Can you help? Am I ENFp or INFp?

[ToTheMoon]

@Oppai Anschluss thanks for your dissection!

Sounds like behavior that Delta NFs would be aghast over. Is your change in behavior authentic for you or an imposition due to social expectations?

I'd say it's authentic. I didn't feel good about all those judgments. I mean, I was super insecure and knew that I was. I felt much better when I finally let myself have some new experiences that I'd judge as worthless before. Once I opened my mind to different views and possibilities of expression, it felt very liberating. So I'd call that authentic becasue it feels good to be where I am now and it didn't where I was back then. I did take it too far and made a doormat out of myself for a while and felt awful about it. Like I said, I'm working on balancing myself now.

Ne-ego often seem to explicitly want routine that doesn't require much mental presence, either for a sense of security in repetition or to enable them to daydream about things outside of the job that actually do interest them.

Hmm, I do like that kind of routine. Probably why I like my current job where most of what I do is mindlessly search the internet for new items for my shop, then I mindlessly photograph my items and mindlessly edit them. I can sort of daydream all throught that time. I actually dislike the part where I need to describe the items because I do have to be present .

Sounds like weak Si (potentially unvalued?) or you have self-preservation low in your Enneagram.

Don't know about Si (need to learn how it's defined in socionics vs mbti) but my Enneagram stack it likely so/sx.

Weak Te? Valued or unvalued?

Again, I need to improve my knowledge to answer that.

Sounds very Ni. Ego or Demonstrative?

How do I tell the difference? That's what I've been getting at with being unable to type myself as one type over the other.

Hmm. You say a lot of things in the video that sound antagonistic of Se (is this because super-ego Se or social expectation?). Some things which are stereotypically Fi (vocal concern for authenticity as a central value). Your space looks pretty minimalistic-yet-comfy (did you clean up for the video or are you only okay with "mess" compared to people that are really anal about that sort of thing?). You're cute but obviously anxious and I get the impression that a lot of Delta NFs give me--that if I were in the same room I'd have to be very careful not to break the Delta NF until that got too tiring and I'd want to start trolling the person.

Hahah, I knew someone would point out the minimalism and unmessiness in the vid. I pondered moving the camera to show you the mess I moved to the other corner of the room for the video . I always clean when I'm having guests. If I don't expect anyone, well, I'm just gonna let those dishes pile in the sink until they spill out and I run out of mugs for my coffee. As for minimalistic, I just don't mind not having stuff on my walls. I like aeclectic, cozy aesthetic with wood and natural fabrics and some useless trinkets that bring me some nostalgia, kinda like you'd imagine a cottage house maybe? Nothing modern or too clean and edgy. I've always been into old and used things. Old cameras, vintage and second-hand clothes, old furniture.
Interesting what you say about me appearing fragile and anxious. I wonder what vibe I give off in the real world, while talking to people. I've frequently been 'accused' of being self confident and decisive and conceited by people who don't know me well but had the possibility to observe me from a distance. Once they get to know me, they share their surprise with me at how nice I actually turn out to be.

Leaning Delta-NF from the video.

That would be ENFp and INFj, right?

Again, thanks for your comments. Food for thought. Gotta read more now.

[Sisyphean]

@Oppai Anschluss thanks for your dissection!

I'd say it's authentic. I didn't feel good about all those judgments. I mean, I was super insecure and knew that I was. I felt much better when I finally let myself have some new experiences that I'd judge as worthless before. Once I opened my mind to different views and possibilities of expression, it felt very liberating. So I'd call that authentic becasue it feels good to be where I am now and it didn't where I was back then. I did take it too far and made a doormat out of myself for a while and felt awful about it. Like I said, I'm working on balancing myself now.

I'm gonna chalk a lot of that up to growing up. The impulse itself that you eventually tempered sounds very much like outbursts Se dual-seeking OR disintegrated (enneagram) going into its super-ego in my opinion.

Hmm, I do like that kind of routine. Probably why I like my current job where most of what I do is mindlessly search the internet for new items for my shop, then I mindlessly photograph my items and mindlessly edit them. I can sort of daydream all throught that time. I actually dislike the part where I need to describe the items because I do have to be present .

My Ni is doorknob-licking retarded so I'll refer you to @Luminous Lynx to see if that kind of thing is what he would enjoy.

Don't know about Si (need to learn how it's defined in socionics vs mbti) but my Enneagram stack it likely so/sx.

Si roughly is the comfort, wellness, and pleasure seeking function. Si-ignoring in an SLE is often characterized by disregarding internal indications of injury, sickness, or fatigue in order to carry on with a given task. SEI's Si program is like the stereotypical "comfy mom" archetype.

Si for IEI is the "Role" function, or what people turn to when their Program + Creative functions aren't working. For IEE it's their Dual-Seeking or Suggestive function, love it but suck at it and look for it in others.

Si as Role Function (IEI, ILI)

The individual dislikes it when others emphasize the importance and need for physical rest, comfort, relaxation, enjoyment, taking it slowly, and activities that are supposed to bring these about, because they are already in a semi-relaxed state most of the time, and internally need just the opposite — activity, energetic action, resolve, stimulating new impressions. Rather than spend their time trying to "take it easy on themselves" and turning back to listen to their internal states, they need clear external actions and demands that direct their attention outside of themselves, towards concrete reality, and thus conquer and dispel their sense of detachment, uncertainty and hesitation.

Si as suggestive function in ILE (ENTp; Don Quixote) and IEE (ENFp; Huxley) - these sociotypes always move in the direction of places where there is physical comfort and constancy, pleasant sensations, and cannot deny themselves in this. Where they are physically comfortable, such places are good, even if they are very expensive. Love fine food, massage, rubbing. Having found one place where they feel comfortable, such as a restaurant - could go there for dinner across town. Avoid places which lack all of his needed physical facilities. Food lovers, slaves to their preferences and habits. If they have a sweet tooth, will consume sweets by kilograms. Often determines the state of their physical being by the words of others, easily suggestible by this. Sometimes can try to recreate at home the elements of the place where they felt most comfortable physically. Quickly become accustomed to the "good" and this becomes their weakness in the future - without it they cannot endure. Suggestible by authorities on issues of health - if he is told that he needs to have something treated, he will easily believe it. In this context, can fall prey to "snake oil physicians". May forget to eat on time or to take medicine, to sleep, thus are in need of caring parents or spouses.

Again, I need to improve my knowledge to answer that.

I gave you a link to the aspects of valued functions in the other thread. For an IEI Te is the vulnerable function but IEE has it as its Activating. For your job it might be described as "the business of your business." Managing the books, the numbers, and the processes.

Te as Vulnerable Function (IEI, SEI)

That is manifested as a skepticism and dislike for basing your beliefs, arguments, and actions on external sources of information. For instance, a SEI will rather trust the expertise of someone who seems to have hands-on experience, even if limited, than of someone who demonstrates to have read many books on the same subject. IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it. "Don't trust everything you read" is a typical sneer of this function, especially when applied to sources of information otherwise seen as neutral and reliable, such as encyclopedias and handbooks. Another manifestation is a dislike for dealing with issues involving efficiency, productivity, and factual accuracy of statements made; statements are made according to input from other functions, not from double-checks against external facts which are seen as of lesser relevance to the issue at hand. Types with this function lack confidence in their ability to find relevant information in outside sources.

Te as activating function in SEE (ESFp; Napoleon) and IEE (ENFp; Huxley) - for this individual knowledge is paramount, a measure of worth: "If there is something I don't know - I'm inferior". Therefore, very often they claim they know how something is done, while in reality not knowing it (often in hopes that they will research it later, and that no one will suspect that they were bluffing). Sometimes, in self-defense, you can hear them say "I don't know", shamefully admitting to their weakness. It is also important for them to have some personal territory, a place where they have the opportunity to be in charge. They love to learn, because acquired knowledge increases their self-esteem. Nothing pleases them more as to receive a high mark on some subject. Such person is very attentive to objective reality: any violation in the order of things stresses him. He likes to reinforce own claims with links to an authoritative sources, statistics and facts, but cannot analyze them in terms of understanding. His vocation: the keeper of factual knowledge. Can't stand any measure of chaos in information, when nothing is clear. In such situations, tries to simplify the information: "Do we have any actual, concrete facts and figures? Lets start with these. " "If there is order in my world - then I am good, if not - then I'm bad." Have a tendency to idealize their "objective" picture of the world and authoritative figures. That is, they view it as what actually exists, even if they are in error and many of their facts are specious. Often become followers of something, of some "order of things" and attempt to implement this order everywhere. Getting promoted to higher position usually recruit "their" people who accept their "order of things" and their actions. Very important concept for them: "If I am the owner, I am the boss in my territory." It does not matter what the size of this territory is: a room or an entire state, as long as their authority has been accepted by everyone. Sometimes this takes a comical shape: a guard of some area considers himself to be in the right to decide whether or not to let you in based on his personal whims. In personal life, this can lead to elevated demands placed on potential partners: it is necessary to fully accept all of their outward actions, but this can be done only up to certain extent. Often they are aware that finding such ideal in principle not possible. Violation of the order of things by their subordinates is a serious offense - have you arrived too late? Thus you destroyed his order. If he is not the boss, then it is important for him to know exactly the extent of his responsibilities, otherwise he may not take up someone else's "order of things." Love to order people around if opportunity presents itself: relatives, subordinates, depending on how far their concept of territory extends itself.

How do I tell the difference? That's what I've been getting at with being unable to type myself as one type over the other.

Sorry I had the Id functions backwards for IEE. It would be ignoring for IEE.

Ni as leading function in IEI (INFp; Esenin) and ILI (INTp; Balzac) - this person considers himself to be very ideological, consistent, principled, and is very conservative in this. Becomes irritated by those who criticize his ideas. He lives by the "wholeness" of the internal situation. Often able to see "through" things, to the inner essence of something or someone. Romantic and idealist. Lives by his internal harmony, tranquility, serenity, is able to draw inspiration within himself, and gets annoyed by those who try to disturb it. Generally does not like when people try to look inside of him, gets frustrated and angry when this happens. Strives to be inwardly calm in all situations and internally consistent. "Fluid like a river": involuntarily adjusts himself to the interlocutor in conversation by taking form of consciousness that is best fitted for the situation. By this he isn't playing a role, his consciousness is simply multifaceted and he is directed by his inner "wholeness". That is, he simply presents a version of himself. Communicating with you, he always feels your moods as if he is living through them together with you, adjusts himself to this. Loves to introspect and to meditate. In case of failure, can make a qualitative self-analysis. Being present in some place he as if tunes himself out, tries to become invisible like a chameleon, especially if he perceives it as a threat to his inner tranquility: for example, in the workplace so that no one bothers him. Can even hide it in some clever way: arrange a barricade of folders so that behind them he is not visible. Does not like restless, internally discordant individuals, as their state can get transmitted to him, will try to escape from their company at any price. This is especially funny in a situation where a male representative of this type flees from ladies, and they pursue him like prey, because they feel that he has something that they so desperately need: inner peace. But for him this inner "wholeness" is not the product but material for inner consumption, so he can only share this with a small number of people, but sometimes someone might snatch a piece - this makes him very angry. Often, especially in circle of family, he becomes a critic, since deviation in behavior away from his principles turns him aggressive. If in another situation he will somehow restrain himself, at home he may allow himself to explode with anger.

Ni as Ignoring Function (ILE, IEE)

The individual understands discussions and arguments focused on following past trends into the future and their possible implications, as well as on exploring one specific imaginative vision of personal meaning. However he is disinterested in this type of information or even annoyed by excessive focus on it. He much prefers being originator of new trends starting from a present point in time and reality, exploring all the current potentialities and possibilities that lie ahead, however unlikely and imaginative, rather than concentrating on past repeating itself.

Hahah, I knew someone would point out the minimalism and unmessiness in the vid. I pondered moving the camera to show you the mess I moved to the other corner of the room for the video . I always clean when I'm having guests. If I don't expect anyone, well, I'm just gonna let those dishes pile in the sink until they spill out and I run out of mugs for my coffee. As for minimalistic, I just don't mind not having stuff on my walls. I like aeclectic, cozy aesthetic with wood and natural fabrics and some useless trinkets that bring me some nostalgia, kinda like you'd imagine a cottage house maybe? Nothing modern or too clean and edgy.

Well shit that almost sounds like my apartment half the time lol. Dishes don't get done until it's time to cook again. If you had a roommate whose whole thing was to keep that stuff tidy and "homey" would that just be the best for you or would you respond more "lol okay. w/e" and get a little irritated over time?

I've lived with neat freaks and it kind of made me want to lose my mind.

Interesting what you say about me appearing fragile and anxious. I wonder what vibe I give off in the real world, while talking to people. I've frequently been 'accused' of being self confident and decisive and conceited by people who don't know me well but had the possibility to observe me from a distance. Once they get to know me, they share their surprise with me at how nice I actually turn out to be.

This is why I'm not typically a fan of video typing people more than talking to them. People get nervous and come off totally different, or try to fill an expected role, or be crowd-pleasing. People would type me as some sort of mega introvert if I made a video.

That would be ENFp and INFj, right?

Again, thanks for your comments. Food for thought. Gotta read more now.

Yup, it would be one of those types but I'm not the biggest fan of video typing and I keep coming back around to your very hostile reactions to novel ideas. Every Delta NF I've interacted with is extremely accomodating of novel notions on the pretext of being kind or "if it's authentic to them, then it's just as valid." My stereotype is that a Delta NF would say identifying your gender as a car radio is just as good as anything else, and that I'm a huge jerk for making that joke. Never seen an obviously disintegrated Delta NF, tho, so

[Memento Mori]

My Ni is doorknob-licking retarded so I'll refer you to @Luminous Lynx to see if that kind of thing is what he would enjoy.

The reference: "Hmm, I do like that kind of routine. Probably why I like my current job where most of what I do is mindlessly search the internet for new items for my shop, then I mindlessly photograph my items and mindlessly edit them. I can sort of daydream all throught that time. I actually dislike the part where I need to describe the items because I do have to be present"

Nope, that sounds like fresh hell lmao. That's the kind of thing I'd do for my mates if they asked, but it'd bore me to tears occupationally. For many, a job that is too demanding is 'work'. A job that is not engaging enough to me is not a thing at all, it's just coasting for a paycheck. For me the key is how engaged I am. Regardless of how demanding or how lax a thing is, I need to be engaged and I need to have passion for the thing I'm doing or I quickly feel I'm trapped in a mind-numbing routine, which is about the last thing I'd ever want. A fulfilling job shouldn't feel like 'work' most of the time, but the engaging and the passionate is typically somewhat demanding, thus leisure rarely factors in. If I'm daydreaming that means I'm not being engaged; as an Ni program/Si role, I already have enough need of Se to bring me out of my comfortable shell of surrealist imagination.

[ToTheMoon]

The reference: "Hmm, I do like that kind of routine. Probably why I like my current job where most of what I do is mindlessly search the internet for new items for my shop, then I mindlessly photograph my items and mindlessly edit them. I can sort of daydream all throught that time. I actually dislike the part where I need to describe the items because I do have to be present"

Nope, that sounds like fresh hell lmao. That's the kind of thing I'd do for my mates if they asked, but it'd bore me to tears occupationally. For many, a job that is too demanding is 'work'. A job that is not engaging enough to me is not a thing at all, it's just coasting for a paycheck. For me the key is how engaged I am. Regardless of how demanding or how lax a thing is, I need to be engaged and I need to have passion for the thing I'm doing or I quickly feel I'm trapped in a mind-numbing routine, which is about the last thing I'd ever want. A fulfilling job shouldn't feel like 'work' most of the time, but the engaging and the passionate is typically somewhat demanding, thus leisure rarely factors in. If I'm daydreaming that means I'm not being engaged; as an Ni program/Si role, I already have enough need of Se to bring me out of my comfortable shell of surrealist imagination.

Oh, I see. Well, I've been super engaged in my previous job as a graphic designer and let me tell you, THAT was hell to me. The constant feeling I wasn't good enough (the fact that I didn't have any formal education played into that), the high expectations vs perceived poor outcomes, the horrible way my client relationships always turned out... ugh. It was engaging, yes, but in the worst way possible. How I was able to do that for 10 years remains a mystery to me. Maybe being Enneagram 9 has to do something with it. I just never properly focused on how much I disliked my job and just went with it just because.

[Beautiful sky]

Oh, I see. Well, I've been super engaged in my previous job as a graphic designer and let me tell you, THAT was hell to me. The constant feeling I wasn't good enough (the fact that I didn't have any formal education played into that), the high expectations vs perceived poor outcomes, the horrible way my client relationships always turned out... ugh. It was engaging, yes, but in the worst way possible. How I was able to do that for 10 years remains a mystery to me. Maybe being Enneagram 9 has to do something with it. I just never properly focused on how much I disliked my job and just went with it just because.

Very stoic of you enduring difficult circumstances with commitment.

[Dee]

You seem very balanced and to have a strong nervous system. You seem introverted or on meds. I would say IJ + F. NOT INFj as they are way more dynamic. So my guess is ISFj, which a is a bit backed up by my VI of you as ISFj/ENTp/ISTp.

Edit: IEE >> IEI by VI imo, though if you are IEE you must be on heavy sedatives as they are WAAAAY more dynamic.

[ToTheMoon]

You seem very balanced and to have a strong nervous system. You seem introverted or on meds. I would say IJ + F. NOT INFj as they are way more dynamic. So my guess is ISFj, which a is a bit backed up by my VI of you as ISFj/ENTp/ISTp.

Edit: IEE >> IEI by VI imo, though if you are IEE you must be on heavy sedatives as they are WAAAAY more dynamic.

Hahah, I'm not on meds . Although I am just recovering from a very low episode so that could have contributed to me being less energetic in the video. Or the fact that I was a bit self-conscious because of being recorded. I have another vid that I made a couple of months ago, it's more upbeat. Should I share it for comparison's sake?

Not sure about being balanced and with a strong nervous system, that'd be a new one. I definitely don't identify with S, though.

[Memento Mori]

You seem very balanced and to have a strong nervous system. You seem introverted or on meds. I would say IJ + F. NOT INFj as they are way more dynamic. So my guess is ISFj, which a is a bit backed up by my VI of you as ISFj/ENTp/ISTp.

Edit: IEE >> IEI by VI imo, though if you are IEE you must be on heavy sedatives as they are WAAAAY more dynamic.

What do You mean by dynamic, and why is that Vi range encompass so much variability? Those three types are starkly different, from different quadra, and value many different IEs. Again. "Dynamic" confuses me in a behavioral sense. What would that look like? Your reasoning also heavily relies on appearances, which themselves can be obfuscated by varying factors. Can You demonstrate the methodological reasoning for her valued IEs? If she's ESI, can You explain the Se? If she's IEE, can You explain why she's Program Ne (and so forth)?

[Sol]

mb LII

love is the union of minds/souls when the borders between the individs become small. the own Self becomes below united We

[ToTheMoon]

mb LII

love is the union of minds/souls when the borders between the individs become small. the own Self becomes below united We

Thanks for your input. I started looking into Thinking types and LII is one of the possibilities.
I think I need to read thoroughly on all the types and then see which one rings most true in its essence.

I just wonder now. Should I go by functions or by descriptions?

[Sol]

Want to mention, that to describe people as an environment is an argument to assume T type as rather more possible.

[Sol]

@ToTheMoon
you got ISFJ there
you have E. among F types there is a possibility for SEE and ENFJ

In OP, my main functions are Si/Fe so that's an ISFJ/ISFp

It would be ISFP and ESFJ, non of which is correct.
Also MBTI followers as that "OP" have as good described only preferences. While their functions descriptions are taken from Jung's expanded functions interpretations, are rather shortly described and partly incorrectly - they are bad there. MBTI never used functions much to type people to develop this theory and how to use it, which is so bad that they can't notice mistakes with their introverted types models (which contradict to Jung).

[ToTheMoon]

I'm gonna chalk a lot of that up to growing up. The impulse itself that you eventually tempered sounds very much like outbursts Se dual-seeking in my opinion. The function we need and try (clumsily and simplistically) to manifest ourselves when we aren't getting enough of it. LSI's allegedly will have some poorly received Fe outbursts from time to time looking for their dual.

Okay, I'm not sure I get the whole theory behind what you just wrote but I'll educate myself so thanks for pointing this out.

Si roughly is the comfort, wellness, and pleasure seeking function. Si-ignoring in an SLE is often characterized by disregarding internal indications of injury, sickness, or fatigue in order to carry on with a given task. SEI's Si program is like the stereotypical "comfy mom" archetype.

Si for IEI is the "Role" function, or what people turn to when their Program + Creative functions aren't working. For IEE it's their Dual-Seeking or Suggestive function, love it but suck at it and look for it in others.

Okay, so what about having it both ways? I'm a very passive person, I'd just stay at home my whole life and I've always dreamt of someone who would activate me. It's easy for me to relax and do nothing, so much so, that I finally get restless and angry, especaially when someone insists on just staying still. Not that I would ever express that anger openly but I'm working on that .

On the other hand I do like it when someone offers to take me to a restaurant and lures me with fine food. But now that I think of it, maybe it's more because I feel teased that someone would spend their time with me (and their money on me) and 'show me off' rather than because of the food&comfort itself? Okay, so probably the first option for me then, Role function!

I gave you a link to the aspects of valued functions in the other thread. For an IEI Te is the vulnerable function but IEE has it as its Activating. For your job it might be described as "the business of your business." Managing the books, the numbers, and the processes.

Oh, sorry, I'm a bit owerwhelmed by all the responses I got here, I may have missed your link. I'll go look for it. I can't say I'm connecting with either of Te descriptions too much.

Sorry I had the Id functions backwards for IEE. It would be ignoring for IEE. I definitely don't see Ni-ignoring in what you described.

Ni as leading sounds familiar to me although I'm not sure I'm so 'stoic' and detached.

Well shit that almost sounds like my apartment half the time lol. Dishes don't get done until it's time to cook again. If you had a roommate whose whole thing was to keep that stuff tidy and "homey" would that just be the best for you or would you respond more "lol okay. w/e" and get a little irritated over time?

I've lived with neat freaks and it kind of made me want to lose my mind.

Hmm, I guess I just don't care much? I've lived with a boyfriend who liked to clean and I was okay with that. I mean I'm not opposed to having a clean home . As long as he didn't tell me that I should get more organized/remember to put dishes in the dishwasher myself, I was fine.

This is why I'm not typically a fan of video typing people more than talking to them. People get nervous and come off totally different, or try to fill an expected role, or be crowd-pleasing. People would type me as some sort of mega introvert if I made a video.

Yes, that has crossed my mind.

Yup, it would be one of those types but I'm not the biggest fan of video typing and I keep coming back around to your very hostile reactions to novel ideas. Every Delta NF I've interacted with is extremely accomodating of novel notions on the pretext of being kind or "if it's authentic to them, then it's just as valid." My stereotype is that a Delta NF would say identifying your gender as a car radio is just as good as anything else, and that I'm a huge jerk for making that joke.

[/QUOTE]

Okay, so maybe a bit of a backstory is needed here. I was brought up by a single mother who was (is) extremly judgmental and uber-controlling and aggresive towards the world (I think she's ESTJ if that helps). She was also violent, both emotionally and physically. In order to, umm, survive her, I just took in everything she said and thought, all of her opinions and her way of being with people. I mimicked her. She would not have me another way, the only correct way to do things was her way. There was no other adult around me to show me a different approach to life and people, no alternative role model. I never rebelled against my mother, not until I was (gasp) about 25. By then I think her steel grip on me lightened slightly and I figured I could have my own opinions on things. That's when I started to see that being judgmental and opinionated at that is actually draining for me and that I'm way more relaxed when I go with 'live and let live' attitude and curiosity about things that are different. That, in itself, was a rebellion and it still creates tension between us whenever I try to show her that others' points of view are valuable and valid, while she insists that they don't get the whole picture (and she does) and I'm flighty and should have strong opinions on things (I do but in a different way than her, so...).
So there's that.

[Sisyphean]

Okay, I'm not sure I get the whole theory behind what you just wrote but I'll educate myself so thanks for pointing this out.

As a big asterisk on this, I have my own personal theory that people who are "disintegrated" in an Enneagram sense fall into their super-ego functions (alternate axis of your Program and Creative) and behave badly like their impressions of their least compatible types. As an example, I know an LII (Ti Ne) who went through a very bad time and coped very poorly, and tried to compensate by acting like a bad caricature of an SEE (Se Fi). That may also explain my confusion given what you said about your experience with your mom. If this is true a disintegrated EII or IEE might behave like an unhealthy SLE or LSI respectively. As an SLE, novelty for its own sake to humor someone's "inner authenticity" tends to piss me off and on a bad day I might tell it to fuck off.

The suggestive or "dual-seeking" function is the function on the other end of the axis of your lead/program function. Se-lead SLEs and SEEs have Ni suggestive. In intertype relation theory, a type's "dual" is the type who has your suggestive as their lead/program, and your activating/mobilizing as their creative function, so all the things you like but suck at are the things they like and are best at. The things you desire are the things they just simply are. The theory with the dual-seeking function is that when the environment and people around aren't giving as much of it as a person needs the person will try to generate that themselves to get some and effectively send out an SOS for their dual. But the Suggestive Function is the one we value and are worst at, so it's a very basic and clumsy manifestation.

An IEE's dual is SLI, and EII's dual is LSE.

IEE - Ne Fi
SLI - Si Te
EII - Fi Ne
LSE - Te Si

An IEI's dual is SLE
IEI - Ni Fe
SLE - Se Ti

Oh, sorry, I'm a bit owerwhelmed by all the responses I got here, I may have missed your link. I'll go look for it. I can't say I'm connecting with either of Te descriptions too much.

No worries, just making sure you didn't miss it. Does this Te sound more like you?

Te as suggestive function in ESI (ISFj; Dreiser) and EII (INFj; Dostoyevsky) - this person easily believes in facts and figures, often turn a deaf ear to everything but these. Keeps to places where he knows what to do in every situation. Suggestible by the external order of things, which is often the order that was in place during his upbringing: the political system, social norms, etc. Reacts sensitively to social changes: "God grant you do not live in an era of change." Always moves in the direction of highest order and carefully avoids chaos, is inspired by this order and worries that in future it might change. In this regard, may gravitate towards work in the military, which has the force of statute. It is important to him that the environment is always organized in accordance to rules and laws that he is accustomed to, that this order does not contradict the facts of objective reality. It is also important to know who should be in what position, what needs to be done, what documents must be collected, for what purpose, where they should be submitted, what is the correct way to fill them out. Feels most comfortable in situations where there is only one interpretation of correct action, without any admixture with elements of subjectivity: "in this such case, this should be done". Knowledge of the facts of the situation often replaces true understanding of the underlying problems. Understanding becomes superficial, simply a collection of surface data and statistics, laws and regulations. He does not like long and detailed explanations, will immediately interrupt and say: "So what is this in actuality?". He wants to get a working solution or order right away, not the rationale behind it. For example: "2x2=4." This is an already established rule. Likes terminology, you can sometimes talk to him only using some accepted terms and this will be sufficient. Does not like those who destroy the norms of behavior, for example, those who break the chain of command. Especially gets influenced by the facts that he sees with his own eyes or can touch with own hands. Thus he can fall victim to scams that provide specious claims and facts, especially if the scam is done out in the open ("simple dexterity of hands and no tricks").

Ni as leading sounds familiar to me although I'm not sure I'm so 'stoic' and detached.

How about this. If you're EII instead of IEE you would have Demonstrative Ni as your strongest non-valued function

Ni as Demonstrative Function (EII, LII)

The individual is quite adept at following discussions on the developments of present trends into the future and their meaning, and contributing to them on occasion if he feels so inclined, but he does not take that as seriously compared to investigating and bring up to discussion new alternatives and possible topics in the areas he is interested in at present. He usually dismisses if not outright ridicules claims that everything is set and will continue along the same path and instead prefers to bring up to discussion potential variations and ways out, unusual and rare possibilities, new horizons and enterprising ideas.

Okay, so maybe a bit of a backstory is needed here. I was brought up by a single mother who was (is) extremly judgmental and uber-controlling and aggresive towards the world (I think she's ESTJ if that helps). She was also violent, both emotionally and physically. In order to, umm, survive her, I just took in everything she said and thought, all of her opinions and her way of being with people. I mimicked her. She would not have me another way, the only correct way to do things was her way. There was no other adult around me to show me a different approach to life and people, no alternative role model. I never rebelled against my mother, not until I was (gasp) about 25. By then I think her steel grip on me lightened slightly and I figured I could have my own opinions on things. That's when I started to see that being judgmental and opinionated at that is actually draining for me and that I'm way more relaxed when I go with 'live and let live' attitude and curiosity about things that are different. That, in itself, was a rebellion and it still creates tension between us whenever I try to show her that others' points of view are valuable and valid, while she insists that they don't get the whole picture (and she does) and I'm flighty and should have strong opinions on things (I do but in a different way than her, so...).
So there's that.

Youch, sorry to hear that. Glad yougot yourself into a better spot, tho. Assuming my hunch about Enneagram disintegration is accurate that would explain my confusion about your earlier phase. Sorry for any confusion mine may have caused.

[ToTheMoon]

As a big asterisk on this, I have my own personal theory that people who are "disintegrated" in an Enneagram sense fall into their super-ego functions (alternate axis of your Program and Creative) and behave badly like their impressions of their least compatible types. As an example, I know an LII (Ti Ne) who went through a very bad time and coped very poorly, and tried to compensate by acting like a bad caricature of an SEE (Se Fi). That may also explain my confusion given what you said about your experience with your mom. If this is true a disintegrated EII or IEE might behave like an unhealthy SLE or LSI respectively. As an SLE, novelty for its own sake to humor someone's "inner authenticity" tends to piss me off and on a bad day I might tell it to fuck off.

That sounds sound to me, but naturally I'm no expert. It does seem to explain the effect my bringing up had on me so why not, I'm gonna say you're onto something .

The suggestive or "dual-seeking" function is the function on the other end of the axis of your lead/program function. Se-lead SLEs and SEEs have Ni suggestive. In intertype relation theory, a type's "dual" is the type who has your suggestive as their lead/program, and your activating/mobilizing as their creative function, so all the things you like but suck at are the things they like and are best at. The things you desire are the things they just simply are. The theory with the dual-seeking function is that when the environment and people around aren't giving as much of it as a person needs the person will try to generate that themselves to get some and effectively send out an SOS for their dual. But the Suggestive Function is the one we value and are worst at, so it's a very basic and clumsy manifestation.

An IEE's dual is SLI, and EII's dual is LSE.

IEE - Ne Fi
SLI - Si Te
EII - Fi Ne
LSE - Te Si

An IEI's dual is SLE
IEI - Ni Fe
SLE - Se Ti

Hah, how fun. One of my best friends is a girl I met by complete chance for quasi-professional reasons and we just clicked. She's self-confirmed ESTJ. We just love each other to bits and somehow naturally do the right things for each other. When I think about my mother who I suspect is also ESTJ, she's very much like my friend, only kinda weirdly 'distorted' in some places.

No worries, just making sure you didn't miss it. Does this Te sound more like you?

Te as suggestive function in ESI (ISFj; Dreiser) and EII (INFj; Dostoyevsky)

I mean sometimes, maybe... But I might just be in denial about my Te .

How about this. If you're EII instead of IEE you would have Demonstrative Ni as your strongest non-valued function

Ni as Demonstrative Function (EII, LII)

This sounds pretty true to me. Although I think I've now reached that zone where anything sounds kinda true (except for things that don't make any sense but that's a pretty low threshold). I need to refresh my brain .

Youch, sorry to hear that. Glad yougot yourself into a better spot, tho. Assuming my hunch about Enneagram disintegration is accurate that would explain my confusion about your earlier phase. Sorry for any confusion mine may have caused.

[/QUOTE]
No worries! It's in the past and I'm comfortable with it now. Thanks for your input and time, it's greatly appreciated.

[Sisyphean]

That sounds sound to me, but naturally I'm no expert. It does seem to explain the effect my bringing up had on me so why not, I'm gonna say you're onto something .

Awesome lol glad another person does. Seems to hold true across a number of examples.

Hah, how fun. One of my best friends is a girl I met by complete chance for quasi-professional reasons and we just clicked. She's self-confirmed ESTJ. We just love each other to bits and somehow naturally do the right things for each other. When I think about my mother who I suspect is also ESTJ, she's very much like my friend, only kinda weirdly 'distorted' in some places.

Duality is a shitload of fun if/when you can find it

I mean sometimes, maybe... But I might just be in denial about my Te .

lol likely. The suggestive function is the weakest that you like, so understandings of it are always dog shit. Ni to me may as well just be black magic. It exists behind an event horizon, cognitively, for me. The most I can conceptualize is "meaning" and its use only comes in quick flashes of insight that get translated through higher functions.

This sounds pretty true to me. Although I think I've now reached that zone where anything sounds kinda true (except for things that don't make any sense but that's a pretty low threshold). I need to refresh my brain .

lmao sounds good. Eventually comparison to other confirmed types can help dial some of this in. I was typed LSI-Se for a while but eventually it set in that I'm not 1-dimensional Fe (referring back to Luminous Lynx's link) like the LSI's on here.

No worries! It's in the past and I'm comfortable with it now. Thanks for your input and time, it's greatly appreciated.

That's great to hear and my pleasure.