INTx and Strategic Thinking

[FarDraft]

@FarDraft, my description is based on my personal experiences with ILI's and SLI's. I may have mis-typed some of them.

Oh, I wasn't implicating that you copied it or something. I apologize if that's what it sounded like.
It's interesting how an understanding of functions within different contexts can lead to wildly different perceptions of type. Since you work in business (I assume from what you've written), you probably meet a lot of ambitious ILIs who use their meticulous planning and knowledge for personal gain. I assume that ILIs in academia or "softer" fields would be less like this. Maybe it has to do with subtype? Te vs Ni? I still don't fully understand the differences between them, though, which is why I keep retracting the subtype from my TIM and signature.

[Adam Strange]

Oh, I wasn't implicating that you copied it or something. I apologize if that's what it sounded like.
It's interesting how an understanding of functions within different contexts can lead to wildly different perceptions of type. Since you work in business (I assume from what you've written), you probably meet a lot of ambitious ILIs who use their meticulous planning and knowledge for personal gain. I assume that ILIs in academia or "softer" fields would be less like this. Maybe it has to do with subtype? Te vs Ni? I still don't fully understand the differences between them, though, which is why I keep retracting the subtype from my TIM and signature.

I considered the fact that my descriptions do sound like those of INTJ's in MBTI. It might be because I don't see a big difference between the descriptions in the two systems, and I might have a hard time seeing the Ni because I have Ni myself and kind of swim in it.

Yes, I actually do know a few ILI's in both business and academia who use their meticulous planning and knowledge for personal gain. Most are actually quite well-off. But the two I know in academia are not less motivated by personal gain because they are in academia. Rather, it is because one is probably an e9 and a genuinely nice guy who wants to teach, while the other is a computer systems manager for a college and wants to hide in the machine.
The differences between the ILI's whom I know seem to be based on enneagram rather than job descriptions. I think most of the ILI's I know are ILI-Te's. I think an ILI-Ni would spend most of his time dreaming and very little of his time doing.

[End]

@FarDraft You've just nailed down my relationship with my LII cousin. He's often amazed by my feats of "analytical" thinking. He manages to confuse me on occasion with a riddle or a hypothetical problem, but then the way I eventually solve it and, because I love and respect him, drop all filters and actually voice out my thoughts as I do so, amazes him. He amazes me, in turn, in bringing up things in my analysis that I never dreamed of. I have failed to solve a few of his queries, at first, then he says something really out there from my perspective and then I well and fully get it. He has a good laugh, I kick myself metaphorically for not thinking of that aspect or catching that, in hindsight, obvious hint, then he states how he's surprised at how fast I got it after that little hint and lightly chastises me for being such a linear thinker then immediately praises me for being just so damn good, thorough, and quick about, well, being me.

I have been rather lucky in regards to my family I must say. Could be better, but a thing I have no power over could have turned out far worse than it has. Praise Jesus I was not born into an elite bloodline .

I think an ILI-Ni would spend most of his time dreaming and very little of his time doing.

I will admit to this as an dominant ILI. It is both relaxing and almost involuntary that I lose myself in the void of thought and possibility. Even now, I dream of all the things I could potentially be doing, yet here I am. I must make a greater effort to do instead of dream as if I accomplish but a fraction of my dreams, well, I'll at least get a footnote within future mainstream history books. I mean, people like Asimov, Aldrin, and Tolkien will get at least that a century or two from now at the very least. They are all far greater than I'll ever be, but even a small fraction of their success is well and truly within my grasp. My instincts tell me so, and far be it for me to distrust my primary ability .

The only problem is as you said, the call of the dreamlands is very strong indeed for my kind. It is in fact a fun fantasy of mine. I have days where I'd rather just sleep and dream. Yet biology only lets ya get so far with that. Once more an artifact of Darwin. Dreams are fun and all, but they don't fill your stomach, kill predators, or end threats to your own power/survival...

[FarDraft]

@FarDraft You've just nailed down my relationship with my LII cousin. He's often amazed by my feats of "analytical" thinking. He manages to confuse me on occasion with a riddle or a hypothetical problem, but then the way I eventually solve it and, because I love and respect him, drop all filters and actually voice out my thoughts as I do so, amazes him. He amazes me, in turn, in bringing up things in my analysis that I never dreamed of. I have failed to solve a few of his queries, at first, then he says something really out there from my perspective and then I well and fully get it. He has a good laugh, I kick myself metaphorically for not thinking of that aspect or catching that, in hindsight, obvious hint, then he states how he's surprised at how fast I got it after that little hint and lightly chastises me for being such a linear thinker then immediately praises me for being just so damn good, thorough, and quick about, well, being me.

I have been rather lucky in regards to my family I must say. Could be better, but a thing I have no power over could have turned out far worse than it has. Praise Jesus I was not born into an elite bloodline .



I will admit to this as an dominant ILI. It is both relaxing and almost involuntary that I lose myself in the void of thought and possibility. Even now, I dream of all the things I could potentially be doing, yet here I am. I must make a greater effort to do instead of dream as if I accomplish but a fraction of my dreams, well, I'll at least get a footnote within future mainstream history books. I mean, people like Asimov, Aldrin, and Tolkien will get at least that a century or two from now at the very least. They are all far greater than I'll ever be, but even a small fraction of their success is well and truly within my grasp. My instincts tell me so, and far be it for me to distrust my primary ability .

The only problem is as you said, the call of the dreamlands is very strong indeed for my kind. It is in fact a fun fantasy of mine. I have days where I'd rather just sleep and dream. Yet biology only lets ya get so far with that. Once more an artifact of Darwin. Dreams are fun and all, but they don't fill your stomach, kill predators, or end threats to your own power/survival...

Glad to see my interpretations aren't deluded. Also nice to see that you have a good relationship with your cousin and family in general. That's always good. I understand what you mean by your first paragraph. Many Ne-heavy LIIs always have some different way of looking at something that you could never have thought of. Ti LIIs are more linear, but they still have that scatter-brained aspect. I think ILIs have this too, to an extent, since Ni is a pretty strange function in and of itself. It's definitely less vocal, though.

Honestly, I think I'm Te subtype from a cognitive standpoint, but I'm also pretty inactive and lazy. I think through all the things I could do and plan proper time management but end up doing the same things I always do, which is to screw around here, reddit, or youtube. I'm always able to get my work done on time (somehow - maybe Stratiyevskaya was right), but there are a number of things I want to accomplish that I'm just not doing. I think a slow buildup is important for this kind of stuff. I've been forcing myself to exercise more and build good habits, which I've been keeping up with. I've also been reading and writing more. Some other steps are still called for, but it'll take time and effort until they do.

[Sol]

if by more strategic thinking to suppose longer time periods - base Ni types are more such. they may dream own life on all its lenght and how the process may be after centuries

if more detailed and clear planing - J-N types are more such. they have more realistic approch to planing. meanwhile do longer time plans than S types. the more stable and predictable situation is - the more effective J type will be

T and F is about what plans are. T - objective world planing, F - relations of people planing

from practical point, there should not be _significant_ difference in planning abbility on any time between any N types. except T/F, where T types better plan in logical regions and by logical methods. in case it's not olymplic games or there is a need in outstanding results

[FarDraft]

if by more strategic thinking to suppose longer time periods - base Ni types are more such. they may dream own life on all its lenght and how the process may be after centuries

if more detailed and clear planing - J-N types are more such. they have more realistic approch to planing. meanwhile do longer time plans than S types

T and F is about what plans are. T - objective world planing, F - relations of people planing

Why would an LII, who has Te ignoring and Se PoLR, have a more realistic plan than an ILI? Also, detailed, linear plans are more in the realm of NiTe rather than TiNe, which is more nonlinear.

[Sol]

Why would an LII, who has Te ignoring and Se PoLR, have a more realistic plan than an ILI?

It should be more realistic as J types relate more seriously to planing, what makes them as more rational and lesser dreamers. The plan appear as lesser accurate by the result, but it will be better designed and better explained from rational point, what implies better level of details. Base Ni do more abstract and lesser based planing as P types.

Te is strong at all T types and hence they deal good with it. To call strong function as "ignoring" is senseless. The term could be related to superego in stressed states, to weak and hence lesser conscious functions.
Se is nonvalued. Compared to ILI this means LII will think more about Si related as physical comfort and lesser about Se related as surface/secondary details of physical objects (which color will be a car to buy). But planning as a process relates to imagination and abstractions, - N. Which S is valued should not change the quality of a planing, in general.

When you'll understand correctly own type - you should understand better what the theory means and how it should be applied.

[FarDraft]

It should be more realistic as J types relate more seriously to planing, what makes them as more rational and lesser dreamers. The plan appear as lesser accurate by the result, but it will be better designed and better explained from rational point, what implies better level of details. Base Ni do more abstract and lesser based planing as P types.

Te is strong at all T types and hence they deal good with it. To call strong function as "ignoring" is senseless. The term could be related to superego in stressed states, to weak and hence lesser conscious functions.
Se is nonvalued. Compared to ILI this means LII will think more about Si related as physical comfort and lesser about Se related as surface/secondary details of physical objects (which color will be a car to buy). But planning as a process relates to imagination and abstractions, - N. Which S is valued should not change the quality of a planing, in general.

When you'll understand correctly own type - you should understand better what the theory means and how it should be applied.

Your analysis takes into consideration the dichotomies but not the functions, which is a problem since the functions are arguably the stronger method for determining type. For example, most EIIs aren't that realistic because of weak Te and PoLR Se. They're also prone to dreaming because of strong Ne and idealistic Fi. Their being rational means that they want to live a more structured life and have internal balance (Ij), not that they construct detailed plans on a regular basis. Also, you can't say that someone like an ESTp isn't realistic because they aren't a rational type, nor could you say that for an ISTp. It doesn't make sense. Realism mostly comes from strong sensing and Te with a preference for logic over ethics.

Moreover, ILIs, by pretty much all accounts, are the most detail oriented type do to NiTe valuing, Ne unvaluing, and process dichotomy fixation. You can't ignore all those facts in favour of their being a perceiving type - it's irrational.

Lastly, it makes perfect sense for a strong function to be ignored since it takes away time and energy from the dominant function, which is most valued. It's also clearly noticeable in people, where ILIs usually hate using Ne and LIIs usually hate using Te.

I don't claim to be an expert in socionics but your denying model A, Gulenko, and certain well analyzed Reinin dichotomies in favour of basic dichotomies makes no sense.

I should also add that the more I read into the system, the more I relate to the gamma quadra and ILI over LII. Literally nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You'll have to try harder to prove to me that you're correct. If you want to, you can go and respond to the criticisms I had of your logic in the last post and really try to prove me wrong. If not, then I don't believe you, and you can't make me.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...58#post1315358
The response is located in this post. I'm sure you can find it.
I'll be honest, in reading it, I wish I had phrased some things better and explained some things more rigorously. But I won't adjust my response since it's your move.

[Tallmo]

Why would an LII, who has Te ignoring and Se PoLR, have a more realistic plan than an ILI? Also, detailed, linear plans are more in the realm of NiTe rather than TiNe, which is more nonlinear.

LIIs are known to be pragmatic. The Se PoLR actually contributes to this. Instead of acting it out (Se) they make a pragmatic analysis. It is a way to compensate for the PoLR.

[FarDraft]

LIIs are known to be pragmatic. The Se PoLR actually contributes to this. Instead of acting it out (Se) they make a pragmatic analysis. It is a way to compensate for the PoLR.

This seems off to me since the PoLR, by definition, is an area of weakness. Could you give a few more examples for how you think this would manifest in other types? For example, how would Fe PoLR affect an ILI or Ni PoLR an LSE?

[FarDraft]

I considered the fact that my descriptions do sound like those of INTJ's in MBTI. It might be because I don't see a big difference between the descriptions in the two systems, and I might have a hard time seeing the Ni because I have Ni myself and kind of swim in it.

Yes, I actually do know a few ILI's in both business and academia who use their meticulous planning and knowledge for personal gain. Most are actually quite well-off. But the two I know in academia are not less motivated by personal gain because they are in academia. Rather, it is because one is probably an e9 and a genuinely nice guy who wants to teach, while the other is a computer systems manager for a college and wants to hide in the machine.
The differences between the ILI's whom I know seem to be based on enneagram rather than job descriptions. I think most of the ILI's I know are ILI-Te's. I think an ILI-Ni would spend most of his time dreaming and very little of his time doing.

Ah, ok. I knew enneagram made a difference (I noted it in one of my replies to this thread), but I wasn't certain how big the difference would be in comparison to the differences caused by subtypes. Many of them overlap, actually, which I think can make it difficult to discern between enneagram fixes and subtypes if we're not being careful. For example, 9s are naturally more focused on human connection (fear of loss), which could be seen as having heightened ethics, leading one to conclude that they are an Ni subtype. This may be the case (probably is most of the time), but motivations/fears need not affect cognition in the same way each time.