Tax the Catholic Church

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Well yes. Also Catholics were shocked that clergy in the very highest positions of the church are abusers and liars and have habitual despicable ways of deceitful living and speaking. Because like you we still mistakenly assume their holiness because in their positions they are called to be. Hypocrisy is offensive. I guess it's the same sort of shock when a teacher or doctor is unprofessional or abusive, or a parent is unloving or abusive..

You'd probably have to go back at least 40 years to find an especially objectionable Pope.

[End]

You'd probably have to go back at least 40 years to find an especially objectionable Pope.

Yeah, no. We are already suffering under an especially objectionable one. Pope Commie the Marx Idolater currently rots upon what ought to be the most holy throne. Such is our punishment IMO. It is, after all, the fault of the laity that things got this damned bad. It will be up to us to fix it as a result as well.

I think we will, but it'll take quite a lot of effort. Oh well, nothing us Gamma types ain't prepared for. Low time preference is kinda our thing, at least from the end...

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Yeah, no. We are already suffering under an especially objectionable one. Pope Commie the Marx Idolater currently rots upon what ought to be the most holy throne. Such is our punishment IMO. It is, after all, the fault of the laity that things got this damned bad. It will be up to us to fix it as a result as well.

I think we will, but it'll take quite a lot of effort. Oh well, nothing us Gamma types ain't prepared for. Low time preference is kinda our thing, at least from the end...

I was joking somewhat.

Of course Francis has his issues concerning female bishops, accepting homosexuality, and his silence during the time of the abuses carried out by the junta in Argentina.

Of course he might object to those who build walls rather than bridges, but he's a guy who allegedly still believes that it is justified for most of humanity to be tortured for eternity.

[Eliza Thomason]

Of course Francis has his issues ...his silence during the time of the abuses carried out by the junta in Argentina.

He is presented as kindly, but has a temper and is seen as the dictator pope ... and learning of his coverup and victimization of victims in Argentina - its not a pretty thing. But he is the ONE that the cabal* wanted as pope, and somehow, they got what they wanted.

[Subteigh, I have some thoughts on your hell comment, as I have been contemplating the topic some time, particularly because of previous sentiments you have expressed on it, so I will comment sometime - I am still tied up in many things right now.]

___
* cabal - like those infamous German bishops, like the ones who we see here when Pope Benedict visited his home country of Germany after he became pope. Clearly he was not the candidate they wanted, as you can see by their shameful behavior in the one minute video below. (These cardinals surely must represent the wolves he referred to in the Inaugural Mass in 2005, when he said, “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.” )

[Socionics Is A Cult]

He is presented as kindly, but has a temper and is seen as the dictator pope ... and learning of his coverup and victimization of victims in Argentina - its not a pretty thing. But he is the ONE that the cabal* wanted as pope, and somehow, they got what they wanted.

[Subteigh, I have some thoughts on your hell comment, as I have been contemplating the topic some time, particularly because of previous sentiments you have expressed on it, so I will comment sometime - I am still tied up in many things right now.]

___
* cabal - like those infamous German bishops, like the ones who we see here when Pope Benedict visited his home country of Germany after he became pope. Clearly he was not the candidate they wanted, as you can see by their shameful behavior in the one minute video below. (These cardinals surely must represent the wolves he referred to in the Inaugural Mass in 2005, when he said, “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.” )

I don't think I know of any popes I largely like.

I'm surprised that Catholics would call a Pope a dictator Pope, as I had thought there was a general sentiment that bishops elected their Popes guided by the Holy Spirit etc.

[Aylen]

I don't think I know of any popes I largely like.

I'm surprised that Catholics would call a Pope a dictator Pope, as I had thought there was a general sentiment that bishops elected their Popes guided by the Holy Spirit etc.

Or they were never guided by a holy spirit and just chose popes based on who would get them the most influence over the people. Maybe sometimes they needed a more passive pope who would bend to their will and other times a more dominating pope. Aren't most popes set up to be dictators anyway? Since that is kind of their job to tell people how to interpret god's word and to maintain hierarchy all the way down the pyramid until you get to the lower priests who deal with the congregations (who are at the very bottom)?

I kind of like this new guy. Not sure why. I am not catholic but something about him is, ok.

Maybe Catholics today are more savvy when it comes to politics, social issues and knowledge so instead of relying on holy men to interpret the word of god, or Jesus, they are just taking it upon themselves or letting secular groups (socionics) influence them more. When organized religions fall it will not be from the outside. It will come from those within the religion. They will no longer have blind faith and the people will turn on their leaders. What the result will look like, I don't know. Just some thoughts... We will probably be dead by then anyway.

[Metamorph]

When organized religions fall it will not be from the outside. It will come from those within the religion. They will no longer have blind faith and the people will turn on their leaders. What the result will look like, I don't know. Just some thoughts... We will probably be dead by then anyway.

I'm going to speak in favor of organized religions. I think it's good to have a community to belong to because otherwise you're just sitting in your room with Hindu Goddess Kali adult coloring books and chakra cleansing bottled tea shouting ungrammatical phrases in Sanskrit and that's no good. I don't like super hierarchical organized religions like the Roman Catholic Church though because those are just based on fear and people don't even know what they're supposed to believe, they just sit there waiting for people to tell them what to believe. I think there should be organized religions of freely-associating people without strict hierarchies. It's really a matter of maturity in my opinion.

[Eliza Thomason]

I don't think I know of any popes I largely like.

I'm surprised that Catholics would call a Pope a dictator Pope*, as I had thought there was a general sentiment that bishops elected their Popes guided by the Holy Spirit etc.

Well as to the dictator, yes, he is described that way, and there is even a book of that title.

[A reviewer of The Dictator Pope writes: "The most valuable service provided by the author of The Dictator Pope is the psychological portrait of Pope Francis: manipulative, hypersensitive, and often downright vindictive—certainly not the cheerful populist that his supporters make him out to be."]

I have seen the vindictiveness and been shocked by it. Not something one would ever see in the previous two, who were more lambs. Also this pope has an amazing amount of sketchy buddies and advisors, and I haven't heard of any admirable ones yet (except the ones he mistreats). I also liked him at first, particularly because of his kindly ways and "humility". That was truly my impression, and I rejoiced in it. But now that the first impression is gone by and I have seen him and heard him in action, I would certainly not call him either. I liked the previous two popes, the only ones who have been popes since I have been Catholic, so the bad surprises of this pope have inspired me to learn about many of the previous popes. I learned that even the ones I like much more, because of all their good works, have issues [though they seem more like blind spots than what I judge to be character flaws in this one]. So, it's true, popes are not infallible persons, it's just that they can make infallible pronouncements. [But they don't do that often - and recent ones seem to avoid it. A pope is only infallible when speaking "ex cathedra", or, from the chair - and that last happened about 100 years ago).]

I heard there were some impressive Pius', over the years. Here is a Pius Clock with the last 12 Pius' on it:


[There is a Hollywood movie out with a Hollywood version of what a Pius XIII would be like and I listened to a review of it. (A mixed bag; it's not deeply insightful).]

As to elected popes being guided by the Holy Spirit, they certainly are. But the problem is people can ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit. People can actually not hear God's will because of their own will or because they are living separated from God because of serious sin that lords over their life that they have not repented of. (Looks at the red-hats in that Benedict video I posted. Who do you think is lord over their life and will?).

But in spite of our infallibility, whoever is elected pope is leading the church, however badly. Jesus speaks to him, and I guess he must listen, at least sometimes (But we know God does not override his or anyone's will). The Apostle the Iscariot was a chosen-twelve Apostle even though Jesus knew how bad his heart was. God works with cracked pots and somehow gets the job done. We have a long history of bad popes (and good, holy ones, and even Saint ones) so we've been through this before. I learned early on, before converting, the amazing truth that no bad pope has ever infallibly taught an untruth about faith and morals. One can read all about miraculous reigns of bad popes over the centuries and how they were prevented from an intention to infallibly teach falsehoods on faith and morals (which would thereby change the infallible teaching of the Church on faith and morals) because in every case, as they got closer to this manifesting their intention, they either converted, died, or had a change of heart just before doing so.

That has driven home the reality that the infallible words of a pope has nothing to do with blabbing to newspapermen on jet planes. I expect this pope, being a regular person like the rest of us, will either get much worse, or he will convert (Because people don't just stay the same. They choose a path and go that way.). There is a lot of people praying for the latter, including me! Daily.

Mystics have said of the Church today that it is "the time of the laity" and there is a lot of talk about what that might mean. I don't know, but I know I have learned a lot about faith and the teachings of the Church not from clergy but from lay people, so that I, like legions of other lay people, recognize misteachings from the highest places of the Church as soon as I hear them. [to be fair, many of these lay people refer he works of great Saints, bishops, and religious of the past and we learn from them]. We have many priests, bishops and cardinals today who pledged to teach the faith and don't, and haven't for decades. So now well-informed lay persons are teaching the lay persons, and informed communities are sprouting up everywhere. It is invigorating to meet more and more once-lost people, who now feel informed and guided. I meet them in parishes and gatherings everywhere, as well as online. Another thing the "time of the laity" might mean is that many lay persons are praying the Church into reform. I am trying, and I know so many who are trying even harder and more faithfully.

My husband and I are really enjoying lately learning and getting real perspective on what is going on now through watching the Taylor Marshall and Tim Gordon videos. They add some humor as well as historical perspective on what is happening in the Church today. Humor helps a weighty subject. Like last night we watched one (on the topic of describing what is excommunication) where Tim Gordon was making a comparison of many the American Bishops, particularly Archbishop Dolan of NY, being just like Michael Scott of The Office. Yes, there is a real lack of manliness in the fatherhood of these bishops, and there is a real parallel to Michael Scott, in that same sort of self-conscious, self-important, weak, pathetic way.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Well as to the dictator, yes, he is described that way, and there is even a book of that title.

[A reviewer of The Dictator Pope writes: "The most valuable service provided by the author of The Dictator Pope is the psychological portrait of Pope Francis: manipulative, hypersensitive, and often downright vindictive—certainly not the cheerful populist that his supporters make him out to be."]

I have seen the vindictiveness and been shocked by it. Not something one would ever see in the previous two, who were more lambs. Also this pope has an amazing amount of sketchy buddies and advisors, and I haven't heard of any admirable ones yet (except the ones he mistreats). I also liked him at first, particularly because of his kindly ways and "humility". That was truly my impression, and I rejoiced in it. But now that the first impression is gone by and I have seen him and heard him in action, I would certainly not call him either. I liked the previous two popes, the only ones who have been popes since I have been Catholic, so the bad surprises of this pope have inspired me to learn about many of the previous popes. I learned that even the ones I like much more, because of all their good works, have issues [though they seem more like blind spots than what I judge to be character flaws in this one]. So, it's true, popes are not infallible persons, it's just that they can make infallible pronouncements. [But they don't do that often - and recent ones seem to avoid it. A pope is only infallible when speaking "ex cathedra", or, from the chair - and that last happened about 100 years ago).]

I heard there were some impressive Pius', over the years. Here is a Pius Clock with the last 12 Pius' on it:


[There is a Hollywood movie out with a Hollywood version of what a Pius XIII would be like and I listened to a review of it. (A mixed bag; it's not deeply insightful).]

As to elected popes being guided by the Holy Spirit, they certainly are. But the problem is people can ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit. People can actually not hear God's will because of their own will or because they are living separated from God because of serious sin that lords over their life that they have not repented of. (Looks at the red-hats in that Benedict video I posted. Who do you think is lord over their life and will?).

But in spite of our infallibility, whoever is elected pope is leading the church, however badly. Jesus speaks to him, and I guess he must listen, at least sometimes (But we know God does not override his or anyone's will). The Apostle the Iscariot was a chosen-twelve Apostle even though Jesus knew how bad his heart was. God works with cracked pots and somehow gets the job done. We have a long history of bad popes (and good, holy ones, and even Saint ones) so we've been through this before. I learned early on, before converting, the amazing truth that no bad pope has ever infallibly taught an untruth about faith and morals. One can read all about miraculous reigns of bad popes over the centuries and how they were prevented from an intention to infallibly teach falsehoods on faith and morals (which would thereby change the infallible teaching of the Church on faith and morals) because in every case, as they got closer to this manifesting their intention, they either converted, died, or had a change of heart just before doing so.

That has driven home the reality that the infallible words of a pope has nothing to do with blabbing to newspapermen on jet planes. I expect this pope, being a regular person like the rest of us, will either get much worse, or he will convert (Because people don't just stay the same. They choose a path and go that way.). There is a lot of people praying for the latter, including me! Daily.

Mystics have said of the Church today that it is "the time of the laity" and there is a lot of talk about what that might mean. I don't know, but I know I have learned a lot about faith and the teachings of the Church not from clergy but from lay people, so that I, like legions of other lay people, recognize misteachings from the highest places of the Church as soon as I hear them. [to be fair, many of these lay people refer he works of great Saints, bishops, and religious of the past and we learn from them]. We have many priests, bishops and cardinals today who pledged to teach the faith and don't, and haven't for decades. So now well-informed lay persons are teaching the lay persons, and informed communities are sprouting up everywhere. It is invigorating to meet more and more once-lost people, who now feel informed and guided. I meet them in parishes and gatherings everywhere, as well as online. Another thing the "time of the laity" might mean is that many lay persons are praying the Church into reform. I am trying, and I know so many who are trying even harder and more faithfully.

My husband and I are really enjoying lately learning and getting real perspective on what is going on now through watching the Taylor Marshall and Tim Gordon videos. They add some humor as well as historical perspective on what is happening in the Church today. Humor helps a weighty subject. Like last night we watched one (on the topic of describing what is excommunication) where Tim Gordon was making a comparison of many the American Bishops, particularly Archbishop Dolan of NY, being just like Michael Scott of The Office. Yes, there is a real lack of manliness in the fatherhood of these bishops, and there is a real parallel to Michael Scott, in that same sort of self-conscious, self-important, weak, pathetic way.

Papal infallibility is a meaningless concept. No one is infallible.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

According to Christian doctrine, all Christians are saints - there is no other qualification.

[Aylen]

Yeah, no. We are already suffering under an especially objectionable one. Pope Commie the Marx Idolater currently rots upon what ought to be the most holy throne. Such is our punishment IMO. It is, after all, the fault of the laity that things got this damned bad. It will be up to us to fix it as a result as well.

I think we will, but it'll take quite a lot of effort. Oh well, nothing us Gamma types ain't prepared for. Low time preference is kinda our thing, at least from the end...

Perhaps you would enjoy going back to simpler times, like the holy inquisition? As long as you are sure you would not be labeled a heretic yourself it just might suit you.

[End]

Perhaps you would enjoy going back to simpler times, like the holy inquisition? As long as you are sure you would not be labeled a heretic yourself it just might suit you.

Far as I'm concerned Torquemada dindu nuffin wrong. The Church is indeed in need of a good old fashioned Inquisition to purge itself of the pedos and heretics currently infesting its highest offices. It must be focused internally of course. As the lord himself said, pull out the plank in your own eye before complaining of the mote within the other's eye so to speak.

I have always seen myself as a good candidate for the Inquisition as well. I'd be merciful enough, but heresy is heresy. Got far too many people worshiping celebrities and pop culture characters instead of actual "gods" (let alone the one true God) as our ancestors understood the term. At least the pagans had something deeper than such passing fads and shallow personalities! If only I could face a horde of true believers in Satan or the Norse Pantheon, of heathens and heretics that I could at least understand! Instead, I face a tide of worshipers of Intersectional Social Justice in one form or another. Gotta say, I feel utterly robbed. Why is my ultimate foe so... pathetic?