasing the amount of available action, avenues, tasks, projects ect, and people, events, opportunities, goes hand in hand with Xe.
This actually helps to extend my own understanding of Delta's fatal flaw I've seen time and again: "What do I do?" They get into these loops of thinking about everything and then nothing gets done, which is why STs organize and activate the group.
There is to much Si blocked with Te here, which is a issue throughout the entire paper."Action":
(ST)e = (⋂
) = («
- «Te» ("Praxis") & ‹Se› ("Actuation"). «Te» is the employment of informal, practical methodologies to adjust external conditions for immediate utility, convenience, and productivity. ‹Se› is the regulatory projection of force to control one's physical environment and bring it into conformity with the bounds of circumscribed parameters. Both of these sub-elements involve active engagement with tangible externalities; however, while the former «Te» is focused on the minimization of physical stress and maximization of ease, the latter ‹Se› is more oriented towards the forceful assertion of dominance over one's environment to some extent or another.
I dig it, it needs more clear definitions though. More clear definitions >>> less effort for me to figure out what you mean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko
Te: There is a switch only for introverts. This isn't something you believe or not. The systems are largely incompatible, but to help newcomers adjust, as a community, we should inform them of this factual switch. Afterwards may they type themselves according to their newly learned Socionics data. My statement isn't odd if you interpret the "elsewhere" as "the designated area" on this forum doe. Not tryn be rudee.
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