Since the Introverted Dual is so Often Passed Over by the Extraverted Dual~

[Xaiviay]

~How does the introvert attract the attention/admiration of their dual?

However, nature has played a little trick on us. It is difficult to notice your Dual partner among all the other types and even easier to pass them by. Usually during first contact extroverts think about their introvert Dual as ordinary and simple, therefore not deserving their personal attention. In return introverts consider theirextrovert Dual to be too good for them and therefore unattainable.

Taken from here

I'm sure the answer to this question will depend on each dyad, but please share whatever ideas you have, type-related or not.

I've definitely felt like ILEs were 'too good for me' in the past, sort of like the kind of people I admire deep down inside, those clever and open-minded people who were unafraid to try things just for the sake of it. Shamelessly 'weird', quirky, and yes even impishly childlike (that's how I thought of them before Socionics) people that were simultaneously intelligent and objective. I wouldn't even dare to consider the possibility of a relationship with one. And to be honest, the majority of the boys I could think of who were like that definitely passed me by without a thought.

To find out that they were my dual was so encouraging, it was like having the sun burst through the clouds!! LOL. But then, I still worry if I'll be able to get past that bias against the introverted dual.

Any experiences and thoughts are welcome. Introverts, discuss what's worked for you. Extraverts, feel free to share what you would like to see your introverted dual do to catch your eye. Discuss~

[DirectorAbbie]

No, no, I love introverts. I like how they don't talk too much.

EIIs have tended to show up around me. Maybe because I talk to anyone, so I make that first contact, then they liked the contact so they come back.
And I'd love to have a collection of EIIs. Just put the EIIs in my basket. Happy basket of duals. Let them out to play, but not to run away.

Objectively, yeah, I am too good for them. I can do a lot of useful things that they're just clueless about. Yet then there's something subtle they can do that others can't. And they often have a wit of their own.

To catch my eye, an EII just needs to hang out with me. Not directly, but just happen to be in the same area as me. Like the library, or a classroom, or a comment section. And we will have an interaction. Then they should keep it going. Do the conversation thing.

[Lord Pixel]

Objectively, yeah, I am too good for them. I can do a lot of useful things that they're just clueless about. Yet then there's something subtle they can do that others can't. And they often have a wit of their own.

Translation : " Here's all the things I can do, and then there's your....thing.....that you do....what do you do again?


As far as any success attracting the extroverted dual, I just used my creative function Ne and it works out.

[Aramas]

Translation : " Here's all the things I can do, and then there's your....thing.....that you do....what do you do again?


As far as any success attracting the extroverted dual, I just used my creative function Ne and it works out.

The prime skill of the EII: the cosmic accident (and the comic accident). Everything was going as planned, and then...Ne!

[Lord Pixel]

The prime skill of the EII: the cosmic accident (and the comic accident). Everything was going as planned, and then...Ne!

I don't know what you mean but.......thanks?

[Aramas]

I don't know what you mean but.......thanks?

It means EIIs are great at breaking situational continuity. Ne is all about accidents. Unconscious intent and belief. It works through forgetfulness and seeming mistakes.

Woops. Hey, look what I found!

Unconsciously, they are the best predictors of the future. So they don't really have to think about it.

[Adam Strange]

My ESI duals should figure out how to say "Yes" once in a while.

[Delilah]

My ESI duals should figure out how to say "Yes" once in a while.

Careful, I knew a LIE who was - maybe subconsciously - looking for a girl who has keen to say "no" and ended up with an alpha SF who would say "no" often because of her upbringing/NTR stuff.

[1gneous1]

Careful, I knew a LIE who was - maybe subconsciously - looking for a girl who has keen to say "no" and ended up with an alpha SF who would say "no" often because of her upbringing/NTR stuff.

Well, I can testify to that with my personal experience... dated an alpha SF E6w7 (I am 7w8) probably ESE and I have to say, we just have very different life philosophies. Forget the relentless Fe (emotionally pressuring me to adopt her values) and ignoring Fi (insulting without restraint, which has led to several fallouts) with pretty much no Ni (inability to predict what would happen if she does or says something). I bet I was as much of a pain to her as well: not being there on holidays, forgetting birthdays, being unromantic, eating like a peasant, the list goes on. I think we were mistakenly drawn to each other

[Lord Pixel]

Well, I can testify to that with my personal experience... dated an alpha SF E6w7 (I am 7w8) probably ESE and I have to say, we just have very different life philosophies. Forget the relentless Fe (emotionally pressuring me to adopt her values) and ignoring Fi (insulting without restraint, which has led to several fallouts) with pretty much no Ni (inability to predict what would happen if she does or says something). I bet I was as much of a pain to her as well: not being there on holidays, forgetting birthdays, being unromantic, eating like a peasant, the list goes on. I think we were mistakenly drawn to each other

Oh that's what that is. EIE friend makes sense to me now.

[1gneous1]

Oh that's what that is. EIE friend makes sense to me now.

Yep, that is why EIEs are called Hamlet, advocates of ideologies and values with pretty vulnerable souls and bodies TBH. Know a lot of them from acting.

[Xaiviay]

My ESI duals should figure out how to say "Yes" once in a while.

The time will come.

On a side note, the ESI I've lived with says 'no' to literally 99% of what you tell her. Lol. "Do you want a drink?" No. "Do you want me to cook for you?" No. "Is there anything I can do for you?" No.

But then if you actually start doing something for her without asking, she's usually really grateful and happy about it. Selfless ESI just can't bring herself to verbally accept service. Adam, maybe you just need to just butt in and help them with the Te in their life xD

[Aramas]

My ESI duals should figure out how to say "Yes" once in a while.

The maybe of the ESI is the yes

[Delilah]

@Xaiviay i actually think that quote you posted might relate more to Irrational types. As an example I know a female IEE-NE who is constantly bragging and talks a lot. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could get a word in with her. It seems she doesn't allow much room for other people to express themselves. In this context, I can see how someone like her might pass over her dual as she might be expecting that everyone will relate to people in the way that she does.

I suspect that Rational types are a bit different, less spontaneous so maybe they adjust their attitude to someone before an interaction has even started.

[Xaiviay]

@Xaiviay i actually think that quote you posted might relate more to Irrational types. As an example I know a female IEE-NE who is constantly bragging and talks a lot. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could get a word in with her. It seems she doesn't allow much room for other people to express themselves. In this context, I can see how someone like her might pass over her dual as she might be expecting that everyone will relate to people in the way that she does.

I suspect that Rational types are a bit different, less spontaneous so maybe they adjust their attitude to someone before an interaction has even started.

Good feedback @Delilah, that may be true.

In that case, calling all the irrationals! Help this thread out

[Tallmo]

Duals find each other all the time. Dont think too much about socionics or "how to behave" when being with a dual.

[Exodus]

Duals find each other all the time. Dont think too much about socionics or "how to behave" when being with a dual.

This basically. Instead of trying to attract certain types, focus on expressing yourself in a way that is relevant to and benefits others.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140419...tice/ego.shtml

Learning general social skills can't hurt either. But that's not about "finding a dual" really.

[Olimpia]

This basically. Instead of trying to attract certain types, focus on expressing yourself in a way that is relevant to and benefits others.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140419...tice/ego.shtml

Learning general social skills can't hurt either. But that's not about "finding a dual" really.

Great article, thanks for sharing. It puts into words my own experience.

I used to feel like my "gifts" or strengths weren't valued, simply because I was around people who didn't care for my strengths for most of my life.

It's liberating to finally interact and be with people who appreciate your Ego functions.

[Xaiviay]

This basically. Instead of trying to attract certain types, focus on expressing yourself in a way that is relevant to and benefits others.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140419...tice/ego.shtml

Learning general social skills can't hurt either. But that's not about "finding a dual" really.

This is awesome, thank you. That article is pretty spot on; down to earth and realistic advice.

[Tallmo]

This basically. Instead of trying to attract certain types, focus on expressing yourself in a way that is relevant to and benefits others.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140419...tice/ego.shtml

Learning general social skills can't hurt either. But that's not about "finding a dual" really.

Glad to see that Rick's stuff is still around. I learnt a lot from his site.

[Tallmo]

Duals find each other all the time. Dont think too much about socionics or "how to behave" when being with a dual.

That being said, I know of a real life example where the SEI had to be very persistent to get the ILE into a relationship. But that probably came naturally to her (the SEI) because she had no knowledge of Socionics. They are now married.

[Xaiviay]

That being said, I know of a real life example where the SEI had to be very persistent to get the ILE into a relationship. But that probably came naturally to her (the SEI) because she had no knowledge of Socionics. They are now married.

I can do that, if necessary yayy encouragement

[waddup]

This is a problem for early 20 somethings.

Basically you just put yourself out there in whatever your environment entails. One thing will lead to the next, a chance encounter, who knows. Over thinking it is stupid. Its an age thing. You don;t get to do socionics until you are "in" socionics. Otherwise it will be like astrology and you will just feel miserable and dissatisfied. How do you know the introvert is passed over by the extrovert? Because you read it in an online article, and now you will let that colour your awareness of reality before your eyes?

[Xaiviay]

This is a problem for early 20 somethings.

Basically you just put yourself out there in whatever your environment entails. One thing will lead to the next, a chance encounter, who knows. Over thinking it is stupid. Its an age thing. You don;t get to do socionics until you are "in" socionics. Otherwise it will be like astrology and you will just feel miserable and dissatisfied. How do you know the introvert is passed over by the extrovert? Because you read it in an online article, and now you will let that colour your awareness of reality before your eyes?

It's probably true that this is more of a problem with younger people, we have less experience and have more room to grow and develop, socially.

....But, to explain my point - Honestly, I've had a harder time getting close to ILEs over all other types (even my conflictors - the irony!). tbh I've never had an ILE attracted to me for my natural SEI-ness - the only one who initiated a friendship did it when I was using lots of Ti and being overly analytical (he even said "you seem like a very calculating, logical person"). When I try to talk to them, it's harder to interest them than any other type. They don't seem to consciously value Fe or Si, even though I've really tried to address their concerns and needs with it. It actually has been my experience that ILEs pass over SEIs.

I'm not saying this is what always happens, in fact I really hope this is not what usually happens! I'm just going off of what I've experienced, and this article happens to confirm it.

So yes, genuine advice from people who've had experience in this area, is very much appreciated.

[Exodus]

It's probably true that this is more of a problem with younger people, we have less experience and have more room to grow and develop, socially.

....But, to explain my point - Honestly, I've had a harder time getting close to ILEs over all other types (even my conflictors - the irony!). tbh I've never had an ILE attracted to me for my natural SEI-ness - the only one who initiated a friendship did it when I was using lots of Ti and being overly analytical (he even said "you seem like a very calculating, logical person"). When I try to talk to them, it's harder to interest them than any other type. They don't seem to consciously value Fe or Si, even though I've really tried to address their concerns and needs with it. It actually has been my experience that ILEs pass over SEIs.

I'm not saying this is what always happens, in fact I really hope this is not what usually happens! I'm just going off of what I've experienced, and this article happens to confirm it.

So yes, genuine advice from people who've had experience in this area, is very much appreciated.

I had an ILE friend who told me he was looking for a mate who would be just as intellectually curious as him. If he was looking for anything resembling Si/Fe he didn't mention it.

This is what people mean by "dualization" - people are sometimes too dumb to realize that they need whatever their dual is offering. They think they want someone just like them.

[Xaiviay]

I had an ILE friend who told me he was looking for a mate who would be just as intellectually curious as him. If he was looking for anything resembling Si/Fe he didn't mention it.

This is what people mean by "dualization" - people are sometimes too dumb to realize that they need whatever their dual is offering. They think they want someone just like them.

People who are intellectually curious have far better relationships with other people who are also intellectually curious than they do with those who are not. So, if that was his criteria, he wasn't dumb at all.

SEIs are prone to being intellectually curious, we're TI HA and Ne suggestive. But we're not as confident in this area. The ILEs I've talked with helped encourage this out of me though. I completely get why ILEs want someone more like themselves; I tend to want someone with SEI qualities, too. Also, I do work on my own intuition and thinking, it's important to me. But I don't want to have to be an ILE carbon copy to be 'enough' for them. It'd be really nice to be appreciated for my Si caregiving and my Fe... I've experienced lots of duality chemistry where the ILE was helping me out with his ego functions, but not so much where he appreciated mine...One of them seemed to reach for my Fe, but no Si-seeking, yet.

It's probably true what thehotelambush said about how lots of people don't get that opposite functional strengths could be good for them. I guess rn, I'm just trying not to be too discouraged by this, and by the trend of my past experiences with this type, the Myers Briggs forums full of ENTPs talking about how they wouldn't date a 'boring, small-minded, overly sensitive SF' (just go read other forums, it's everywhere), and stuff like the article I quoted in the OP.

The article thehotelambush quoted, plus @Tallmo's and @Troll Nr 007's advice pretty much covers what would come most naturally to me to do, anyways, which seems like a good sign. So I am encouraged by this, thank you all

[Exodus]

People who are intellectually curious have far better relationships with other people who are also intellectually curious than they do with those who are not. So, if that was his criteria, he wasn't dumb at all.

It was more than being intellectually curious though - he meant that she should already have the broad kind of knowledge that comes from actually acting on Ne rather than just valuing it (the distinction @Xaiviay makes above). I thought this was clear from the context but anyhow...

Maybe that's just the thing - it's hard to distinguish between someone valuing something and being good at it, it's a counterintuitive idea.

[Exodus]

Curiosity has nothing to do with Ne. Everyone on this forum has some intellectual curiosity or they wouldn't have sought this forum out to explore their interests and learn. It's also not type-related the degree to which people do this.

Some Ne leads have a very shallow knowledge base and are not intellectually curious at all in fact, throwing out ideas but not following any of them. Seeing alternatives, and what is not currently present does not mean you question or explore anything to any depth. Some Ne leads are very intellectually curious, and others are not. Compare for instance SlackerMom with anndelise or Kim - each IEE has in my opinion a different level of curiosity and interest in various subjects and impetus to act on that interest, but each one is Ne lead.

Intellectual curiosity is one facet of "Openness to Experience" and even a cursory look at the research done on this trait in relationships and marital satisfaction will result in a lot of material showing that those who are open are much happier with others who are open, and those who are closed happier with others like them. Especially over the long-term.

"Curiosity has nothing to do with Ne."

I can't agree with this at all. Ne is more than merely "seeing" what is not present, it's the impetus to go out and actually explore it. This doesn't need to be "intellectual" per se - that's merely one manifestation of it, but it is characteristic even if most Ne leads don't manifest it. It's the same as saying that performance art is characteristically Fe even if most Fe leading types aren't performance artists.

And, of course Ni is also involved in the "depth" aspect of intellectualism and people have plenty of different motivations for coming to this forum. But we're getting into the realm of pedantry here, what I've said should be clear.

[The Reality Denialist]

There are things in my life that makes me bit perplexed about the reality.

My sensing ethics qualities are low. Just because a person shows some qualities of analytical nature and drive for something (quite mental)
and is also complete looney does not mean it is even in every possible way otherwise.

Look up Filatova's ILE portrait. Like it is easier to be completely rootless than do something about it yourself if main drive tells us so.

[Muddy]

If you are feeling "passed over" often by people you like you probably got a lot of social developing to do. I felt that way a lot when my self-esteem hit rock bottom in school when my life was really shitty and I felt dissatisfied with myself for various reasons. Now that actually developed some level of social skills and am less shut-off then I used to be I don't feel passed over by people anymore unless they are people I wouldn't want to be around with anyway.

[Ave]

I agree with @Delilah this is more the case with irrational dyads. EP types are the types that like to brag and come off as "winners" and "cool".

Personally, I often find ESIs I meet IRL attractive. The fact they create psychological distance with strangers all the while having obvious social skills with people they are close to creates the impression of someone who is hard to get. It depends on the ESI though, some are more open than others. Subtypes can play a role too. subtype is less reserved. subtype appears stangely mysterious.

[The Reality Denialist]

Just take over the situation. Arrange something. They are usually quite available people if the schedule permits (always curios). Then suddenly at some point tables will turn when something is well established. If one type is unsure of establishing sustainable relations it is ILE.

[Xaiviay]

Just take over the situation. Arrange something. They are usually quite available people if the schedule permits (always curios). Then suddenly at some point tables will turn when something is well established. If one type is unsure of establishing sustainable relations it is ILE.

Thanks so much, Troll You're probably the best person to advise me on this matter. I'll try just taking over then, as long as he seems open to it

[Rebelondeck]

What people want seems to take precedence over what might be good for them, so relating this tendency to introverted-versus-extroverted is a real stretch; fast-food has a bigger draw than healthy cooking even among most introverts. The real hurdle to overcome is being able to actually see beyond one's own ego; with most people, this does improve with age but by that time, a lot of water has passed under the bridge. Also there's the old adage that blood flows directly from the brain to the genitals thus reducing intelligence at critical times, which is likely a more plausible explanation than the one initially quoted......

a.k.a. I/O

[Aramas]

Duality only works naturally/unconsciously. You can learn all you want about Socionics, but you can't really do it. If you want a better life, just focus on being who you really are.

[silke]

... It actually has been my experience that ILEs pass over SEIs.

I'm not saying this is what always happens, in fact I really hope this is not what usually happens! I'm just going off of what I've experienced, and this article happens to confirm it.

Has been my impression as well. I used to play a multiplayer game that was based in science fiction and quite competitive, so it was overrun by male ILEs. The group I played with for was large, close to 200 players, so besides the the NT members we did have a few SEIs in that mix. In retrospect, I did get the impression that the ILEs would ignore the few SEIs that we had. Like it was a non-interaction between them. Their conversations didn't go much past some immediate need or small talk. At the same time the ILEs would show a lot more interest in the EIIs and IEIs and even LSEs we had in this group. It seems like many ILEs in their 20s will pursue EII, ILI, IEI, and even SLI and LSE girls and overlook the SEIs. They say that they are looking for an "intelligent" partner to match themselves, and girls of logical and/or intuitive types are most likely to impress them that way.

I've also been seeing a lot of ILE male - LSE female couples around. While the LSE woman is reluctant and unsure about having serious relations with an ILE, as the ILE doesn't 'build' a relationship the way Fi types accomplish this, the ILE is unabashed by the LSE's cold-ish treatment, so he sticks around and tries to impress her by his Ne antics, and eventually the LSE girl figures that she needs someone to take care of and gets into a relationship with the ILE.

the only one who initiated a friendship did it when I was using lots of Ti and being overly analytical (he even said "you seem like a very calculating, logical person")

That's one way to draw a dual's attention to yourself - is to temporarily act like them and mirror their behavior. A lot of people get stuck on the notion that their ideal match is someone who is like them, and while duals are alike in many ways they don't immediately show this as the dual-seeking functions are subconscious. So once you show this, you'll get their attention.

Duality is also sharply felt when one of the duals leaves, gets fired, or suddenly goes missing. This is when the other dual might get those subconscious feelings rise up to conscious recognition of them, so that they become a lot more aware of the connection that was there that they used to take for granted.

Another scenario described by Gulenko is when duals help each other out in times of trouble, which brings their unrealized strong points to the forefront in friendship or a relationship. This one also works, but honestly it is difficult to actuate in Western societies that place so much emphasis on individualism, individual achievement, and independence.

[Xaiviay]

Has been my impression as well. I used to play a multiplayer game that was based in science fiction and quite competitive, so it was overrun by male ILEs. The group I played with for was large, close to 200 players, so besides the the NT members we did have a few SEIs in that mix. In retrospect, I did get the impression that the ILEs would ignore the few SEIs that we had. Like it was a non-interaction between them. Their conversations didn't go much past some immediate need or small talk. At the same time the ILEs would show a lot more interest in the EIIs and IEIs and even LSEs we had in this group. It seems like many ILEs in their 20s will pursue EII, ILI, IEI, and even SLI and LSE girls and overlook the SEIs. They say that they are looking for an "intelligent" partner to match themselves, and girls of logical and/or intuitive types are most likely to impress them that way.

Geez, this has also been the impression I get. It sucks for SEIs, but...hey thanks for your feedback, anyways.

That's one way to draw a dual's attention to yourself - is to temporarily act like them and mirror their behavior. A lot of people get stuck on the notion that their ideal match is someone who is like them, and while duals are alike in many ways they don't immediately show this as the dual-seeking functions are subconscious. So once you show this, you'll get their attention.

Yeah that's one decent strategy, if it works out where your dual ends up seeing you for your natural personality and valuing you for it, before too long.

But atm, if I have to act more like an ILE than is healthy for me, in order to get my dual's attention, I'm about ready to say "forget it". I know an IEI-SLE couple that formed this way, with the IEI acting all tough and competitive. Basically stroking the SLE's ego with a mirror image of himself all the time. I wonder how draining it must've been for her. The SLE was always ranting about how he loved strong, competitive, logically intelligent, competent women. Like the traditional female gender role was beneath him, and he wanted to see someone who embodied the same qualities he prized in himself instead. It seemed narcissitic, and I actually felt bad for her.

But yeah personally, I don't want to end up in a relationship like that. I've already learned that a big part of me really desires a partner with NT talents--despite the humbling it took to become self-aware in that area. I've also learned to use intuition and thinking to such a degree that I get mistaken for an NT on occasion - I explore new theories and possibilities, and analyze systems that interest me, on my own. I'm not that bad at Ne/Ti. It's good to develop that part of your type, both for connecting better with your dual, and for self-actualization. I'd rather have an ILE who has already gone through the same humbling process, and who has learned to use Si and Fe decently, or at least wants to. I don't want to set the precedence that we're both Ne and Ti, while shoving SF things under the rug

[silke]

But atm, if I have to act more like an ILE than is healthy for me, in order to get my dual's attention, I'm about ready to say "forget it". I know an IEI-SLE couple that formed this way, with the IEI acting all tough and competitive. Basically stroking the SLE's ego with a mirror image of himself all the time. I wonder how draining it must've been for her. The SLE was always ranting about how he loved strong, competitive, logically intelligent, competent women. Like the traditional female gender role was beneath him, and he wanted to see someone who embodied the same qualities he prized in himself instead. It seemed narcissitic, and I actually felt bad for her.

But yeah personally, I don't want to end up in a relationship like that. I've already learned that a big part of me really desires a partner with NT talents--despite the humbling it took to become self-aware in that area. I've also learned to use intuition and thinking to such a degree that I get mistaken for an NT on occasion - I explore new theories and possibilities, and analyze systems that interest me, on my own. I'm not that bad at Ne/Ti. It's good to develop that part of your type, both for connecting better with your dual, and for self-actualization. I'd rather have an ILE who has already gone through the same humbling process, and who has learned to use Si and Fe decently, or at least wants to. I don't want to set the precedence that we're both Ne and Ti, while shoving SF things under the rug

Ugh. You have completely misunderstood what I was saying. What I wrote did not imply that you have to act like an ILE for the duration of your relationship and wear yourself out by acting like another type. This is a leap of imagination that you took entirely out of your own, and it landed into some kind of absurdity. It's a method for drawing the attention of your dual for a short while, which in turn happens naturally from the IEs of the Super-Id block when you find a compatible dual.

I would also question the typings in the IEI-SLE dual pair you're describing. It doesn't match my experience with my duals and sounds nothing like any of the IEI-SLE couples that I've seen. The IEI does not overtly compete with the SLE for rather obvious reasons, and if those were the conclusions that you have drawn, it shows that you really didn't understand the dynamic there.

[Xaiviay]

Ugh. You have completely misunderstood what I was saying. What I wrote did not imply that you have to act like an ILE for the duration of your relationship and wear yourself out by acting like another type. This is a leap of imagination that you took entirely out of your own, and it landed into some kind of absurdity. It's a method for drawing the attention of your dual for a short while, which in turn happens naturally from the IEs of the Super-Id block when you find a compatible dual.

It seems to me like you have misread me. Yes, I got your original meaning. I just don't like using that tactic personally, that's all I was getting at. I am a little frustrated right now by the way people tend to overlook I-p temperaments, and I may have seemed like I was directing that frustration at you instead. I apologize, if this is the case.

[silke]

It seems to me like you have misread me. Yes, I got your original meaning. I just don't like using that tactic personally, that's all I was getting at. I am a little frustrated right now by the way people tend to overlook I-p temperaments, and I may have seemed like I was directing that frustration at you instead. I apologize, if this is the case.

You did not get my "original meaning" which is why I posted that you have completely misunderstood what I have said. And, apparently, you didn't even care to understand.

Which you know, at this point your self-centered attitude is not making it worthwhile to respond to your posts.

I feel like I've made a mistake in friending you and I have unfriended you from my account on this site.

You're free to direct your frustration elsewhere.