Can you help? Am I ENFp or INFp?

[Chthonic Daydream]

You are my spirit animal. Er, human??
Whatever-- "It's so hard putting it into words" >> I felt that phrase in your video so hard. For every sequence of you shuffling, looking down, bouncing your eyes around the room rummaging for answers and words in your mind and trying to buy some time because "Oh God I'm being recorded and people will see this"-- I saw myself in every one of those things. Except you're prettier.

I am between ENFp and INFp myself at the moment but I'm fairly young (18) and although I've been told there's no rush, I don't seem to listen to advice. The section where you spoke about how judgemental you were as a youngling hits home as it resembles my somewhat purist-elitist attitude when it comes to certain topics. Yes, I'm working on that

On a first look, I'd say...EH EN EF PEE. But I haven't watched the WHOLE video just yet. I can offer a breakdown of the paragraphs above explaining myself, and that's exactly what I'll do in the evening when I get home. I'll also watch the rest of the video because it's too precious to miss.

[Sisyphean]

Hi!

Yo.

When I was younger, I used to be terribly judgmental. I would be very closed off to novel ideas, other points of view and treated them as attacks on myself. I would judge everyone and for just about anything: the way they looked, the clothes they wore, the way they spoke, what they liked... I would also be quite open about those judgments to the extent that some people closer to me started telling me I was nasty and they didn't feel good around me. That prompted me to finally check what I was doing and why I was doing it.

Sounds like behavior that Delta NFs would be aghast over. Is your change in behavior authentic for you or an imposition due to social expectations?

I normally can never do anything routinely, I get bored very easily and can never see a point of doing the same thing over and over. I work in random bursts of energy.

Ne-valuers often seem to explicitly want routine that doesn't require much mental presence, either for a sense of security in repetition or to enable them to daydream about things outside of the job that actually do interest them.

I'm a messy person because I'm not bothered by things being "out of place". I just somehow don't see them.

Sounds like weak Si (unvalued?) or you have self-preservation low in your Enneagram.

I'm not great with money... was actually living with a long time boyfriend up until a couple months ago and he was earning enough that I didn't have to worry about money at all. I'm now on my own and I'm learning to manage it and am often surprised at how I can't estimate how much I need.

Weak Te? Valued or unvalued?

I often forget about my body needs, especially when I'm occupied with something that interests me: I forget to drink and eat and I don't notice that I'm sitting in an uncomfortable position until the pain is really loud.

Again weak Si.

When thinking about a problem or learning, I like to see as many points of view as possible at first, to recognize my options, and then to work my way to some synthesis

Sounds very Ni. Ego or Demonstrative?

I made a video of myself answering some of the questions in the questionnaire I found but my phone cut it after 10 minutes. If that's not enough material, let me know, I'll upload the other part I recorded after this.

Hmm. You say a lot of things in the video that sound antagonistic of Se (is this because super-ego Se or social expectation?). Some things which are stereotypically Fi (vocal concern for authenticity as a central value). Your space looks pretty minimalistic-yet-comfy (did you clean up for the video or are you only okay with "mess" compared to people that are really anal about that sort of thing?). You're cute but obviously anxious and I get the impression that a lot of Delta NFs give me--that if I were in the same room I'd have to be very careful not to break the Delta NF like something made out of porcelain until that got too tiring and I'd want to start trolling the person.

Leaning Delta-NF from the video.

I am between ENFp and INFp myself at the moment but I'm fairly young (18) and although I've been told there's no rush, I don't seem to listen to advice. The section where you spoke about how judgemental you were as a youngling hits home as it resembles my somewhat purist-elitist attitude when it comes to certain topics. Yes, I'm working on that

You're a beta, dude. Accept it. You respond to beta quadra values like a beta, and specifically unlike a Delta, every time they're expressed.

[ToTheMoon]

@Oppai Anschluss thanks for your dissection!

Sounds like behavior that Delta NFs would be aghast over. Is your change in behavior authentic for you or an imposition due to social expectations?

I'd say it's authentic. I didn't feel good about all those judgments. I mean, I was super insecure and knew that I was. I felt much better when I finally let myself have some new experiences that I'd judge as worthless before. Once I opened my mind to different views and possibilities of expression, it felt very liberating. So I'd call that authentic becasue it feels good to be where I am now and it didn't where I was back then. I did take it too far and made a doormat out of myself for a while and felt awful about it. Like I said, I'm working on balancing myself now.

Ne-ego often seem to explicitly want routine that doesn't require much mental presence, either for a sense of security in repetition or to enable them to daydream about things outside of the job that actually do interest them.

Hmm, I do like that kind of routine. Probably why I like my current job where most of what I do is mindlessly search the internet for new items for my shop, then I mindlessly photograph my items and mindlessly edit them. I can sort of daydream all throught that time. I actually dislike the part where I need to describe the items because I do have to be present .

Sounds like weak Si (potentially unvalued?) or you have self-preservation low in your Enneagram.

Don't know about Si (need to learn how it's defined in socionics vs mbti) but my Enneagram stack it likely so/sx.

Weak Te? Valued or unvalued?

Again, I need to improve my knowledge to answer that.

Sounds very Ni. Ego or Demonstrative?

How do I tell the difference? That's what I've been getting at with being unable to type myself as one type over the other.

Hmm. You say a lot of things in the video that sound antagonistic of Se (is this because super-ego Se or social expectation?). Some things which are stereotypically Fi (vocal concern for authenticity as a central value). Your space looks pretty minimalistic-yet-comfy (did you clean up for the video or are you only okay with "mess" compared to people that are really anal about that sort of thing?). You're cute but obviously anxious and I get the impression that a lot of Delta NFs give me--that if I were in the same room I'd have to be very careful not to break the Delta NF until that got too tiring and I'd want to start trolling the person.

Hahah, I knew someone would point out the minimalism and unmessiness in the vid. I pondered moving the camera to show you the mess I moved to the other corner of the room for the video . I always clean when I'm having guests. If I don't expect anyone, well, I'm just gonna let those dishes pile in the sink until they spill out and I run out of mugs for my coffee. As for minimalistic, I just don't mind not having stuff on my walls. I like aeclectic, cozy aesthetic with wood and natural fabrics and some useless trinkets that bring me some nostalgia, kinda like you'd imagine a cottage house maybe? Nothing modern or too clean and edgy. I've always been into old and used things. Old cameras, vintage and second-hand clothes, old furniture.
Interesting what you say about me appearing fragile and anxious. I wonder what vibe I give off in the real world, while talking to people. I've frequently been 'accused' of being self confident and decisive and conceited by people who don't know me well but had the possibility to observe me from a distance. Once they get to know me, they share their surprise with me at how nice I actually turn out to be.

Leaning Delta-NF from the video.

That would be ENFp and INFj, right?

Again, thanks for your comments. Food for thought. Gotta read more now.

[Sisyphean]

@Oppai Anschluss thanks for your dissection!

I'd say it's authentic. I didn't feel good about all those judgments. I mean, I was super insecure and knew that I was. I felt much better when I finally let myself have some new experiences that I'd judge as worthless before. Once I opened my mind to different views and possibilities of expression, it felt very liberating. So I'd call that authentic becasue it feels good to be where I am now and it didn't where I was back then. I did take it too far and made a doormat out of myself for a while and felt awful about it. Like I said, I'm working on balancing myself now.

I'm gonna chalk a lot of that up to growing up. The impulse itself that you eventually tempered sounds very much like outbursts Se dual-seeking OR disintegrated (enneagram) going into its super-ego in my opinion.

Hmm, I do like that kind of routine. Probably why I like my current job where most of what I do is mindlessly search the internet for new items for my shop, then I mindlessly photograph my items and mindlessly edit them. I can sort of daydream all throught that time. I actually dislike the part where I need to describe the items because I do have to be present .

My Ni is doorknob-licking retarded so I'll refer you to @Luminous Lynx to see if that kind of thing is what he would enjoy.

Don't know about Si (need to learn how it's defined in socionics vs mbti) but my Enneagram stack it likely so/sx.

Si roughly is the comfort, wellness, and pleasure seeking function. Si-ignoring in an SLE is often characterized by disregarding internal indications of injury, sickness, or fatigue in order to carry on with a given task. SEI's Si program is like the stereotypical "comfy mom" archetype.

Si for IEI is the "Role" function, or what people turn to when their Program + Creative functions aren't working. For IEE it's their Dual-Seeking or Suggestive function, love it but suck at it and look for it in others.

Si as Role Function (IEI, ILI)

The individual dislikes it when others emphasize the importance and need for physical rest, comfort, relaxation, enjoyment, taking it slowly, and activities that are supposed to bring these about, because they are already in a semi-relaxed state most of the time, and internally need just the opposite — activity, energetic action, resolve, stimulating new impressions. Rather than spend their time trying to "take it easy on themselves" and turning back to listen to their internal states, they need clear external actions and demands that direct their attention outside of themselves, towards concrete reality, and thus conquer and dispel their sense of detachment, uncertainty and hesitation.

Si as suggestive function in ILE (ENTp; Don Quixote) and IEE (ENFp; Huxley) - these sociotypes always move in the direction of places where there is physical comfort and constancy, pleasant sensations, and cannot deny themselves in this. Where they are physically comfortable, such places are good, even if they are very expensive. Love fine food, massage, rubbing. Having found one place where they feel comfortable, such as a restaurant - could go there for dinner across town. Avoid places which lack all of his needed physical facilities. Food lovers, slaves to their preferences and habits. If they have a sweet tooth, will consume sweets by kilograms. Often determines the state of their physical being by the words of others, easily suggestible by this. Sometimes can try to recreate at home the elements of the place where they felt most comfortable physically. Quickly become accustomed to the "good" and this becomes their weakness in the future - without it they cannot endure. Suggestible by authorities on issues of health - if he is told that he needs to have something treated, he will easily believe it. In this context, can fall prey to "snake oil physicians". May forget to eat on time or to take medicine, to sleep, thus are in need of caring parents or spouses.

Again, I need to improve my knowledge to answer that.

I gave you a link to the aspects of valued functions in the other thread. For an IEI Te is the vulnerable function but IEE has it as its Activating. For your job it might be described as "the business of your business." Managing the books, the numbers, and the processes.

Te as Vulnerable Function (IEI, SEI)

That is manifested as a skepticism and dislike for basing your beliefs, arguments, and actions on external sources of information. For instance, a SEI will rather trust the expertise of someone who seems to have hands-on experience, even if limited, than of someone who demonstrates to have read many books on the same subject. IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it. "Don't trust everything you read" is a typical sneer of this function, especially when applied to sources of information otherwise seen as neutral and reliable, such as encyclopedias and handbooks. Another manifestation is a dislike for dealing with issues involving efficiency, productivity, and factual accuracy of statements made; statements are made according to input from other functions, not from double-checks against external facts which are seen as of lesser relevance to the issue at hand. Types with this function lack confidence in their ability to find relevant information in outside sources.

Te as activating function in SEE (ESFp; Napoleon) and IEE (ENFp; Huxley) - for this individual knowledge is paramount, a measure of worth: "If there is something I don't know - I'm inferior". Therefore, very often they claim they know how something is done, while in reality not knowing it (often in hopes that they will research it later, and that no one will suspect that they were bluffing). Sometimes, in self-defense, you can hear them say "I don't know", shamefully admitting to their weakness. It is also important for them to have some personal territory, a place where they have the opportunity to be in charge. They love to learn, because acquired knowledge increases their self-esteem. Nothing pleases them more as to receive a high mark on some subject. Such person is very attentive to objective reality: any violation in the order of things stresses him. He likes to reinforce own claims with links to an authoritative sources, statistics and facts, but cannot analyze them in terms of understanding. His vocation: the keeper of factual knowledge. Can't stand any measure of chaos in information, when nothing is clear. In such situations, tries to simplify the information: "Do we have any actual, concrete facts and figures? Lets start with these. " "If there is order in my world - then I am good, if not - then I'm bad." Have a tendency to idealize their "objective" picture of the world and authoritative figures. That is, they view it as what actually exists, even if they are in error and many of their facts are specious. Often become followers of something, of some "order of things" and attempt to implement this order everywhere. Getting promoted to higher position usually recruit "their" people who accept their "order of things" and their actions. Very important concept for them: "If I am the owner, I am the boss in my territory." It does not matter what the size of this territory is: a room or an entire state, as long as their authority has been accepted by everyone. Sometimes this takes a comical shape: a guard of some area considers himself to be in the right to decide whether or not to let you in based on his personal whims. In personal life, this can lead to elevated demands placed on potential partners: it is necessary to fully accept all of their outward actions, but this can be done only up to certain extent. Often they are aware that finding such ideal in principle not possible. Violation of the order of things by their subordinates is a serious offense - have you arrived too late? Thus you destroyed his order. If he is not the boss, then it is important for him to know exactly the extent of his responsibilities, otherwise he may not take up someone else's "order of things." Love to order people around if opportunity presents itself: relatives, subordinates, depending on how far their concept of territory extends itself.

How do I tell the difference? That's what I've been getting at with being unable to type myself as one type over the other.

Sorry I had the Id functions backwards for IEE. It would be ignoring for IEE.

Ni as leading function in IEI (INFp; Esenin) and ILI (INTp; Balzac) - this person considers himself to be very ideological, consistent, principled, and is very conservative in this. Becomes irritated by those who criticize his ideas. He lives by the "wholeness" of the internal situation. Often able to see "through" things, to the inner essence of something or someone. Romantic and idealist. Lives by his internal harmony, tranquility, serenity, is able to draw inspiration within himself, and gets annoyed by those who try to disturb it. Generally does not like when people try to look inside of him, gets frustrated and angry when this happens. Strives to be inwardly calm in all situations and internally consistent. "Fluid like a river": involuntarily adjusts himself to the interlocutor in conversation by taking form of consciousness that is best fitted for the situation. By this he isn't playing a role, his consciousness is simply multifaceted and he is directed by his inner "wholeness". That is, he simply presents a version of himself. Communicating with you, he always feels your moods as if he is living through them together with you, adjusts himself to this. Loves to introspect and to meditate. In case of failure, can make a qualitative self-analysis. Being present in some place he as if tunes himself out, tries to become invisible like a chameleon, especially if he perceives it as a threat to his inner tranquility: for example, in the workplace so that no one bothers him. Can even hide it in some clever way: arrange a barricade of folders so that behind them he is not visible. Does not like restless, internally discordant individuals, as their state can get transmitted to him, will try to escape from their company at any price. This is especially funny in a situation where a male representative of this type flees from ladies, and they pursue him like prey, because they feel that he has something that they so desperately need: inner peace. But for him this inner "wholeness" is not the product but material for inner consumption, so he can only share this with a small number of people, but sometimes someone might snatch a piece - this makes him very angry. Often, especially in circle of family, he becomes a critic, since deviation in behavior away from his principles turns him aggressive. If in another situation he will somehow restrain himself, at home he may allow himself to explode with anger.

Ni as Ignoring Function (ILE, IEE)

The individual understands discussions and arguments focused on following past trends into the future and their possible implications, as well as on exploring one specific imaginative vision of personal meaning. However he is disinterested in this type of information or even annoyed by excessive focus on it. He much prefers being originator of new trends starting from a present point in time and reality, exploring all the current potentialities and possibilities that lie ahead, however unlikely and imaginative, rather than concentrating on past repeating itself.

Hahah, I knew someone would point out the minimalism and unmessiness in the vid. I pondered moving the camera to show you the mess I moved to the other corner of the room for the video . I always clean when I'm having guests. If I don't expect anyone, well, I'm just gonna let those dishes pile in the sink until they spill out and I run out of mugs for my coffee. As for minimalistic, I just don't mind not having stuff on my walls. I like aeclectic, cozy aesthetic with wood and natural fabrics and some useless trinkets that bring me some nostalgia, kinda like you'd imagine a cottage house maybe? Nothing modern or too clean and edgy.

Well shit that almost sounds like my apartment half the time lol. Dishes don't get done until it's time to cook again. If you had a roommate whose whole thing was to keep that stuff tidy and "homey" would that just be the best for you or would you respond more "lol okay. w/e" and get a little irritated over time?

I've lived with neat freaks and it kind of made me want to lose my mind.

Interesting what you say about me appearing fragile and anxious. I wonder what vibe I give off in the real world, while talking to people. I've frequently been 'accused' of being self confident and decisive and conceited by people who don't know me well but had the possibility to observe me from a distance. Once they get to know me, they share their surprise with me at how nice I actually turn out to be.

This is why I'm not typically a fan of video typing people more than talking to them. People get nervous and come off totally different, or try to fill an expected role, or be crowd-pleasing. People would type me as some sort of mega introvert if I made a video.

That would be ENFp and INFj, right?

Again, thanks for your comments. Food for thought. Gotta read more now.

Yup, it would be one of those types but I'm not the biggest fan of video typing and I keep coming back around to your very hostile reactions to novel ideas. Every Delta NF I've interacted with is extremely accomodating of novel notions on the pretext of being kind or "if it's authentic to them, then it's just as valid." My stereotype is that a Delta NF would say identifying your gender as a car radio is just as good as anything else, and that I'm a huge jerk for making that joke. Never seen an obviously disintegrated Delta NF, tho, so

[Memento Mori]

My Ni is doorknob-licking retarded so I'll refer you to @Luminous Lynx to see if that kind of thing is what he would enjoy.

The reference: "Hmm, I do like that kind of routine. Probably why I like my current job where most of what I do is mindlessly search the internet for new items for my shop, then I mindlessly photograph my items and mindlessly edit them. I can sort of daydream all throught that time. I actually dislike the part where I need to describe the items because I do have to be present"

Nope, that sounds like fresh hell lmao. That's the kind of thing I'd do for my mates if they asked, but it'd bore me to tears occupationally. For many, a job that is too demanding is 'work'. A job that is not engaging enough to me is not a thing at all, it's just coasting for a paycheck. For me the key is how engaged I am. Regardless of how demanding or how lax a thing is, I need to be engaged and I need to have passion for the thing I'm doing or I quickly feel I'm trapped in a mind-numbing routine, which is about the last thing I'd ever want. A fulfilling job shouldn't feel like 'work' most of the time, but the engaging and the passionate is typically somewhat demanding, thus leisure rarely factors in. If I'm daydreaming that means I'm not being engaged; as an Ni program/Si role, I already have enough need of Se to bring me out of my comfortable shell of surrealist imagination.

[ToTheMoon]

The reference: "Hmm, I do like that kind of routine. Probably why I like my current job where most of what I do is mindlessly search the internet for new items for my shop, then I mindlessly photograph my items and mindlessly edit them. I can sort of daydream all throught that time. I actually dislike the part where I need to describe the items because I do have to be present"

Nope, that sounds like fresh hell lmao. That's the kind of thing I'd do for my mates if they asked, but it'd bore me to tears occupationally. For many, a job that is too demanding is 'work'. A job that is not engaging enough to me is not a thing at all, it's just coasting for a paycheck. For me the key is how engaged I am. Regardless of how demanding or how lax a thing is, I need to be engaged and I need to have passion for the thing I'm doing or I quickly feel I'm trapped in a mind-numbing routine, which is about the last thing I'd ever want. A fulfilling job shouldn't feel like 'work' most of the time, but the engaging and the passionate is typically somewhat demanding, thus leisure rarely factors in. If I'm daydreaming that means I'm not being engaged; as an Ni program/Si role, I already have enough need of Se to bring me out of my comfortable shell of surrealist imagination.

Oh, I see. Well, I've been super engaged in my previous job as a graphic designer and let me tell you, THAT was hell to me. The constant feeling I wasn't good enough (the fact that I didn't have any formal education played into that), the high expectations vs perceived poor outcomes, the horrible way my client relationships always turned out... ugh. It was engaging, yes, but in the worst way possible. How I was able to do that for 10 years remains a mystery to me. Maybe being Enneagram 9 has to do something with it. I just never properly focused on how much I disliked my job and just went with it just because.

[Beautiful sky]

Oh, I see. Well, I've been super engaged in my previous job as a graphic designer and let me tell you, THAT was hell to me. The constant feeling I wasn't good enough (the fact that I didn't have any formal education played into that), the high expectations vs perceived poor outcomes, the horrible way my client relationships always turned out... ugh. It was engaging, yes, but in the worst way possible. How I was able to do that for 10 years remains a mystery to me. Maybe being Enneagram 9 has to do something with it. I just never properly focused on how much I disliked my job and just went with it just because.

Very stoic of you enduring difficult circumstances with commitment.

[ToTheMoon]

I'm gonna chalk a lot of that up to growing up. The impulse itself that you eventually tempered sounds very much like outbursts Se dual-seeking in my opinion. The function we need and try (clumsily and simplistically) to manifest ourselves when we aren't getting enough of it. LSI's allegedly will have some poorly received Fe outbursts from time to time looking for their dual.

Okay, I'm not sure I get the whole theory behind what you just wrote but I'll educate myself so thanks for pointing this out.

Si roughly is the comfort, wellness, and pleasure seeking function. Si-ignoring in an SLE is often characterized by disregarding internal indications of injury, sickness, or fatigue in order to carry on with a given task. SEI's Si program is like the stereotypical "comfy mom" archetype.

Si for IEI is the "Role" function, or what people turn to when their Program + Creative functions aren't working. For IEE it's their Dual-Seeking or Suggestive function, love it but suck at it and look for it in others.

Okay, so what about having it both ways? I'm a very passive person, I'd just stay at home my whole life and I've always dreamt of someone who would activate me. It's easy for me to relax and do nothing, so much so, that I finally get restless and angry, especaially when someone insists on just staying still. Not that I would ever express that anger openly but I'm working on that .

On the other hand I do like it when someone offers to take me to a restaurant and lures me with fine food. But now that I think of it, maybe it's more because I feel teased that someone would spend their time with me (and their money on me) and 'show me off' rather than because of the food&comfort itself? Okay, so probably the first option for me then, Role function!

I gave you a link to the aspects of valued functions in the other thread. For an IEI Te is the vulnerable function but IEE has it as its Activating. For your job it might be described as "the business of your business." Managing the books, the numbers, and the processes.

Oh, sorry, I'm a bit owerwhelmed by all the responses I got here, I may have missed your link. I'll go look for it. I can't say I'm connecting with either of Te descriptions too much.

Sorry I had the Id functions backwards for IEE. It would be ignoring for IEE. I definitely don't see Ni-ignoring in what you described.

Ni as leading sounds familiar to me although I'm not sure I'm so 'stoic' and detached.

Well shit that almost sounds like my apartment half the time lol. Dishes don't get done until it's time to cook again. If you had a roommate whose whole thing was to keep that stuff tidy and "homey" would that just be the best for you or would you respond more "lol okay. w/e" and get a little irritated over time?

I've lived with neat freaks and it kind of made me want to lose my mind.

Hmm, I guess I just don't care much? I've lived with a boyfriend who liked to clean and I was okay with that. I mean I'm not opposed to having a clean home . As long as he didn't tell me that I should get more organized/remember to put dishes in the dishwasher myself, I was fine.

This is why I'm not typically a fan of video typing people more than talking to them. People get nervous and come off totally different, or try to fill an expected role, or be crowd-pleasing. People would type me as some sort of mega introvert if I made a video.

Yes, that has crossed my mind.

Yup, it would be one of those types but I'm not the biggest fan of video typing and I keep coming back around to your very hostile reactions to novel ideas. Every Delta NF I've interacted with is extremely accomodating of novel notions on the pretext of being kind or "if it's authentic to them, then it's just as valid." My stereotype is that a Delta NF would say identifying your gender as a car radio is just as good as anything else, and that I'm a huge jerk for making that joke.

[/QUOTE]

Okay, so maybe a bit of a backstory is needed here. I was brought up by a single mother who was (is) extremly judgmental and uber-controlling and aggresive towards the world (I think she's ESTJ if that helps). She was also violent, both emotionally and physically. In order to, umm, survive her, I just took in everything she said and thought, all of her opinions and her way of being with people. I mimicked her. She would not have me another way, the only correct way to do things was her way. There was no other adult around me to show me a different approach to life and people, no alternative role model. I never rebelled against my mother, not until I was (gasp) about 25. By then I think her steel grip on me lightened slightly and I figured I could have my own opinions on things. That's when I started to see that being judgmental and opinionated at that is actually draining for me and that I'm way more relaxed when I go with 'live and let live' attitude and curiosity about things that are different. That, in itself, was a rebellion and it still creates tension between us whenever I try to show her that others' points of view are valuable and valid, while she insists that they don't get the whole picture (and she does) and I'm flighty and should have strong opinions on things (I do but in a different way than her, so...).
So there's that.

[Sisyphean]

Okay, I'm not sure I get the whole theory behind what you just wrote but I'll educate myself so thanks for pointing this out.

As a big asterisk on this, I have my own personal theory that people who are "disintegrated" in an Enneagram sense fall into their super-ego functions (alternate axis of your Program and Creative) and behave badly like their impressions of their least compatible types. As an example, I know an LII (Ti Ne) who went through a very bad time and coped very poorly, and tried to compensate by acting like a bad caricature of an SEE (Se Fi). That may also explain my confusion given what you said about your experience with your mom. If this is true a disintegrated EII or IEE might behave like an unhealthy SLE or LSI respectively. As an SLE, novelty for its own sake to humor someone's "inner authenticity" tends to piss me off and on a bad day I might tell it to fuck off.

The suggestive or "dual-seeking" function is the function on the other end of the axis of your lead/program function. Se-lead SLEs and SEEs have Ni suggestive. In intertype relation theory, a type's "dual" is the type who has your suggestive as their lead/program, and your activating/mobilizing as their creative function, so all the things you like but suck at are the things they like and are best at. The things you desire are the things they just simply are. The theory with the dual-seeking function is that when the environment and people around aren't giving as much of it as a person needs the person will try to generate that themselves to get some and effectively send out an SOS for their dual. But the Suggestive Function is the one we value and are worst at, so it's a very basic and clumsy manifestation.

An IEE's dual is SLI, and EII's dual is LSE.

IEE - Ne Fi
SLI - Si Te
EII - Fi Ne
LSE - Te Si

An IEI's dual is SLE
IEI - Ni Fe
SLE - Se Ti

Oh, sorry, I'm a bit owerwhelmed by all the responses I got here, I may have missed your link. I'll go look for it. I can't say I'm connecting with either of Te descriptions too much.

No worries, just making sure you didn't miss it. Does this Te sound more like you?

Te as suggestive function in ESI (ISFj; Dreiser) and EII (INFj; Dostoyevsky) - this person easily believes in facts and figures, often turn a deaf ear to everything but these. Keeps to places where he knows what to do in every situation. Suggestible by the external order of things, which is often the order that was in place during his upbringing: the political system, social norms, etc. Reacts sensitively to social changes: "God grant you do not live in an era of change." Always moves in the direction of highest order and carefully avoids chaos, is inspired by this order and worries that in future it might change. In this regard, may gravitate towards work in the military, which has the force of statute. It is important to him that the environment is always organized in accordance to rules and laws that he is accustomed to, that this order does not contradict the facts of objective reality. It is also important to know who should be in what position, what needs to be done, what documents must be collected, for what purpose, where they should be submitted, what is the correct way to fill them out. Feels most comfortable in situations where there is only one interpretation of correct action, without any admixture with elements of subjectivity: "in this such case, this should be done". Knowledge of the facts of the situation often replaces true understanding of the underlying problems. Understanding becomes superficial, simply a collection of surface data and statistics, laws and regulations. He does not like long and detailed explanations, will immediately interrupt and say: "So what is this in actuality?". He wants to get a working solution or order right away, not the rationale behind it. For example: "2x2=4." This is an already established rule. Likes terminology, you can sometimes talk to him only using some accepted terms and this will be sufficient. Does not like those who destroy the norms of behavior, for example, those who break the chain of command. Especially gets influenced by the facts that he sees with his own eyes or can touch with own hands. Thus he can fall victim to scams that provide specious claims and facts, especially if the scam is done out in the open ("simple dexterity of hands and no tricks").

Ni as leading sounds familiar to me although I'm not sure I'm so 'stoic' and detached.

How about this. If you're EII instead of IEE you would have Demonstrative Ni as your strongest non-valued function

Ni as Demonstrative Function (EII, LII)

The individual is quite adept at following discussions on the developments of present trends into the future and their meaning, and contributing to them on occasion if he feels so inclined, but he does not take that as seriously compared to investigating and bring up to discussion new alternatives and possible topics in the areas he is interested in at present. He usually dismisses if not outright ridicules claims that everything is set and will continue along the same path and instead prefers to bring up to discussion potential variations and ways out, unusual and rare possibilities, new horizons and enterprising ideas.

Okay, so maybe a bit of a backstory is needed here. I was brought up by a single mother who was (is) extremly judgmental and uber-controlling and aggresive towards the world (I think she's ESTJ if that helps). She was also violent, both emotionally and physically. In order to, umm, survive her, I just took in everything she said and thought, all of her opinions and her way of being with people. I mimicked her. She would not have me another way, the only correct way to do things was her way. There was no other adult around me to show me a different approach to life and people, no alternative role model. I never rebelled against my mother, not until I was (gasp) about 25. By then I think her steel grip on me lightened slightly and I figured I could have my own opinions on things. That's when I started to see that being judgmental and opinionated at that is actually draining for me and that I'm way more relaxed when I go with 'live and let live' attitude and curiosity about things that are different. That, in itself, was a rebellion and it still creates tension between us whenever I try to show her that others' points of view are valuable and valid, while she insists that they don't get the whole picture (and she does) and I'm flighty and should have strong opinions on things (I do but in a different way than her, so...).
So there's that.

Youch, sorry to hear that. Glad yougot yourself into a better spot, tho. Assuming my hunch about Enneagram disintegration is accurate that would explain my confusion about your earlier phase. Sorry for any confusion mine may have caused.

[ToTheMoon]

As a big asterisk on this, I have my own personal theory that people who are "disintegrated" in an Enneagram sense fall into their super-ego functions (alternate axis of your Program and Creative) and behave badly like their impressions of their least compatible types. As an example, I know an LII (Ti Ne) who went through a very bad time and coped very poorly, and tried to compensate by acting like a bad caricature of an SEE (Se Fi). That may also explain my confusion given what you said about your experience with your mom. If this is true a disintegrated EII or IEE might behave like an unhealthy SLE or LSI respectively. As an SLE, novelty for its own sake to humor someone's "inner authenticity" tends to piss me off and on a bad day I might tell it to fuck off.

That sounds sound to me, but naturally I'm no expert. It does seem to explain the effect my bringing up had on me so why not, I'm gonna say you're onto something .

The suggestive or "dual-seeking" function is the function on the other end of the axis of your lead/program function. Se-lead SLEs and SEEs have Ni suggestive. In intertype relation theory, a type's "dual" is the type who has your suggestive as their lead/program, and your activating/mobilizing as their creative function, so all the things you like but suck at are the things they like and are best at. The things you desire are the things they just simply are. The theory with the dual-seeking function is that when the environment and people around aren't giving as much of it as a person needs the person will try to generate that themselves to get some and effectively send out an SOS for their dual. But the Suggestive Function is the one we value and are worst at, so it's a very basic and clumsy manifestation.

An IEE's dual is SLI, and EII's dual is LSE.

IEE - Ne Fi
SLI - Si Te
EII - Fi Ne
LSE - Te Si

An IEI's dual is SLE
IEI - Ni Fe
SLE - Se Ti

Hah, how fun. One of my best friends is a girl I met by complete chance for quasi-professional reasons and we just clicked. She's self-confirmed ESTJ. We just love each other to bits and somehow naturally do the right things for each other. When I think about my mother who I suspect is also ESTJ, she's very much like my friend, only kinda weirdly 'distorted' in some places.

No worries, just making sure you didn't miss it. Does this Te sound more like you?

Te as suggestive function in ESI (ISFj; Dreiser) and EII (INFj; Dostoyevsky)

I mean sometimes, maybe... But I might just be in denial about my Te .

How about this. If you're EII instead of IEE you would have Demonstrative Ni as your strongest non-valued function

Ni as Demonstrative Function (EII, LII)

This sounds pretty true to me. Although I think I've now reached that zone where anything sounds kinda true (except for things that don't make any sense but that's a pretty low threshold). I need to refresh my brain .

Youch, sorry to hear that. Glad yougot yourself into a better spot, tho. Assuming my hunch about Enneagram disintegration is accurate that would explain my confusion about your earlier phase. Sorry for any confusion mine may have caused.

[/QUOTE]
No worries! It's in the past and I'm comfortable with it now. Thanks for your input and time, it's greatly appreciated.

[Chthonic Daydream]

You're a beta, dude. Accept it. You respond to beta quadra values like a beta, and specifically unlike a Delta, every time they're expressed.

No, I'm a renegade. You can stick to your retrievers and huskies, I'll go to my comfy, harmonious, dog-less Delta quadra.
Just messing with you-- Have you checked out my video though? shameless self-promotion

As for the analysis of the OP's paragraphs, well, some points have already been covered by Oppai so I will only get to the parts where I can contribute with some insights of my own.

"When I was younger, I used to be terribly judgmental. I would be very closed off to novel ideas, other points of view and treated them as attacks on myself. I would judge everyone and for just about anything: the way they looked, the clothes they wore, the way they spoke, what they liked... I would also be quite open about those judgments to the extent that some people closer to me started telling me I was nasty and they didn't feel good around me. That prompted me to finally check what I was doing and why I was doing it. I then proceeded to work my way to being able to drop these defense mechanisms and I became much more in harmony with myself and with others. I was always conflict-avoidant but where I used to be judgmental, I switched to being a total people pleaser. I was over-accomodating and matching myself to others without question, just to make sure they accept me. I went overboard with this as well. I'm currently working on balancing myself: having the room to have my own opinions and giving myself the right to voice them when I want to, while still remaining accepting of others and their views."

I don't think this holds much socionics value, I see it as belonging in the realm of Enneagram, type 4, more than anything. Switching from a pretentious elitist to a people pleaser is exactly what 4 > 2 disintegration looks like, mostly. In Socionics terms, this could signify aristocratic tendencies when it comes to how you approach inclusion (aristocratic quadras being Beta and Delta), so if you wanted another confirmation that you're an NF, you have it now. : P

"Over the course of my life (I'm currently 33), I have changed my occupation many times. I studied photography and cultural anthropology. I still take photo assignments from time to time but never worked as a photographer full time. I never tried pursuing a career in anthropology. I used to be a graphic designer for about a decade (I learned everything on my own + took a course or two). Then switched to bespoke sewing for a couple of years (again, learned everything on my own + took a course). These artistic pursuits actually drained me and made me feel like an impostor, and working with demanding clients made me emotionally unstable which led to me finally hating the thing I was doing. In between, I was teaching theory of photography in workshops and was tutoring English from time to time, both of which I enjoyed immensly. Then, about a year ago, I finally decided to drop the idea that I have to be creative/artistic for a living and am currently running an online vintage shop and I think this is finally something I can do to sustain myself. Working in retail without direct face-to-face contact with my customers feels liberating and safe, and I can even work with the routine I managed to devise for myself. I normally can never do anything routinely, I get bored very easily and can never see a point of doing the same thing over and over. I work in random bursts of energy. "

Enterprising and creative, you have initiative when it comes to starting career projects and were very optimistic about the prospects-- I would've just broken down crying if I were you. Fine-tuned your options as soon as you found a solution and went into the whole online retail deal. Ne + Te Hidden Agenda IMO. Random energy spikes, low boredom threshold are characteristic of irrationals (Ep in this case). When life gives you lemons, you squeeze it but not entirely.



"I'm a messy person because I'm not bothered by things being "out of place". I just somehow don't see them. I'm not detail oriented like that. I'm not great with money... was actually living with a long time boyfriend up until a couple months ago and he was earning enough that I didn't have to worry about money at all. I'm now on my own and I'm learning to manage it and am often surprised at how I can't estimate how much I need."

Low Si. Nothing more to say, and nothing less really. Maybeeee a low priority placed on sp when it comes to instinctual stacking.


"I often forget about my body needs, especially when I'm occupied with something that interests me: I forget to drink and eat and I don't notice that I'm sitting in an uncomfortable position until the pain is really loud. Never did any sports although I can ride a bike and enjoy it as it allows my mind to wander while there are landscapes changing before my eyes. For the same reason I enjoy hiking or just walking --I can do that for hours and never get tired. I like to experience nice things, though, I love good food (but can do without, I mostly just eat sandwiches when I'm alone because cooking is boring), I love seeing beautiful things and places, I like art, music etc. I usually attach personal meanings to things that I see, sort of like superimposing an idea over the real world, I definitely don't have my two feet firmly planted in the world."

You tend to forget about body needs when enticed by other pursuits but appreciate good food. It tastes so much better when you're not the one cooking it, doesn't it? Haha, this points to Si DS. Attaching personal meanings to things is characteristic of Fi ("This series means so much to me because...", "This pendant looks terrible and it's worn out but I'm still keeping it because it was a gift from a dearly departed") but what you say about "superimposing" sounds Ni, honestly.

Where I had doubts about typing you as a Ne-ego before, the following paragraph convinced me otherwise:
"When thinking about a problem or learning, I like to see as many points of view as possible at first, to recognize my options, and then to work my way to some synthesis that makes sense to me. I kind of make categories that have characteristic flavors or vibes and that's how I navigate around them. When new information comes, I check what 'flavor' it has and whether I can add it to some category I already have in my mind, or is it a new category altogether. If so, where does it fit? Which 'flavors' does it borrow from and between which 'vibes' can I place it? That mental map of feelings about things helps me easier access different things at once. I think quickly that way and can easily grasp concepts thanks to that intuitive way my mind works. It's sort of 'oh, this is similar to something I already know, so I can draw from this source to quicker grasp the new data'. It is hard for me to settle on one understanding though, and I like to add to the categories that I make in my head, expanding the whole theory."

Brainstorming approach to problem-solving, scouting the mindscape for solutions, solutions, solutions. You seem to work on a pattern-based system but not one that's reminiscent of Ti. I suck at explaining it, but are you familiar with the site "TV tropes"? You should check it out, as I feel it's the essence of Ne. And speaking of essence, that's what Ne is about. And that seems to be just the way you navigate the world; Through essences. "Oh this is something I already know, so I can draw from this source to quicker grasp the new data". Keep expanding those categories :love2:
How are you feeling about analogies and similes? What about metaphors?


Overall, while I stiiiill do have some doubts about where to place you, I think IEE-Ne is the best fit for you. Welcome to the forum and enjoy your stay, @ToTheMoon!

[ToTheMoon]

Thanks @Plumes, for all your insight!

I don't think this holds much socionics value, I see it as belonging in the realm of Enneagram, type 4, more than anything. Switching from a pretentious elitist to a people pleaser is exactly what 4 > 2 disintegration looks like, mostly. In Socionics terms, this could signify aristocratic tendencies when it comes to how you approach inclusion (aristocratic quadras being Beta and Delta), so if you wanted another confirmation that you're an NF, you have it now. : P

I'm certain I'm a 9w1. Behaviours aside, when I worked my way back to my personal motivations for being the way I am, looking for harmony and balance (through being conflict-avoidant and merging with other people when I'm on a lower level of health) are 100% me. Sure I used to type as 4 when I was younger. But being different isn't the core problem of my soul. Being ignored and unseen is.

Enterprising and creative, you have initiative when it comes to starting career projects and were very optimistic about the prospects-- I would've just broken down crying if I were you. Fine-tuned your options as soon as you found a solution and went into the whole online retail deal. Ne + Te Hidden Agenda IMO. Random energy spikes, low boredom threshold are characteristic of irrationals (Ep in this case). When life gives you lemons, you squeeze it but not entirely.

Well put.

Low Si. Nothing more to say, and nothing less really. Maybeeee a low priority placed on sp when it comes to instinctual stacking.

Agreed.

You tend to forget about body needs when enticed by other pursuits but appreciate good food. It tastes so much better when you're not the one cooking it, doesn't it? Haha, this points to Si DS. Attaching personal meanings to things is characteristic of Fi ("This series means so much to me because...", "This pendant looks terrible and it's worn out but I'm still keeping it because it was a gift from a dearly departed") but what you say about "superimposing" sounds Ni, honestly.

Tastes good regardless of who cooks it, really, and I cook well when I do. It's the staying in the moment and paying attention that I can't stand. There's no story in it for me, no scenario I could live in to make it interesting. Superimposing is all I do, all the time. Without it, there's little flavour to reality for me.

Brainstorming approach to problem-solving, scouting the mindscape for solutions, solutions, solutions. You seem to work on a pattern-based system but not one that's reminiscent of Ti. I suck at explaining it, but are you familiar with the site "TV tropes"? You should check it out, as I feel it's the essence of Ne. And speaking of essence, that's what Ne is about. And that seems to be just the way you navigate the world; Through essences. "Oh this is something I already know, so I can draw from this source to quicker grasp the new data". Keep expanding those categories
How are you feeling about analogies and similes? What about metaphors?

TV tropes is one of those sites that I can stay on forever. Love it.
I'm probably fine with metaphors and analogies and similes but what I find really helps me understand and explain is giving real-life examples. I want to see things as they would play out in the real world. If you described something to me in technical terms, I'd have trouble understanding. If you added an analogy to the real world, then I would understand probably immediately. That is also how I can explain my train of thought better, by thinking of real-life situations or sort of simulations (when I haven't had personal experience).

Overall, while I stiiiill do have some doubts about where to place you, I think IEE-Ne is the best fit for you. Welcome to the forum and enjoy your stay, @ToTheMoon!

[/QUOTE]
Thanks! So it seems my first instincts were right about being ENFp.

[Sisyphean]

No, I'm a renegade. You can stick to your retrievers and huskies, I'll go to my comfy, harmonious, dog-less Delta quadra.
Just messing with you-- Have you checked out my video though? shameless self-promotion

My IEI best bud did literally this last night when I sent him a video of the most Ni expression of beta values I've ever seen lol.

And no, I haven't yet. PM a link?

[Memento Mori]

My IEI best bud did literally this last night when I sent him a video of the most Ni expression of beta values I've ever seen lol.

And no, I haven't yet. PM a link?

lmao why whatever are You talking about!?


@ToTheMoon I'm not even halfway through Your video and You're obviously EII to me. That's a comment on what You're saying, as I've not graduated from VI University yet heheh. Vi-wise, what I can say is You do look and speak like a marginally calmer version of an EII ex of mine, so I suppose that reinforced my perception on some level.

Transcribed from the video: "Valuing myself... is a value.... in itself. Thanks to valuing myself, I can.... be independent of others, of their influence, and I can be safe in myself to connect with others, without the need to, sort of, 'blend' with them. But, that connection is.... incredibly important to me; I mean, without feeling connection to other people, I wither away and die. So, I guess, being close to others, being authentic with others, being able to be open with others, that is what is important to me."

This certainly stood out. That You're Program Fi is a near certainty. I would further wager Your Fi is Fi+, making You Delta NF > Gamma SF. IEE seems unlikely, as possessing both 4D Ne and (unconscious) 4D Fe generally entails a ton of energy, where You seem comparatively calm and gentle. If I was a betting man I'd go all-in on You being EII, otherwise IEE-Fi would be the next consideration.

[ToTheMoon]

lmao why whatever are You talking about!?


@ToTheMoon I'm not even halfway through Your video and You're obviously EII to me. That's a comment on what You're saying, as I've not graduated from VI University yet heheh. Vi-wise, what I can say is You do look and speak like a marginally calmer version of an EII ex of mine, so I suppose that reinforced my perception on some level.

Transcribed from the video: "Valuing myself... is a value.... in itself. Thanks to valuing myself, I can.... be independent of others, of their influence, and I can be safe in myself to connect with others, without the need to, sort of, 'blend' with them. But, that connection is.... incredibly important to me; I mean, without feeling connection to other people, I wither away and die. So, I guess, being close to others, being authentic with others, being able to be open with others, that is what is important to me."

This certainly stood out. That You're Program Fi is a near certainty. I would further wager Your Fi is Fi+, making You Delta NF > Gamma SF. IEE seems unlikely, as possessing both 4D Ne and (unconscious) 4D Fe generally entails a ton of energy, where You seem comparatively calm and gentle. If I was a betting man I'd go all-in on You being EII, otherwise IEE-Fi would be the next consideration.

Almost missed this post! Wow, that sounds like some deep level analysis. Not sure I understand all the things you wrote (4D? Fi+?) but it seems that EII and IEE are my two possible options now, according to most of you guys. Thanks for the input!

[Memento Mori]

Almost missed this post! Wow, that sounds like some deep level analysis. Not sure I understand all the things you wrote (4D? Fi+?) but it seems that EII and IEE are my two possible options now, according to most of you guys. Thanks for the input!

Cheers, lass. The popular model of Socionics most of us are tacitly using here on the forums is called Model A. The +/- component is an addition onto the standard IEs that augments their temperament/nature, and IIRC is a component of Model B, Bukalov's Signage. Bukalov's Signage is also present, AFAIK, in Model G (Gulenko's model), which handles and emphasizes elements in Model A distinctly. Finally, here's a link on functional dimensionality , and (just for some added flavor and fun) have an article on functional semantics .

Happy to help

Bukalov's Signage:
Socionics Functiona + -.jpg

Signage correlation to type:
Socionics Functional Model.png

Triangles are Intuition
Circles are Sensing
Squares are Thinking
Steps are Feeling
White is Introverted and black is Extroverted

[ToTheMoon]

You are my spirit animal. Er, human??
Whatever-- "It's so hard putting it into words" >> I felt that phrase in your video so hard. For every sequence of you shuffling, looking down, bouncing your eyes around the room rummaging for answers and words in your mind and trying to buy some time because "Oh God I'm being recorded and people will see this"-- I saw myself in every one of those things. Except you're prettier.

I am between ENFp and INFp myself at the moment but I'm fairly young (18) and although I've been told there's no rush, I don't seem to listen to advice. The section where you spoke about how judgemental you were as a youngling hits home as it resembles my somewhat purist-elitist attitude when it comes to certain topics. Yes, I'm working on that

On a first look, I'd say...EH EN EF PEE. But I haven't watched the WHOLE video just yet. I can offer a breakdown of the paragraphs above explaining myself, and that's exactly what I'll do in the evening when I get home. I'll also watch the rest of the video because it's too precious to miss.

Haha, thanks for your message! So sweet, the way you describe what you see in me. Thank you. Btw, you're so perceptive! I did rush myself in the video to find answers. I wanted to write about that before posting but forgot.
If you find the time to let me know more of your thoughts, I'd be very grateful.