Does "tough love" motivation work on you?

[Animal]

@squark

”Put it this way: "You can do it, you're strong enough, I believe in you and know that you can do better, you can overcome this. Excuses aren't doing you any favors, tackle it, I believe you can accomplish it when you put the work in. The only thing stopping you is yourself. Rise above it, meet the challenge." VS "You useless lazy moron, my grandma could walk circles around you. You don't deserve to lick my boots until you prove that you have what it takes. Look at how worthless you are." Guess which one is tough love and which one is abuse?

One empowers and encourages the strength you know exists in a person -- the other breaks them down and tells them they have to prove themselves to you, that you are the judge of their worth. Anyone telling you they are going to judge your worth based on what you give them is taking advantage of you.”

In both cases, you’re judging their worth. The only difference is that one form is positive and the other negative.

Also if someone literally directly told you they’d be judging your worth, well they’d probably be a bit nutty, to the point where they probably wouldn’t be lucid enough to want to take advantage of you or ever do it very effectively. But it’s implied that anybody in a superior position (or even not; anybody really) can potentially do it to you, even if they don’t say anything or act on it. It’s a natural consequence of being in society. It doesn’t automatically mean you’re in a situation where you’re being taken advantage of.

The issue isn't that the latter is judging you and the former isn't. It's that, in the latter example, the person is evaluating you based on what they can get out of you; that is, they only value you based on how much they can exploit you. That's the reason people are responding negatively to this tough love stuff. Tough love is only "love" if it allies with healthy impulses inside you, working for your own behalf. Even then, it has to be respectful of your own sense of agency. Otherwise, you just have a form of social coercion. That's all I was saying in that first post that you apparently found demeaning, just in more pretentious language.

[sbbds]

The issue isn't that the latter is judging you and the former isn't. It's that, in the latter example, the person is evaluating you based on what they can get out of you; that is, they only value you based on how much they can exploit you.

That could be just as well the case with the former example. Seems naive to think otherwise.

Otherwise, you just have a form of social coercion.

So could saccharine love. The examples didn’t make that clear at all lol.

That's all I was saying in that first post that you apparently found demeaning, just in more pretentious language.

If that’s the case then it’d have to not only be pretentious but very roundabout.

[Memento Mori]

The issue isn't that the latter is judging you and the former isn't. It's that, in the latter example, the person is evaluating you based on what they can get out of you; that is, they only value you based on how much they can exploit you. That's the reason people are responding negatively to this tough love stuff. Tough love is only "love" if it allies with healthy impulses inside you, working for your own behalf. Even then, it has to be respectful of your own sense of agency. Otherwise, you just have a form of social coercion. That's all I was saying in that first post that you apparently found demeaning, just in more pretentious language.

I appreciate this distinction, given that this thread is inquiring into "Tough Love" I understand where You're coming from. I would also argue that not all valuable lessons in life are presented benevolently. Often in life, we can grow too comfortable. For some, having their mettle tested is productive, and even for those who find it grating, there can be a reordering of priority and focus. It is true that hot iron can bend to the point of breakage, but cold, unused iron rusts. A ripple is a ripple, and even those making waves can teach us important lessons. Our attitude is as important to our own benefit as that which is seen as done onto us. Growth and clarity sometimes comes from the most unexpected of places.

[squark]

I appreciate this distinction, given that this thread is inquiring into "Tough Love" I understand where You're coming from. I would also argue that not all valuable lessons in life are presented benevolently. Often in life, we can grow too comfortable. For some, having their mettle tested is productive, and even for those who find it grating, there can be a reordering of priority and focus. It is true that hot iron can bend to the point of breakage, but cold, unused iron rusts. A ripple is a ripple, and even those making waves can teach us important lessons. Our attitude is as important to our own benefit as that which is seen as done onto us. Growth and clarity sometimes comes from the most unexpected of places.

Yes, agreed. In my opinion life is about overcoming obstacles, meeting the challenges before you and conquering them. And there's a lot of stuff that is hard, it's not all light and fluffy. Nor is it always presented in a nice package.

What was that story - it was a story told in a movie or something about the little bird that was cold and yelling, and a cow came by and pooped on it, making it all warm and saving it's life, then a coyote came by, pulled it out of the shit and ate it. With the moral being that not everyone who shits on you is your enemy, or trying to hurt you, and not everyone who pulls you out of the shit is your friend. Anyway, that's true too, that sometimes what looks like help isn't, and what looks like harm isn't. And also sometimes people are trying to toughen you up for your own good. However. . . I don't think that's what was going on in the clip. IMO.

An example from my own life. . . someone close to me was in an accident, badly hurt and I was taking care of them as they recovered. At first they actually needed me to do everything for them, from cutting their food to wiping their ass, they physically couldn't do it themselves. But, as they grew stronger I made them do more and more things on their own. They complained at me, sometimes begging me to do it, but I knew they could do it for themselves, and I told them so, refusing to do for them what they could do themselves. And they did. Everything I thought they could do, they were able to do without my help, they just needed the push to do it. One time in public I made them open a door for themselves and go through it. When I wouldn't do it, they started begging passersby to help them, until some "kind" person gave in. It wasn't kind. It was holding them back. And sometimes helping someone is just holding them back. But, to those people walking by, I'm sure I looked like some kind of cruel abuser, and man, the looks I got. . . that was sometimes hard to take, their eyes saying, "You horrible woman abusing that poor helpless handicapped person" the accusation in their glares. So yeah, sometimes too you have to look like the bad guy to do the most good. And they did want to be able to do these things themselves - it wasn't like I was trying to make them do something they didn't ultimately want anyway.

But I've never found it necessary or desirable to tell anyone they were worthless scum, and I don't think that's how you help a person find their own strength. Instead, that's how you make a person dependent on you. Tell them they have to earn their worth from you, and you create someone willing to do anything to please you, or angry enough to "prove you wrong" that they'll do whatever you want in order to dig their way out of that deficit you've created. Tell them they're strong enough without you, and you give them independence and the ability to find strength within themselves they may not have known they had.

[Memento Mori]

Thank You for sharing that very personal and illustrative story with us, @squark . I appreciate both Your patience with them, as well as Your methods. You were right to endure their glares, as Yours was the lasting lesson.