You’re answering a question purely hypothetically then, which is meaningless.Originally Posted by squark
If you’ve experienced actual abuse, you have a better chance of differentiating real abuse from non abuse. Your perspective being true means that victims of abuse will always be victims trapped in the same abuse mentality. That’s a pretty unfortunate, and also ironically, almost abusively anti-humanistic way of thinking of the world.
One experience can be translated to another, parallels can be drawn. Experience of all kinds teaches. I have a wide pool of experience to draw from, so choosing not to work for assholes when given the "opportunity" to do so says nothing in regard to whether I have interacted with people acting like this or what I think of those sorts. You're focusing too narrowly and not seeing the broader trend.
Observation of others in similar kinds of circumstances is also not without value if one has any degree of empathy. And no, what I'm saying does not mean that everyone is inevitably trapped, don't be ridiculous. It does however draw on the statistical fact that it is those who are reached out to, who are supported by others outside an abusive environment who have the greatest chance of getting free. And it reflects the psychology present in many of those on the inside . . . a mindset like the rat who not knowing when or if it will be shocked refuses to leave an open cage.
That may be the case but it’s unconvincing to me that the person who conflates people with trapped rats is going to be the same one helping them out.
Oh and the same one advocating against tough love. See the broader trend!
You're really not paying attention. I agree with the way thehotelambush defined tough love - you know, with actual care involved. Some guy trying to milk more money out of his employees doesn't qualify imo.
Put it this way: "You can do it, you're strong enough, I believe in you and know that you can do better, you can overcome this. Excuses aren't doing you any favors, tackle it, I believe you can accomplish it when you put the work in. The only thing stopping you is yourself. Rise above it, meet the challenge." VS "You useless lazy moron, my grandma could walk circles around you. You don't deserve to lick my boots until you prove that you have what it takes. Look at how worthless you are." Guess which one is tough love and which one is abuse?
One empowers and encourages the strength you know exists in a person -- the other breaks them down and tells them they have to prove themselves to you, that you are the judge of their worth. Anyone telling you they are going to judge your worth based on what you give them is taking advantage of you.
Is this the kind of comment from someone wanting to give and advocating careful love, or is it really ironically a shrouded form of abuse?
What. Why?Anyone telling you they are going to judge your worth based on what you give them is taking advantage of you.
@squark
”Put it this way: "You can do it, you're strong enough, I believe in you and know that you can do better, you can overcome this. Excuses aren't doing you any favors, tackle it, I believe you can accomplish it when you put the work in. The only thing stopping you is yourself. Rise above it, meet the challenge." VS "You useless lazy moron, my grandma could walk circles around you. You don't deserve to lick my boots until you prove that you have what it takes. Look at how worthless you are." Guess which one is tough love and which one is abuse?
One empowers and encourages the strength you know exists in a person -- the other breaks them down and tells them they have to prove themselves to you, that you are the judge of their worth. Anyone telling you they are going to judge your worth based on what you give them is taking advantage of you.”
In both cases, you’re judging their worth. The only difference is that one form is positive and the other negative.
Also if someone literally directly told you they’d be judging your worth, well they’d probably be a bit nutty, to the point where they probably wouldn’t be lucid enough to want to take advantage of you or ever do it very effectively. But it’s implied that anybody in a superior position (or even not; anybody really) can potentially do it to you, even if they don’t say anything or act on it. It’s a natural consequence of being in society. It doesn’t automatically mean you’re in a situation where you’re being taken advantage of.
The issue isn't that the latter is judging you and the former isn't. It's that, in the latter example, the person is evaluating you based on what they can get out of you; that is, they only value you based on how much they can exploit you. That's the reason people are responding negatively to this tough love stuff. Tough love is only "love" if it allies with healthy impulses inside you, working for your own behalf. Even then, it has to be respectful of your own sense of agency. Otherwise, you just have a form of social coercion. That's all I was saying in that first post that you apparently found demeaning, just in more pretentious language.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
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